That's fair, though I should specify that I never assumed Congregation would be good in any matchup outside of maybe Tron and other decks where we need to combo into a kill before we lose.
I'll put this testing on the back-burner for now, instead opting to test a red splash for Purphoros over Redcap for extra reach.
Should also mention that I don't really like our Tron matchup with the current stock list, hence all the ideas I'm entertaining.
1) I had a winning tron matchup with a stomping ground and 3 crumble to dust in the sideboard. It was warping and annoying but it worked. It was not winning by much, but I did beat Tron twice in one night once, and went about 50/50 overall.
2) Eerie Interlude is a card you can sub in for Chords. If you can interlude the first board wipe your likelihood of winning goes up.
3) 3 blood artists in the main deck. It'll make you faster, and give you a faster route to combo than redcap, and the last combo piece hits off coco. It's still pretty luck intensive, but achievable.
4) Sideboard 2 redcaps. Attempt to curve into one of the two redcap combos that kill instantly (redcap+melira+anafenza, or melafenza+seer+cap).
5) That new Heroic Intervention is very strong against Tron. Stops all their wipes except Ugin and can give you the turn you need to beat an Ulamog trigger.
Honestly though those new Tron decks that don't play Pyroclasm should be much better matchups for us; brutality is not terribly good against us, at least not in comparison to pyroclasm.
Hmm . . . very nice. And yeah I'm specifically referring to GR Tron, in particular those that still opt for Anger of the Gods, so maybe their experimentation with various lists will make the matchup easier to some extent.
Guys, the red splash is ridiculous, let's stay focused. If you're going to do it think about what the deck actually wants from red instead of putting random non-synergistic aggro cards in. The main draw to red would be for powerhouse cards (in our shell) like StingScourger or Grim Lavamancer or Crumble to Dust.
Straining the manabase generally requires giving up some number of township too, which I think is a huge mistake.
Sit back and think hard about what problem you're trying to solve, be disciplined, and look at the downsides. Competitive deckbuilding is way more than just jamming cards in to see if they work.
Guys, the red splash is ridiculous, let's stay focused. If you're going to do it think about what the deck actually wants from red instead of putting random non-synergistic aggro cards in. The main draw to red would be for powerhouse cards (in our shell) like StingScourger or Grim Lavamancer or Crumble to Dust.
Straining the manabase generally requires giving up some number of township too, which I think is a huge mistake.
Sit back and think hard about what problem you're trying to solve, be disciplined, and look at the downsides. Competitive deckbuilding is way more than just jamming cards in to see if they work.
While I agree that jamming aggro cards in a midrange-combo shell is a bad idea, the red splash both has merit and is easy to jam into the mana base.
Just swap an Overgrown Tomb for a Stomping Ground since Redcap uses hybrid mana as well and voila: access to red for Slaughter Games, Crumble to Dust, Moon effects, etc.
Also I should take this time to say I'm trying Purphoros over Redcap to turn excess Dorks into Shocks to the face without eliminating the combo potential.
Going to try something like this. Been working on it for a little bit, haven't tested a ton. I have been playing Abzan Midrange recently and my metagme has been full of GW and U tron and valakut decks. The 2nd place finish at the SCG classic today was fairly similar, but had a Saffi, amnd only 3 finks. I can't do that because it seems terrible. The rallier and Voice interactions is way too strong to be ignored, IMO.
Noteworthy is that he is up to 3 Trackers in main.
Eh, more noteworthy is the 2nd place company deck with 3 renegade ralliers and voices, IMHO. That tech is almost a combo (sac a voice to trigger revolt, cast rallier get voice back). Saffi in the place of spellskite too is pretty interesting; does most of the same job and also presents another combo angle. Almost surely will try that myself.
Some funny combat math:
If you board is: Birds, Seer, Voice, and you go sac voice, coco, and hit a rallier and a bird (a conservative coco), you can get voice, sac voice, untap, activate township and swing for:
Bird - 1/2
Bird - 1/2
Seer - 2/2
Rallier - 4/3
Voice Token - 7/7 (6+1)
Voice Token - 7/7
(20-22, depending on how many birds you have to tap to activate township)
That's pretty grotesque if you think about it. Interaction is extremely unlikely to be at parity as well.
Definitely on board the rallier+voice hype. Though I am seriously doubtful we can go below 3 sac outlets with that kinda build.
Noteworthy is that he is up to 3 Trackers in main.
Eh, more noteworthy is the 2nd place company deck with 3 renegade ralliers and voices, IMHO. That tech is almost a combo (sac a voice to trigger revolt, cast rallier get voice back). Saffi in the place of spellskite too is pretty interesting; does most of the same job and also presents another combo angle. Almost surely will try that myself.
Some funny combat math:
If you board is: Birds, Seer, Voice, and you go sac voice, coco, and hit a rallier and a bird (a conservative coco), you can get voice, sac voice, untap, activate township and swing for:
Bird - 1/2
Bird - 1/2
Seer - 2/2
Rallier - 4/3
Voice Token - 7/7 (6+1)
Voice Token - 7/7
(20-22, depending on how many birds you have to tap to activate township)
That's pretty grotesque if you think about it. Interaction is extremely unlikely to be at parity as well.
Definitely on board the rallier+voice hype. Though I am seriously doubtful we can go below 3 sac outlets with that kinda build.
Definitely like the updates here.
Look forward to seeing Abzan Company back in the mix if the dredge hate calms down.
Worth Noting - Saffi + Rallier + Anafenza + Seer = Infinite Bolster Triggers if it hasn't already been said.
[quote from="Pokken »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/605889-abzan-company?comment=4631"]Definitely like the updates here.
Look forward to seeing Abzan Company back in the mix if the dredge hate calms down.
Worth Noting - Saffi + Rallier + Anafenza + Seer = Infinite Bolster Triggers if it hasn't already been said.
Should also say that a Red splash for Purphoros over Anafenza also contributes towards infinite damage, though that may not be necessary if using Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist.
Perhaps this is the beginning of a convergence between value-focused and combo-focused builds?
@Abraxxie - Full disclosure: my previous post splashing red did not work out for me at all but I think my plan can be improved and I'm updating it.
I like your list much better and I'd be interested to hear which cards work out well for you. Magus of the Moon could be worth the splash by itself and that's what I'm trying now (with a simplified mana base).
Thinking on the Renegade Rallier-Saffi Eriksdotter loop, I wonder what other useful "any creature ETB" or "any creature LTB" triggers the collective wisdom knows of other than:
I did a crude Gatherer search and didn't come up with anything else useful with CMC<=3 but don't have much confidence in this result.
Anyone working on this?
I have been testing the Rallier version of the deck. It is great so far. So much value, reanimates combo pieces, and gives you an infinite bolster trigger loop without finks. I think this deck will be making a comeback, at least back into tier 2.
100% agree with Pokken that the red splash is ridiculous. We have stuff to be talking about right now that's just flat-out more relevant. To chime in on Purphoros, we don't run it because: 1) it requires three other cards on field to combo off; 2) it's not worth compromising our mana base for; 3) it isn't a coco hit; 4) it's winmore; 5) it gives zero immediate value on a four-mana investment; and 6) it's literally never going to get devotion, making it just a bad enchantment. We have so many better options.
Regarding the Rallier list: hot damn. This is exactly what I was hoping to see when Rallier was first spoiled, I just didn't think it'd be as good as it apparently is. The Voice tricks are gross, and Voice is looking stronger than ever in the upcoming meta. I think this breathes new life into Tidehollow Sculler too -- play/sac Sculler, play Rallier, recur/sac Sculler is nutty. And the synergies with Pridemage and Selfless Spirit are obvious.
For me the viability of this build kinda depends on how prominent graveyard hate turns out to be in the new format. If it's everywhere, I want to continue to rely as little as possible on the graveyard (running a lot of Trackers and Coursers); but if it falls off, all those strong interactions can really push our power level / consistency.
I also wanted to take a minute to address our plan against Tron, since it's supposed to be a larger percent of the meta going forward. DeMars has been on 4x Fulminator for a while -- do y'all think that's worth it? The Rallier build that came in second this weekend didn't seem to have any cards that were there specifically for the Tron match, so I'm guessing that its plan is to just hope to avoid Tron and pick up points against the rest of the field by freeing up the sideboard slots. Those are two very different approaches -- I'm leaning towards the latter right now. Game one against Tron is bad enough that you can expect to nearly always lose it, so with Fulminators you're committing four sideboard slots banking on winning G2 AND G3, which doesn't seem so realistic.
100% agree with Pokken that the red splash is ridiculous. We have stuff to be talking about right now that's just flat-out more relevant. To chime in on Purphoros, we don't run it because: 1) it requires three other cards on field to combo off; 2) it's not worth compromising our mana base for; 3) it isn't a coco hit; 4) it's winmore; 5) it gives zero immediate value on a four-mana investment; and 6) it's literally never going to get devotion, making it just a bad enchantment. We have so many better options.
1) Technically so does Redcap unless you're lucky enough to draw into it. 2) Like I suggested earlier, swapping 1x Overgrown Tomb for 1x Stomping Ground isn't that much of a stretch, especially considering we also have Birds to back it up. 3) Again, Redcap is also a bust on a CoCo. 4) In that case Redcap is also win-more in that it only wins afters you established infinite life and infinite scry 1s most games. 5) As opposed to a 4-mana Shock-Bear? At least this gives you something to do with creatures in the event that you need direct damage but can't combo. 6) You never want to turn on Devotion for a God in a format with Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares . . . best removal is Nahiri, the Harbinger, that is pretty close to a 1-for-1.
And, while this may be oversimplified, the formula is fairly accurate for finding how many lands (S) you need main to hit the right amount (s) after drawing so many cards (p) for a 60-card deck.
S = p/s*60
B by Turn 1 on play? 1/7*60 ~ 9 (Seer)
WW by Turn 2 on play? 2/8*60 = 15 (Anafenza 2.0)
GGG by Turn 4 on play? 3/10*60 = 18 (Chord)
Now for the comparison between Redcap and Purphoros:
BB (assuming no Red) on Turn 4? 2/10*60 = 12
R on Turn 4? 1/10*60 = 6
I will concede, however, that there are better options (just not Redcap, especially concerning Rallier lists). As for the other cards we should be more focused on, I think it goes without saying that Fatal Push is good and Renegade Rallier with Saffi, Eriksdotter and Viscera Seer is an interesting combo enabler. I'd use it for infinite siphon with Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist (probably Cutthroat) or infinite Bolster triggers via Ana 2.0.
... Actually Rallier may have some use with a Red-splash alongside Stingscourger
I'd rather not acknowledge Tron even exists as a deck than throw a *****ton of cards (or in some cases a 4th color) to make your 30:70 matchup become 40:60. Also, Purphoros is kind of useless. He doesn't bring anything relevant to the table that didn't already exist in the shell of the deck.
When I initially played with Renegade Rallier, I think I had only one or two copies and never saw it come up. Decided to try it out a lot more with three and jfc it's so good with the deck. There's so many tricks it's capable of. Rebuild the combo, generate a ton of value with cards like Voice, and even goes infinite. It's so easy to turn on revolt in modern and at worst when you turn on revolt, it ramps you. Total swiss army knife that opens up the deck more.
Make sure you guys have a playset of evolutionary leap in your collections. It's going to be a really nice option with rallier, particularly since rallier can get it back and leap into more stuff. If rallier turns out good, a 2-3x leap sideboard plan is probably reasonable as an out to many forms of graveyard hate (including cage). rallier can still get fetchlands and leaps around cage even. The horizon canopy/rallier interaction's also a pretty good out to many forms of yard hate.
Re: Tron
I think with a slightly more aggressive slant (voice, rallier) we may be able to squeeze out a decent tron matchup with a mix of tricks (e.g. scullers, selfless spirit, flickerwisp, revoker, eerie interlude, heroic intervention). The voice/rallier/saffi gameplan is much more aggressive in terms of power on the board and gives you the potential to race a little better than before.
I don't think I'd stress out about it too hard unless your meta is really tron heavy though; get the deck rolling and then consider outs. I suspect that 2-3 heroic intervention and some tidehollow scullers might be enough these days.
If you can keep them off Ugin, Intervention beats all the other annoying crap they want to do including karning your lands. Note that at 2 mana this is really a unique and powerful effect that we've never had before--a way to shut off Ulamog cast triggers, Karn activations and oblivion stone.
I have 2 in the sideboard. I like then for the BGx and grixis matchups, but they aren't necesessry. You should already be favored with finks, voice, witness, and rallier, and saffi can help, too. I like Trackers, but with my list not dropping any combo pieces, and trying out 22 Lands, I'm going to stay away from main deck Tracker.
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I'll put this testing on the back-burner for now, instead opting to test a red splash for Purphoros over Redcap for extra reach.
Should also mention that I don't really like our Tron matchup with the current stock list, hence all the ideas I'm entertaining.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
1) I had a winning tron matchup with a stomping ground and 3 crumble to dust in the sideboard. It was warping and annoying but it worked. It was not winning by much, but I did beat Tron twice in one night once, and went about 50/50 overall.
2) Eerie Interlude is a card you can sub in for Chords. If you can interlude the first board wipe your likelihood of winning goes up.
3) 3 blood artists in the main deck. It'll make you faster, and give you a faster route to combo than redcap, and the last combo piece hits off coco. It's still pretty luck intensive, but achievable.
4) Sideboard 2 redcaps. Attempt to curve into one of the two redcap combos that kill instantly (redcap+melira+anafenza, or melafenza+seer+cap).
5) That new Heroic Intervention is very strong against Tron. Stops all their wipes except Ugin and can give you the turn you need to beat an Ulamog trigger.
Honestly though those new Tron decks that don't play Pyroclasm should be much better matchups for us; brutality is not terribly good against us, at least not in comparison to pyroclasm.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
Straining the manabase generally requires giving up some number of township too, which I think is a huge mistake.
Sit back and think hard about what problem you're trying to solve, be disciplined, and look at the downsides. Competitive deckbuilding is way more than just jamming cards in to see if they work.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
While I agree that jamming aggro cards in a midrange-combo shell is a bad idea, the red splash both has merit and is easy to jam into the mana base.
Just swap an Overgrown Tomb for a Stomping Ground since Redcap uses hybrid mana as well and voila: access to red for Slaughter Games, Crumble to Dust, Moon effects, etc.
Also I should take this time to say I'm trying Purphoros over Redcap to turn excess Dorks into Shocks to the face without eliminating the combo potential.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
Going to try something like this. Been working on it for a little bit, haven't tested a ton. I have been playing Abzan Midrange recently and my metagme has been full of GW and U tron and valakut decks. The 2nd place finish at the SCG classic today was fairly similar, but had a Saffi, amnd only 3 finks. I can't do that because it seems terrible. The rallier and Voice interactions is way too strong to be ignored, IMO.
Noteworthy is that he is up to 3 Trackers in main.
Eh, more noteworthy is the 2nd place company deck with 3 renegade ralliers and voices, IMHO. That tech is almost a combo (sac a voice to trigger revolt, cast rallier get voice back). Saffi in the place of spellskite too is pretty interesting; does most of the same job and also presents another combo angle. Almost surely will try that myself.
Some funny combat math:
If you board is: Birds, Seer, Voice, and you go sac voice, coco, and hit a rallier and a bird (a conservative coco), you can get voice, sac voice, untap, activate township and swing for:
Bird - 1/2
Bird - 1/2
Seer - 2/2
Rallier - 4/3
Voice Token - 7/7 (6+1)
Voice Token - 7/7
(20-22, depending on how many birds you have to tap to activate township)
That's pretty grotesque if you think about it. Interaction is extremely unlikely to be at parity as well.
Definitely on board the rallier+voice hype. Though I am seriously doubtful we can go below 3 sac outlets with that kinda build.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Definitely like the updates here.
Look forward to seeing Abzan Company back in the mix if the dredge hate calms down.
Worth Noting - Saffi + Rallier + Anafenza + Seer = Infinite Bolster Triggers if it hasn't already been said.
Should also say that a Red splash for Purphoros over Anafenza also contributes towards infinite damage, though that may not be necessary if using Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist.
Perhaps this is the beginning of a convergence between value-focused and combo-focused builds?
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
I like your list much better and I'd be interested to hear which cards work out well for you. Magus of the Moon could be worth the splash by itself and that's what I'm trying now (with a simplified mana base).
1. Aristocrats style Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat direct damage
2. Soul Sisters lifegain Soul Warden/Soul's Attendant/Auriok Champion
I did a crude Gatherer search and didn't come up with anything else useful with CMC<=3 but don't have much confidence in this result.
Anyone working on this?
@RotFarmer Did you also use Tireless Tracker in your deck?
Regarding the Rallier list: hot damn. This is exactly what I was hoping to see when Rallier was first spoiled, I just didn't think it'd be as good as it apparently is. The Voice tricks are gross, and Voice is looking stronger than ever in the upcoming meta. I think this breathes new life into Tidehollow Sculler too -- play/sac Sculler, play Rallier, recur/sac Sculler is nutty. And the synergies with Pridemage and Selfless Spirit are obvious.
For me the viability of this build kinda depends on how prominent graveyard hate turns out to be in the new format. If it's everywhere, I want to continue to rely as little as possible on the graveyard (running a lot of Trackers and Coursers); but if it falls off, all those strong interactions can really push our power level / consistency.
I also wanted to take a minute to address our plan against Tron, since it's supposed to be a larger percent of the meta going forward. DeMars has been on 4x Fulminator for a while -- do y'all think that's worth it? The Rallier build that came in second this weekend didn't seem to have any cards that were there specifically for the Tron match, so I'm guessing that its plan is to just hope to avoid Tron and pick up points against the rest of the field by freeing up the sideboard slots. Those are two very different approaches -- I'm leaning towards the latter right now. Game one against Tron is bad enough that you can expect to nearly always lose it, so with Fulminators you're committing four sideboard slots banking on winning G2 AND G3, which doesn't seem so realistic.
1) Technically so does Redcap unless you're lucky enough to draw into it. 2) Like I suggested earlier, swapping 1x Overgrown Tomb for 1x Stomping Ground isn't that much of a stretch, especially considering we also have Birds to back it up. 3) Again, Redcap is also a bust on a CoCo. 4) In that case Redcap is also win-more in that it only wins afters you established infinite life and infinite scry 1s most games. 5) As opposed to a 4-mana Shock-Bear? At least this gives you something to do with creatures in the event that you need direct damage but can't combo. 6) You never want to turn on Devotion for a God in a format with Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares . . . best removal is Nahiri, the Harbinger, that is pretty close to a 1-for-1.
And, while this may be oversimplified, the formula is fairly accurate for finding how many lands (S) you need main to hit the right amount (s) after drawing so many cards (p) for a 60-card deck.
S = p/s*60
B by Turn 1 on play? 1/7*60 ~ 9 (Seer)
WW by Turn 2 on play? 2/8*60 = 15 (Anafenza 2.0)
GGG by Turn 4 on play? 3/10*60 = 18 (Chord)
Now for the comparison between Redcap and Purphoros:
BB (assuming no Red) on Turn 4? 2/10*60 = 12
R on Turn 4? 1/10*60 = 6
I will concede, however, that there are better options (just not Redcap, especially concerning Rallier lists). As for the other cards we should be more focused on, I think it goes without saying that Fatal Push is good and Renegade Rallier with Saffi, Eriksdotter and Viscera Seer is an interesting combo enabler. I'd use it for infinite siphon with Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist (probably Cutthroat) or infinite Bolster triggers via Ana 2.0.
... Actually Rallier may have some use with a Red-splash alongside Stingscourger
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
When I initially played with Renegade Rallier, I think I had only one or two copies and never saw it come up. Decided to try it out a lot more with three and jfc it's so good with the deck. There's so many tricks it's capable of. Rebuild the combo, generate a ton of value with cards like Voice, and even goes infinite. It's so easy to turn on revolt in modern and at worst when you turn on revolt, it ramps you. Total swiss army knife that opens up the deck more.
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Make sure you guys have a playset of evolutionary leap in your collections. It's going to be a really nice option with rallier, particularly since rallier can get it back and leap into more stuff. If rallier turns out good, a 2-3x leap sideboard plan is probably reasonable as an out to many forms of graveyard hate (including cage). rallier can still get fetchlands and leaps around cage even. The horizon canopy/rallier interaction's also a pretty good out to many forms of yard hate.
Re: Tron
I think with a slightly more aggressive slant (voice, rallier) we may be able to squeeze out a decent tron matchup with a mix of tricks (e.g. scullers, selfless spirit, flickerwisp, revoker, eerie interlude, heroic intervention). The voice/rallier/saffi gameplan is much more aggressive in terms of power on the board and gives you the potential to race a little better than before.
I don't think I'd stress out about it too hard unless your meta is really tron heavy though; get the deck rolling and then consider outs. I suspect that 2-3 heroic intervention and some tidehollow scullers might be enough these days.
If you can keep them off Ugin, Intervention beats all the other annoying crap they want to do including karning your lands. Note that at 2 mana this is really a unique and powerful effect that we've never had before--a way to shut off Ulamog cast triggers, Karn activations and oblivion stone.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall