First off... lvg!!! Congrats! You made it on the decklist site! Thanks for repping us man!
Second off, lets get to business and evaluate these lists. 64th and up are all 12-2 or up lists, so as far as I'm concerned, they are all valid of equal praise, and none are "strictly better" BUT! If 6/7 of them have something that one doesnt, thats an over all trend that should be looked into. Heres what I think are worth talking about:
Only 2/7 had rally or devil in their decks.
4/7 had 20 lands, and 3/7 had 21
0 Shriekhorns. ALL voices.
6/7 run lightning axe main
All run Conflags and loams but at conflicting amounts.
5/7 Run collective brutality in the 75
4/7 Run decay in the side.
4/7 Run 1 haunted dead
1/7 uses brdige/ Gar, and only at a 2/3 split.
7/7 Uses fetches
Alright. Lets break these points down. First, looks like pump isnt quite as effective as conflaging is, as must people are just opting to not run it. I wouldnt fully rule it out as 2/7 is still enough to keep the door open on tossing it out of the ring. Second, seems like no one still agrees if 20/21 land is correct. I'm sure well need alot more hive mind time with this, as it took big zoo around a full year to figure out 22 is the correct number, not 21.
Third Shriekhorns... 0 used. Voice used? 7/7. Sells me, back on voice train. Which Ive been already maybe feeling, since the need to have more dredge power seems bigger to me recently. Fourth, 6/7 Axes show up in the Main deck, and the one that isnt main is in their side. I think this is also a hard sell. Cant deny that most decks running 1 axe main... expect that one running freakin 3. I think Axe with Collected is probably a good mix.
5th point, Looks like were all still divided on the amount of conflags and loams. There is 3/3 splits, 2/3 splits, 3/2 splits and 4/3 splits. I think this will also take some time to figure out, and I'm still in the 3/2 split myself. Its super clear though everyone wants 2 or more copies of both, and that conflag is probably better than bridge, since the 9th point shows a complete flip of the SCG results, and even the only deck running bridge runs a 2/2 split. I tend to agree, if you cant abuse it reliably, use "better" cards you can. WHen they mess up and add a card that says "sac a creature: return me from grave", Call me and I'll text bridge about the dredge party.
point number 6 and 7 seem like a clear trend to me. Collected and decay answer most of the threats we need to take care of: Sooze, Bridge, Chalice, Cage, RiP, Anger, combo peices that are faster than us, sucide zoo's creatures and pumps, infecters and pumps, rdw. It Doesnt kill leyline or Kalatas, but I think the nudge of how universally useful it is is worth it.
4/7 isnt enough to call it but it seems like if you run haunted dead, run 1. I has its uses, but you'll use it once and be winning in those uses.
Lastly, I think this ends the fetches debate. ALL OF THE USED IT. 6/7 used Copperline Gorge, so theres that as well, and only one used a rainbow land. The fact that SCG lists used them, and then time passed and 7 people who placed ALL agreed that fetches were better MEANS something. Still not a ton of swamps or forests in the main though.
So I went to a modern PPTQ today (27 people). Went 2-2-1. An alright result for never having played the deck before this. It's a pretty standard all in dredge deck.
Round one I played against esper control. He'd played against dredge just the other day so he was well versed with my deck.
Game one I got off to a good start with Neonate and GGT. Not much to say, great start and I won easily.
Game two he countered, slowplayed and stalled like hell... I made a few misplays as well. Might have won if I had played better. Oh well.
Game three we went to time. I'd have won otherwise.
Round two was against another kind of esper control, More of a homebrew with flicker creatures.
Game one i lost after a longer struggle back and forth.
Game two I won after turn one cage, turn six rest in peace. The game went long and I had started hardcasting my creatures. Luckily I got a 6/6 GGT before Rest in Peace removed the grave. My saving grace? He only got to two lands that game.
Game three I lost after keeping a bad hand. So bad I had to hardcast my creatures. Lost quite bad that game, lol.
Round three I was up against Villainous Wealth Tron homebrew. Both games my deck worked as intended, he didn't have a chance. He boarded in four Tormord's Crypt which i took care of with my sideboard cards (2 Ghost Quarter and 3 Ancient Grudge, them I simply added to make a 65 cards deck).
Round four was against GU infect. I won game one with a slower hand since he drew no infect creatures and had to attack with his Noble Hierarch.
Game two and three he won with his Thing in the Ice, hitting for 17/19 damage. He later told me that he boarded out his tiny infect dudes and took in thing, making my Darkblast from side a very bad move (although Lightning Axe was great).
Round 5 I met CoCo elves. Lost first game due to his great start with mana elf T1, T2 Nykthos + Archdruid, T3 two dorks + Chord into Scavenging Ooze with mana to spend on chomping down on my Dredgers. At that time I only had 2-3 creatures out. Not much of a competition then.
Game two I boarded in Collective Brutality, Lightning Axe and Darkblast. Lightning Axe did what I wanted, killing his dorks and starting up my engine while punishing him for keeping a one lander hand (with Rest in Peace in it. Two dorks, turn five or so I won by dredging loads, racing that land of his.
Game three was similar to game two, he just didn't get his Rest in Peace until turn 4-5. By then it was too late 'caus I kept killing his dorks (and he kept blocking my Bloodghasts with 1/1's).
All in all, I love the decks constant decision making and explosiveness. The only downside is the fact that we need our opening hand to be good in order to have a good game. Lots of cards are totally dead in the graveyard (Insolent Neonate, Tormenting Voice, Collective Brutality, Lightning Axe, Nature's Claim).
Faithless Looting is the best (engine) card there is in this deck in my opinion, without it I don't think that it would be half as good.
21 Lands is where I think we want to be. We need at least two lands in our opener, dredging or Loam into our third.
That's all from me! I'll continue playing this deck for sure, but maybe not so many tournaments 'caus I'll be a stay-at-home dad soon. Not much time left over then. =P
Wow so much great content over the weekend! My thoughts on a couple topics:
I think fetches are better simply because they let you dodge sorcery speed answers. You can lag a fetch to dodge that Anger of the Gods or Ugin -X and that can be enough to win you the game. I've been running an all rainbow lands build (with 4 Copperline Gorge, 2 Dakmor and 2 Mountains) and it's been very nice but not required. I know the fetch base is better I just keep forgetting to make the swap when I'm at home. I honestly think the difference is minor but fetches are technically better.
On Conflagrate. I'm convinced it's like the 2nd best card in the deck. It wins me too many games either by clearing their board early or damage late (or both) for me to ever consider cutting it. The Loam package also lets us hard cast GGT if we absolutely need to (which I do on numerous occasions, much to the dismay of my opponents).
Something I have been running that these lists aren't (that I really like) has been Streetwraith. The "free" instant speed cycle has let me really speed my engine up out of the gate and unlike Tormenting Voice, it counts towards GGT and Gnaw to the Bone when it is in the yard.
I really like the 1x Haunted Dead. It's just another option to get the engine restarted if it stalls (happened to me this weekend). Unlike Conflag, it can be used multiple times as well if it isn't exiled and provides an extra 3 power onto the board (including a flying blocker at instant speed). I think all those things are good enough to warrant a 1x but not more.
Great job repping us everyone who went to a GP this weekend. I am very happy yall did well (but not as good as to throw us all under the ban mania hype train ;-)
Positives:
Can wipe the board very easily against creature matchups with a lot of larger dudes
Discard can be leveraged
CMC 3 is very doable for this effect
Negatives:
Must be in hand to work (no different than lightning axe)
Not really an enabler since it cant happen until T3
can't do damage to the face (same as lightning axe)
I could see this as a 1 of in the board for the creature matchups where you wouldn't be using conflag to the face anyway. It could suppliment the decks interaction nicely. Im sure it would have its moments just as Collective Brutality does.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I think that nahiri's wrath is just a bad conflag, It cost more mana, don't go to the face and don't work from the grave. There are very few scenarios where this is actually better than conflagrate. If i ever wanted this effect I would max the number of Confragrate before trying wrath. And considering that we don't even max the number of Conflagrates I don't think wrath has a place.
I've been running Nature's Claim in the sideboard, and had been considering a 2-2 split with Natural State, but I didn't like how Natural State couldn't hit Leyline. What i'm now considering is Destructive Revelry.
In games where our opponents are bringing in artifact and enchantment hate, we are a far less explosive deck. They either get us with a T0 Leyline which just forces us to draw for an answer or by casting Narcomoebas, Prized Amalgams and Bloodghasts both effectively slow us down several turns (or completely). With a T2 RIP our opponents may have exiled a decent portion of our payoff cards: Prized Amalgams and Bloodghasts, so even when we do find an answer to a RIP our payoffs will be reduced. In both these cases I think I'm happy to pay RG for a Destructive Revelry as hitting 2 mana isn't as difficult when we don't dredge and draw off the top.
As a 2 CMC answer for enchantment I like Golgari Charm more. The deck don't need much more artifact hate running Ancient Grudges and Charm has the extra bonus of also being good against wipes, specially anger of the gods.
I think that nahiri's wrath is just a bad conflag, It cost more mana, don't go to the face and don't work from the grave. There are very few scenarios where this is actually better than conflagrate. If i ever wanted this effect I would max the number of Confragrate before trying wrath. And considering that we don't even max the number of Conflagrates I don't think wrath has a place.
I am thinking as a 1-of SB card, not a maindeckable option I would agree.
The eldrazi matchup would be the most relevant one I think, but other decks that have a ton of good blockers would get hit by it as well.
The last tournament I played in my opponent was on forest-thinning belcher, which runs a ton of 0/4 mana dorks. Ive also wanted more destructive power when playing against zoo or naya humans as those decks have great blockers that come out fast. This is where you would want something like nahiri's wrath.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I was going to chime in here with the same thing. Turn dudes sideways. If they are blocked and killed, recur them and conflag the blockers. Ive cleared dozens of boards this way. They will block. If they dont you can conflag them for the win
I opted for 5 extra draw/discard (4 Voice/1 Inquiry) and 1 Rally the Peasants with no other flex cards to have the fastest goldfish kill game 1. I think this is a good beginner's list because you have a bit fewer options than with Darkblast and Hunted Dead. I expected a lot of Tron, Ad Nauseum and control decks so Darkblast and Lightning Axe didn't feel optimal.
I had doubts about Tormenting Voice because I saw many lists running only 2, but it seems miles ahead of Shrieking Horn and Burning Inquiry. I can't imagine running less than 4.
For the mana, I tried to switch a Blood Crypt for Overgrown Tomb. This seemed inconsequential, both choices look neutral. The important thing is that both provide the 2nd fetchable swamp.
Also switched a Mountain for Steam Vents, which was useful in a few occasions, although I could see preferring the Mountain against a lot of Path, Bloodmoon or Burn.
This manabase was very reliable albeit a bit painful. I can imagine other schemes working just as well.
For the sideboard, Ancient Grudge overperformed, I could even see cutting one as the affinity matchup is already pretty good. Decay and EE fulfill the same role of anti-hate and catch all answers. More or them felt necessary, especially on the draw when you can't Thoughtseize the opponent's Cage.
This deck is not fun. You fold to GY hate or steamroll them. Also tons of mulligans.
To my surprise, the deck is actually quite interactive and decision packed. I had a lot of games decided on the last draw. Playing around hate and controlling the board with attacks+conflagrate is very tricky.
One interesting idea I saw in this thread was to play more than 60 cards. One of the best performing decklist seems to do just that, adding a 21st land + an extra flex card.
Cutting a key card, an enabler or a dredger for a Vengeful Pharaoh or a Darkblast feels wrong, but diluting them a bit with 1-2 additional cards that works from the graveyard seems sensible. Anyone tried that?
As a 2 CMC answer for enchantment I like Golgari Charm more. The deck don't need much more artifact hate running Ancient Grudges and Charm has the extra bonus of also being good against wipes, specially anger of the gods.
Golgari charm is a card I have considered, as anti hate especially since it also functions as protection from anger of the gods (you generally don't care about other effects wipeing the board as your rebuild easily) and is also not bad against infect, elves and sometimes even affinity. In the end I think the effect is still to narrow and expensive.
I think that nahiri's wrath is just a bad conflag, It cost more mana, don't go to the face and don't work from the grave. There are very few scenarios where this is actually better than conflagrate. If i ever wanted this effect I would max the number of Confragrate before trying wrath. And considering that we don't even max the number of Conflagrates I don't think wrath has a place.
I am thinking as a 1-of SB card, not a maindeckable option I would agree.
The eldrazi matchup would be the most relevant one I think, but other decks that have a ton of good blockers would get hit by it as well.
The last tournament I played in my opponent was on forest-thinning belcher, which runs a ton of 0/4 mana dorks. Ive also wanted more destructive power when playing against zoo or naya humans as those decks have great blockers that come out fast. This is where you would want something like nahiri's wrath.
You just attack into blockers and then cast conflagarate to finish them off. I think that If you want that type of board clear Engineered explosives is the card you want. It's amazing how many boards consist of permanents of the same mana cost. If you are going to go for an expensive effect it might as well be more versatile and able to also take out hatefull permanents.
All good points. I agree. Good discussion
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I often run 61-62 card decks after game 1 I personally think I don't want to dilute my main engine at all and adding a card or two from sideboard does this less then cutting a card from the main engine. I am sure someone has the numbers but its never felt wrong adding a couple cards straight to my deck after game 1 and not removing any.
Walachh I would mulligan all those scenarios except I would keep a hand with 2 lands a tormenting voice and a dredger.
So I bought the deck recently, and I'm still figuring out how to mulligan with it.
Let's say I run the normal version with 21 lands, 3-4 tormenting voice and no gargadon or bridges. I don't know what my opponent plays, it's a game 1.
- Do you keep a hand with only one land, one enabler (faithless or neonate), one dredger (imp or troll) and 4 irrelevant cards ? (like narcomoeba, bloodghast, haunted dead, conflagrate for instance)
- Do you keep a hand with two lands + 1 enabler + 1 dredger + 3 cards, if the dredger is a dredge 3 (loam or darkblast) ? And if it's a darkmor salvage ?
- Do you keep a hand with two lands, a tormenting voice, a dredger + 3 other irrelevant cards ?
- How about a 6 cards hand on the draw with 3 lands, a faithless looting + 2 irrelevant cards (no dredger) ?
- Let's say you had terrible hands and you're down to 4 cards : an amalgam and 3 lands. Do you keep or mulligan hoping for the enabler + land + dredger 3 card hand that can still win you the game ?
Thanks for your help, I kind of want to skip the slow process of losing a ton of matches until I learn to mulligan correctly.
1 land + 1 enabler: Keep if the enabler is Looting, mulligan otherwise. Don't start dredging until you find your second land.
One dredge 3/Dakmor Salvage: Keep. If the enabler is Neonate, attack with it until you find something good to discard.
2 lands + Tormenting Voice: Keep. Not having a T1 play isn't a death sentence when your T2 play is solid.
3 lands + Looting: Keep. You're guaranteed a turn 1 and 3 play.
3 lands + Amalgam: Keep and hope to get lucky. If you keep, you already have the lands, so whether you can get back into the game or not hinges on you drawing spells. If you mulligan, well, you still have to draw spells to win, but now you're no longer guaranteed any lands, which is a disadvantage.
Basically any hand with at least 1 land and a Looting is a keep. When it comes to digging for cards, Looting is on par with Sleight of Hand.
Another thing I'd like to mention is to mulligan hands without green sources (red source + Looting is an exception, as always). Loaming back lands is pretty important, despite the common notion that Dredge can win without casting spells. You have a lot more options when you have Loam - you can bring back Bloodghasts, flashback Conflagrate or Looting, hardcast creatures, etc.
I have done this a couple of times as well in the past. You have to be careful though with your land vs spell ratio. I would also definitely not board in the 62 card with the 20 land version of the deck. Even with the 21 land version you also decrease the effectiveness of your dredgers. Probably a small margin but a margin nonetheless.
Seconded, definitely don't go above 61, maybe 62 with the 20 land version or you'll significantly increase the chances of a one land opening seven without a looting in it.
As opposed to leyline or the blue flashback spell.
Personally i have been using the blue flashback but havent hit the mirror yet.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
As opposed to leyline or the blue flashback spell.
Personally i have been using the blue flashback but havent hit the mirror yet.
If you want to beat the mirror I doubt bojuka bog is going to get it done. Think about someone playing bog against you. How often is that good enough? Same with spellbombs or a single relic? It's very easy to play around and only has a narrow window where it's good.
Memory's journey is a fine option and is instant speed, making it much more effective compared to bojuka bog. It also let's you dodge instant speed hate and surgical extraction. Probably to narrow and low impact though.
I guess leyline is the best option for the mirror and has some applications vs other graveyard decks such as company whose combo is hard to deal with.
In all honesty though the mirror just sucks and is basically a coin flip. Game 1 is about who hits the best dredgers and gets the initiative to then conflagrate the other out. Game 2,3 are about Leyline first, who has it or who has the first answer to it. If there's no leylines it comes down to how hits the best dredges again. I've toyed with the idea of cutting the leylines completly and just hope to dredge better then my opponent and keep answers for leyline in the sideboard. Would free up quite a bit of slots. And I rarely side it in otherwise (matchups where it's good are not popular)
I agree with your points here. The reason I brought it up was because I've seen them in sideboards in top lists before. Notably this recent 1st place finish at a PPTQ.
