You will want to watch out for viscera seer and leaving chords in your hand. When I was playing U-tron I would inevitably win if I resolved even a value mindslaver because of seer's ability to sac your entire board.
U-Tron (and any Tron) matchup has been really tricky for me. Main ways I've won is by stalling them early with tidehollow sculler, aven mindcensor and phyrexian revoker. However, normally if they get Tron lands online I've lost...
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Can someone explain someone to me why walking Ballista is better than blood right invocater? I have seen alot of list than use Ballista but no one is using invocater and I was just curious.
Ballista actually does something outside of the combo. Bloodrite Invoker is just a 3 mana 3/1 if you don't have infinite mana. Not being a hit for CoCo is a big strike against Ballista, though. Some lists play Rhonas the Indomitable or Mirror Entity for that reason.
I have a question about the druid/vizier combo. Lets say both are in play and I tap the druid for mana and it gets path'd in response. Can I re-use the ability to tap it for mana again and still make infinite mana? or does it just die outright? Thanks for the info.
I have a question about the druid/vizier combo. Lets say both are in play and I tap the druid for mana and it gets path'd in response. Can I re-use the ability to tap it for mana again and still make infinite mana? or does it just die outright? Thanks for the info.
Yes you can just keep untapping it as many times as you want. It makes trying to remove druid after you have untapped highly risky. There are many ways in which an untapped druid punishes opponents.
But with it being a one of, it doesnt seem like you would see the card that often and the ability for invoker to just win on the spot seems like it is just too good to pass up. I guess I havnt done enough testing but it does seem weird to me.
But with it being a one of, it doesnt seem like you would see the card that often and the ability for invoker to just win on the spot seems like it is just too good to pass up. I guess I havnt done enough testing but it does seem weird to me.
Ballista has the same upside with infinite Mana and the benefit that it's also good without the combo online (especially with all the ramp we have).
Not saying it would be bad. But that we only need a couple tutor targets and we also want to have utility in our Mana sink (Duskwatch is decent off combo, as is ballista, and Rhonas.
Spotted this 5-0 on the list today. Pretty interesting ideas there. Emrakul seems like a concession to time on modo but it sure is good with those Nahiris. I have found Nahiri to be pretty powerful in my sideboard. It's for sure an interesting idea.
Few things I'd do differently but it's nice to see someone else placing with Naya. Wolf run really is ridiculous sometimes. Be interested to hear how those knights are, I've been on the fence about trying it, and seems like if you're gonna play them playing a lot is good.
Spotted this 5-0 on the list today. Pretty interesting ideas there. Emrakul seems like a concession to time on modo but it sure is good with those Nahiris. I have found Nahiri to be pretty powerful in my sideboard. It's for sure an interesting idea.
Few things I'd do differently but it's nice to see someone else placing with Naya. Wolf run really is ridiculous sometimes. Be interested to hear how those knights are, I've been on the fence about trying it, and seems like if you're gonna play them playing a lot is good.
Interesting. Nahiri puts a different kind of pressure on your opponent while still threatening the combo. The nice fact that you can get Emrakul with both Nahiri and via Duskwatch is nice.
I have all the pieces, maybe I'll give it a whirl for kicks.
It feels like if you're playing 3 Finks and 4 Viziers, you might as well play a Singleton Viscera Seer to chord for, probably with a black source to fetch, but one might consider that BoP is enough black sources.
Also, a Ghost Quarter in the 75, potentially over the 2nd Wolf Run might be interesting.
Spotted this 5-0 on the list today. Pretty interesting ideas there. Emrakul seems like a concession to time on modo but it sure is good with those Nahiris. I have found Nahiri to be pretty powerful in my sideboard. It's for sure an interesting idea.
Few things I'd do differently but it's nice to see someone else placing with Naya. Wolf run really is ridiculous sometimes. Be interested to hear how those knights are, I've been on the fence about trying it, and seems like if you're gonna play them playing a lot is good.
So the more I think on this list, the less I like it. Nahiri is slow, and best with some amount of protection/removal which we dont have a ton of. I guess Collected Company / finks make good recurring blockers for her; but if theyre going to survive long enough for Nahiri to ult, then we're probably going to combo anyways.
Seems a bit win-more to me. But I've been wrong and will still give it a try.
