I haven't seen any recent discussions on this, but has anyone considered a version with SSGs and Flame of Keld for accelerated Cathartic Reunion/Flame of Keld starts?
Get to brewing with Flame of Keld Loam!! I would love to see four Flame Jabs for 12 at something, or four Molten Vortex triggers for 16 at something; Seismic Assault and Life from the Loam on turn 4 would surely spell death even for a Soul Sisters opponent.
But yeah, unfortunately Flamewake Phoenix and Conflagrate (even if you did use the former) are not enough incentives to use Flame of Keld.
@lantern what direction are you taking it? bridge?
Hey, sorry, work takes me away from the game for long periods of time.
No. I wouldn't use bridge until I see something that says "Sac a creature: Return X from the graveyard" We have 0 good sac effects from the yard, and thats the biggest thing stopping bridge versions.
A bit against the grain, but I was feeling nostalgic for my old Dredge deck which was the first Dredge deck ever made (RAV-TSP Standard) and after researching standard decklists and extended decklists, I pieced something together that might interest you folks looking for different flavor.
What you lose: Fireball, Faithless Looting
What you gain: Insane grind potential with Rusalka and Bridge.
I've been trying different cards in the Dream Twist slot, notably that landfall crab and Thoughtscour. This deck feels more like an Ichorid deck than the current red Dredge deck, where you create massive board states. I'm not saying it's necessarily better (or worse)and it's certainly not finely tuned, but I thought I would share a different take, and maybe spark some discussion because the current list has been basically the same for a year and a half or so.
I've had a good amount of success with the deck. Whereas the red version plops some Amalgams into play once or twice and hopes to close with Conflagrate (or the unearth dude or flash back card or whatever), I believe that to be very one trick pony-esque. This build is more set up to generate insurmountable board states, and actually abuse Bridge/Rusalka/Ghast/Amalgam in a way that the red build cannot, because you can cheat out your things more than once or twice per game. Just something I thought I'd share.
I do miss Dread Return though. I wish there was more of a Legacy or Vintage scene around me so I could play Dredge there.
Edit: I complete forgot about the split card. I will give that a few runs soon. 2nd image will be what I test next.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I was thinking about getting back into Dredge after some time off from it. Is Shriekhorn the norm now? How good is it?!
BUMP!
Shriekhorn Allows you to keep what I like to call "riskier hands", as long as your hand looks keepable. It allows you to "dredge 4" turn 1, MP2 on Opp turn and Upkeep on your Turn 2, total for 4 + Whatever dredger you hit for the draw step. That last counter on Shriekhorn can be used in response to a Narcomoeba trigger or Bloodghast trigger to hit more Prized Amalgams.
@Sodek
Can you explain your 1-of Thoughtseize in the sideboard? I play your list 74/75 with Driven//Despair in the Thoughtseize slot. I think, in terms of impact and reliability, that Driven//Despair is superior as a 1-of.
That will sound strange but I like playing exactly 1 Thoughtseize becouse the best Thoughtseize is first Thoughtseize you play. Second and third drawn are usually not as effective as first one becouse:
1. First one already responded to opponent's best card
2. First one already got us information about opponent's gameplan
3. Every other Thoughtseize we draw it's 1 card off dredge engine which will increase chances to fizzle.
If first drawn Thoughtseize is the best and other are weaker I like to have only 1 Thoughtseize in side to draw it when it's best and not draw it when it would be worse. Also with Damping Sphere I have other plan to fight combo decks and if I need some discard I can also count Collective Brutality as discard which gives me 3 hand disruption spells which is enough to cmhave reasonable chance to draw 1 post side.
About Driven//Despair - I'm not a huge fan of this card. It can be very powerful vs combo decks but only when we are on a play and have good dredge action with many creatures returned from grave. So if we have a lot of power early we should be favored on a play anyway. On a draw it would still be too late since many combo decks can goldfish on turn 3.
There is also an argument to side in Driven vs control and heavy midrange decks. But it's not what we want to get from sideboard card. Dredge engine will win most card advantage wars anyway so having another card only to be even more ahead on cards is not a winning line post side. We should focus on dealing with their grave hate and quick clock to make sure we can execute our gameplan.
Getting back into Modern since the last PPTQ and as such haven't played against KCI. As I'm not familiar with the interactions, at what point or trigger do we use Grudge/Nature's Claim to disrupt the combo?
My argument for Driven//Despair would be two matchups that you left out: Tron and Valakut. Despair is winning me many games (and matches) here where Thoughtseize would a) not be available to me (not in opening hand) and b) not be impactful enough. Card advantage doesn't win the game here, but an extra turn does.
Here's an analysis of the latest top 8 decks according to mtgtop8.com, spanning from early June to mid July. The goal is to figure out what are the current trends in top performing Dredge decks in term of card choices.
Manabase: Almost everybody plays 20 lands where the first 17 are always 6 Fetches, 6 Fetchable lands (2 RG, 2 RB, 1 Moutain, 1 Moutain/Forest) , 4 Copperline Gorge and 1 Dakmor Salvage. Decks typically run 2 lands producing blue between Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Mana Confluence and Steam Vents. The last few slots are filled with an additional Dakmor Salvage and/or one-of such as Blackcleave Cliffs, Ghost Quarters and Sheltered Thicket/Canyon Slough. Most decks only require red fetchlands, which should be diversified to confuse the opponent and play around Pitching Needle.
There are 7 flex slots left, 4 of which are additional enablers. Some people are going with the traditional Insolent Neonate, but old-school Shriekhorn/Tormenting Voice is becoming more popular. Notably, people don't mix them.
Everyone plays at least 1 Darkblast in the current meta, and top decks are evenly divided between the last dredger being an additional Darkblast or Thug.
The last card is most often Scourge Devil, with Haunted Dead being currently out of flavor. Other options are Lightning Axe, Driven/Despair, Collective Brutality, or additional dredger/enabler/land.
Here's an analysis of the latest top 8 decks according to mtgtop8.com, spanning from early June to mid July. The goal is to figure out what are the current trends in top performing Dredge decks in term of card choices.
Manabase: Almost everybody plays 20 lands where the first 17 are always 6 Fetches, 6 Fetchable lands (2 RG, 2 RB, 1 Moutain, 1 Moutain/Forest) , 4 Copperline Gorge and 1 Dakmor Salvage. Decks typically run 2 lands producing blue between Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Mana Confluence and Steam Vents. The last few slots are filled with an additional Dakmor Salvage and/or one-of such as Blackcleave Cliffs, Ghost Quarters and Sheltered Thicket/Canyon Slough. Most decks only require red fetchlands, which should be diversified to confuse the opponent and play around Pitching Needle.
There are 7 flex slots left, 4 of which are additional enablers. Some people are going with the traditional Insolent Neonate, but old-school Shriekhorn/Tormenting Voice is becoming more popular. Notably, people don't mix them.
Everyone plays at least 1 Darkblast in the current meta, and top decks are evenly divided between the last dredger being an additional Darkblast or Thug.
The last card is most often Scourge Devil, with Haunted Dead being currently out of flavor. Other options are Lightning Axe, Driven/Despair, Collective Brutality, or additional dredger/enabler/land.
This was VERY helpful. Thank you!
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Decks Modern UGWRB Humans G Mono-Green Tron UWBR Ad Nauseam
As an outsider poking around buying an alternative deck (to my beloved Scaled Affinity), how does dredge fare against Ux Control, Bx Midrange, KCI and Tron? The meta I'm encountering on MTGO seems to be a combination of those decks plus a few creature decks like Bridge Below, Hollow One, and Spirits.
I have no read on the meta because I have never been to this particular LGS. Cards I would strongly consider dropping based on local experience would be 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Collective Brutality. I think EE, Tec Edge, Gnaw to the Bone, and Ghost Quarter interest me most in these spots.
SB plan
Humans
-1 Tormenting Voice/1 Shriekhorn (otd) or 2 Shriekhorn (otp), -1 Bloodghast + 3 Lightning Axe (willing to consider siding out 1 LftL in place of an enabler) - Here one of my concerns is Auriok Champion. 2 of these, or 1 coupled with Phantasmal Image, get rough. I may want 1-2 Engineered Explosives in side.
Spirits (I have no experience in this matchup but feel confident it will be at this event)
+3 Lightning Axe, +2 Claim, -3 Horn/voice, -1 Ghast, -1 LftL
What do you guys think? I don't feel like we discuss sideboarding and games 2-3 enough.
Went 4-2 for 15th place out of 50.
Rd 1 W vs Blue Moon 2-0
Rd 2 L vs Living End 0-2
Rd 3 L vs Infect 0-2
Rd 4 W vs Affinity 2-1
Rd 5 W vs TitanShift 2-0
Rd 6 W vs Jund 2-0
Felt bad to lose the matchups that are so favorable, but I had three games in those two matches where I mulled to 5 and had a one-lander. Ah well. Onto the next PPTQ!
I don't fell that Living End is a good match up. They play maindeck grave hate in form of Faerie Macabre and Archfiend of Ifnir whivh is devastating post Living End. And post side they have Angers and even sometimes Leylines. It looks really hard to overcome it.
I don't feel like we discuss sideboarding and games 2-3 enough.
Indeed. I switched to Hollow One but sometimes i still play Dredge however i find really difficulties in G2-3 beacause there isn't a straight sideboard state or guide not outdated I mean no offence but for new players feels like a big wall.
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Anyway continuing this conversation is pointless. Arguing with a spammer is like going against the church.
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But yeah, unfortunately Flamewake Phoenix and Conflagrate (even if you did use the former) are not enough incentives to use Flame of Keld.
No way, I'm getting a playset and testing the crap put of this. This makes even Rally and devil better.
Hey, sorry, work takes me away from the game for long periods of time.
No. I wouldn't use bridge until I see something that says "Sac a creature: Return X from the graveyard" We have 0 good sac effects from the yard, and thats the biggest thing stopping bridge versions.
Congrats MATTI KUISMA!
Modern
UGWRB Humans
G Mono-Green Tron
UWBR Ad Nauseam
What you lose: Fireball, Faithless Looting
What you gain: Insane grind potential with Rusalka and Bridge.
I've been trying different cards in the Dream Twist slot, notably that landfall crab and Thoughtscour. This deck feels more like an Ichorid deck than the current red Dredge deck, where you create massive board states. I'm not saying it's necessarily better (or worse)and it's certainly not finely tuned, but I thought I would share a different take, and maybe spark some discussion because the current list has been basically the same for a year and a half or so.
I've had a good amount of success with the deck. Whereas the red version plops some Amalgams into play once or twice and hopes to close with Conflagrate (or the unearth dude or flash back card or whatever), I believe that to be very one trick pony-esque. This build is more set up to generate insurmountable board states, and actually abuse Bridge/Rusalka/Ghast/Amalgam in a way that the red build cannot, because you can cheat out your things more than once or twice per game. Just something I thought I'd share.
I do miss Dread Return though. I wish there was more of a Legacy or Vintage scene around me so I could play Dredge there.
Edit: I complete forgot about the split card. I will give that a few runs soon. 2nd image will be what I test next.
BUMP!
Modern
UGWRB Humans
G Mono-Green Tron
UWBR Ad Nauseam
Shriekhorn Allows you to keep what I like to call "riskier hands", as long as your hand looks keepable. It allows you to "dredge 4" turn 1, MP2 on Opp turn and Upkeep on your Turn 2, total for 4 + Whatever dredger you hit for the draw step. That last counter on Shriekhorn can be used in response to a Narcomoeba trigger or Bloodghast trigger to hit more Prized Amalgams.
I personally find Shriekhorn+Faithless Looting+ 2 Lands hands very good against most decks and plays around those pesky Grixis Shadow decks that love to play Stubborn Denial for our Cathartic Reunion when we are on the play.
At least that's my take on it.
Also Hello Dredge Forums, long time lurker, first time member of these forums.
Can you explain your 1-of Thoughtseize in the sideboard? I play your list 74/75 with Driven//Despair in the Thoughtseize slot. I think, in terms of impact and reliability, that Driven//Despair is superior as a 1-of.
1. First one already responded to opponent's best card
2. First one already got us information about opponent's gameplan
3. Every other Thoughtseize we draw it's 1 card off dredge engine which will increase chances to fizzle.
If first drawn Thoughtseize is the best and other are weaker I like to have only 1 Thoughtseize in side to draw it when it's best and not draw it when it would be worse. Also with Damping Sphere I have other plan to fight combo decks and if I need some discard I can also count Collective Brutality as discard which gives me 3 hand disruption spells which is enough to cmhave reasonable chance to draw 1 post side.
About Driven//Despair - I'm not a huge fan of this card. It can be very powerful vs combo decks but only when we are on a play and have good dredge action with many creatures returned from grave. So if we have a lot of power early we should be favored on a play anyway. On a draw it would still be too late since many combo decks can goldfish on turn 3.
There is also an argument to side in Driven vs control and heavy midrange decks. But it's not what we want to get from sideboard card. Dredge engine will win most card advantage wars anyway so having another card only to be even more ahead on cards is not a winning line post side. We should focus on dealing with their grave hate and quick clock to make sure we can execute our gameplan.
Manabase: Almost everybody plays 20 lands where the first 17 are always 6 Fetches, 6 Fetchable lands (2 RG, 2 RB, 1 Moutain, 1 Moutain/Forest) , 4 Copperline Gorge and 1 Dakmor Salvage. Decks typically run 2 lands producing blue between Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Mana Confluence and Steam Vents. The last few slots are filled with an additional Dakmor Salvage and/or one-of such as Blackcleave Cliffs, Ghost Quarters and Sheltered Thicket/Canyon Slough. Most decks only require red fetchlands, which should be diversified to confuse the opponent and play around Pitching Needle.
Core (33 cards):
Payoffs: 4 Bloodghast, 4 Narcomoeba, 4 Prized Amalgam, 3 Conflagrate.
Dredgers: 4 Stinkweed Imp, 2 Golgari Thug, 4 Life from the Loam
Enablers: 4 Faithless Looting, 4 Cathartic Reunion
There are 7 flex slots left, 4 of which are additional enablers. Some people are going with the traditional Insolent Neonate, but old-school Shriekhorn/Tormenting Voice is becoming more popular. Notably, people don't mix them.
Everyone plays at least 1 Darkblast in the current meta, and top decks are evenly divided between the last dredger being an additional Darkblast or Thug.
The last card is most often Scourge Devil, with Haunted Dead being currently out of flavor. Other options are Lightning Axe, Driven/Despair, Collective Brutality, or additional dredger/enabler/land.
This was VERY helpful. Thank you!
Modern
UGWRB Humans
G Mono-Green Tron
UWBR Ad Nauseam
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Mountain
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
2 Golgari Thug
4 Life from the Loam
2 Darkblast
4 Shriekhorn
1 Tormenting Voice
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
3 Damping Sphere
3 Nature's Claim
3 Lightning Axe
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Driven//Despair
3 Collective Brutality
I have no read on the meta because I have never been to this particular LGS. Cards I would strongly consider dropping based on local experience would be 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Collective Brutality. I think EE, Tec Edge, Gnaw to the Bone, and Ghost Quarter interest me most in these spots.
SB plan
Humans
-1 Tormenting Voice/1 Shriekhorn (otd) or 2 Shriekhorn (otp), -1 Bloodghast + 3 Lightning Axe (willing to consider siding out 1 LftL in place of an enabler) - Here one of my concerns is Auriok Champion. 2 of these, or 1 coupled with Phantasmal Image, get rough. I may want 1-2 Engineered Explosives in side.
Tron
-1 Narcomoeba, -2 Conflagrate, -1 Tormenting Voice, -1 Darkblast, +3 Damping Sphere, +1 Driven, +1 Grudge (may want 2 Conflag)
B/G/x
+3 Lightning Axe, -1 Bloodghast, -1 Conflagrate, -1 Horn/Voice, more changes if Leyline shows up
Mardu
+3 Claim, +2 Axe/Brutality, -1 Narcomoeba, -1 LftL, -3 Voice/Horn,
U/W or U/W/x
+3 Claim, -1 Darkblast, -1 Narcomoeba, -1 Voice
Storm
+3 Axe, +3 Sphere, -5 Horn/Voice, -1 Narcomoeba
Valakut
+3 Brutality, +1 Driven, -1 Conflagrate, -1 Voice, -1 Horn, -1 Narcomoeba
Burn
+3 Brutality, +3 Lightning Axe, -5 Horn/Voice, -1 Bloodghast
Hollow One
+3 Claim, +3 Axe, -3 Horn/Voice, -1 Bloodghast, -1 Conflagrate, -1 LftL
Affinity
+3 Axe, +2 Grudge, -3 Horn/Voice, -1 Bloodghast, -1 LftL (need Claim?)
Ironworks
+2 Ancient Grudge, +3 Claim, -2 Conflagrate, -1 Narcomoeba, -1 Darkblast, -1 Voice
Spirits (I have no experience in this matchup but feel confident it will be at this event)
+3 Lightning Axe, +2 Claim, -3 Horn/voice, -1 Ghast, -1 LftL
What do you guys think? I don't feel like we discuss sideboarding and games 2-3 enough.
Rd 1 W vs Blue Moon 2-0
Rd 2 L vs Living End 0-2
Rd 3 L vs Infect 0-2
Rd 4 W vs Affinity 2-1
Rd 5 W vs TitanShift 2-0
Rd 6 W vs Jund 2-0
Felt bad to lose the matchups that are so favorable, but I had three games in those two matches where I mulled to 5 and had a one-lander. Ah well. Onto the next PPTQ!
Indeed. I switched to Hollow One but sometimes i still play Dredge however i find really difficulties in G2-3 beacause there isn't a straight sideboard state or guide not outdated I mean no offence but for new players feels like a big wall.