I wonder if he just didn't hit the mirror, or if he knows something we don't about bojuka bog.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
The mirror is basically Game one wins if someone has the faster dredge. If you dredge turn 1 and they cant til turn 2 you will win.
Mirror is who hits the layline or the journey. I perfer journey, since its It lets me dredge and get the win, plus it has odd ends uses against stuff like grizzlebrand or storm.
now that prized amalgam is available to the recursion arsenal its a lot easier to spam creatures, with that we have enough to convoke Endless Obedience more frequently.
I'm unfortunately not in a position to buy fetchlands right now, but I've seen lists do well without it. The list I've been playtesting (similar to mine) runs no fetches and it works out great. As for some things I understand may look strange:
I run no copies of Copperline Gorge. This is because in my testing I ended up getting screwed over by the "enters the battlefield tapped" clause more often than I'd like to have been. We run so many rainbow lands that the lack of the double colors isn't that big of a deal. Also, it makes PtE and GQ not be INCREDIBLY good against us.
The singleton Steam Vents is less of a real strategic inclusion and more of a case of "I happened to have one lying around so I might as well". I am aware that it gets worse without fetchlands though, no worries.
now that prized amalgam is available to the recursion arsenal its a lot easier to spam creatures, with that we have enough to convoke Endless Obedience more frequently.
The problem is that it needs to be in the first 7-9 cards you draw or you won't see it. Legacy Dredge casts Dread Return from GY. Our closest approximation is Unburial Rites, but hitting 4 mana is tough unless you're dredging life from the loam over grave trolls, and we are already painful at 3 colors, so hitting white for the flashback cost of rites would be hard.
And in general, we don't need either. Dredge is a tier 1 deck because we "draw" 5-6 cards per turn and can put 14+ power on the board without casting it by the end of turn 3. I think the main degenerate dredging gameplan is essentially our "combo win" and the rest of our cards should either enable or protect that gameplan, since we really don't need a wincon beyond turning our free creatures sideways and maybe casting Rally.
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Standard: BG Rock
Modern: RW Sun & Moon RBG Dredge RWG Burn
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
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Creature (25)
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
1 Haunted Dead
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
4 Conflagrate
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Rally the Peasants
Land (21)
3 Mountain
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Mana Confluence
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Thoughtseize
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Axe
1 Darkblast
1 Vengeful Pharao
1 Collective Brutality
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
1 Haunted Dead
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Conflagrate
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
3 Lightning Axe
3 Dakmor Salvage
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Nature's Claim
2 Collective Brutality
1 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
3 Life from the Loam
2 Conflagrate
1 Rally the Peasants
1 Lightning Axe
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Stomping Ground
3 Mountain
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Steam Vents
2 Lightning Axe
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Darkblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Bloodghast
3 Stinkweed Imp
2 Greater Gargadon
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Collective Brutality
2 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Lightning Axe
2 Bridge from Below
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Collective Brutality
1 Darkblast
1 Greater Gargadon
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
2 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
1 Darkblast
1 Lightning Axe
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
2 Tormenting Voice
1 Collective Brutality
1 Lightning Axe
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
3 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Lightning Axe
1 Nature's Claim
3 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Haunted Dead
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Faithless Looting
3 Tormenting Voice
1 Collective Brutality
3 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
1 Lightning Axe
Lands- 20
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Mana Confluence
1 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
1 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Nature's Claim
2 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Leyline of the Void
First off... lvg!!! Congrats! You made it on the decklist site! Thanks for repping us man!
Second off, lets get to business and evaluate these lists. 64th and up are all 12-2 or up lists, so as far as I'm concerned, they are all valid of equal praise, and none are "strictly better" BUT! If 6/7 of them have something that one doesnt, thats an over all trend that should be looked into. Heres what I think are worth talking about:
Alright. Lets break these points down. First, looks like pump isnt quite as effective as conflaging is, as must people are just opting to not run it. I wouldnt fully rule it out as 2/7 is still enough to keep the door open on tossing it out of the ring. Second, seems like no one still agrees if 20/21 land is correct. I'm sure well need alot more hive mind time with this, as it took big zoo around a full year to figure out 22 is the correct number, not 21.
Third Shriekhorns... 0 used. Voice used? 7/7. Sells me, back on voice train. Which Ive been already maybe feeling, since the need to have more dredge power seems bigger to me recently. Fourth, 6/7 Axes show up in the Main deck, and the one that isnt main is in their side. I think this is also a hard sell. Cant deny that most decks running 1 axe main... expect that one running freakin 3. I think Axe with Collected is probably a good mix.
5th point, Looks like were all still divided on the amount of conflags and loams. There is 3/3 splits, 2/3 splits, 3/2 splits and 4/3 splits. I think this will also take some time to figure out, and I'm still in the 3/2 split myself. Its super clear though everyone wants 2 or more copies of both, and that conflag is probably better than bridge, since the 9th point shows a complete flip of the SCG results, and even the only deck running bridge runs a 2/2 split. I tend to agree, if you cant abuse it reliably, use "better" cards you can. WHen they mess up and add a card that says "sac a creature: return me from grave", Call me and I'll text bridge about the dredge party.
point number 6 and 7 seem like a clear trend to me. Collected and decay answer most of the threats we need to take care of: Sooze, Bridge, Chalice, Cage, RiP, Anger, combo peices that are faster than us, sucide zoo's creatures and pumps, infecters and pumps, rdw. It Doesnt kill leyline or Kalatas, but I think the nudge of how universally useful it is is worth it.
4/7 isnt enough to call it but it seems like if you run haunted dead, run 1. I has its uses, but you'll use it once and be winning in those uses.
Lastly, I think this ends the fetches debate. ALL OF THE USED IT. 6/7 used Copperline Gorge, so theres that as well, and only one used a rainbow land. The fact that SCG lists used them, and then time passed and 7 people who placed ALL agreed that fetches were better MEANS something. Still not a ton of swamps or forests in the main though.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Haunted Dead
Instants and Sorceries (14)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Tormenting Voice
3 Conflagrate
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Mana Confluence
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Lightning Axe
3 Ancient Grudge
3 nature's claim
1 Collective Brutality
Round one I played against esper control. He'd played against dredge just the other day so he was well versed with my deck.
Game one I got off to a good start with Neonate and GGT. Not much to say, great start and I won easily.
Game two he countered, slowplayed and stalled like hell... I made a few misplays as well. Might have won if I had played better. Oh well.
Game three we went to time. I'd have won otherwise.
Round two was against another kind of esper control, More of a homebrew with flicker creatures.
Game one i lost after a longer struggle back and forth.
Game two I won after turn one cage, turn six rest in peace. The game went long and I had started hardcasting my creatures. Luckily I got a 6/6 GGT before Rest in Peace removed the grave. My saving grace? He only got to two lands that game.
Game three I lost after keeping a bad hand. So bad I had to hardcast my creatures. Lost quite bad that game, lol.
Round three I was up against Villainous Wealth Tron homebrew. Both games my deck worked as intended, he didn't have a chance. He boarded in four Tormord's Crypt which i took care of with my sideboard cards (2 Ghost Quarter and 3 Ancient Grudge, them I simply added to make a 65 cards deck).
Round four was against GU infect. I won game one with a slower hand since he drew no infect creatures and had to attack with his Noble Hierarch.
Game two and three he won with his Thing in the Ice, hitting for 17/19 damage. He later told me that he boarded out his tiny infect dudes and took in thing, making my Darkblast from side a very bad move (although Lightning Axe was great).
Round 5 I met CoCo elves. Lost first game due to his great start with mana elf T1, T2 Nykthos + Archdruid, T3 two dorks + Chord into Scavenging Ooze with mana to spend on chomping down on my Dredgers. At that time I only had 2-3 creatures out. Not much of a competition then.
Game two I boarded in Collective Brutality, Lightning Axe and Darkblast. Lightning Axe did what I wanted, killing his dorks and starting up my engine while punishing him for keeping a one lander hand (with Rest in Peace in it. Two dorks, turn five or so I won by dredging loads, racing that land of his.
Game three was similar to game two, he just didn't get his Rest in Peace until turn 4-5. By then it was too late 'caus I kept killing his dorks (and he kept blocking my Bloodghasts with 1/1's).
All in all, I love the decks constant decision making and explosiveness. The only downside is the fact that we need our opening hand to be good in order to have a good game. Lots of cards are totally dead in the graveyard (Insolent Neonate, Tormenting Voice, Collective Brutality, Lightning Axe, Nature's Claim).
Faithless Looting is the best (engine) card there is in this deck in my opinion, without it I don't think that it would be half as good.
21 Lands is where I think we want to be. We need at least two lands in our opener, dredging or Loam into our third.
That's all from me! I'll continue playing this deck for sure, but maybe not so many tournaments 'caus I'll be a stay-at-home dad soon. Not much time left over then. =P
EDIT:
Wow! Great analysis Lantern!
I think fetches are better simply because they let you dodge sorcery speed answers. You can lag a fetch to dodge that Anger of the Gods or Ugin -X and that can be enough to win you the game. I've been running an all rainbow lands build (with 4 Copperline Gorge, 2 Dakmor and 2 Mountains) and it's been very nice but not required. I know the fetch base is better I just keep forgetting to make the swap when I'm at home. I honestly think the difference is minor but fetches are technically better.
On Conflagrate. I'm convinced it's like the 2nd best card in the deck. It wins me too many games either by clearing their board early or damage late (or both) for me to ever consider cutting it. The Loam package also lets us hard cast GGT if we absolutely need to (which I do on numerous occasions, much to the dismay of my opponents).
Something I have been running that these lists aren't (that I really like) has been Streetwraith. The "free" instant speed cycle has let me really speed my engine up out of the gate and unlike Tormenting Voice, it counts towards GGT and Gnaw to the Bone when it is in the yard.
I really like the 1x Haunted Dead. It's just another option to get the engine restarted if it stalls (happened to me this weekend). Unlike Conflag, it can be used multiple times as well if it isn't exiled and provides an extra 3 power onto the board (including a flying blocker at instant speed). I think all those things are good enough to warrant a 1x but not more.
Great job repping us everyone who went to a GP this weekend. I am very happy yall did well (but not as good as to throw us all under the ban mania hype train ;-)
This card is sort of like a mix between Lightning Axe and Conflagrate.
Positives:
Can wipe the board very easily against creature matchups with a lot of larger dudes
Discard can be leveraged
CMC 3 is very doable for this effect
Negatives:
Must be in hand to work (no different than lightning axe)
Not really an enabler since it cant happen until T3
can't do damage to the face (same as lightning axe)
I could see this as a 1 of in the board for the creature matchups where you wouldn't be using conflag to the face anyway. It could suppliment the decks interaction nicely. Im sure it would have its moments just as Collective Brutality does.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
In games where our opponents are bringing in artifact and enchantment hate, we are a far less explosive deck. They either get us with a T0 Leyline which just forces us to draw for an answer or by casting Narcomoebas, Prized Amalgams and Bloodghasts both effectively slow us down several turns (or completely). With a T2 RIP our opponents may have exiled a decent portion of our payoff cards: Prized Amalgams and Bloodghasts, so even when we do find an answer to a RIP our payoffs will be reduced. In both these cases I think I'm happy to pay RG for a Destructive Revelry as hitting 2 mana isn't as difficult when we don't dredge and draw off the top.
I am thinking as a 1-of SB card, not a maindeckable option I would agree.
The eldrazi matchup would be the most relevant one I think, but other decks that have a ton of good blockers would get hit by it as well.
The last tournament I played in my opponent was on forest-thinning belcher, which runs a ton of 0/4 mana dorks. Ive also wanted more destructive power when playing against zoo or naya humans as those decks have great blockers that come out fast. This is where you would want something like nahiri's wrath.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Sure, here's what I ran:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
Loam package
3 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Faithless Looting
Flex
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Burning Inquiry
1 Rally the Peasants
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Axe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Darkblast
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Abrupt Decay
I opted for 5 extra draw/discard (4 Voice/1 Inquiry) and 1 Rally the Peasants with no other flex cards to have the fastest goldfish kill game 1. I think this is a good beginner's list because you have a bit fewer options than with Darkblast and Hunted Dead. I expected a lot of Tron, Ad Nauseum and control decks so Darkblast and Lightning Axe didn't feel optimal.
I had doubts about Tormenting Voice because I saw many lists running only 2, but it seems miles ahead of Shrieking Horn and Burning Inquiry. I can't imagine running less than 4.
For the mana, I tried to switch a Blood Crypt for Overgrown Tomb. This seemed inconsequential, both choices look neutral. The important thing is that both provide the 2nd fetchable swamp.
