Twin can make infinite damage, so can the mirror. Infinite life only has a few decks that don't concede to it. The mirror and Twin are a couple of them.
Strictly speaking, all you can actually do is arbitrarily high finite life and arbitrarily high finite damage (and arbitrarily large but finite power on your creatures). You've got to pick a finite number--otherwise, even if each loop took a nanosecond, finishing infinitely many loops would still take an infinite amount of time.
Say your Twin/mirror opponent kills your "Melira" while you've got the Finks version of the combo out. You go infinite arbitrarily large finite in response. You're now at a googolplex life. Then "Melira" dies. Then they go off for a googolplex + million damage and you can no longer gain more life in response. That's how they win through "infinite" life.
If that is the case why don't you simply go through the motions to get towards a large finite number of life. After about ten minutes of going through the process of getting a huge amount of life, wouldn't most people concede the match? Conversely if you have 10,000 life because you got the combo out, and then the opponent sets up a combo and kills your combo, can you force them to actually go through the motions? I am unsure of the rules regarding slow play on this issue.
These are the best Comprehensive Rules I could find regarding how to actually pull off an "infinite" loop: 716. Taking Shortcuts
This link leads to outdated Comprehensive Rules that probably cover "infinite" loops better.
I strongly suspect that, in a paper tournament, actually manually going through all 10,000 loops and insisting on not shortcutting them--and forcing your opponent to do the same whenever you're about to lose to their combo--would count as stalling, as defined here. Stalling can get you disqualified from a tournament, so...don't be that jerk.
On MTGO, opponents WILL commonly force you to manually loop so you time out and lose and they don't time out (and win). Better stop your loops when you have 500 life.
Isn't this combo instant speed though, say against twin if they make 2 million attackers to stop our a million health can't we reactivate to give ourself another 3 million health?
Isn't this combo instant speed though, say against twin if they make 2 million attackers to stop our a million health can't we reactivate to give ourself another 3 million health?
At some point the Twin player has to go into combat phase to attack and win. So they must pick a number to attack with. Infinite implies it goes on for ever, but in reality there the loop of making guys with twin stops and they HAVE to stop making guys to attack with (attack phase). SO in response you ask them how many did you make and are attacking with, and then you gain double or triple that life to beat the damage. Your life making combo must be broke for them to win.
OK cool, thanks. I thought so. SO if boht plays have nothing to kill combo pieces with. Our combo will allows us to stay alive, so then it just becomes a race of who can find the kill spell first.
I don't think the Anafenza combo + persist creatures works the way you think it does. Just because you put a +1/+1 counter on a creature does not mean it does not have a -1/-1 counter on it, it still has both the counters. Here's the oracle from Kitchen Finks:
6/7/2013: If a creature with persist that has +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, persist won't trigger and the card won't return to the battlefield. That's because persist checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
For starters, it's missing 2 cards. It's got only 20 published lands (not including Dryad Arbor), and it has no basic Plains, but it has no Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirits, and 2 Meliras look disproportionately few compared to 4 sac outlets and 4 Persist dudes. It also has no maindeck disruption that doesn't have legs (notably, it has no maindeck way to actually kill an opposing Scavenging Ooze). So what do you all think the 2 missing cards are? Anafenzas? Lands? 1 Plains and 1 Anafenza? 2 Abrupt Decays?
It does look like a hybrid of what I'm on (more Goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary, only KotR targets are Township and Tec Edge) and a more all-in list (Chord, more combo pieces, seemingly no maindeck removal instants). 2 Spellskites look weird in a Chord list, though, especially when they're such early self-tempo killers.
He mentioned in the interview they made to top8 players he was playing Anafenza. However, it's kind of weird the list doesn't include a basic Plains, so that would be my guess.
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Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
For starters, it's missing 2 cards. It's got only 20 published lands (not including Dryad Arbor), and it has no basic Plains, but it has no Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirits, and 2 Meliras look disproportionately few compared to 4 sac outlets and 4 Persist dudes. It also has no maindeck disruption that doesn't have legs (notably, it has no maindeck way to actually kill an opposing Scavenging Ooze). So what do you all think the 2 missing cards are? Anafenzas? Lands? 1 Plains and 1 Anafenza? 2 Abrupt Decays?
