Vizier of Remedies combos with Devoted Druid to make infinite Green mana.
Good point.
What, like,
-1 Melira
-1 Wall of Roots I guess
-1 something
+1 Vizier
+1 Devoted Druid
+1 infinite mana payoff?
Assuming the payoff is some sort of infinite damage, it would be infinite dmg that doesn't use the graveyard or the combat step which is something I don't believe we had access to before.
Maybe it'd be something like Duskwatch Recruiter for card advantage? It's not like the cost to play the combo is high. They're all cards that aren't the most unreasonable to play just normally.(I've seen lists get results with Recruiter)
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Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
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Vizier of Remedies combos with Devoted Druid to make infinite Green mana.
Good point.
What, like,
-1 Melira
-1 Wall of Roots I guess
-1 something
+1 Vizier
+1 Devoted Druid
+1 infinite mana payoff?
Seems reasonable to me. The opportunity cost is pretty low since, as you implied, the difference between Vizier of Remedies & Melira and Wall of Roots & Devoted Druid is not much. As for mana sinks, you'd ideally want a Chord target. Devoted Druid doesn't have Defender, so you could do something with Ezuri or Mirror Entity. Duskwatch lets you draw all your creatures and stack your deck, I'm not sure if you can win in that turn since it's only Green mana.
EDIT: Could use some judge input, does Duskwatch allow you to do easy stacking of your deck like with infinite Scrys? In that case, you could win the turn you assemble Vizier + Druid + Duskwatch using the infinite Bolster combo if you have Tracker in your deck and haven't played land for the turn.
You play Tracker and Finks with Green, then play land and crack a Clue to get your stacked Company. Stack your deck again to put Seer and Anafenza in a Company. If you have Thune+ Feeder, you could do something similar with a Chord.
Doesn't matter a ton expect unless the opponent is combo'ing or has sweepers, since you should be able to win the turn after against most decks after drawing all your creatures and stacking your deck.
Vizier of Remedies combos with Devoted Druid to make infinite Green mana.
Good point.
What, like,
-1 Melira
-1 Wall of Roots I guess
-1 something
+1 Vizier
+1 Devoted Druid
+1 infinite mana payoff?
Seems reasonable to me. The opportunity cost is pretty low since, as you implied, the difference between Vizier of Remedies & Melira and Wall of Roots & Devoted Druid is not much. As for mana sinks, you'd ideally want a Chord target. Devoted Druid doesn't have Defender, so you could do something with Ezuri or Mirror Entity. Duskwatch lets you draw all your creatures and stack your deck, I'm not sure if you can win in that turn since it's only Green mana.
EDIT: Could use some judge input, does Duskwatch allow you to do easy stacking of your deck like with infinite Scrys? In that case, you could win the turn you assemble Vizier + Druid + Duskwatch using the infinite Bolster combo if you have Tracker in your deck and haven't played land for the turn.
You play Tracker and Finks with Green, then play land and crack a Clue to get your stacked Company. Stack your deck again to put Seer and Anafenza in a Company. If you have Thune+ Feeder, you could do something similar with a Chord.
Doesn't matter a ton expect unless the opponent is combo'ing or has sweepers, since you should be able to win the turn after against most decks after drawing all your creatures and stacking your deck.
You can also run Quillspike. It goes infinitely large with Devoted Druid. Honestly with the new Melira Subsitute I'm thinking about making a 4 Devoted Druid deck running the Angel/Feeder combo, Persist combo (redcap/finks), and Quillspike/Druid. CoCo/Chord to find things and Reveillark gets back quite a few combos by itself.
Would a single Genesis Wave be a possible consideration? Doesn't quite fit the overall gameplan of the deck being creature heavy, but would be nice to flood the board and hit all the combo pieces you needed.
On a different note, does Saffi Eriksdotter have any place in the deck? Have people tried and tested it? Any results?
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Would a single Genesis Wave be a possible consideration? Doesn't quite fit the overall gameplan of the deck being creature heavy, but would be nice to flood the board and hit all the combo pieces you needed.
On a different note, does Saffi Eriksdotter have any place in the deck? Have people tried and tested it? Any results?
Saffi just doesn't do enough on her own. If you have Rallier and Seer out you get infinite scry 1 which is nice, but otherwise you are just trying to value a target. If you want to take the deck in the Project X direction with Crypt Champion that's another storythough.
Genesis Wave just doesn't do enough for the mana cost. At 7 mana it becomes comparable to Collected Company, but by that point you really might as well start running Tooth and Nail with an infinite combo.
Would a single Genesis Wave be a possible consideration? Doesn't quite fit the overall gameplan of the deck being creature heavy, but would be nice to flood the board and hit all the combo pieces you needed.
On a different note, does Saffi Eriksdotter have any place in the deck? Have people tried and tested it? Any results?
Genesis Wave actually crossed my mind. It's cute but the payoff card has to be something that's reasonable to begin with. Genesis Wave is ***** even at 7-9 mana. Duskwatch Recruiter is a reasonable card to play by itself.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I d rather cut Anafenza than Melira, because Anafenza is harder on the mana and Melira actually helps a lot against Infect (how high do you guys value the +1 +1 counters from Anafenza?)
Payoff should probably be something that can be chorded for so that you have virtual 5 ways to find it. My first thought was emrakul, but you dont get the extra turn when you chord for him (still might be enough, but maybe we can do better)
Cutting Anafenza is a big no-no. She's hard on the mana but the +1 +1 counters from her is reliably contributes to the beatdown plan(which is our primary plan before combo in most matchups). She also provides infinite bolster triggers with Melira. Never cut her.
I'm gonna veto both your options. It's not worth running *****ty cards that aren't at least decent by themselves for this combo because it's not a particularly strong combo really. What makes it worth playing at all is that the opportunity cost is so low(that all 3 creatures are reasonable by themselves) That's why Duskwatch Recruiter is really the best payoff AFAIK because that card's actually going to do something if you don't assemble the fragile 3 creature combo that's easily disrupted.(Who the hell wants an Invoker or Emrakul stuck in there hand?)
100% do not run more than 1 of each. This is a backup combo because it's far less of an instant game-win than any others. Like I said, it needs to be as low impact as possible on the rest of the list because the payoff isn't instantly winning the game. Hence why I think only 1 of each.(ESPECIALLY only 1 devoted druid, Wall of Roots is an immensely useful card that is miles ahead of Devoted Druid)
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I've cut black from the deck entirely. The melira combo is essentially worse than this combo in every single way. It doesn't even make sense to run the melira combo in your deck considering how bad it is now. Real excited about this though, also remember to bring an alternative to walking ballista so you can get around stony silence
I've cut black from the deck entirely. The melira combo is essentially worse than this combo in every single way. It doesn't even make sense to run the melira combo in your deck considering how bad it is now. Real excited about this though, also remember to bring an alternative to walking ballista so you can get around stony silence
Cant coco or chord for ballista. Seems super bad.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
You coco or chord for duskwatch recruiter who draws your whole deck or you play ballista from hand
Ah, that makes more sense. I don't think it's necessarily batter than any of the melira combos(remember you lose the infinite bolster combo cutting black). It'd be interesting if this allow GW company to be a decent deck(instead of just some random thing Todd Stevens does)
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Infinite bolster is irrelevant when we can win through ensnaring bridge, through graveyard hate, and draw any silver bullets we need to clear the way while doing it. It also only requires 2 cards on board, both of which are very playable, as in not just do nothing on their own. The combo is just straight up better than Melira Seer Finks imo
Cutting the melira combo just seems wrong honestly. Cutting Melira seems reasonable for Vizier of Remedies, but you already are going to be running Kitchen Finks in the deck as it's just an amazing card. Having even just a one of Seer (or any sac outlet) that you can chord for seems pretty reasonable considering you are already running the other 2/3rds of the combo.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
My deck consists of 10 cards I can use to go infinite while they're in hand. 4 Duskwatch Recruiter 4 Chord of Calling, and 2 Walking ballista. Reasonably we always have 1 of those in hand, it's 1/6 cards in our deck, in playtesting I don't recall a single time I would have rather chorded for a seer than my infinite combo
My deck consists of 10 cards I can use to go infinite while they're in hand. 4 Duskwatch Recruiter 4 Chord of Calling, and 2 Walking ballista. Reasonably we always have 1 of those in hand, it's 1/6 cards in our deck, in playtesting I don't recall a single time I would have rather chorded for a seer than my infinite combo
You have to remember what you give up by cutting black in terms of sideboard as well. No Fulminators, no Pontiff, no discard(not as big but thoughtseize is common) No Sculler/Sin Collecter. Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse. Your matchup against combo becomes abysmal. All you have is, what, canonist and eidolon?
It's worth testing and bringing to events but I'm definitely skeptical.
So are you guys paying attention to the new toy in Amonkhet? Vizier of Remedies should have a home here...
Scroll up and you'll see tons of discussion.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I wouldn't say our matchup becomes abysmal considering we're essentially become much faster combo wise. You can go off turn 3 very easily with this deck, something abzan coco was not as good at. Also yeah, you can splash black, one overgrown tomb wouldn't hurt if you wanted to add some sideboard cards. But you're also gaining Rest In Peace by not having the combo, and Rest In Peace I find really good right now against Deaths shadow decks. Also we are much less vulnerable to blood moon by being 2 colors, and a black splash would be very easy, even swap birds for nobles. I just find that I don't need black, deck functions fine without it.