Also switched a Mountain for Steam Vents, which was useful in a few occasions, although I could see preferring the Mountain against a lot of Path, Bloodmoon or Burn.
This manabase was very reliable albeit a bit painful. I can imagine other schemes working just as well.
For the sideboard, Ancient Grudge overperformed, I could even see cutting one as the affinity matchup is already pretty good. Decay and EE fulfill the same role of anti-hate and catch all answers. More or them felt necessary, especially on the draw when you can't Thoughtseize the opponent's Cage.
To my surprise, the deck is actually quite interactive and decision packed. I had a lot of games decided on the last draw. Playing around hate and controlling the board with attacks+conflagrate is very tricky.
One interesting idea I saw in this thread was to play more than 60 cards. One of the best performing decklist seems to do just that, adding a 21st land + an extra flex card.
Cutting a key card, an enabler or a dredger for a Vengeful Pharaoh or a Darkblast feels wrong, but diluting them a bit with 1-2 additional cards that works from the graveyard seems sensible. Anyone tried that?
All good points. I agree. Good discussion
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Walachh I would mulligan all those scenarios except I would keep a hand with 2 lands a tormenting voice and a dredger.
One dredge 3/Dakmor Salvage: Keep. If the enabler is Neonate, attack with it until you find something good to discard.
2 lands + Tormenting Voice: Keep. Not having a T1 play isn't a death sentence when your T2 play is solid.
3 lands + Looting: Keep. You're guaranteed a turn 1 and 3 play.
3 lands + Amalgam: Keep and hope to get lucky. If you keep, you already have the lands, so whether you can get back into the game or not hinges on you drawing spells. If you mulligan, well, you still have to draw spells to win, but now you're no longer guaranteed any lands, which is a disadvantage.
Basically any hand with at least 1 land and a Looting is a keep. When it comes to digging for cards, Looting is on par with Sleight of Hand.
Another thing I'd like to mention is to mulligan hands without green sources (red source + Looting is an exception, as always). Loaming back lands is pretty important, despite the common notion that Dredge can win without casting spells. You have a lot more options when you have Loam - you can bring back Bloodghasts, flashback Conflagrate or Looting, hardcast creatures, etc.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Seconded, definitely don't go above 61, maybe 62 with the 20 land version or you'll significantly increase the chances of a one land opening seven without a looting in it.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
As opposed to leyline or the blue flashback spell.
Personally i have been using the blue flashback but havent hit the mirror yet.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I agree with your points here. The reason I brought it up was because I've seen them in sideboards in top lists before. Notably this recent 1st place finish at a PPTQ.
I wonder if he just didn't hit the mirror, or if he knows something we don't about bojuka bog.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Mirror is who hits the layline or the journey. I perfer journey, since its It lets me dredge and get the win, plus it has odd ends uses against stuff like grizzlebrand or storm.
So we can get game enders iona, shield of emeria, elesh norn, grand cenobite reanimated like they do in legacy.
now that prized amalgam is available to the recursion arsenal its a lot easier to spam creatures, with that we have enough to convoke Endless Obedience more frequently.
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Collective Brutality
3 Tormenting Voice
3 Conflagrate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
1 Lightning Axe
4 City of Brass
3 Mana Confluence
4 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Dakmor Salvage
1 Haunted Dead
3 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Nature's Claim
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Darkblast
2 Lightning Axe
What do you guys think?
I'm unfortunately not in a position to buy fetchlands right now, but I've seen lists do well without it. The list I've been playtesting (similar to mine) runs no fetches and it works out great. As for some things I understand may look strange:
U Merfolk U
W Mono W PBJ W
UBRGDredgeGRBU
EDH:
U Arcum Dagsson U
~I think Randy Buehler's mug is buehlertiful~
The problem is that it needs to be in the first 7-9 cards you draw or you won't see it. Legacy Dredge casts Dread Return from GY. Our closest approximation is Unburial Rites, but hitting 4 mana is tough unless you're dredging life from the loam over grave trolls, and we are already painful at 3 colors, so hitting white for the flashback cost of rites would be hard.
And in general, we don't need either. Dredge is a tier 1 deck because we "draw" 5-6 cards per turn and can put 14+ power on the board without casting it by the end of turn 3. I think the main degenerate dredging gameplan is essentially our "combo win" and the rest of our cards should either enable or protect that gameplan, since we really don't need a wincon beyond turning our free creatures sideways and maybe casting Rally.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes