Has anyone put up results with a Bant Vizier list recently? I played the 4 Color Retreat deck that did well at the SCG Open Charlotte (which basically mashes Knightfall combo with Vizier Combo), and despite going 3-1 was thoroughly underwhelmed. A lot of times my opening hands were parts of the wrong combos. What I did really enjoy was rebuying CoCos with Eternal Witness, which is a staple of most Vizier lists. Adding blue to the mix also opens options like Reflector Mage and Spell Queller as silver bullets to CoCo for.
Anyone have any experience with that version of the deck?
hey that's my list! It was actually at the classic, I made a critical mistake against storm in the open and missed day 2 because of it.
It sounds like you were expecting the retreat combo to happen a little too often. The idea is that the vizier combo is plan A, and knight of the reliquary offers a very solid plan B for the beatdown, giving you a very fast way to close out the game, or tutor up kessig/gavony to out value your opponents (along w/ the coco ewitt plan, but that's nothing new). The retreat combo is almost a plan C, and basically just gives you some free wins when you catch your opponent's with their pants down. Been on the list for probably two months or so now, feel free to ask me any questions.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
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Vs Jeskai you just want lots of stuff on the field to overload their things. Finks and Witness are great, Collector as well. Patient play is important here, play around counterspells when possible, bait removal, etc.
Vs mirror... Finks are alright but not great. Inf. life rarely matters (can't beat it without Ballista). Basically you want a bit of interaction and a fast combo, similar to Valakut.
Vs Valakut fast combo + cheap interaction of sorts is the way to go. BFT, Spirit, discard, search/landhate are all fine. Remember, you're not trying to lock them out and punch them to death, you're trying to hold them off a turn or two and then combo them out. Also make sure to not board too much, you'll need all your combo intact.
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Hey pizz0wn3d---Good to see you over here too, we've had some back and forth on the Knightfall thread...
Have you tried the (still) bant version that put up results this weekend in the scg modern open? It cuts the knight plan for spell queller. I'm gearing up for a another modern classic this weekend and have to decide if i want the knights for the midrange or queller for more disruption, curious if you've tested both and your thoughts!!! Heres one of the lists- http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116828
Also congrats to Ben Ragan who got 3rd at the event with the abzan version!
Hey pizz0wn3d---Good to see you over here too, we've had some back and forth on the Knightfall thread...
Have you tried the (still) bant version that put up results this weekend in the scg modern open? It cuts the knight plan for spell queller. I'm gearing up for a another modern classic this weekend and have to decide if i want the knights for the midrange or queller for more disruption, curious if you've tested both and your thoughts!!! Heres one of the lists- http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116828
Also congrats to Ben Ragan who got 3rd at the event with the abzan version!
I haven't had the time, but I'm 100% going to try a fauna shaman in my list. That card actually seems pretty sick. Ben Ragan is actually a friend of a friend's, and was on the vizier knightfall plan until very recently as well.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Yeah I can play Abzan too obviously, ugh deciding which list is best with this can be tricky huh? Please keep me informed of what you're going with, I'm gonna start testing a lot this week, I'm doing the classic in DC (Dulles) this Sunday.
Why is Spell Queller not the auto-jam for every bant list? Guy at my LGS does pretty well with 4 of them and I can't imagine why not to play it in a format of storm
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Why is Spell Queller not the auto-jam for every bant list? Guy at my LGS does pretty well with 4 of them and I can't imagine why not to play it in a format of storm
Maybe it's because the most played cards in modern are path to exile, fatal push and lightning bolt?
It's only personal opinion but I consider spell queller nearly as bad as fiend hunter in a deck that plays no counters to protect it.
a bunch of people made day 2 at the recent SCG event with the inclusion of queller in their decks and for what it's worth, they rated the card. there must be something more to it than you're implying here.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Oh boy it looks like we have 6 Decks in the top 32 of SCG Cincinnati, with 5 of them being Druid-Vizier, 1 being the old Abzan Company build, and even more Company decks with Todd Steven's GW Company list and the Collins Mullen Humans list. Lots to take away from these lists, but the biggest is that you can build your deck almost however you want and still find success as long as you stick to the established core of the deck.
One thing I noticed is that a lot of decks were playing lower land counts, which is something that I've been doing lately too. I've gone down from 22 lands to 21, and am even tempted to cut that down to 20 and just play a 4th Noble Hierarch. Two weeks ago I went 4-0 on two different nights, then last week went 3-1 on two different nights. Loses were to Storm one night (not drawing interaction or the combo fast enough) and UWR Control (16 Bolts/Paths/Helix's + Verdicts can be hard to beat). That puts me at 14-2 across 4 events which looks good but remember that it's at a local level. My current list is here:
Been missing playing against BG decks so Kitchen Finks has been preeeeety lackluster. I really haven't been grinding games at all and they all either end with some decisive combo on the opponents side or on mine. The metagame should eventually shift back once midrange hates out all the combo so I will go back eventually, but for now it has got me thinking.....
The Vizier Knightfall decks are playing Knight of the Reliquary as sort of a Plan B to get some random wins with Retreat to Coralhelm but it also does double duty as a combo piece by its ability to search up Kessig Wolf Run. Kessig allows us to have a win-condition piece in our manabase which frees up another deck slot for creatures, thus making our Companies that much better. I have liked this idea ever since it was talked about way way back in the thread but nothing ever really came of is until people started playing Vizier Knightfall. So I have been playing around with this list recently:
It's basically just your typical Vizier Knightfall deck but with Renegade Rallier instead of Reflector Mage. I've been liking Rallier a lot lately and it just really ups the speed of the combo since your first Druid is almost always getting removed. It also works better in this deck since you have slightly more fetchlands and KotR to activate Revolt each turn. Speaking of, Knight of the Reliquary acts as a mana dork in a way in that you get to ramp with it outside of Chord. If it untaps it will usually be a 4/4 to 5/5 or larger, and can help you dump the rest of your hand. Beyond that it is just a huge creature that can can rival Eldrazi and smash face for a lot of damage. You also get some random wins with Retreat to Coralhelm as I said before so when that comes up it feels good. The last thing I found with the deck is that I almost always found myself fetching basic forests because I had so much mana available from Dorks/Druids/KotR. It's a 4 colour deck but I had been searching for basics more than ever. This makes me wonder if I can jam everything together into one monstrosity of a deck.
I now like the black splash more for the sideboard cards than for the Finks combo. It just never comes up and I wouldn't feel bad just cutting a Viscera Seer. This brings me to my next question about the deck, if I put in KotR then do I also play blue for Retreat to Coralhelm for the odd free wins that come up? From 4 Birds and 4 Hierarch there was never a problem naturally having Blue mana so I never really fetched it up. Red was the problem because only Birds could naturally make it so I'd have to find it and even with KotR it would take two turns to get both it and Kessig. This is the main reason for me to be weary of playing both Black and Red as splashes. I can just not play retreat and Blue to get some more consistency and safety in Kitchen Finks, and use the Vizier Knightfall manabase but cut the Blue and add in some Black. This leaves me with a deck looking something like this:
This drops the land count down to 20, which is super low but with 8 Dorks, 4 Druids, and 3 Knights you have a lot of mana production going to be going on. There is less need to hit 4 mana for Companies and 5 for Gavony since the opponents spot removal won't be able to keep up with your dorks Game 1. Second you have to drop Ralliers to slot in KotR, and in that slightly drop Finks numbers (which I don't mind, they're only needed in grindy matchups). KotR allows us to play only 1 Township and 1 Wolf Run which gives 'an additional land slot', which was shaved to play a 4th Hierarch. With more 3 drops it is super crucial to have the T1 one every time and backup ones. Also as a last note, I am plying Ballista as combo (Storm, Ad Naus, etc..) is high right now and you want to win on the spot. It also kills Storm creatures which is nice. In a different meta I'd be playing Rhonas.
So now my questions (before testing) are:
- Play the 4th Hierarch or cut it to open up another slot?
- Play 4 KotR or 3? Do we shave a Finks down to 2 copies to do this or play a 3/3 split?
- Do we play a Blood Crypt? This meets both the Red and Black requirements in 1 land, where otherwise you need 1 additional search to win with Kessig and still play sideboard cards. This would mean -1 Stomping Ground -1 Overgrown Tomb +1 Temple Garden +1 Blood Crypt
- Without Rallier should we play 2 Horizon Canopy instead of 1?
- Do we even need the Viscera Seer game 1 or should it be in the sideboard?
- Should it still play Retreat to Coralhelm for free KotR wins or is that too greedy?
I have to play with these numbers and questions to see what I like. Will get back about it, but I am feeling kinda sick now so I may not play much this week. If other people can weigh in that'd be great. I've put a lot of thought into this and it is at least semi-viable as seen by Knightfall decks already, but I have to find a good balance of greed and pliability.
Is there a way to determine combo density for Abzan lists? By that I mean the threat (or, to better relate to physics, the mass/weight) each combo piece or tutor/value cars that can get a combo piece divided by the volume (or rather slots) dedicated to those cards.
I mean, it's easy for Storm as their entire deck is focused on one combo, but Vizier Company can have two or three combos, often with overlapping pieces.
Also, before I lose myself to meaningless theoretics, should I jam 1x Saffi Eriksdotter if running 1x Renegade Rallier in addition to 1x Viscera Seer, 1x Anafenza Kin-Tree Spirit 4x Kitchen Finks, 3x Vizier of Remedies, and 4x Devoted Druid?
@Torpf: without testing, my feeling:
Play the 4th noble for best turn2 quality.
Split 3/3 with finks for better polyvalence.
No bloodcrypt because too greedy for the manabase.
No seer because this combo is less playable, and you already don't have 4 finks. Even not in SB, since this combo is much harder to get in SB games.
I don't like canopy with only 1 or 2 ralliers.
Certainly don't play retreat: it dilutes other combos and company quality, + you don't play the full 4 kotr.
Thinking about stuff more here is where I'm at:
- Play the 4th Hierarch or cut it to open up another slot?
Playing the 4th has been great for me in the Knightfall deck so I think I can stick to it in this 2.0 version. Having a lower land count for more action is nice and I haven't had any real problems yet.
- Play 4 KotR or 3? Do we shave a Finks down to 2 copies to do this or play a 3/3 split?
Looking at it more, Finks are only there for the midrange matchups (and burn) to grind out the opponent. The combo never happens anymore since the Druid-Vizier one is just faster and takes less effort to assemble. I think playing 4/2 KotR/Finks is fine so that's what I'll start with. This is for a more combo-oriented metagame, and if I expected more midrange then I'd play the 3/3 split. I don't think there is one right answer to this. It just comes down to how fast you want to combo off vs play the long game.
- Do we play a Blood Crypt? This meets both the Red and Black requirements in 1 land, where otherwise you need 1 additional search to win with Kessig and still play sideboard cards. This would mean -1 Stomping Ground -1 Overgrown Tomb +1 Temple Garden +1 Blood Crypt
If the manabase was anything higher than 20 lands I could justify having 3 nongreen sources but that's not gonna happen with here. Perhaps if I cut a Chord, but then the deck is slightly worse off at the combo... The biggest thing for me is that we don't need a G or W source on every land because there is no Retreat for KotR. With more Dorks there is always enough coloured mana flying around too, at least that's how I am justifying it.
- Do we even need the Viscera Seer game 1 or should it be in the sideboard?
Yeah I'm at the same point. I think it'd still be maindeckable with 3 Finks but it's just not what I'm going for with this version of the deck.
- Should it still play Retreat to Coralhelm for free KotR wins or is that too greedy?
Once I find some good numbers I'll try to throw some in haha. For now I gotta make this playable as-is.
Been missing playing against BG decks so Kitchen Finks has been preeeeety lackluster. I really haven't been grinding games at all and they all either end with some decisive combo on the opponents side or on mine. The metagame should eventually shift back once midrange hates out all the combo so I will go back eventually, but for now it has got me thinking.....
The Vizier Knightfall decks are playing Knight of the Reliquary as sort of a Plan B to get some random wins with Retreat to Coralhelm but it also does double duty as a combo piece by its ability to search up Kessig Wolf Run. Kessig allows us to have a win-condition piece in our manabase which frees up another deck slot for creatures, thus making our Companies that much better. I have liked this idea ever since it was talked about way way back in the thread but nothing ever really came of is until people started playing Vizier Knightfall. So I have been playing around with this list recently:
I think this is a similar deck but not the same of the subject of this topic.
Knightfall is probably better in a meta of Eldrazi, but other decks are "Betterer" ...
If we cut Kitchen Finks, we change the deck.
No hard feelings anyway...
Spellskite is in my maindeck because it is better game 1. Nearly every deck that is going to interact with you is going to be playing some form of creature removal. Skite is better vs Path to Exile, all Lightning Bolt variants, Walking Ballista, and blocks better (relevant vs Burn, Zoo, Affinity, Knightfall, Infect, Bogles, etc... just lots of random fringe decks). Post board Selfless Spirit is better to combat things like Damnnation, Supreme Verdict, Anger of the Gods, Engineered Explosives, etc... These cards are far less common game 1 so you want to have the best chance vs spot removal.
As for Stony Silence, you have to mull for it since you can't rely on getting it other ways. Yes it is a great card against Affinity, but I don't feel it is a horrible matchup for me. Post board I have Selfless Spirit, Qasali Pridemage, Reclamation Sage, Orzhov Pontiff, Path to Exile, and Abrupt Decay against them, as well as Spellskite. That's usually enough to find a win unless they have a perfect turn 1 hand and are faster than my own combo (which does get slowed down a tad from sideboarding). For Eldrazi Tron, you shouldn't be bringing it in anyways... It shuts off their Expedition Map and that's really it.
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As for the Knightfall deck, there is the Knightfall thread for those yeah, but the only reason that they're not all combined is that this thread would have too many discussions going on at once in it. So they're kinda split up as Bant/4Colour Knightfall and this thread which is everything else. It's still ok to talk about the decks in here which is why it was changed to GWx Vizier Company and not left as Abzan. The whole point of me posting that deck was to show the two areas I was coming from and my thought process in getting to the last deck I posted.
I'm been playing a vizier bant list with Knight of the reliquary but without retreat to coralheim, and like it a lot. Makes the midrange matchup a lot better, plus be another threat that should be answer. Also, another important thing about the Knight is that search the best land in the deck: Gavony Township.
The bant version seems a little better in the midrange matchup and combo matchup, but it's worst than the abzan at combo off fast, is like the combo plan is less important to win games, because the midrange part it's better than in the Abzan version.
Also plays less ''dead cards'' without the combo. I think that both versions are fine, just personal preferences. I'm having a lot of fun with the bant one.
I'd almost argue at this point that Bant can combo off faster, especially when you aren't playing Retreat and are playing a 4th Chord. Knight is another threat that has to be dealt with, yes, but unlike Finks once it eats a removal spell it's gone. Finks can keep coming back with Vizier or Township. They both have their pros and cons, which is why I want to see if mashing them together gives something worth looking at.
Is there a way to determine combo density for Abzan lists? By that I mean the threat (or, to better relate to physics, the mass/weight) each combo piece or tutor/value cars that can get a combo piece divided by the volume (or rather slots) dedicated to those cards.
I mean, it's easy for Storm as their entire deck is focused on one combo, but Vizier Company can have two or three combos, often with overlapping pieces.
Also, before I lose myself to meaningless theoretics, should I jam 1x Saffi Eriksdotter if running 1x Renegade Rallier in addition to 1x Viscera Seer, 1x Anafenza Kin-Tree Spirit 4x Kitchen Finks, 3x Vizier of Remedies, and 4x Devoted Druid?
Well Druid is a 'kill-on-sight' card because if you untap with it you can probably find a way to win, or at least that's what your opponent will be thinking. The Druid combo is just so much more streamlined than the Finks one that you should be paying 4 Viziers for maximum consistency. For a while after Vizier was printed I was playing Anafenza but it just felt so bad to put her into play alongside a Druid and not be winning... Vizier is also high on the threat list because it makes Finks block forever, but you need an non-summoning sick Druid to combo off so people can usually leave it in play and not worry too much until a second piece of either combo comes into play. Finks not as much because once it has a -1/-1 counter on it, it wont be combing off without a 4th card to remove the counter (Gavony or Anafenza + creature). Saffi + Rallier + Seer isn't as useful as it may seem. Not really worth playing that. Spellsite / Rallier do a better job than those, although Saffi is a card I'm always keeping an eye on.
The reason I'm moving away from the Finks combo entirely is that the Druid one just works better. Yes there are times where you have infinite mana and can only dump your hand, but in every other instance its better than 1/5th of your deck will find you a win somehow. The Finks combo can't win by drawing a wide range of cards, and even if it does you need 2 pieces off of a Company or specific lands off of a Chord. There is more of an "oops I win" factor with Druid which is why I like it a lot more and don't mind dropping the Finks combo. All my talk about KotR only helps that "oops I win" amount go up.
For Eldrazi Tron, you shouldn't be bringing it in anyways... It shuts off their Expedition Map and that's really it.
Map and Relic of Progenitus, Walking Ballista and Ratchet Bomb.
There is a decisive card for Eldratron?
I've never had a problem with the matchup. If they get to the realm of 7+ mana then you're going to be in for some pain, but for the most part you can be a turn faster than them. If we are on the play our Turn 1 dork will survive save a Dismember, which should be saved for Druid anyways. This would mean that they can't get turn 3 Tron so we'll be safe to try and win by turn 4 as long as we have 1 form of protection. We're pretty much guaranteed to have 3 mana on turn 2 which is used to play combo pieces and then find the last one on turn 3 to win. If we are on the play it gets a lot harder as they can play a Ballista for 1 and shoot our mana dork which slows us down a lot. They still can't deal with us naturally having the combo so a T2 Druid is safe outside of Dismember or Warping Wail (But I play a high Rallier count than others which helps vs this).
Basically without turn 3 Tron they can't play a Chalice for 2 or Ballisa for enough to actually kill our Druids. If they play a Dismsmber then they won't have turn 3 Tron and gives us 1 turn to find one again. TKS can be annoying as it takes a third piece from our hand, but when that's happened I've got lucky with topecks, or just used Horizon Canopy to dig a bit more.
Ratchet Bomb takes 3 turns to get to 2 counters so you don't have to worry about it unless you are really slow. Ballista is only relevant once they can cast it for X >= 2 which either means they can't on the draw, and if they're on the play and have Tron + Ballista + Dismember then you're probably dead anyways. Relic is pretty easy to ignore. You're not going to be able to chain together Companies off of EWit so look to have a Chord in your opener. We don't use the graveyard much anymore anyways so its not too bad to combo through it. Map is the only thing that scares me from their deck.
Being faster than them has never been a huge problem for me. Mulligan hard for what you need and you can slip past their minimal interaction as I've found they can often only cast 1 thing to disrupt you before you combo off. It's not a great matchup by any means but its definitely doable like normal Tron.
Hey guys- I'm doing the classic this weekend in DC (Dulles, not really DC but whatever) with vizier knightfall. Can you guys take a look at my list and tell me what you think? I'm trying a weird approach with spell queller side to go more into knightfall mode if that seems better, but if you guys think thats dumb let me know.
I've considered doing the bant lists with queller main and also regular abzan, I'd be curious to see if anyone would try to convince me to do one of these over my current list.
Got some potentially not so easy questions for you experts here:
1) recently came into possession of extra noble hierarch and now have a full playset. I'm playing the abzan variant and have (until now) been on 4x birds and 2x heriarch. Is there an argument to be made to increase the number of hierarchs? If so, why? I am going to test 4 noble and 2 birds just to see how it feels but I'll be working off a tiny sample size. Any greater experience appreciated.
2) have taken to running 2x maindeck sin collector instead of the spicy 2x path to exile I was running. Any thoughts on this? I feel like in most game-1s you want to be jamming the combo as fast as possible but depending on what your opponent reveals, it could be correct to jam hierarch into turn-2 sin collector to shut down (for instance) a storm deck. Especially on the draw I feel like this is a decent insurance policy, great against removal heavy decks as well, and with eternal witness and company it's a strong disruptive option. Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Hey guys- I'm doing the classic this weekend in DC (Dulles, not really DC but whatever) with vizier knightfall. Can you guys take a look at my list and tell me what you think? I'm trying a weird approach with spell queller side to go more into knightfall mode if that seems better, but if you guys think thats dumb let me know.
I've considered doing the bant lists with queller main and also regular abzan, I'd be curious to see if anyone would try to convince me to do one of these over my current list.
Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to getting this experience at the classic.
(Posted this in knightfall too, sorry if it annoys anyone)
What I've found with Vizier Knightfall is that you still want the full combo suite, meaning play 4 Viziers. I feel that 4 EWit is necessary since it acts as another combo piece. If you get infinite mana then topdecking an EWit can be the difference of winning or losing since it acts as an extension of all the other win-on-the-spot cards that have already found their way into your yard this game. A lot of people like Pridemage main but there is nothing you can't win through without it game 1 so I've been fine with only 1 in the sideboard. I have been fine with 20 lands and 8 dorks but your 21 lands and 7 is also fine. I don't think you need 2 Temple Gardens though, just one of each shock is fine and I've never had mana issues. This would open up for something like Ghost Quarter to combat Eldrazi Tron, but its more of a personal preference. I personally have never played Spell Queller, it's not how I like to build the deck, but if you are playing it in the side why not swap the Reflector Mage numbers and it? Game 1 it works as a better catch all against combo decks where Reflector Mage may miss or be a bit too slow and it directly protects your own combo form any maindeck spot removal (which there is in general less of game 1).
Do you have an idea what the meta will be like? I like Abzan Vizier builds for the sideboard cards and ability to play a longer grindy game a bit better. It's better vs UW, UWR, Death's Shadow, BG/x midrange, and can have more tutorable disruptive cards to mess with combo decks like Storm or Ad Naus. I does have an extra Chord maindeck which can lead to a very very marginally more consistent turn 3 combo which is nice for racing most decks you just don't want to pay magic against. Both decks are viable though, so if you are more comfortable playing the Knightfall variant then do that. I think you'll get more help over in that thread than here.
Got some potentially not so easy questions for you experts here:
1) recently came into possession of extra noble hierarch and now have a full playset. I'm playing the abzan variant and have (until now) been on 4x birds and 2x heriarch. Is there an argument to be made to increase the number of hierarchs? If so, why? I am going to test 4 noble and 2 birds just to see how it feels but I'll be working off a tiny sample size. Any greater experience appreciated.
2) have taken to running 2x maindeck sin collector instead of the spicy 2x path to exile I was running. Any thoughts on this? I feel like in most game-1s you want to be jamming the combo as fast as possible but depending on what your opponent reveals, it could be correct to jam hierarch into turn-2 sin collector to shut down (for instance) a storm deck. Especially on the draw I feel like this is a decent insurance policy, great against removal heavy decks as well, and with eternal witness and company it's a strong disruptive option. Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
1) I have always played 4 Birds and 3 Nobles. Recently with my KotR experiments I've been playing 4 of both and 1 less land and it's been fine, if not a little more explosive even. It has the tradeoff of less lands in the long run, a bit more speed early on, but also opens you up to bigger blowouts. Since the deck can either operate on: T1 dork > T2 3 mana threat or T1 dork bolted > T2 combo piece (ideally druid), I haven't been having a problem ever really needing more than 2 lands in my opener and if I draw the third by turn 3 then that is a bonus. I think in traditional builds I wouldn't play 4 of both dorks and 7 is the highest I would ever go, with 6 being the lowest. Playing 4 Nobles and 2 Birds cuts you off of Black for your sideboard cards and really we don't care that much about exalted. When we are beating down its with Gavony making a bunch of dudes bigger at once or when the opponent has run out of resources but we still have Finks in play. I've never noticed a difference between a 4/3 Finks only in combat and a 3/2 Finks at any other time. Often it only gets in 1, maybe 2, attacks before the opponent has something to stop it (Goyf, Tasigur, Angler, DS, Primetime, Thalia, etc...) or they remove it by then. Mana consistency is more important than Exalted.
2) Well what relevant deck does Sin Collector do better against than Path? All I can think of is Ad Nauseum and Burn? Where they're equal I'd say is Titan Shift both taking Primetime or Scapeshift, Storm taking a creature or Gifts/PiF (but other stuff can be not as relevant), BG/x they kinda come out to the same value. In everything else Path is as decent or better, so its just going to be a more flexible card most of the time. Also you can hold it until it is relevant and not have to play it blind and hope to hit something. I'd say Path is better but I personally don't agree with maindecking it. I like as high of a creature count as I can manage.
What you guys think about this Bant lists that made results in the last SCG Open?
Looks like when you can't combo you just switch to a Bant Tempo version with Geist and stuff. Intersting IMO, but maybe against other combos (like Storm) would be a hard match.
Hey guys, this is the deck as it stands I want to take to the SCG classic tomorrow outside of DC. Have a couple questions, and would take any suggestions:
1) Do I need more Graveyard hate? 2nd ooze, Pharika, Surgical, Anafenza?
2) I'm trying to combo ASAP in game one, any way to help with that in your opinion?
3) Is pontiff good enough? Other cards I consider there are kataki, big angels like linvala or sigarda, or just more of what i have already.
4) Do I need the second viscera seer or is that better as a 4th witness or something else?
5) I'm at 21 lands, would you guys argue to 20 or 22 at this point?
6) Opinion of courser and rhonas? Courser I thought helps filter to combo with additional value attached, but doesn't attack well and rhonas is another sink, though I'm not sure it's necessary.
7) Manabase- is it too painful?
Thanks guys! It's been great reading all the feedback in here before the event.
Made a few changes before the rounds began. I cut the Stony Silence from the board and added 1 Sigarda and 1 Path since very few players play E-Tron, Affinity, regular Tron or Lantern control. Playing a second Overgrown Tomb instead of a second Razorverge Thicket was a mistake as I originally had planned playing Push instead of Path but forgot to change the lands back last minute.
These were the rounds played:
Round 1: 2-0 against Bogles. Easy matchup. I comboed off game 1 and killed him with beatdown thanks to Finks and Rhonas.
Round 2: 2-1 against Jeskai Midrange. Really glad I played my 3 Voices in the deck as they helped me win game 2 and 3. Lost game 1 as I couldn't find enough lands in time.
Round 3: 0-2 against the mirror. He didnt play the Abzan version but a Naya version instead with Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon. He comboed off turn 3 game 1 and game 2 was a grindy game but he eventually comboed off.
Round 4: 2-1 against Mono Black Obliterator. Played against a deck that was mono black with Phyrexian Obliterator, Gifted Aetherborn, Liliana of the Veil and different kind of disruption (Inqusition and Push etc.). Lost game 1 as I didn't draw my third land. Won game 2 with Township beats and won game 3 by comboing off with Devoted Druid.
Round 5: 2-0 against Burn. Comboed off both games with Kitchen Finks. Finks does a lot of work in that matchup and Sin Collector helps as well.
Round 6: 2-0 against UR Storm. Comboed off turn 3 game 1 and game 2 I had alot of disruption (Sin Collector taking Past in flames, Decay killing his Baral and then I also had Eidolon). Killed him by just attacking a couple of times. Storm feels like a good matchups as I'm currently 5-1 against the deck.
As it is I will still continue to play Voice in the maindeck as it help the bad matchups which are primarily Jeskai Midrange and other removal heavy decks.
Nice!
What's your side in and out against Storm and UWx? Annoying matches to me.
I’ve been giving the decklist some thought and I am assuming that Oscar ran 4 duskwatch recruiter because it is a great mana sink (most decks run 9-12 mana dorks) and this helps you tutor up either of the combos. The flip-side (no pun intended) is that he can flip and provide a reasonable beater. However in my games I’ve felt multiples have been that useful and therefore thinking of making the following changes;
Dark Confidant
Admittedly this is a bit more taxing on the manabase and I would probably need to add a basic swamp(?), but this cards is a prime target for removal. Which may take the heat off of our combo creatures. Plus it gives card advantage and given we are playing an infinite life combo the life-loss hopefully won’t be that significant. However, this doesn’t allow us to look at three cards and potentially draw a win, nor does it provide a good beater unless pumped by gavony township.
Kitesail Freebooter
I’ve been testing a 4C human build that runs a playset of this guy. Having cheap hand disruption has been awesome and unlike tidehollow sculler the mana is more achievable. The added bonus is that this creature has flying, so a few Townships boosts or Exalted triggers gives you a reasonable attacker. The other bonus is you get to look at your opponents hand, so can; snipe a removal spell, figure out what deck the opponent is playing and try and determine whether it is safe(ish) to drop a combo piece. If you manage to take an opponents combo piece they will have to remove it. The downsides are that it is a weak creature and won’t help us tutor the combo.
Voice of Resurgence
I know this card featured in historic lists, but with the amount of removal I face in my games I’m wondering whether it’s worth inclusion again. The mana makes it easy to cast and obviously can provide a hefty token. However it doesn’t really help our gameplan of comboing as early possible.
Anyone got any thoughts?
I’m most tempted to try kitesail Freebooter unless anyone can convince me otherwise.
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So with the Bant version from Kyle Boggles (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/counters_company_with_kyle_bog.html) doing well recently, is the blue splash better positioned in the current meta vs black? Spell queller is amazing and hits ALL the impactful cards of top tier decks (TKS, scapeshift, almost everything in the mirror, everything in storm), GoST provides a quick clock against stuff like tron, storm and AN and sideboard Unified Wills seem decent against combo (though with baral and electromancer, it seems unlikely you'll have two creatures out early enough to turn it on). The other problem is that queller is slow and not great against swarm/aggro decks (affinity) and burn. Black allows sin collector, Brutality, viscera seer/finks combo MB, thoughtseize and friends, pontiff. Seems better against combo and aggro decks but worse against Tron (etron and regular), valakut and control decks.
Going into the regionals next week, what would be the optimal splash knowing a wide open meta?
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hey that's my list! It was actually at the classic, I made a critical mistake against storm in the open and missed day 2 because of it.
It sounds like you were expecting the retreat combo to happen a little too often. The idea is that the vizier combo is plan A, and knight of the reliquary offers a very solid plan B for the beatdown, giving you a very fast way to close out the game, or tutor up kessig/gavony to out value your opponents (along w/ the coco ewitt plan, but that's nothing new). The retreat combo is almost a plan C, and basically just gives you some free wins when you catch your opponent's with their pants down. Been on the list for probably two months or so now, feel free to ask me any questions.
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Vs Jeskai you just want lots of stuff on the field to overload their things. Finks and Witness are great, Collector as well. Patient play is important here, play around counterspells when possible, bait removal, etc.
Vs mirror... Finks are alright but not great. Inf. life rarely matters (can't beat it without Ballista). Basically you want a bit of interaction and a fast combo, similar to Valakut.
Vs Valakut fast combo + cheap interaction of sorts is the way to go. BFT, Spirit, discard, search/landhate are all fine. Remember, you're not trying to lock them out and punch them to death, you're trying to hold them off a turn or two and then combo them out. Also make sure to not board too much, you'll need all your combo intact.
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Have you tried the (still) bant version that put up results this weekend in the scg modern open? It cuts the knight plan for spell queller. I'm gearing up for a another modern classic this weekend and have to decide if i want the knights for the midrange or queller for more disruption, curious if you've tested both and your thoughts!!! Heres one of the lists- http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116828
Also congrats to Ben Ragan who got 3rd at the event with the abzan version!
I haven't had the time, but I'm 100% going to try a fauna shaman in my list. That card actually seems pretty sick. Ben Ragan is actually a friend of a friend's, and was on the vizier knightfall plan until very recently as well.
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a bunch of people made day 2 at the recent SCG event with the inclusion of queller in their decks and for what it's worth, they rated the card. there must be something more to it than you're implying here.
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StaffOne thing I noticed is that a lot of decks were playing lower land counts, which is something that I've been doing lately too. I've gone down from 22 lands to 21, and am even tempted to cut that down to 20 and just play a 4th Noble Hierarch. Two weeks ago I went 4-0 on two different nights, then last week went 3-1 on two different nights. Loses were to Storm one night (not drawing interaction or the combo fast enough) and UWR Control (16 Bolts/Paths/Helix's + Verdicts can be hard to beat). That puts me at 14-2 across 4 events which looks good but remember that it's at a local level. My current list is here:
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Spellskite
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
Been missing playing against BG decks so Kitchen Finks has been preeeeety lackluster. I really haven't been grinding games at all and they all either end with some decisive combo on the opponents side or on mine. The metagame should eventually shift back once midrange hates out all the combo so I will go back eventually, but for now it has got me thinking.....
The Vizier Knightfall decks are playing Knight of the Reliquary as sort of a Plan B to get some random wins with Retreat to Coralhelm but it also does double duty as a combo piece by its ability to search up Kessig Wolf Run. Kessig allows us to have a win-condition piece in our manabase which frees up another deck slot for creatures, thus making our Companies that much better. I have liked this idea ever since it was talked about way way back in the thread but nothing ever really came of is until people started playing Vizier Knightfall. So I have been playing around with this list recently:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Walking Ballista
Spells
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
3 Path to Exile
3 Unified Will
It's basically just your typical Vizier Knightfall deck but with Renegade Rallier instead of Reflector Mage. I've been liking Rallier a lot lately and it just really ups the speed of the combo since your first Druid is almost always getting removed. It also works better in this deck since you have slightly more fetchlands and KotR to activate Revolt each turn. Speaking of, Knight of the Reliquary acts as a mana dork in a way in that you get to ramp with it outside of Chord. If it untaps it will usually be a 4/4 to 5/5 or larger, and can help you dump the rest of your hand. Beyond that it is just a huge creature that can can rival Eldrazi and smash face for a lot of damage. You also get some random wins with Retreat to Coralhelm as I said before so when that comes up it feels good. The last thing I found with the deck is that I almost always found myself fetching basic forests because I had so much mana available from Dorks/Druids/KotR. It's a 4 colour deck but I had been searching for basics more than ever. This makes me wonder if I can jam everything together into one monstrosity of a deck.
I now like the black splash more for the sideboard cards than for the Finks combo. It just never comes up and I wouldn't feel bad just cutting a Viscera Seer. This brings me to my next question about the deck, if I put in KotR then do I also play blue for Retreat to Coralhelm for the odd free wins that come up? From 4 Birds and 4 Hierarch there was never a problem naturally having Blue mana so I never really fetched it up. Red was the problem because only Birds could naturally make it so I'd have to find it and even with KotR it would take two turns to get both it and Kessig. This is the main reason for me to be weary of playing both Black and Red as splashes. I can just not play retreat and Blue to get some more consistency and safety in Kitchen Finks, and use the Vizier Knightfall manabase but cut the Blue and add in some Black. This leaves me with a deck looking something like this:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Walking Ballista
Spells
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
This drops the land count down to 20, which is super low but with 8 Dorks, 4 Druids, and 3 Knights you have a lot of mana production going to be going on. There is less need to hit 4 mana for Companies and 5 for Gavony since the opponents spot removal won't be able to keep up with your dorks Game 1. Second you have to drop Ralliers to slot in KotR, and in that slightly drop Finks numbers (which I don't mind, they're only needed in grindy matchups). KotR allows us to play only 1 Township and 1 Wolf Run which gives 'an additional land slot', which was shaved to play a 4th Hierarch. With more 3 drops it is super crucial to have the T1 one every time and backup ones. Also as a last note, I am plying Ballista as combo (Storm, Ad Naus, etc..) is high right now and you want to win on the spot. It also kills Storm creatures which is nice. In a different meta I'd be playing Rhonas.
So now my questions (before testing) are:
- Play the 4th Hierarch or cut it to open up another slot?
- Play 4 KotR or 3? Do we shave a Finks down to 2 copies to do this or play a 3/3 split?
- Do we play a Blood Crypt? This meets both the Red and Black requirements in 1 land, where otherwise you need 1 additional search to win with Kessig and still play sideboard cards. This would mean -1 Stomping Ground -1 Overgrown Tomb +1 Temple Garden +1 Blood Crypt
- Without Rallier should we play 2 Horizon Canopy instead of 1?
- Do we even need the Viscera Seer game 1 or should it be in the sideboard?
- Should it still play Retreat to Coralhelm for free KotR wins or is that too greedy?
I have to play with these numbers and questions to see what I like. Will get back about it, but I am feeling kinda sick now so I may not play much this week. If other people can weigh in that'd be great. I've put a lot of thought into this and it is at least semi-viable as seen by Knightfall decks already, but I have to find a good balance of greed and pliability.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Are there any maindeckable cards that hose flyers? My meta is full of them.
I mean, it's easy for Storm as their entire deck is focused on one combo, but Vizier Company can have two or three combos, often with overlapping pieces.
Also, before I lose myself to meaningless theoretics, should I jam 1x Saffi Eriksdotter if running 1x Renegade Rallier in addition to 1x Viscera Seer, 1x Anafenza Kin-Tree Spirit 4x Kitchen Finks, 3x Vizier of Remedies, and 4x Devoted Druid?
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Staff- Play the 4th Hierarch or cut it to open up another slot?
Playing the 4th has been great for me in the Knightfall deck so I think I can stick to it in this 2.0 version. Having a lower land count for more action is nice and I haven't had any real problems yet.
- Play 4 KotR or 3? Do we shave a Finks down to 2 copies to do this or play a 3/3 split?
Looking at it more, Finks are only there for the midrange matchups (and burn) to grind out the opponent. The combo never happens anymore since the Druid-Vizier one is just faster and takes less effort to assemble. I think playing 4/2 KotR/Finks is fine so that's what I'll start with. This is for a more combo-oriented metagame, and if I expected more midrange then I'd play the 3/3 split. I don't think there is one right answer to this. It just comes down to how fast you want to combo off vs play the long game.
- Do we play a Blood Crypt? This meets both the Red and Black requirements in 1 land, where otherwise you need 1 additional search to win with Kessig and still play sideboard cards. This would mean -1 Stomping Ground -1 Overgrown Tomb +1 Temple Garden +1 Blood Crypt
If the manabase was anything higher than 20 lands I could justify having 3 nongreen sources but that's not gonna happen with here. Perhaps if I cut a Chord, but then the deck is slightly worse off at the combo... The biggest thing for me is that we don't need a G or W source on every land because there is no Retreat for KotR. With more Dorks there is always enough coloured mana flying around too, at least that's how I am justifying it.
- Do we even need the Viscera Seer game 1 or should it be in the sideboard?
Yeah I'm at the same point. I think it'd still be maindeckable with 3 Finks but it's just not what I'm going for with this version of the deck.
- Should it still play Retreat to Coralhelm for free KotR wins or is that too greedy?
Once I find some good numbers I'll try to throw some in haha. For now I gotta make this playable as-is.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
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StaffThe reason I'm moving away from the Finks combo entirely is that the Druid one just works better. Yes there are times where you have infinite mana and can only dump your hand, but in every other instance its better than 1/5th of your deck will find you a win somehow. The Finks combo can't win by drawing a wide range of cards, and even if it does you need 2 pieces off of a Company or specific lands off of a Chord. There is more of an "oops I win" factor with Druid which is why I like it a lot more and don't mind dropping the Finks combo. All my talk about KotR only helps that "oops I win" amount go up.
I've never had a problem with the matchup. If they get to the realm of 7+ mana then you're going to be in for some pain, but for the most part you can be a turn faster than them. If we are on the play our Turn 1 dork will survive save a Dismember, which should be saved for Druid anyways. This would mean that they can't get turn 3 Tron so we'll be safe to try and win by turn 4 as long as we have 1 form of protection. We're pretty much guaranteed to have 3 mana on turn 2 which is used to play combo pieces and then find the last one on turn 3 to win. If we are on the play it gets a lot harder as they can play a Ballista for 1 and shoot our mana dork which slows us down a lot. They still can't deal with us naturally having the combo so a T2 Druid is safe outside of Dismember or Warping Wail (But I play a high Rallier count than others which helps vs this).
Basically without turn 3 Tron they can't play a Chalice for 2 or Ballisa for enough to actually kill our Druids. If they play a Dismsmber then they won't have turn 3 Tron and gives us 1 turn to find one again. TKS can be annoying as it takes a third piece from our hand, but when that's happened I've got lucky with topecks, or just used Horizon Canopy to dig a bit more.
Ratchet Bomb takes 3 turns to get to 2 counters so you don't have to worry about it unless you are really slow. Ballista is only relevant once they can cast it for X >= 2 which either means they can't on the draw, and if they're on the play and have Tron + Ballista + Dismember then you're probably dead anyways. Relic is pretty easy to ignore. You're not going to be able to chain together Companies off of EWit so look to have a Chord in your opener. We don't use the graveyard much anymore anyways so its not too bad to combo through it. Map is the only thing that scares me from their deck.
Being faster than them has never been a huge problem for me. Mulligan hard for what you need and you can slip past their minimal interaction as I've found they can often only cast 1 thing to disrupt you before you combo off. It's not a great matchup by any means but its definitely doable like normal Tron.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I've considered doing the bant lists with queller main and also regular abzan, I'd be curious to see if anyone would try to convince me to do one of these over my current list.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/17-10-17-vizier-knightfall/
Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to getting this experience at the classic.
(Posted this in knightfall too, sorry if it annoys anyone)
1) recently came into possession of extra noble hierarch and now have a full playset. I'm playing the abzan variant and have (until now) been on 4x birds and 2x heriarch. Is there an argument to be made to increase the number of hierarchs? If so, why? I am going to test 4 noble and 2 birds just to see how it feels but I'll be working off a tiny sample size. Any greater experience appreciated.
2) have taken to running 2x maindeck sin collector instead of the spicy 2x path to exile I was running. Any thoughts on this? I feel like in most game-1s you want to be jamming the combo as fast as possible but depending on what your opponent reveals, it could be correct to jam hierarch into turn-2 sin collector to shut down (for instance) a storm deck. Especially on the draw I feel like this is a decent insurance policy, great against removal heavy decks as well, and with eternal witness and company it's a strong disruptive option. Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
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StaffDo you have an idea what the meta will be like? I like Abzan Vizier builds for the sideboard cards and ability to play a longer grindy game a bit better. It's better vs UW, UWR, Death's Shadow, BG/x midrange, and can have more tutorable disruptive cards to mess with combo decks like Storm or Ad Naus. I does have an extra Chord maindeck which can lead to a very very marginally more consistent turn 3 combo which is nice for racing most decks you just don't want to pay magic against. Both decks are viable though, so if you are more comfortable playing the Knightfall variant then do that. I think you'll get more help over in that thread than here.
1) I have always played 4 Birds and 3 Nobles. Recently with my KotR experiments I've been playing 4 of both and 1 less land and it's been fine, if not a little more explosive even. It has the tradeoff of less lands in the long run, a bit more speed early on, but also opens you up to bigger blowouts. Since the deck can either operate on: T1 dork > T2 3 mana threat or T1 dork bolted > T2 combo piece (ideally druid), I haven't been having a problem ever really needing more than 2 lands in my opener and if I draw the third by turn 3 then that is a bonus. I think in traditional builds I wouldn't play 4 of both dorks and 7 is the highest I would ever go, with 6 being the lowest. Playing 4 Nobles and 2 Birds cuts you off of Black for your sideboard cards and really we don't care that much about exalted. When we are beating down its with Gavony making a bunch of dudes bigger at once or when the opponent has run out of resources but we still have Finks in play. I've never noticed a difference between a 4/3 Finks only in combat and a 3/2 Finks at any other time. Often it only gets in 1, maybe 2, attacks before the opponent has something to stop it (Goyf, Tasigur, Angler, DS, Primetime, Thalia, etc...) or they remove it by then. Mana consistency is more important than Exalted.
2) Well what relevant deck does Sin Collector do better against than Path? All I can think of is Ad Nauseum and Burn? Where they're equal I'd say is Titan Shift both taking Primetime or Scapeshift, Storm taking a creature or Gifts/PiF (but other stuff can be not as relevant), BG/x they kinda come out to the same value. In everything else Path is as decent or better, so its just going to be a more flexible card most of the time. Also you can hold it until it is relevant and not have to play it blind and hope to hit something. I'd say Path is better but I personally don't agree with maindecking it. I like as high of a creature count as I can manage.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Looks like when you can't combo you just switch to a Bant Tempo version with Geist and stuff. Intersting IMO, but maybe against other combos (like Storm) would be a hard match.
1x Walking Ballista
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Viscera Seer
4x Devoted Druid
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eternal Witness
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Collected Company
4x Chord of Calling
Lands
4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Razorverge Thicket
2x Temple Garden
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Godless Shrine
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
1x Plains
2x Gavony Township
2x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfless Spirit
2x Voice of Resurgence
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Sin Collector
Hey guys, this is the deck as it stands I want to take to the SCG classic tomorrow outside of DC. Have a couple questions, and would take any suggestions:
1) Do I need more Graveyard hate? 2nd ooze, Pharika, Surgical, Anafenza?
2) I'm trying to combo ASAP in game one, any way to help with that in your opinion?
3) Is pontiff good enough? Other cards I consider there are kataki, big angels like linvala or sigarda, or just more of what i have already.
4) Do I need the second viscera seer or is that better as a 4th witness or something else?
5) I'm at 21 lands, would you guys argue to 20 or 22 at this point?
6) Opinion of courser and rhonas? Courser I thought helps filter to combo with additional value attached, but doesn't attack well and rhonas is another sink, though I'm not sure it's necessary.
7) Manabase- is it too painful?
Thanks guys! It's been great reading all the feedback in here before the event.
Nice!
What's your side in and out against Storm and UWx? Annoying matches to me.
I’ve been giving the decklist some thought and I am assuming that Oscar ran 4 duskwatch recruiter because it is a great mana sink (most decks run 9-12 mana dorks) and this helps you tutor up either of the combos. The flip-side (no pun intended) is that he can flip and provide a reasonable beater. However in my games I’ve felt multiples have been that useful and therefore thinking of making the following changes;
-3 duskwatch recruiter +3 dark confidant
OR
-3 duskwatch recruiter +3 kitesail Freebooter
OR
-3 duskwatch recruiter +3 voice of resurgence
But of card rationale
Dark Confidant
Admittedly this is a bit more taxing on the manabase and I would probably need to add a basic swamp(?), but this cards is a prime target for removal. Which may take the heat off of our combo creatures. Plus it gives card advantage and given we are playing an infinite life combo the life-loss hopefully won’t be that significant. However, this doesn’t allow us to look at three cards and potentially draw a win, nor does it provide a good beater unless pumped by gavony township.
Kitesail Freebooter
I’ve been testing a 4C human build that runs a playset of this guy. Having cheap hand disruption has been awesome and unlike tidehollow sculler the mana is more achievable. The added bonus is that this creature has flying, so a few Townships boosts or Exalted triggers gives you a reasonable attacker. The other bonus is you get to look at your opponents hand, so can; snipe a removal spell, figure out what deck the opponent is playing and try and determine whether it is safe(ish) to drop a combo piece. If you manage to take an opponents combo piece they will have to remove it. The downsides are that it is a weak creature and won’t help us tutor the combo.
Voice of Resurgence
I know this card featured in historic lists, but with the amount of removal I face in my games I’m wondering whether it’s worth inclusion again. The mana makes it easy to cast and obviously can provide a hefty token. However it doesn’t really help our gameplan of comboing as early possible.
Anyone got any thoughts?
I’m most tempted to try kitesail Freebooter unless anyone can convince me otherwise.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
So with the Bant version from Kyle Boggles (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/counters_company_with_kyle_bog.html) doing well recently, is the blue splash better positioned in the current meta vs black? Spell queller is amazing and hits ALL the impactful cards of top tier decks (TKS, scapeshift, almost everything in the mirror, everything in storm), GoST provides a quick clock against stuff like tron, storm and AN and sideboard Unified Wills seem decent against combo (though with baral and electromancer, it seems unlikely you'll have two creatures out early enough to turn it on). The other problem is that queller is slow and not great against swarm/aggro decks (affinity) and burn. Black allows sin collector, Brutality, viscera seer/finks combo MB, thoughtseize and friends, pontiff. Seems better against combo and aggro decks but worse against Tron (etron and regular), valakut and control decks.
Going into the regionals next week, what would be the optimal splash knowing a wide open meta?
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
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RIP Twin