I actually really like the idea of going gw. We can use the infinite mana combo with duskwatch as well as feeder thune combo and that way nothing is disturbed by graveyard hate. You only really need 1 ballista, maybe 2, and you can just have reclamation sage in the side to get rid of stony silence with only the green mana generated comboing off.
But the vizier does not prevent persist counters, correct? Since they enter with them I don't believe so.
Also this was asked before but I did not see it answered: if we generate infinite mana with recruiter out, is it a valid shortcut to just take my deck and put any creatures in my hand and then stack it?
I believe it does prevent persist counters which is pretty great with finks. Also I'm not sure that shortcut works, but I'm assuming you're opponent just scoops after they see it
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Good point.
What, like,
-1 Melira
-1 Wall of Roots I guess
-1 something
+1 Vizier
+1 Devoted Druid
+1 infinite mana payoff?
Assuming the payoff is some sort of infinite damage, it would be infinite dmg that doesn't use the graveyard or the combat step which is something I don't believe we had access to before.
Maybe it'd be something like Duskwatch Recruiter for card advantage? It's not like the cost to play the combo is high. They're all cards that aren't the most unreasonable to play just normally.(I've seen lists get results with Recruiter)
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
EDIT: Could use some judge input, does Duskwatch allow you to do easy stacking of your deck like with infinite Scrys? In that case, you could win the turn you assemble Vizier + Druid + Duskwatch using the infinite Bolster combo if you have Tracker in your deck and haven't played land for the turn.
You play Tracker and Finks with Green, then play land and crack a Clue to get your stacked Company. Stack your deck again to put Seer and Anafenza in a Company. If you have Thune+ Feeder, you could do something similar with a Chord.
Doesn't matter a ton expect unless the opponent is combo'ing or has sweepers, since you should be able to win the turn after against most decks after drawing all your creatures and stacking your deck.
You can also run Quillspike. It goes infinitely large with Devoted Druid. Honestly with the new Melira Subsitute I'm thinking about making a 4 Devoted Druid deck running the Angel/Feeder combo, Persist combo (redcap/finks), and Quillspike/Druid. CoCo/Chord to find things and Reveillark gets back quite a few combos by itself.
On a different note, does Saffi Eriksdotter have any place in the deck? Have people tried and tested it? Any results?
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Saffi just doesn't do enough on her own. If you have Rallier and Seer out you get infinite scry 1 which is nice, but otherwise you are just trying to value a target. If you want to take the deck in the Project X direction with Crypt Champion that's another storythough.
Genesis Wave just doesn't do enough for the mana cost. At 7 mana it becomes comparable to Collected Company, but by that point you really might as well start running Tooth and Nail with an infinite combo.
Genesis Wave actually crossed my mind. It's cute but the payoff card has to be something that's reasonable to begin with. Genesis Wave is ***** even at 7-9 mana. Duskwatch Recruiter is a reasonable card to play by itself.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Cutting Anafenza is a big no-no. She's hard on the mana but the +1 +1 counters from her is reliably contributes to the beatdown plan(which is our primary plan before combo in most matchups). She also provides infinite bolster triggers with Melira. Never cut her.
I'm gonna veto both your options. It's not worth running *****ty cards that aren't at least decent by themselves for this combo because it's not a particularly strong combo really. What makes it worth playing at all is that the opportunity cost is so low(that all 3 creatures are reasonable by themselves) That's why Duskwatch Recruiter is really the best payoff AFAIK because that card's actually going to do something if you don't assemble the fragile 3 creature combo that's easily disrupted.(Who the hell wants an Invoker or Emrakul stuck in there hand?)
100% do not run more than 1 of each. This is a backup combo because it's far less of an instant game-win than any others. Like I said, it needs to be as low impact as possible on the rest of the list because the payoff isn't instantly winning the game. Hence why I think only 1 of each.(ESPECIALLY only 1 devoted druid, Wall of Roots is an immensely useful card that is miles ahead of Devoted Druid)
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Cant coco or chord for ballista. Seems super bad.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Ah, that makes more sense. I don't think it's necessarily batter than any of the melira combos(remember you lose the infinite bolster combo cutting black). It'd be interesting if this allow GW company to be a decent deck(instead of just some random thing Todd Stevens does)
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Edit: Oh I see you are...lol.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
You have to remember what you give up by cutting black in terms of sideboard as well. No Fulminators, no Pontiff, no discard(not as big but thoughtseize is common) No Sculler/Sin Collecter. Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse. Your matchup against combo becomes abysmal. All you have is, what, canonist and eidolon?
It's worth testing and bringing to events but I'm definitely skeptical.
Scroll up and you'll see tons of discussion.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
But the vizier does not prevent persist counters, correct? Since they enter with them I don't believe so.
Also this was asked before but I did not see it answered: if we generate infinite mana with recruiter out, is it a valid shortcut to just take my deck and put any creatures in my hand and then stack it?