It does look like a hybrid of what I'm on (more Goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary, only KotR targets are Township and Tec Edge) and a more all-in list (Chord, more combo pieces, seemingly no maindeck removal instants). 2 Spellskites look weird in a Chord list, though, especially when they're such early self-tempo killers.
He mentioned in the interview they made to top8 players he was playing Anafenza. However, it's kind of weird the list doesn't include a basic Plains, so that would be my guess.
The MTGTop8 version claims that the two missing cards are a Plains and a Township. Now I don't know who to trust (although I do have a nagging suspicion that the Anafenzas are actually in).
Cbgirado, would you mind explaining what matchups Stain the Mind would be used to improve? I don't think there are many decks left that are so linear that removal of one card completely neuters the deck are there?
Have you considered replacing some maindeck discard with Collected Company and Sin Collectors/Tidehollow Scullers? The card is absolutely absurd and you run 23 maindeck creatures with CMC <= 3 already (Frank Karsten in his article recommended at least 22 creatures in a Company deck) so you may not even need to change much to accommodate. I think it's worth testing for sure.
Three Township looks like it would be pretty hard on the mana base. Between Anafenza, Voice, and Congregation, I'd think you would be setting back your curve on a consistent basis.
Collected Company looked like a Modern playable the instant it was spoiled, and a number of players have tried to use the card since then. With a number of MTGO and SCG IQ finishes in the past 2 weeks, this card looks like it is on its way to becoming a Modern mainstay. It remains to be seen whether or not this is the best shell for CC, but it's gotten a ton of traffic and views, and it has more than a few results to back it up. To encourage that growth, we are sticking this in Deck Creation.
I think the list is bad. Congregation at Dawn is at its best when you have Collected Company in hand already (i.e. you're already winning) and it's so bad in most situations. Abrupt Decay is clearly a better choice.
2 lists in the top 4 of Iowa States (2nd and tied for 3rd/4th), 2nd in Mississippi States(again with some strange card choices)...we're starting to really get results. If you waited to see the States results it would likely already be in Tier 2. In terms of power level I think this deck is easily Tier 1 and can be optimized much further.
Here's my 3rd place(of 50 players) decklist from the Iowa TCGplayer States on Saturday. I had only played a handful of games with the deck and wasn't sure I was even going to play, as I don't normally play modern and hadn't played modern at all since Pod got banned. I was definitely learning the deck as I played and made some mistakes, but the deck was so good it carried me through.
Rd 1: 2-0 vs GR Infect. Both games he drew a bunch of creatures and no pumps, while I played Voice on turn 2 and then E-Witness to get it back after trading. (1-0)
Rd 2: 2-0 vs Snap Crackle Geist. He started with a game loss for deck registration. Game 2 I played Voice on turn 2, so he started playing his spells at sorcery speed. I think he thought I was just a regular Abzan beatdown deck. With him tapped out, I was able to hit back-to-back Collected Companies and combo for the win. (2-0)
Rd 3: 2-1 vs RWU Twin. The instant speed of Collected Company is so good in this matchup. On my endstep, he cast Electrolyze to draw a card, and I was able to Collected Company into the win. Game 2, I was holding Dismember, but tapped out, and he end stepped Resto Angel and then Kiki-combo'd me. Game 3 was close, but he missed his third land for a couple turns and that let me establish a board to start the beats. (3-0)
Rd 4: 1-1-1 vs Abzan midrange. His build was very unique. No Lilly's or Goyfs, but instead Kitchen Finks and 4 maindeck Scavenging Oozes, which were a serious pain. Game 1 was actually very quick, with him conceding after missing a land drop and me getting way ahead on board with Collected Company. Game 2 was about 42 minutes as I tried to navigate the combo through Scavenging Ooze, but each time he had an answer, with Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Zealous Persecution(why didn't I pay 1 more to Chord for Cartel Aristocrat instead of Viscera Seer?!). Eventually he was able to grind out the win with Siege Rhino, an army of Lingering Souls tokens and a large Voice Elemental token. We started game 3 with a couple minutes left in the round and couldn't get anything going. (3-0-1)
Rd 5: 2-1 vs Ad Nauseam Unlife. Game 1, I put him to 5 life while he was sculpting his hand with Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand. He cast Peer Through Depths into Peer Through Depths into Ad Nauseam for the win. Game 2, he mulled and didn't have much action, so I was able to beat down. Game 3, he mulled to 5 and just wasn't able to do anything. (4-0-1)
Rd 6: 0-2 vs Affinity. My opponent and I were in a position to draw, but a loss wouldn't hurt either, so being on Affinity, my opponent wanted to play for the higher seed to be on the play throughout the top 8. I mulled to 5 in game 1 and got rolled. Game 2, I mulled to 6, but got a board presence established, hitting 2 Kitchen Finks off of Collected Company, but he had Vault Skirge, Ornithopter, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Signal Pest to fly over and Steel Overseer to pump them for the kill. (4-1-1)
Quarterfinals: 2-0 over Abzan Midrange. This is a rematch from the draw in swiss. He didn't draw any Scavenging Oozes this time and I turn 3 Collected Company into Kitchen Finks and Eternal Witness getting back Collected Company, then turn 4 Collected Company again and he had seen enough. Game 2, he got a Courser of Kruphix into play and was hitting lands, but he was color-screwed and couldn't do anything. I missed the kill at one point by not getting Chord back with Eternal Witness (got Collected Company instead, but could have Chorded for Viscera Seer). Got the win the next turn though.
Semifinals: 0-2 vs Collected Company. The mirror match... cbgirardo already recapped it, but he got infinite life on turn 3 in game one, then scryed to get infinite damage on turn 4. Game 2, I got infinite life on turn 4. I didn't have double black to cast Murderous Redcap, but I had enough guys that I could Chord for Redcap, so I scryed Chord to the top to set up the win the next turn. Only problem was I didn't get a next turn. He sac'd 2 guys to find a second black source of his own and played Redcap from hand to kill me.
Considering my inexperience with both the deck and the format, I was super happy with the result. The deck is a lot of fun, but it is actually really hard to play (I'd say harder than pod, which I played before, because you can't just out-muscle people with your smaller creatures). I'm planning on running it again on Sunday for SCG States, and hopefully I'll get some more practice before then so I can finish the job.
These are the best Comprehensive Rules I could find regarding how to actually pull off an "infinite" loop:
716. Taking Shortcuts
This link leads to outdated Comprehensive Rules that probably cover "infinite" loops better.
I strongly suspect that, in a paper tournament, actually manually going through all 10,000 loops and insisting on not shortcutting them--and forcing your opponent to do the same whenever you're about to lose to their combo--would count as stalling, as defined here. Stalling can get you disqualified from a tournament, so...don't be that jerk.
On MTGO, opponents WILL commonly force you to manually loop so you time out and lose and they don't time out (and win). Better stop your loops when you have 500 life.
At some point the Twin player has to go into combat phase to attack and win. So they must pick a number to attack with. Infinite implies it goes on for ever, but in reality there the loop of making guys with twin stops and they HAVE to stop making guys to attack with (attack phase). SO in response you ask them how many did you make and are attacking with, and then you gain double or triple that life to beat the damage. Your life making combo must be broke for them to win.
6/7/2013: If a creature with persist that has +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, persist won't trigger and the card won't return to the battlefield. That's because persist checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
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He mentioned in the interview they made to top8 players he was playing Anafenza. However, it's kind of weird the list doesn't include a basic Plains, so that would be my guess.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
The MTGTop8 version claims that the two missing cards are a Plains and a Township. Now I don't know who to trust (although I do have a nagging suspicion that the Anafenzas are actually in).
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Three Township looks like it would be pretty hard on the mana base. Between Anafenza, Voice, and Congregation, I'd think you would be setting back your curve on a consistent basis.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Collected Company looked like a Modern playable the instant it was spoiled, and a number of players have tried to use the card since then. With a number of MTGO and SCG IQ finishes in the past 2 weeks, this card looks like it is on its way to becoming a Modern mainstay. It remains to be seen whether or not this is the best shell for CC, but it's gotten a ton of traffic and views, and it has more than a few results to back it up. To encourage that growth, we are sticking this in Deck Creation.
Maybe if he was running one or two other slivers for random CC combos...
Also. I agree. This deck would be ridiculous to play on MTGO.
I wish there were some way they could shortcut infinite combos.
2 lists in the top 4 of Iowa States (2nd and tied for 3rd/4th), 2nd in Mississippi States(again with some strange card choices)...we're starting to really get results. If you waited to see the States results it would likely already be in Tier 2. In terms of power level I think this deck is easily Tier 1 and can be optimized much further.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Murderous Redcap
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Viscera Seer
2 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Eternal Witness
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Collected Company
2 Chord of Calling
Land (22)
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Gavony Township
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Choke
2 Sin Collector
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ghost Quarter
Here's my 3rd place(of 50 players) decklist from the Iowa TCGplayer States on Saturday. I had only played a handful of games with the deck and wasn't sure I was even going to play, as I don't normally play modern and hadn't played modern at all since Pod got banned. I was definitely learning the deck as I played and made some mistakes, but the deck was so good it carried me through.
Rd 1: 2-0 vs GR Infect. Both games he drew a bunch of creatures and no pumps, while I played Voice on turn 2 and then E-Witness to get it back after trading. (1-0)
Rd 2: 2-0 vs Snap Crackle Geist. He started with a game loss for deck registration. Game 2 I played Voice on turn 2, so he started playing his spells at sorcery speed. I think he thought I was just a regular Abzan beatdown deck. With him tapped out, I was able to hit back-to-back Collected Companies and combo for the win. (2-0)
Rd 3: 2-1 vs RWU Twin. The instant speed of Collected Company is so good in this matchup. On my endstep, he cast Electrolyze to draw a card, and I was able to Collected Company into the win. Game 2, I was holding Dismember, but tapped out, and he end stepped Resto Angel and then Kiki-combo'd me. Game 3 was close, but he missed his third land for a couple turns and that let me establish a board to start the beats. (3-0)
Rd 4: 1-1-1 vs Abzan midrange. His build was very unique. No Lilly's or Goyfs, but instead Kitchen Finks and 4 maindeck Scavenging Oozes, which were a serious pain. Game 1 was actually very quick, with him conceding after missing a land drop and me getting way ahead on board with Collected Company. Game 2 was about 42 minutes as I tried to navigate the combo through Scavenging Ooze, but each time he had an answer, with Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Zealous Persecution(why didn't I pay 1 more to Chord for Cartel Aristocrat instead of Viscera Seer?!). Eventually he was able to grind out the win with Siege Rhino, an army of Lingering Souls tokens and a large Voice Elemental token. We started game 3 with a couple minutes left in the round and couldn't get anything going. (3-0-1)
Rd 5: 2-1 vs Ad Nauseam Unlife. Game 1, I put him to 5 life while he was sculpting his hand with Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand. He cast Peer Through Depths into Peer Through Depths into Ad Nauseam for the win. Game 2, he mulled and didn't have much action, so I was able to beat down. Game 3, he mulled to 5 and just wasn't able to do anything. (4-0-1)
Rd 6: 0-2 vs Affinity. My opponent and I were in a position to draw, but a loss wouldn't hurt either, so being on Affinity, my opponent wanted to play for the higher seed to be on the play throughout the top 8. I mulled to 5 in game 1 and got rolled. Game 2, I mulled to 6, but got a board presence established, hitting 2 Kitchen Finks off of Collected Company, but he had Vault Skirge, Ornithopter, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Signal Pest to fly over and Steel Overseer to pump them for the kill. (4-1-1)
Quarterfinals: 2-0 over Abzan Midrange. This is a rematch from the draw in swiss. He didn't draw any Scavenging Oozes this time and I turn 3 Collected Company into Kitchen Finks and Eternal Witness getting back Collected Company, then turn 4 Collected Company again and he had seen enough. Game 2, he got a Courser of Kruphix into play and was hitting lands, but he was color-screwed and couldn't do anything. I missed the kill at one point by not getting Chord back with Eternal Witness (got Collected Company instead, but could have Chorded for Viscera Seer). Got the win the next turn though.
Semifinals: 0-2 vs Collected Company. The mirror match... cbgirardo already recapped it, but he got infinite life on turn 3 in game one, then scryed to get infinite damage on turn 4. Game 2, I got infinite life on turn 4. I didn't have double black to cast Murderous Redcap, but I had enough guys that I could Chord for Redcap, so I scryed Chord to the top to set up the win the next turn. Only problem was I didn't get a next turn. He sac'd 2 guys to find a second black source of his own and played Redcap from hand to kill me.
Considering my inexperience with both the deck and the format, I was super happy with the result. The deck is a lot of fun, but it is actually really hard to play (I'd say harder than pod, which I played before, because you can't just out-muscle people with your smaller creatures). I'm planning on running it again on Sunday for SCG States, and hopefully I'll get some more practice before then so I can finish the job.