Dredge lost an effective Dredge 8 with the loss of Troll (they already play Stinkweed Imp, so the next highest Dredger is Golgari Thug), so they can't amass an army as reliably quick as before.
However, I believe Dredge is something for any deck to be wary of simply due to the resiliency of threats and the avenues it can exploit to win. And with recent tools like Reunion and Neonate providing a reliable way to initiate Dredge, I don't know if Troll-ban was enough.
Anyhow, before I ramble anymore, this is relevant to Abzan Company because we are not hard locked into a combo-focused build, and thus can use a more value-focused build instead should the need arise. And because Dredge is merely less reliable to fuel itself, that need is still there.
Does anyone think they can make a new banner for the primer? The current one is from the original thread. One with Seer + Anafenza + Melira + Finks + Redcap + Company + Chord would do since they are the main elements. Several people have offered to do it before but have all fallen through so I'm asking again.
Just a note, I've played this deck during dredge season, with a lot of local players here on dredge, and much graveyard hate.
However, my plan game 2/3 is often to move away from combo and graveyard synergies, taking out either chords or coco's and combo pieces go more value/hate.
I mean, grafdiggers cage is still a good card against us, but often I have the option of destroying it and chose not to, because I'm less reliant on the graveyard anyway, and just beat down.
Also, I find maelstrom pulse to be an amazing card and I bring it in almost every game 2/3, as it can answer any hate card, and is never dead.
I have considered using a red splash before, but only for Magus of the Moon and similar effects. While Keldon Marauders, I'm curious if it actually helps against our more troublesome matchups. Tron may indeed be outright a gamble at best regardless of our build, but what about, say Jeskai Nahiri?
On a side-note, since we already consider Aven Mindcensor to some extent, what about Leonin Arbiter as a cheaper, harder lock against decks that like to search their libraries more than we do? While it does prevent Chord of Calling and fetchlands from being as effective, it seems more reliable than the Mindcensor at slowing Tron and Jeskai Nahiri down.
One last question: if I were to jam Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to facilitate an easier time casting Murderous Redcap, what should I cut from the following land-base?
@EpicLevelCommoner - I chose Keldon Marauders for their low mana cost and resistance to removal spells. I'm hoping they add enough pressure to make some difference against tough matchups but we shall see.
If I do like the red splash I'm definitely adding a Magus of the Moon, just looking for enough reason to add the red.
I think Leonin Arbiter is worth a go but not sure I'd run Urborg.
For all the people using tireless tracker how do you feel about two congregation at dawn MB?
I was thinking EoT put missing pieces of the combo on top,draw on draw step for one,sac clue,draw,play both.
For all the people using tireless tracker how do you feel about two congregation at dawn MB?
I was thinking EoT put missing pieces of the combo on top,draw on draw step for one,sac clue,draw,play both.
Well, or the curve, you might play this turn 2 if enough copies (what do you take out??). That means you may draw your combo on turn 5. Is that later than you can chord for it? T5 in a fishbowl is pretty late in modern.
That's the problem,what to cut?My buddy and I are trying to estimate the value gained for the loss of whatever.My buddy suggested putting scooze in SB but I don't like that,its too relevant.I want to drop to 22 lands from 23, he thinks that's suicide. My reasoning is the eight mana dorks MB make it possible and makes room for one CoD.I figure at least try it for a bit and see if it ever comes up.
I was thinking turn one mana dork,turn two CoD at opponents EoT ,turn three coco into whatever is put on top. Guarantees we coco what we want plus our normal draw into hand.
For all the people using tireless tracker how do you feel about two congregation at dawn MB?
I was thinking EoT put missing pieces of the combo on top,draw on draw step for one,sac clue,draw,play both.
Congregation at dawn is card disadvantage. Not sure why you'd compare it to tireless tracker, which comes in for grindy matchups where the card advantage is the important part. You're not comboing against control anyway.
^ Not a comparison to Tracker, they're saying it works well with Tracker. When you have clues sitting around, Congregation guarantees that they get you gas.
I'm not sold on it, but I'll test pretty much anything haha. Had no idea the card existed before now tbh. Probably too cute, and yeah, not really playable in a vacuum because of the card disadvantage. I'd give it a shot as a one-of in the sideboard if I were playing it, and only bring it in when you're already boarding into the full four (or full three, depending on your build) Trackers, since it's only really a desirable effect when you have clues.
Of course, I'd probably just congregate for three more Trackers. Because VALUE.
Does anyone else think that Congregation would be better with CoCo than Tracker? Both together are pretty much an entwined Tooth and Nail for our deck.
Need to permanently exile something? Grab Viscera Seer and Fiend Hunter/Tidehollow Sculler.
Need to find two missing combo pieces asap? Go get them.
Granted there is probably a card in between Congregation at Dawn and Worldly Tutor that would be much better with Collected Company.
EDIT: And in a pinch you can fail to find and just shuffle. Unlikely to be useful, but never hurts to have options.
Congregation is awful. I'd sooner lower the curve, add some dorks and try Lead the Stampede.
I had a pretty good FNM with my stock list tonight; went 2 and 1, losing to myself against a budget prowess deck (mull to 5, chorded for witness 3x and then hit a coco and coco'd for a single noble hierarch; mull to 6, resolve 2 cocos and both single hit).
I think the bones of this deck are really solid still and we don't need to reinvent the wheel, just keep testing and incremental changes. I definitely need to update my sideboard.
I'm pretty excited about Deadeye Harpooner since vigilance is so rare, and it kills so many things. Most likely going to try it in the fiend hunter slot and see how that goes.
I mean yes it is net -1 CA, but if Vampiric Tutor in Vintage is any indication, you don't necessarily care about hand size if it is a matchup where the combo matters (including Tron).
I know this is theory-crafting until someone quantifies the probabilities, but imagine you are playing against Tron. You have 1x CoCo, 1x Dork, 2x lands, and any combo piece in your opening hand. Naturally you play land into Dork, then draw into Congregation T2. You cast it, getting Dork on top and the other necessary combo pieces just underneath. T3 you play the second Dork and maybe the combo piece if it CMC 2 or less. Then, during T4 upkeep, you cast CoCo and hit the two remaining combo pieces from before, scrying for Redcap before you draw into it (or the infinite life+bolster combo if you don't want to risk Redcap to Karn).
Again, unlikely to happen, but personally I believe it has merit against Tron where we need to combo asap.
3 mana is a lot more than 1, and a restriction of creatures is material. Card's been around long enough it woulda been figured out if it were good enough.
In technical terms it's both card and massive tempo disadvantage--you're spending 3 tempo to not affect the board, then going down a card.
1) Modern is a slower format than Vintage, correct? So 3-mana shouldn't be too much of stretch (granted it is tempo disadvantage as you said).
2) Our combos and synergies consist entirely of creatures, so the restriction of creatures is, for the most part irrelevant, especially if we are attempting to combo asap. Also I will cite Goblin Recruiter in old Legacy here for a similar effect.
3) This is probably your most valid point, and as such my best defense is to agree that it is bad in a vacuum, but good with CoCo. As before, Goblin Recruiter into Goblin Ringleader is basically 4 Goblin Matrons/Diabolic Tutors; it isn't much of a stretch to say Congregation into CoCo isn't unlike an entwined Tooth and Nail. And I bring up this interaction because CoCo was released quite some time after Congregation was. A similar 'revival' occurred with Nic Fit in legacy, this time due to the reprint of Veteran Explorer in the first Commander Players then discovered how strong it was with Cabal Therapy in a format with virtually no basics.
New cards are released as long as the game goes on, and while no one is expecting a combo with Savannah Lions to break any format, there is always the possibility that something fresh pops up.
Anyhow, once I figure out a suitable list, print the appropriate proxies, and find an experienced Tron player, I will grind those games out.
Congregation at Dawn was one of the very first cards looked at when Collected Company was spoiled and pod players were trying to figure a new strategy to replace pod. It's just not a good card, there's really no other way around it. We know what the card is, how it works, how it plays out in modern. Just put the card in the deck and take it to a tournament and you'll have your answer why no one plays it.
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Goblin Recruiter is not card disadvantage and costs less. If we had access to a card that was 1G for a 1/1, search for up to three creatures and put them on top of your library, I suspect that card would see a lot of play. The combo of 4 eternal witness and 4 of that guy would be the defining mechanic of company I'd think.
Unfortunately it costs 3 instead of 2, doesn't turn sideways/chump block/recur/get hit off collected company.
Happy to hear some testing But I really don't think there is enough wrong with the deck that you need to try a paradigm shift like cutting chords for congregations or something.
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However, I believe Dredge is something for any deck to be wary of simply due to the resiliency of threats and the avenues it can exploit to win. And with recent tools like Reunion and Neonate providing a reliable way to initiate Dredge, I don't know if Troll-ban was enough.
Anyhow, before I ramble anymore, this is relevant to Abzan Company because we are not hard locked into a combo-focused build, and thus can use a more value-focused build instead should the need arise. And because Dredge is merely less reliable to fuel itself, that need is still there.
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My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
However, my plan game 2/3 is often to move away from combo and graveyard synergies, taking out either chords or coco's and combo pieces go more value/hate.
I mean, grafdiggers cage is still a good card against us, but often I have the option of destroying it and chose not to, because I'm less reliant on the graveyard anyway, and just beat down.
Also, I find maelstrom pulse to be an amazing card and I bring it in almost every game 2/3, as it can answer any hate card, and is never dead.
And when are you guys removing Chords, against BGx decks or things with a lot of removal? How many are you guys normally removing, 2 chords? 3?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abzund-company-1/
I have considered using a red splash before, but only for Magus of the Moon and similar effects. While Keldon Marauders, I'm curious if it actually helps against our more troublesome matchups. Tron may indeed be outright a gamble at best regardless of our build, but what about, say Jeskai Nahiri?
On a side-note, since we already consider Aven Mindcensor to some extent, what about Leonin Arbiter as a cheaper, harder lock against decks that like to search their libraries more than we do? While it does prevent Chord of Calling and fetchlands from being as effective, it seems more reliable than the Mindcensor at slowing Tron and Jeskai Nahiri down.
One last question: if I were to jam Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to facilitate an easier time casting Murderous Redcap, what should I cut from the following land-base?
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Gavony Township
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If I do like the red splash I'm definitely adding a Magus of the Moon, just looking for enough reason to add the red.
I think Leonin Arbiter is worth a go but not sure I'd run Urborg.
I was thinking EoT put missing pieces of the combo on top,draw on draw step for one,sac clue,draw,play both.
Well, or the curve, you might play this turn 2 if enough copies (what do you take out??). That means you may draw your combo on turn 5. Is that later than you can chord for it? T5 in a fishbowl is pretty late in modern.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
I was thinking turn one mana dork,turn two CoD at opponents EoT ,turn three coco into whatever is put on top. Guarantees we coco what we want plus our normal draw into hand.
Congregation at dawn is card disadvantage. Not sure why you'd compare it to tireless tracker, which comes in for grindy matchups where the card advantage is the important part. You're not comboing against control anyway.
I'm not sold on it, but I'll test pretty much anything haha. Had no idea the card existed before now tbh. Probably too cute, and yeah, not really playable in a vacuum because of the card disadvantage. I'd give it a shot as a one-of in the sideboard if I were playing it, and only bring it in when you're already boarding into the full four (or full three, depending on your build) Trackers, since it's only really a desirable effect when you have clues.
Of course, I'd probably just congregate for three more Trackers. Because VALUE.
Need to permanently exile something? Grab Viscera Seer and Fiend Hunter/Tidehollow Sculler.
Need to find two missing combo pieces asap? Go get them.
Granted there is probably a card in between Congregation at Dawn and Worldly Tutor that would be much better with Collected Company.
EDIT: And in a pinch you can fail to find and just shuffle. Unlikely to be useful, but never hurts to have options.
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I had a pretty good FNM with my stock list tonight; went 2 and 1, losing to myself against a budget prowess deck (mull to 5, chorded for witness 3x and then hit a coco and coco'd for a single noble hierarch; mull to 6, resolve 2 cocos and both single hit).
I think the bones of this deck are really solid still and we don't need to reinvent the wheel, just keep testing and incremental changes. I definitely need to update my sideboard.
I'm pretty excited about Deadeye Harpooner since vigilance is so rare, and it kills so many things. Most likely going to try it in the fiend hunter slot and see how that goes.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I mean yes it is net -1 CA, but if Vampiric Tutor in Vintage is any indication, you don't necessarily care about hand size if it is a matchup where the combo matters (including Tron).
I know this is theory-crafting until someone quantifies the probabilities, but imagine you are playing against Tron. You have 1x CoCo, 1x Dork, 2x lands, and any combo piece in your opening hand. Naturally you play land into Dork, then draw into Congregation T2. You cast it, getting Dork on top and the other necessary combo pieces just underneath. T3 you play the second Dork and maybe the combo piece if it CMC 2 or less. Then, during T4 upkeep, you cast CoCo and hit the two remaining combo pieces from before, scrying for Redcap before you draw into it (or the infinite life+bolster combo if you don't want to risk Redcap to Karn).
Again, unlikely to happen, but personally I believe it has merit against Tron where we need to combo asap.
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In technical terms it's both card and massive tempo disadvantage--you're spending 3 tempo to not affect the board, then going down a card.
Play fifty test games and report back.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
2) Our combos and synergies consist entirely of creatures, so the restriction of creatures is, for the most part irrelevant, especially if we are attempting to combo asap. Also I will cite Goblin Recruiter in old Legacy here for a similar effect.
3) This is probably your most valid point, and as such my best defense is to agree that it is bad in a vacuum, but good with CoCo. As before, Goblin Recruiter into Goblin Ringleader is basically 4 Goblin Matrons/Diabolic Tutors; it isn't much of a stretch to say Congregation into CoCo isn't unlike an entwined Tooth and Nail. And I bring up this interaction because CoCo was released quite some time after Congregation was. A similar 'revival' occurred with Nic Fit in legacy, this time due to the reprint of Veteran Explorer in the first Commander Players then discovered how strong it was with Cabal Therapy in a format with virtually no basics.
New cards are released as long as the game goes on, and while no one is expecting a combo with Savannah Lions to break any format, there is always the possibility that something fresh pops up.
Anyhow, once I figure out a suitable list, print the appropriate proxies, and find an experienced Tron player, I will grind those games out.
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GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Goblin Recruiter is not card disadvantage and costs less. If we had access to a card that was 1G for a 1/1, search for up to three creatures and put them on top of your library, I suspect that card would see a lot of play. The combo of 4 eternal witness and 4 of that guy would be the defining mechanic of company I'd think.
Unfortunately it costs 3 instead of 2, doesn't turn sideways/chump block/recur/get hit off collected company.
Happy to hear some testing But I really don't think there is enough wrong with the deck that you need to try a paradigm shift like cutting chords for congregations or something.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall