Tidehollow reminds me a lot of queller - a disruptive creature that answers almost anything but doesn't help you combo.
Queller has flash and flying and is a positive tempo play, but sculler is better at protecting a druid from removal. I've definitely had some success with the queller builds so I'm excited to test the sculler list
Playing last week somehow between rounds 2 and 3 one of my KotR went missing and never turned up..... so I am out a card now. Unless I get another one I'll be playing 3 Knights now, so I might as well go back up to the full 4 Finks. 4 Knights were fun but I definitely can see my list still working with only 3. I like your list Pathrogas, but would still be playing 2 Duskwatches instead of that Anafenza and maybe some protection instead of a second Viscera Seer. That's probably how my list would look now (with my manabase from before).
Life as really ramped up, so I probably wont be playing much in the next little while. I still read the thread just can't post much.
In the realm of playing janky versions of the deck, I also was looking at Lightning Greaves as an option to give Druid haste right away so it can combo sit on the batlefield until you get a Vizier out. I think it could be neat as a 1-of, and if something like Stoneforge Mystic enters the format then it could happen... but that's not for really for this thread. I'm only putting this here as this thread is still the most appropriate place for it without starting something new. This is just a side thought in case it peaks someones interest.
@Torpf
Shame about that Knight
Really haven't missed any protection lately, pretty surprised by that actually. The redundancy overcomes a lot of removal, and being almost 100% combo pieces is quite nice there. Anafenza allows for an actual combo finish via Finks, so I like having her around (even though WW is annoying...). Second Seer might be just me tho, maybe valueing the scry too highly. Could be good with Scullers however, might try that too in the near future.
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I've been saying that distended mindbender is great in the sideboard for ages! I've played 2 for a long time.
It's really good in all our difficult matchups. It can single handedly win alone, even if it doesnt resolve.
Eldrazi tron/normal tron, scapeshift variants, Ad Nauseum, any control deck that plays cryptic/boardwipes, and even Jund/abzan post sideboard if you expect damnation/Kalitas/night of souls betrayal.
I don't play the version with scullers, but I can see it getting even better with those, as you can stack the triggers to give them back the card, then take it again with mindbender:)
Sometimes you get free wins with Sin collector into mindbender.
It's also immune to all is dust, and generally the usual sideboard cards they bring in against us doesn't work against it.
Seconded on the unified will. (Path is Terrible idea, forge tender an obviously good one).
I played maybe 35 marches against another modo grinder one night and found that unified will was how I won. I would consider four in the right metagame.
I've also had success with tectonic edge in the board (it's also nice to have lands in the board for when you board out dorks against wrath decks) - especially in KotR builds. It just buys you that extra turn to reassemble your combo or find protection
That being said I'm not surprised you found it to be a bad matchu. I completely agree with "they have just enough to stop us and then win"; I've experienced it too. I think if there's a lot of valakut in your meta you should be worried/prepared
Why? Path in response to the titan etb trigger saves you a lot of damage, especially if the used Breach. It might backfire if they follow that up with another scapeshift or titan, but it's worth the risk to avoid staight up loosing. It's not like there aren't enough cards that can be cut in the matchup.
Path is a bad idea because we're playing a deck that doesn't beat 2 valakuts and 6 mountains. Once they pick up the deck to resolve his ability it's combo or bust.
That's not even considering the games where you lose to scapeshift. And it doesn't speed you up or beat anger of the gods. There are better options.
It saves you precisely 3 life to Path with his trigger on stack if they have a Valakut in play, 6 if they don’t and are grabbing 2.
Seems meh
Let's say they have 5 mountains and breach a titan. If you do nothing they get two valakuts and then 2 mountains, meaning 12 damage on 4 triggers which is just straight up a game loss for us. If you make them fetch a 6th mountain and they then can only tutor up two lands, either mountain and valakut or 2 valakuts, it seriously saves 9 or 12 damage PLUS the 6 damage of the attack of the titan and gives us another turn to try to combo off. (and even if they have one valakut already in play which is unlikely because they can't fetch for those early, the 5th mountain entering from path doesn't trigger so they only get to only deal 6 off the etb, still saving you at least 6 plus the attack)
Forget it I just looked up that breach seems to be quite rare these days. Path isn't really good against non-breach titans.
To the post above me, I believe people are referring to the scapeshift Titan version, not the breach titan plan, which is much less common.
Secondly, me and my friend are going to a monthly modern event today and are playing my new build of abzan company which is a modified version of the knight of the reliquary plan. I've won two fnms so far with it and it feels so much better than before,with knight giving me much more versatility with both its size and searching for canopies, gavonies, and/or kessig. I'll post the list below. (Still can't figure out how to use that decklist feature on my ipad). Lingering souls has been a great board card against attrition style decks like shadow and abzan. It single handedly wins games (and has). I play the ninth fetch because of renegade rallier and knight of the reliquary. Ten would be the sweet spot, but I don't want to cut any of my other lands. 20 lands has not felt like too few at all either.
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
1 viscera seer
4 devoted druid
4 vizier of remedies
2 duskwatch recruiter
1 selfless spirit
1 walking ballista
4 knight of the reliquary
3 eternal witness
3 kitchen finks
2 renegade rallier
Minum - really interesting list. Had a few questions for you.
How has the finks combo been for you? Does playing just three finks justify the two "bad" cards (4th vizier and seer)? Additionally I notice you don't have a follow up kill condition - anafensa or redcap. How often has this package won you games?
Second, I noticed you're playing ralliers. I've spent a fair amount of time playing that card in evolution decks and I have to say I'm pretty certain it's not good enough. It doesn't do anything on combo turns, it plays into graveyard hate, and it's too often just a 3/2
Cool list though. Definitely similar to what I've been testing
Conversely I’m playing renegade rallier and have found it exceptionally removal. With the amount of removal out there and wanting to focus primarily on the devoted Druid combo, being able to get a card back from the graveyard has proved invaluable for me. Playing fetches, canopies etc means that you often hit the revolt trigger.
Admittedly, it’s a pretty situational card and obviously isn’t going to be that effective if you can’t use the ETB trigger. However, a 3/2 beater that can be pumped with gavony township isn’t too bad....
Furthermore, I’m not playing KotR, nor am I playing another win-con (other than walking ballista) and so far haven’t found that I have needed it. I have more-often-than-not won using either the kitchen finks or devoted Druid combo.
Finally, as per my previous post I’m really liking the use of kitesail Freebooter. Give it a go
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Minum - really interesting list. Had a few questions for you.
How has the finks combo been for you? Does playing just three finks justify the two "bad" cards (4th vizier and seer)? Additionally I notice you don't have a follow up kill condition - anafensa or redcap. How often has this package won you games?
Second, I noticed you're playing ralliers. I've spent a fair amount of time playing that card in evolution decks and I have to say I'm pretty certain it's not good enough. It doesn't do anything on combo turns, it plays into graveyard hate, and it's too often just a 3/2
Cool list though. Definitely similar to what I've been testing
Sorry man, been a busy couple days and haven't had much chance to get on here. The tournament ended up great, was 5-1 top seed going into top 8 before dropping a match to UW control. Usually a good matchup but he got everything he need and a Gideon AoZ that I couldn't answer both games.
For the finks combo, I definitely find it necessary to have in the deck. One of the strengths of the deck is having two combos to lean on, not to mention finks is a pretty good creature in general. I'm almost never disappointed to play a finks without comboing (unless it's like against tron of course). I would play 4 viziers anyways so that irrelevant. The seer can be a little awkward at times but it either wins me the game or eats a removal spell so it's generally not too bad. I don't run anafenza or redcap because they hurt the manabase a lot. Anafenza was the reason we had to run godless shrine before and I cannot stress to you how much I hate godless shrine in this deck with birds, nobles, and chords. Also, infinite life is usually good enough to secure a game or at least buy me time if they have outs.
As far as rallier goes, he's been kinda hit-or-miss for me too. The mantra I always remeber with him though is that at best he wins you the game by re animating a combo piece or sideboard card. At worst, he gets back a fetchland or canopy and leaves a reasonable body behind. I've had enough situations with him where he was amazing to warrant having him in the deck.
In conclusion, the knight list was fantastic this weekend for me and my friend. The kessig wolf run did kill some people, both infinitely and on normal boards. The knights also did a respectable job generating value and defending against large things, even killing folks. I also loved not having a Rhonas not doing anything every game. I love Rhonas but he rarely did much if I wasn't in a winning position sadly. even had an invocation of him.
Thanks for doing that Atanar. Interesting to read.
I’ve played both and like them both for sure. I came to this deck from knightfall, so bant always feels good, but honestly I think for the combo Abzan or even just GW feels more proactive which is where I think we want to be. Queller is amazing, but although it can grab a spell and help you win sometimes, other times it’s just a midrange card in a deck that really needs to kill fast.
I agree with some reddit ppl who say that cards like sculler, sin collector, abrupt decay etc are probably better sideboard cards than counters, reflector mage, Geist of saint Traft etc. for what our game plan is. I’ve enjoyed even playing a GW version that runs renegade rallier and knight that feels good too.
I constantly changing my mind on this though, I hope some others weigh in on this who test more often than I.
Hopefully my first attempt at adding my list works ok. I have been playing this for several months and tinkering with what I see as my three "flex" slots. As of now I plan to try Tidehollow Sculler for a little bit. I like having the Kitchen Finks combo too as an infinite life gain - it has won me several games against Burn.
Happy to see that our deck has gained some appreciation - I feel like any given event it can be a contender.
I prefer 22 lands in this deck. I think playing a land for the first three (and often 4) turns of the game is essential for our very mana hungry game-plan. Cards like coco, chord, e-wit, gavony township, and recruiter all require large amounts of mana and perform better with 3 or 4 lands in play. The advantage to playing more dorks and fewer lands is a boost to the effectiveness of coco and and the occasional lategame gavony township and to prevent flooding out. A downside of this configuration is that removal, especially board wipes, can leave you unable to recover since they not only kill your combo creatures but also hit your mana sources. I've played this deck for a while with 23 lands (before devoted druid combo) and have been on 22 since including the druid+vizier combo. I would consider builds with 20 and 21 land with additional dorks a decision to accept the risk of increased mulligan frequency and more issues playing spells on curve when facing removal heavy decks due to too few lands in exchange for potentially more explosive hands that either win or cast a coco on turn 3. It's a consistency issue for me, so I have always preferred to have 22 lands.
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Queller has flash and flying and is a positive tempo play, but sculler is better at protecting a druid from removal. I've definitely had some success with the queller builds so I'm excited to test the sculler list
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StaffLife as really ramped up, so I probably wont be playing much in the next little while. I still read the thread just can't post much.
In the realm of playing janky versions of the deck, I also was looking at Lightning Greaves as an option to give Druid haste right away so it can combo sit on the batlefield until you get a Vizier out. I think it could be neat as a 1-of, and if something like Stoneforge Mystic enters the format then it could happen... but that's not for really for this thread. I'm only putting this here as this thread is still the most appropriate place for it without starting something new. This is just a side thought in case it peaks someones interest.
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Fauna Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Walking Ballista
4 Aether Vial
2 Chord of Calling
3 Collected Company
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Shame about that Knight
Really haven't missed any protection lately, pretty surprised by that actually. The redundancy overcomes a lot of removal, and being almost 100% combo pieces is quite nice there. Anafenza allows for an actual combo finish via Finks, so I like having her around (even though WW is annoying...). Second Seer might be just me tho, maybe valueing the scry too highly. Could be good with Scullers however, might try that too in the near future.
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It's really good in all our difficult matchups. It can single handedly win alone, even if it doesnt resolve.
Eldrazi tron/normal tron, scapeshift variants, Ad Nauseum, any control deck that plays cryptic/boardwipes, and even Jund/abzan post sideboard if you expect damnation/Kalitas/night of souls betrayal.
I don't play the version with scullers, but I can see it getting even better with those, as you can stack the triggers to give them back the card, then take it again with mindbender:)
Sometimes you get free wins with Sin collector into mindbender.
It's also immune to all is dust, and generally the usual sideboard cards they bring in against us doesn't work against it.
I played maybe 35 marches against another modo grinder one night and found that unified will was how I won. I would consider four in the right metagame.
I've also had success with tectonic edge in the board (it's also nice to have lands in the board for when you board out dorks against wrath decks) - especially in KotR builds. It just buys you that extra turn to reassemble your combo or find protection
That being said I'm not surprised you found it to be a bad matchu. I completely agree with "they have just enough to stop us and then win"; I've experienced it too. I think if there's a lot of valakut in your meta you should be worried/prepared
Why? Path in response to the titan etb trigger saves you a lot of damage, especially if the used Breach. It might backfire if they follow that up with another scapeshift or titan, but it's worth the risk to avoid staight up loosing. It's not like there aren't enough cards that can be cut in the matchup.
That's not even considering the games where you lose to scapeshift. And it doesn't speed you up or beat anger of the gods. There are better options.
Seems meh
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Let's say they have 5 mountains and breach a titan. If you do nothing they get two valakuts and then 2 mountains, meaning 12 damage on 4 triggers which is just straight up a game loss for us. If you make them fetch a 6th mountain and they then can only tutor up two lands, either mountain and valakut or 2 valakuts, it seriously saves 9 or 12 damage PLUS the 6 damage of the attack of the titan and gives us another turn to try to combo off. (and even if they have one valakut already in play which is unlikely because they can't fetch for those early, the 5th mountain entering from path doesn't trigger so they only get to only deal 6 off the etb, still saving you at least 6 plus the attack)Forget it I just looked up that breach seems to be quite rare these days. Path isn't really good against non-breach titans.
Secondly, me and my friend are going to a monthly modern event today and are playing my new build of abzan company which is a modified version of the knight of the reliquary plan. I've won two fnms so far with it and it feels so much better than before,with knight giving me much more versatility with both its size and searching for canopies, gavonies, and/or kessig. I'll post the list below. (Still can't figure out how to use that decklist feature on my ipad). Lingering souls has been a great board card against attrition style decks like shadow and abzan. It single handedly wins games (and has). I play the ninth fetch because of renegade rallier and knight of the reliquary. Ten would be the sweet spot, but I don't want to cut any of my other lands. 20 lands has not felt like too few at all either.
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
1 viscera seer
4 devoted druid
4 vizier of remedies
2 duskwatch recruiter
1 selfless spirit
1 walking ballista
4 knight of the reliquary
3 eternal witness
3 kitchen finks
2 renegade rallier
4 chord of calling
4 collected company
4 windswept Heath
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
2 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
2 forest
1 plains
2 horizon canopy
1 gavony township
1 kessig wolf run
Sideboard:
2 ethersworn canonist
1 phyrexian revoker
1 scavenging ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 kataki, war's wage
1 sin collector
1 orzhov pontiff
1 Linvala,keeper of silence
1 aven mindcensor
2 lingering souls
2 path to exile
1 abrupt decay
How has the finks combo been for you? Does playing just three finks justify the two "bad" cards (4th vizier and seer)? Additionally I notice you don't have a follow up kill condition - anafensa or redcap. How often has this package won you games?
Second, I noticed you're playing ralliers. I've spent a fair amount of time playing that card in evolution decks and I have to say I'm pretty certain it's not good enough. It doesn't do anything on combo turns, it plays into graveyard hate, and it's too often just a 3/2
Cool list though. Definitely similar to what I've been testing
Admittedly, it’s a pretty situational card and obviously isn’t going to be that effective if you can’t use the ETB trigger. However, a 3/2 beater that can be pumped with gavony township isn’t too bad....
Furthermore, I’m not playing KotR, nor am I playing another win-con (other than walking ballista) and so far haven’t found that I have needed it. I have more-often-than-not won using either the kitchen finks or devoted Druid combo.
Finally, as per my previous post I’m really liking the use of kitesail Freebooter. Give it a go
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Sorry man, been a busy couple days and haven't had much chance to get on here. The tournament ended up great, was 5-1 top seed going into top 8 before dropping a match to UW control. Usually a good matchup but he got everything he need and a Gideon AoZ that I couldn't answer both games.
For the finks combo, I definitely find it necessary to have in the deck. One of the strengths of the deck is having two combos to lean on, not to mention finks is a pretty good creature in general. I'm almost never disappointed to play a finks without comboing (unless it's like against tron of course). I would play 4 viziers anyways so that irrelevant. The seer can be a little awkward at times but it either wins me the game or eats a removal spell so it's generally not too bad. I don't run anafenza or redcap because they hurt the manabase a lot. Anafenza was the reason we had to run godless shrine before and I cannot stress to you how much I hate godless shrine in this deck with birds, nobles, and chords. Also, infinite life is usually good enough to secure a game or at least buy me time if they have outs.
As far as rallier goes, he's been kinda hit-or-miss for me too. The mantra I always remeber with him though is that at best he wins you the game by re animating a combo piece or sideboard card. At worst, he gets back a fetchland or canopy and leaves a reasonable body behind. I've had enough situations with him where he was amazing to warrant having him in the deck.
In conclusion, the knight list was fantastic this weekend for me and my friend. The kessig wolf run did kill some people, both infinitely and on normal boards. The knights also did a respectable job generating value and defending against large things, even killing folks. I also loved not having a Rhonas not doing anything every game. I love Rhonas but he rarely did much if I wasn't in a winning position sadly.
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StaffMTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/7gmk1s/vizir_combo_bant_or_abzan_which_is_more/
What is your opinion, bant or abzahn? Or is the difference so small that it's down to taste?
I’ve played both and like them both for sure. I came to this deck from knightfall, so bant always feels good, but honestly I think for the combo Abzan or even just GW feels more proactive which is where I think we want to be. Queller is amazing, but although it can grab a spell and help you win sometimes, other times it’s just a midrange card in a deck that really needs to kill fast.
I agree with some reddit ppl who say that cards like sculler, sin collector, abrupt decay etc are probably better sideboard cards than counters, reflector mage, Geist of saint Traft etc. for what our game plan is. I’ve enjoyed even playing a GW version that runs renegade rallier and knight that feels good too.
I constantly changing my mind on this though, I hope some others weigh in on this who test more often than I.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Viscera Seer
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Walking Ballista
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
SPELLS
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
LANDS
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdent Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Gavony Township
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Forest
1 Plains
SIDEBOARD
2 Path to Exile
2 Sin Collector
2Abrupt Decay
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Stony Silence
Hopefully my first attempt at adding my list works ok. I have been playing this for several months and tinkering with what I see as my three "flex" slots. As of now I plan to try Tidehollow Sculler for a little bit. I like having the Kitchen Finks combo too as an infinite life gain - it has won me several games against Burn.
Happy to see that our deck has gained some appreciation - I feel like any given event it can be a contender.