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
What is your current list and sideboard like? I think I've got my 60 sorted; but sideboard is up in the air.
This is my current 75 post play testing last night. The only cards I'm currently looking to potentially slot in the board would be a 2nd Tireless Tracker for Grindier MUs and a Stony Silence to back up Kataki just as cross hate for Ad Naus, Tron Variants. Other than that I'm pretty set on everything else.
This is very close to my list mainboard.
I have the following changes:
+1 Spellskite
+1 Eldritch Evolution
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Township (I run 21 land - with 3 Forest, 1 Plains, 1 Township)
-I was also running Fairgrounds Warden over Fiend Hunter (mainly because that is what I had handy, but it does only cost 1 white)
Its been working well so far - still not quite sure on 21 land with only 1 Township.
In the board I'm running 3x Leyline of Sanctity which helps a lot against the Thoughtseize/Inquistion/Liliana decks (and makes burn cry as well)
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
What is your current list and sideboard like? I think I've got my 60 sorted; but sideboard is up in the air.
This is my current 75 post play testing last night. The only cards I'm currently looking to potentially slot in the board would be a 2nd Tireless Tracker for Grindier MUs and a Stony Silence to back up Kataki just as cross hate for Ad Naus, Tron Variants. Other than that I'm pretty set on everything else.
This is very close to my list mainboard.
I have the following changes:
+1 Spellskite
+1 Eldritch Evolution
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Township (I run 21 land - with 3 Forest, 1 Plains, 1 Township)
-I was also running Fairgrounds Warden over Fiend Hunter (mainly because that is what I had handy, but it does only cost 1 white)
Its been working well so far - still not quite sure on 21 land with only 1 Township.
In the board I'm running 3x Leyline of Sanctity which helps a lot against the Thoughtseize/Inquistion/Liliana decks (and makes burn cry as well)
How has Leyline treated you? Its something I'm considering to shore up those matchups; as they tend to be the worst (aside from URx Control decks, but those arent a huge meta consideration right now)
My main holdup on Leyline is it's not exactly good off CoCo/Chord; so I'd likely be cutting 1-2 of those and then 1-2 dorks to fit them in, and to keep critical mass of creatures so that CoCo isnt questionable.
How has Leyline treated you? Its something I'm considering to shore up those matchups; as they tend to be the worst (aside from URx Control decks, but those arent a huge meta consideration right now)
Leyline has been good. My first list was pure GW with no Finks (it only had Archangel/Feeder for lifegain), so I needed 4x Leyline for the burn matchup.
After running that list once I moved to the abzan splash with 2 Visera Seer/4 Finks (as above), so burn was much less of an issue.
My meta has a lot of 8-rack, Death Shadow, Jund/Abzan - basically decks with at least 6-8 1-mana discard + Lili of the Veil.
Leyline is great to side in there. Three Leylines seems about right as its hard to find sideboard space, plus you don't want to dilute the main-deck that much.
Also having Spellskites main is great. Leyline/spellskite into Druid/Vizier makes comboing a lot safer.
My main holdup on Leyline is it's not exactly good off CoCo/Chord; so I'd likely be cutting 1-2 of those and then 1-2 dorks to fit them in, and to keep critical mass of creatures so that CoCo isnt questionable.
I run 4 Chord 4 Coco 1 Evo.
Against discard/attrition decks I would usually cut the 1x Evo as it is easy to get stranded with no creatures. Likely I would cut 1-2 dorks and possibly 1 Chord/Coco.
I'm also not opposed to siding into a 61 card deck.
So one nuanced line of play I I'd like to share with everyone that makes a much bigger difference than you think and it seems to get missed a lot:
T1: Birds
T2: Druid
T3: You go to chord for Vizier.
The most common line I've seen from Coco pilots is to Chord for 2; and the most common play from an opponent I've found is to hold removal until you threaten the combo (e.g. cast Chord)
In this situation, Chord for 3. Always.
Two outcomes:
1) They bolt/path your Druid with Chord on the stack. Fine; make sure Druid ends up in the GY (via -1/-1 counters if path). Get Renegade Rallier. Effectively theyve sunk their removal on absolutely nothing except essentially a one turn fog, and you've built board presence.
2) They respond with removal AFTER Chord resolves. We have infinite mana at instant speed. Float a ton of it, let the removal resolve, do what you need to do.
So one nuanced line of play I I'd like to share with everyone that makes a much bigger difference than you think and it seems to get missed a lot:
T1: Birds
T2: Druid
T3: You go to chord for Vizier.
The most common line I've seen from Coco pilots is to Chord for 2; and the most common play from an opponent I've found is to hold removal until you threaten the combo (e.g. cast Chord)
In this situation, Chord for 3. Always.
Two outcomes:
1) They bolt/path your Druid with Chord on the stack. Fine; make sure Druid ends up in the GY (via -1/-1 counters if path). Get Renegade Rallier. Effectively theyve sunk their removal on absolutely nothing except essentially a one turn fog, and you've built board presence.
2) They respond with removal AFTER Chord resolves. We have infinite mana at instant speed. Float a ton of it, let the removal resolve, do what you need to do.
This is a tactic I've opted to use in a number of games where opponent is holding up free land in my turn. Also puts you in a strong position if you can wait until the end of their turn. You can either utilise them tapping out (obviously unlikely if they're holding up removal) or, can respond to something they've played (i.e. Needing pridemage, spellskite, selfless spirit, flickerwisp etc) or even continue with your own plan.
Important to remember that you can always chose a creature for less than 3 if needed.
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So the more I think on this list, the less I like it. Nahiri is slow, and best with some amount of protection/removal which we dont have a ton of. I guess Collected Company / finks make good recurring blockers for her; but if theyre going to survive long enough for Nahiri to ult, then we're probably going to combo anyways.
Seems a bit win-more to me. But I've been wrong and will still give it a try.
Generally I agree with you about the list. Lots of things I would do differently. I'm sure I would cut one temple garden for an overgrown tomb and slip a viscera seer in there at least if playing finks.
The sideboard is intentionally incomplete as I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on this before I finalize it.
The cards at hand and their roles: Abrupt Decay: Catch all 3cmc removal. Generally broad; dont want to run too much as it's not chord/coco friendly. Anafenza: I'm not sold on this spot. I need something for GY hate; and this seems to be the best solution that's asymmetrical. Living end and Dredge are still tricky, though. Burrenton Forge-tender: Pretty straight forward. May swap for a Kor Firewalker, but BFT is better for Anger of the Gods we might see. Eidolon: Storm; with splash uses on decks that we want to try to keep tempo parity with. Linvala: Mirror Path to Exile: Obviously when removal is needed. I feel like 3x is the right number Sideboard. Pharika: For decks that run heavy removal. Creates yet another value engine and chumps death's shadow very well. Nice utility. Phyrexian Revoker: Obviously a pithing needle on wheels. I like this against Tron where we can normally combo off T3-T4 uninterrupted, but if we need to buy a few turns this shuts down Karn in a pinch. Qasali Pridemage: I feel like I should just board this in 100% of the time. Most decks are going to be running Cages or RIP against us sideboard. May as well have it proactively.
Other thoughts:
I've noticed an uptick in surgical extraction / extirpate effected on MTGO lately. I'm considering a singleton Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit as an alternate means to combo infinite life off finks, in the face of an extraction on Vizier (Which seems to be the pick, as people have figured out its the common card in two combos). Thoughts on this gameplan?
Open to any other criticism. I'd say the least used card mainboard of mine is the Selfless Spirit; but every so often it gets me there. I'm almost inclined to swap that for the Anafenza.
I'm also feeling like a Fiend Hunter should be in the 75. Normally he just feels like a dead draw, but if we're expecting Linvala in the mirror (or in other white decks) we need a tutorable way to deal with it.
More thoughts on matchups (or specifically, the bad ones):
- Living End is a pain. Remember to kill your Druid in response to a living end cascade spell. You want this in your graveyard when it resolves. Once they land a Living end it tends to be a 2-turn clock. Having the druid on board can be the difference between a combo finish and dying quickly. Generally unfavored
- Death and Taxes can be tricky. Between their tax effects, sideboard options, and ability to manipulate your ability to search / tutor, it can be rather tough. Tax their removal as much as possible, and often I'll find myself leaning on Duskwatch Recruiter to find missing combo pieces rather than CoCo/Chord. Slightly unfavored but close
- URx Control still feels impossible. They have the same level of recursion and resiliance as us with Snapcaster, and they run a LOT of removal that hits us. Electrolyze, Bolts, Snapcaster, makes it really tough to get a combo online. Generally ends up being a fair gameplan here. Gavony Township and Finks tend to be the MVP. Way unfavored
Other than these 3, I feel pretty good in most matchups. Death's Shadow can be very swingy. They have a lot of pressure and discard, but if you can constantly threaten the combo, its pretty probable you can stick it at some point. Grixis Death's Shadow is another story. Similar to the URx control above. They dont generally have Snapcaster, but they have removal and a faster clock than URx control.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Modern
Value Town
Amulet Titan
Legacy
4C Loam
My Peasant Cube
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/11667
Yes you can just keep untapping it as many times as you want. It makes trying to remove druid after you have untapped highly risky. There are many ways in which an untapped druid punishes opponents.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Ballista has the same upside with infinite Mana and the benefit that it's also good without the combo online (especially with all the ramp we have).
Not saying it would be bad. But that we only need a couple tutor targets and we also want to have utility in our Mana sink (Duskwatch is decent off combo, as is ballista, and Rhonas.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fairgrounds Warden
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stony Silence
Spotted this 5-0 on the list today. Pretty interesting ideas there. Emrakul seems like a concession to time on modo but it sure is good with those Nahiris. I have found Nahiri to be pretty powerful in my sideboard. It's for sure an interesting idea.
Few things I'd do differently but it's nice to see someone else placing with Naya. Wolf run really is ridiculous sometimes. Be interested to hear how those knights are, I've been on the fence about trying it, and seems like if you're gonna play them playing a lot is good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Interesting. Nahiri puts a different kind of pressure on your opponent while still threatening the combo. The nice fact that you can get Emrakul with both Nahiri and via Duskwatch is nice.
I have all the pieces, maybe I'll give it a whirl for kicks.
Also, a Ghost Quarter in the 75, potentially over the 2nd Wolf Run might be interesting.
So the more I think on this list, the less I like it. Nahiri is slow, and best with some amount of protection/removal which we dont have a ton of. I guess Collected Company / finks make good recurring blockers for her; but if theyre going to survive long enough for Nahiri to ult, then we're probably going to combo anyways.
Seems a bit win-more to me. But I've been wrong and will still give it a try.
This is very close to my list mainboard.
I have the following changes:
+1 Spellskite
+1 Eldritch Evolution
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Township (I run 21 land - with 3 Forest, 1 Plains, 1 Township)
-I was also running Fairgrounds Warden over Fiend Hunter (mainly because that is what I had handy, but it does only cost 1 white)
Its been working well so far - still not quite sure on 21 land with only 1 Township.
In the board I'm running 3x Leyline of Sanctity which helps a lot against the Thoughtseize/Inquistion/Liliana decks (and makes burn cry as well)
How has Leyline treated you? Its something I'm considering to shore up those matchups; as they tend to be the worst (aside from URx Control decks, but those arent a huge meta consideration right now)
My main holdup on Leyline is it's not exactly good off CoCo/Chord; so I'd likely be cutting 1-2 of those and then 1-2 dorks to fit them in, and to keep critical mass of creatures so that CoCo isnt questionable.
Leyline has been good. My first list was pure GW with no Finks (it only had Archangel/Feeder for lifegain), so I needed 4x Leyline for the burn matchup.
After running that list once I moved to the abzan splash with 2 Visera Seer/4 Finks (as above), so burn was much less of an issue.
My meta has a lot of 8-rack, Death Shadow, Jund/Abzan - basically decks with at least 6-8 1-mana discard + Lili of the Veil.
Leyline is great to side in there. Three Leylines seems about right as its hard to find sideboard space, plus you don't want to dilute the main-deck that much.
Also having Spellskites main is great. Leyline/spellskite into Druid/Vizier makes comboing a lot safer.
I run 4 Chord 4 Coco 1 Evo.
Against discard/attrition decks I would usually cut the 1x Evo as it is easy to get stranded with no creatures. Likely I would cut 1-2 dorks and possibly 1 Chord/Coco.
I'm also not opposed to siding into a 61 card deck.
T1: Birds
T2: Druid
T3: You go to chord for Vizier.
The most common line I've seen from Coco pilots is to Chord for 2; and the most common play from an opponent I've found is to hold removal until you threaten the combo (e.g. cast Chord)
In this situation, Chord for 3. Always.
Two outcomes:
1) They bolt/path your Druid with Chord on the stack. Fine; make sure Druid ends up in the GY (via -1/-1 counters if path). Get Renegade Rallier. Effectively theyve sunk their removal on absolutely nothing except essentially a one turn fog, and you've built board presence.
2) They respond with removal AFTER Chord resolves. We have infinite mana at instant speed. Float a ton of it, let the removal resolve, do what you need to do.
This is a tactic I've opted to use in a number of games where opponent is holding up free land in my turn. Also puts you in a strong position if you can wait until the end of their turn. You can either utilise them tapping out (obviously unlikely if they're holding up removal) or, can respond to something they've played (i.e. Needing pridemage, spellskite, selfless spirit, flickerwisp etc) or even continue with your own plan.
Important to remember that you can always chose a creature for less than 3 if needed.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Generally I agree with you about the list. Lots of things I would do differently. I'm sure I would cut one temple garden for an overgrown tomb and slip a viscera seer in there at least if playing finks.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Here's where I'm at:
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Spells:
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Viscera Seer
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Path to Exile
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
The sideboard is intentionally incomplete as I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on this before I finalize it.
The cards at hand and their roles:
Abrupt Decay: Catch all 3cmc removal. Generally broad; dont want to run too much as it's not chord/coco friendly.
Anafenza: I'm not sold on this spot. I need something for GY hate; and this seems to be the best solution that's asymmetrical. Living end and Dredge are still tricky, though.
Burrenton Forge-tender: Pretty straight forward. May swap for a Kor Firewalker, but BFT is better for Anger of the Gods we might see.
Eidolon: Storm; with splash uses on decks that we want to try to keep tempo parity with.
Linvala: Mirror
Path to Exile: Obviously when removal is needed. I feel like 3x is the right number Sideboard.
Pharika: For decks that run heavy removal. Creates yet another value engine and chumps death's shadow very well. Nice utility.
Phyrexian Revoker: Obviously a pithing needle on wheels. I like this against Tron where we can normally combo off T3-T4 uninterrupted, but if we need to buy a few turns this shuts down Karn in a pinch.
Qasali Pridemage: I feel like I should just board this in 100% of the time. Most decks are going to be running Cages or RIP against us sideboard. May as well have it proactively.
Other thoughts:
I've noticed an uptick in surgical extraction / extirpate effected on MTGO lately. I'm considering a singleton Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit as an alternate means to combo infinite life off finks, in the face of an extraction on Vizier (Which seems to be the pick, as people have figured out its the common card in two combos). Thoughts on this gameplan?
Open to any other criticism. I'd say the least used card mainboard of mine is the Selfless Spirit; but every so often it gets me there. I'm almost inclined to swap that for the Anafenza.
I'm also feeling like a Fiend Hunter should be in the 75. Normally he just feels like a dead draw, but if we're expecting Linvala in the mirror (or in other white decks) we need a tutorable way to deal with it.
More thoughts on matchups (or specifically, the bad ones):
- Living End is a pain. Remember to kill your Druid in response to a living end cascade spell. You want this in your graveyard when it resolves. Once they land a Living end it tends to be a 2-turn clock. Having the druid on board can be the difference between a combo finish and dying quickly. Generally unfavored
- Death and Taxes can be tricky. Between their tax effects, sideboard options, and ability to manipulate your ability to search / tutor, it can be rather tough. Tax their removal as much as possible, and often I'll find myself leaning on Duskwatch Recruiter to find missing combo pieces rather than CoCo/Chord. Slightly unfavored but close
- URx Control still feels impossible. They have the same level of recursion and resiliance as us with Snapcaster, and they run a LOT of removal that hits us. Electrolyze, Bolts, Snapcaster, makes it really tough to get a combo online. Generally ends up being a fair gameplan here. Gavony Township and Finks tend to be the MVP. Way unfavored
Other than these 3, I feel pretty good in most matchups. Death's Shadow can be very swingy. They have a lot of pressure and discard, but if you can constantly threaten the combo, its pretty probable you can stick it at some point. Grixis Death's Shadow is another story. Similar to the URx control above. They dont generally have Snapcaster, but they have removal and a faster clock than URx control.