Please, next time make sure you are checking for facts. The whole combo is working if athreos is on the battlefield because you can stack triggers as you like.
I do know my facts. Of course you can stack triggers how you like.
But it still breaks the combo or it is worthless...
If he is down and you want persist to work, then you will stack persist second, so the opponent will never choose to pay the life...it does entirely nothing.
If he is down and you don't want persist to work, stack persist first and Athreos gives the opponent a choice, break the combo (by sending the creature back to your hand) OR pay three life to let you keep comboing (which no sane person will do).
Bottom line is it's generally a bad card because it either breaks your combo or does nothing.
I've been testing similar lists, but I feel like the lack of Fauna Shaman is hurting people's results. The card is super real, and I've been playing it since before Collected Company was printed. It's really good with Collected Company. Here are some highlights of my list:
-5 sac outlets (3 Viscera Seer, 2 Cartel Aristocrat)
-5 combo legends (3 Anafenza, 2 Melira)
-6 Persist dudes (4 Kitchen Finks, 2 Murderous Redcap, considering cutting one Redcap)
-3 Eternal Witness
-2 Fauna Shaman
-6 mana dorks (3/3)
-0 Chord of Calling
-23 lands
The maindeck is very combo-focused and typically either gains infinite life or kills the opponent turn 4 (~60+% if uninterrupted). I have yet to lose a tournament match with the list, and have only dropped one game in a tournament (to burn, he was on the play and went t1 guide, t2 swiftspear, guide, t3 molten rain and I never got off the ground after that)
Your sideboard has a lot of noncreatures. Are you ever boarding out Collected Company? I feel that it's by far the best card in the deck, so my sideboard is mostly full of value creatures that are good in certain matchups.
I'd be really interested to see your full deck list if you will share.
Fauna shaman is such a good idea. I've been wanting a creature, creature-tutor but had forgotten about her.
I think this may be the solution to some of my problems. I've been really dissatisfied with Summoner's Pact and this will probably work as a better replacement.
For starters, it's missing 2 cards. It's got only 20 published lands (not including Dryad Arbor), and it has no basic Plains, but it has no Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirits, and 2 Meliras look disproportionately few compared to 4 sac outlets and 4 Persist dudes. It also has no maindeck disruption that doesn't have legs (notably, it has no maindeck way to actually kill an opposing Scavenging Ooze). So what do you all think the 2 missing cards are? Anafenzas? Lands? 1 Plains and 1 Anafenza? 2 Abrupt Decays?
It does look like a hybrid of what I'm on (more Goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary, only KotR targets are Township and Tec Edge) and a more all-in list (Chord, more combo pieces, seemingly no maindeck removal instants). 2 Spellskites look weird in a Chord list, though, especially when they're such early self-tempo killers.
[quote] 2 Spellskites look weird in a Chord list, though, especially when they're such early self-tempo killers.[/quote
I think you want 2 Skites in a list with no removals. You give yourself more chances to counter Twin and protect your combo (aka ignoring your opponent's plan).
I guess the 2 Meliras are here because of Infect supposedly expected ?
I'm gonna try the list, looks interesting.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
As a bit of a caution, I may as well try to assemble every archetype that will not concede to us having infinite life and more cards in our library than they do:
Infect (they'll concede in Game 1 if we have Melira out and they have no maindeck ways to get her off, but otherwise, they obviously won't concede)
Twin (they kill "Melira" and go off; our goal is to stop them from going off)
RG Tron (they find Emrakul, continuously wipe our board, and restart the game with Karn)
Breach Trap (they find Emrakul, continuously wipe our board, and discard all other Emrakuls they draw until we deck out--note that discarded Emrakuls shuffle their graveyard into their library, including the discarded Emrakul)
Mono-U Tron (they Mindslaver lock us)
The mirror (they kill "Melira" or neuter sac outlets with Linvala/Phyrexian Revoker/etc. and go off)
Goryo's Vengeance Reanimator (they Emrakul away "Melira", then pray they can last long enough by discarding Emrakuls in hand before we try to kill them again)
...Turbo Time Walk (they string together turn after turn and eventually deck us)
...Mill (duh)
Any deck with Academy Ruins and a poppable artifact (so probably UB Tezzeret)
Any deck with White Sun's Zenith (so some UW(x) Control builds--they often get run over, though)
Please notify me of any decks missing from this list!
If you're not a Murderous Redcap/Blood Artist/Blasting Station/etc. fan, I guess there's Scrying for the other "Melira" (i.e. get Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit if you have Melira and vice versa), then comboing off again, this time continuously saccing Finks in response to Anafenza's newest "Bolster 1" trigger. By the time all the Bolster triggers resolve, all your guys are infinite/infinite, and if you have Cartel Aristocrat out, they'd better have colourless blockers or Cryptic Command.
Yep. Infinite damage is far far better than infinite life.
That's a good point in stacking the Bolster triggers. Makes a good case for running more Anafenza's than I have been.
Also means that Cartel Aristocrat is better than Bloodthrone vampire (who I had been running for the easier cast cost).
As a bit of a caution, I may as well try to assemble every archetype that will not concede to us having infinite life and more cards in our library than they do:
Twin (they kill "Melira" and go off; our goal is to stop them from going off)
The mirror (they kill "Melira" or neuter sac outlets with Linvala/Phyrexian Revoker/etc. and go off)
Please notify me of any decks missing from this list!
If you're not a Murderous Redcap/Blood Artist/Blasting Station/etc. fan, I guess there's Scrying for the other "Melira" (i.e. get Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit if you have Melira and vice versa), then comboing off again, this time continuously saccing Finks in response to Anafenza's newest "Bolster 1" trigger. By the time all the Bolster triggers resolve, all your guys are infinite/infinite, and if you have Cartel Aristocrat out, they'd better have colourless blockers or Cryptic Command.
Can you explain how either the mirror or twin matchup wins if the infinite life combo has already hit the deck/been used?
I got 2nd at the Iowa Modern TCGPlayer.com States with this list. Tournament report and full list to follow. The differences from my previous list were -1 Redcap (to 1), +1 Voice of Resurgence (to 3) in the main, -2 Kataki (to 0) +2 Stain the Mind (to 2) in the board. After the tournament, I realized that one Chord of Calling is good as something to scry into when you have creatures, but not 4 mana.
Round 1 0-2 vs RG Tron
Worst matchup possible. Not much to say here.
Round 2 2-1 vs Naya Zoo
Game 1 we both flooded, but he had a Raging Ravine. Game 2 and 3 I crushed him.
Round 3 2-1 vs UR Twin
Game 1 I had no removal and he won before me. Game 2 I crushed him, game 3 I had to make my guys infinitely large with the Melira+Anafenza+Seer+Kitchen Finks trick (stack a ton of bolster triggers, then let them all resolve).
Round 4 2-1 vs UWR Control
I was flooded in 2 of the 3 games, but still managed to get there. This matchup is definitely good for us.
Round 5 1-1-1 vs RG Tron
I know the guy, I offered him a draw before the match so we could postpone our win-and-in to the following round, he declined. I beat him g1, we asked the judge if we could still draw and he said we could. This matchup is still miserable, I just won because his Pyroclasm didn't come until turn 3 when I had already gone infinite.
Round 6 2-0 vs Jund
This was not even remotely fair. They have no way to beat us realistically.
Top 8: Quarterfinals 2-1 vs Burn
I was on the draw for every match in the top 8 (7th place after Swiss). I narrowly lost game 1 because he had Lightning Helix (otherwise no way to kill me due to his low life total and Eidolon of the Great Revel), and won games 2 and 3, both of which were good games. Collected Company was the only reason I won the match, the card is absurd.
Semifinals 2-0 vs Mirror (with Chords)
On the draw game 1, I gained infinite life turn 3 and killed him turn 4 after scrying into the 4th land and having Redcap in hand. Game 2 on the draw, he gained infinite life turn 4, I sacrificed my mana dork and Fauna Shaman to scry into my second black source, untapped and killed him with Redcap.
Finals 1-2 vs Grixis Delver
On the draw game 1 I crushed him. He died with 2 Stubborn Denials in his hand. Game 2 I flooded hard and died with three lands in hand. Game 3 he was complaining loudly about his Delvers not flipping for several turns while attacking me with a Tasigur, and I never hit my fourth land and died with Collected Company and Murderous Redcap in hand the turn after he flipped both Delvers.
Overall the deck was excellent. I want to fit in one Chord of Calling in the maindeck. I don't want to cut an Abrupt Decay, so I'm going down to 29 creatures. I'll probably cut a Voice.
As a bit of a caution, I may as well try to assemble every archetype that will not concede to us having infinite life and more cards in our library than they do:
Twin (they kill "Melira" and go off; our goal is to stop them from going off)
The mirror (they kill "Melira" or neuter sac outlets with Linvala/Phyrexian Revoker/etc. and go off)
Please notify me of any decks missing from this list!
If you're not a Murderous Redcap/Blood Artist/Blasting Station/etc. fan, I guess there's Scrying for the other "Melira" (i.e. get Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit if you have Melira and vice versa), then comboing off again, this time continuously saccing Finks in response to Anafenza's newest "Bolster 1" trigger. By the time all the Bolster triggers resolve, all your guys are infinite/infinite, and if you have Cartel Aristocrat out, they'd better have colourless blockers or Cryptic Command.
Can you explain how either the mirror or twin matchup wins if the infinite life combo has already hit the deck/been used?
Twin can make infinite damage, so can the mirror. Infinite life only has a few decks that don't concede to it. The mirror and Twin are a couple of them.
Strictly speaking, all you can actually do is arbitrarily high finite life and arbitrarily high finite damage (and arbitrarily large but finite power on your creatures). You've got to pick a finite number--otherwise, even if each loop took a nanosecond, finishing infinitely many loops would still take an infinite amount of time.
Say your Twin/mirror opponent kills your "Melira" while you've got the Finks version of the combo out. You go infinite arbitrarily large finite in response. You're now at a googolplex life. Then "Melira" dies. Then they go off for a googolplex + million damage and you can no longer gain more life in response. That's how they win through "infinite" life.
Twin can make infinite damage, so can the mirror. Infinite life only has a few decks that don't concede to it. The mirror and Twin are a couple of them.
Strictly speaking, all you can actually do is arbitrarily high finite life and arbitrarily high finite damage (and arbitrarily large but finite power on your creatures). You've got to pick a finite number--otherwise, even if each loop took a nanosecond, finishing infinitely many loops would still take an infinite amount of time.
Say your Twin/mirror opponent kills your "Melira" while you've got the Finks version of the combo out. You go infinite arbitrarily large finite in response. You're now at a googolplex life. Then "Melira" dies. Then they go off for a googolplex + million damage and you can no longer gain more life in response. That's how they win through "infinite" life.
If that is the case why don't you simply go through the motions to get towards a large finite number of life. After about ten minutes of going through the process of getting a huge amount of life, wouldn't most people concede the match? Conversely if you have 10,000 life because you got the combo out, and then the opponent sets up a combo and kills your combo, can you force them to actually go through the motions? I am unsure of the rules regarding slow play on this issue.
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I do know my facts. Of course you can stack triggers how you like.
But it still breaks the combo or it is worthless...
If he is down and you want persist to work, then you will stack persist second, so the opponent will never choose to pay the life...it does entirely nothing.
If he is down and you don't want persist to work, stack persist first and Athreos gives the opponent a choice, break the combo (by sending the creature back to your hand) OR pay three life to let you keep comboing (which no sane person will do).
Bottom line is it's generally a bad card because it either breaks your combo or does nothing.
All good.
It would be much more appealing in a deck not relying on persist.
-5 sac outlets (3 Viscera Seer, 2 Cartel Aristocrat)
-5 combo legends (3 Anafenza, 2 Melira)
-6 Persist dudes (4 Kitchen Finks, 2 Murderous Redcap, considering cutting one Redcap)
-3 Eternal Witness
-2 Fauna Shaman
-6 mana dorks (3/3)
-0 Chord of Calling
-23 lands
The maindeck is very combo-focused and typically either gains infinite life or kills the opponent turn 4 (~60+% if uninterrupted). I have yet to lose a tournament match with the list, and have only dropped one game in a tournament (to burn, he was on the play and went t1 guide, t2 swiftspear, guide, t3 molten rain and I never got off the ground after that)
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I'd be really interested to see your full deck list if you will share.
Fauna shaman is such a good idea. I've been wanting a creature, creature-tutor but had forgotten about her.
I think this may be the solution to some of my problems. I've been really dissatisfied with Summoner's Pact and this will probably work as a better replacement.
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Viscera Seer
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Cartel Aristocrat
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Murderous Redcap
4 Collected Company
3 Abrupt Decay
Lands: 23
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gavony Township
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Thoughtseize
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Spellskite
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures
1 Blood Artist
1 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Spellskite
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Viscera Seer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Congregation at Dawn
3 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
3 Thoughtseize
2 Stain the Mind
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Orzhov Pontiff
For starters, it's missing 2 cards. It's got only 20 published lands (not including Dryad Arbor), and it has no basic Plains, but it has no Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirits, and 2 Meliras look disproportionately few compared to 4 sac outlets and 4 Persist dudes. It also has no maindeck disruption that doesn't have legs (notably, it has no maindeck way to actually kill an opposing Scavenging Ooze). So what do you all think the 2 missing cards are? Anafenzas? Lands? 1 Plains and 1 Anafenza? 2 Abrupt Decays?
It does look like a hybrid of what I'm on (more Goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary, only KotR targets are Township and Tec Edge) and a more all-in list (Chord, more combo pieces, seemingly no maindeck removal instants). 2 Spellskites look weird in a Chord list, though, especially when they're such early self-tempo killers.
Live streaming Casual Magic: the Gathering
Sundays at 7:00 PM Eastern Time / 4:00 PM Pacific Time
Follow along on Instagram (@kokoshomebrews) as I create casual tribal decks
and try to build around crazy combos, then play em on stream!
|| WBG || GW || GB || GWU ||
I think you want 2 Skites in a list with no removals. You give yourself more chances to counter Twin and protect your combo (aka ignoring your opponent's plan).
I guess the 2 Meliras are here because of Infect supposedly expected ?
I'm gonna try the list, looks interesting.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Congratulations! Do you want me to add your list to the OP?
Live streaming Casual Magic: the Gathering
Sundays at 7:00 PM Eastern Time / 4:00 PM Pacific Time
Follow along on Instagram (@kokoshomebrews) as I create casual tribal decks
and try to build around crazy combos, then play em on stream!
|| WBG || GW || GB || GWU ||
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
If you're not a Murderous Redcap/Blood Artist/Blasting Station/etc. fan, I guess there's Scrying for the other "Melira" (i.e. get Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit if you have Melira and vice versa), then comboing off again, this time continuously saccing Finks in response to Anafenza's newest "Bolster 1" trigger. By the time all the Bolster triggers resolve, all your guys are infinite/infinite, and if you have Cartel Aristocrat out, they'd better have colourless blockers or Cryptic Command.
Live streaming Casual Magic: the Gathering
Sundays at 7:00 PM Eastern Time / 4:00 PM Pacific Time
Follow along on Instagram (@kokoshomebrews) as I create casual tribal decks
and try to build around crazy combos, then play em on stream!
|| WBG || GW || GB || GWU ||
That's a good point in stacking the Bolster triggers. Makes a good case for running more Anafenza's than I have been.
Also means that Cartel Aristocrat is better than Bloodthrone vampire (who I had been running for the easier cast cost).
Thanks for some good food for thought.
Can you explain how either the mirror or twin matchup wins if the infinite life combo has already hit the deck/been used?
Round 1 0-2 vs RG Tron
Worst matchup possible. Not much to say here.
Round 2 2-1 vs Naya Zoo
Game 1 we both flooded, but he had a Raging Ravine. Game 2 and 3 I crushed him.
Round 3 2-1 vs UR Twin
Game 1 I had no removal and he won before me. Game 2 I crushed him, game 3 I had to make my guys infinitely large with the Melira+Anafenza+Seer+Kitchen Finks trick (stack a ton of bolster triggers, then let them all resolve).
Round 4 2-1 vs UWR Control
I was flooded in 2 of the 3 games, but still managed to get there. This matchup is definitely good for us.
Round 5 1-1-1 vs RG Tron
I know the guy, I offered him a draw before the match so we could postpone our win-and-in to the following round, he declined. I beat him g1, we asked the judge if we could still draw and he said we could. This matchup is still miserable, I just won because his Pyroclasm didn't come until turn 3 when I had already gone infinite.
Round 6 2-0 vs Jund
This was not even remotely fair. They have no way to beat us realistically.
Top 8: Quarterfinals 2-1 vs Burn
I was on the draw for every match in the top 8 (7th place after Swiss). I narrowly lost game 1 because he had Lightning Helix (otherwise no way to kill me due to his low life total and Eidolon of the Great Revel), and won games 2 and 3, both of which were good games. Collected Company was the only reason I won the match, the card is absurd.
Semifinals 2-0 vs Mirror (with Chords)
On the draw game 1, I gained infinite life turn 3 and killed him turn 4 after scrying into the 4th land and having Redcap in hand. Game 2 on the draw, he gained infinite life turn 4, I sacrificed my mana dork and Fauna Shaman to scry into my second black source, untapped and killed him with Redcap.
Finals 1-2 vs Grixis Delver
On the draw game 1 I crushed him. He died with 2 Stubborn Denials in his hand. Game 2 I flooded hard and died with three lands in hand. Game 3 he was complaining loudly about his Delvers not flipping for several turns while attacking me with a Tasigur, and I never hit my fourth land and died with Collected Company and Murderous Redcap in hand the turn after he flipped both Delvers.
Overall the deck was excellent. I want to fit in one Chord of Calling in the maindeck. I don't want to cut an Abrupt Decay, so I'm going down to 29 creatures. I'll probably cut a Voice.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Strictly speaking, all you can actually do is arbitrarily high finite life and arbitrarily high finite damage (and arbitrarily large but finite power on your creatures). You've got to pick a finite number--otherwise, even if each loop took a nanosecond, finishing infinitely many loops would still take an infinite amount of time.
Say your Twin/mirror opponent kills your "Melira" while you've got the Finks version of the combo out. You go
infinitearbitrarily large finite in response. You're now at a googolplex life. Then "Melira" dies. Then they go off for a googolplex + million damage and you can no longer gain more life in response. That's how they win through "infinite" life.If that is the case why don't you simply go through the motions to get towards a large finite number of life. After about ten minutes of going through the process of getting a huge amount of life, wouldn't most people concede the match? Conversely if you have 10,000 life because you got the combo out, and then the opponent sets up a combo and kills your combo, can you force them to actually go through the motions? I am unsure of the rules regarding slow play on this issue.