Hello,
Further testing for me and have the following things noticed and called out my attention.
1. we need an answer to a second turn scooze.
- grand abolisher is nice but i have to test it vs phyrexian revoker which i feel is much better as it stops engineered explosives aswell.
2. sadly as much as i want to push the deck for a more aggro build, the deck really works better as combo then aggro then the other way around.
3. if your deck is tuned to a more combo build, without a main deck answer to scooze, its going to be damn hard to win via aggro.
4. i've tested Varolz, the Scar-Striped, and i must admit im still not sure if he has earned a spot in the main or just too fancy. I will still test him more.
- your opponent is gonna pick which poison he has to deal with. but most likely his going to pick that you kill him via aggro, varolz, helps so much in this department.
@Courser of Kruphix
Im not quite sure how on how to react to the idea of it. I've used kruphix in a abzan control route and it was good a solid beat stick. Maybe its a worth a test, i like the idea of the extra land draw but on the other hand what's bothering me is its number.., how good will a singleton kruphix in our deck, reducing its number feels somewhat iffy, but i guess only playtesting will let me know how the singleton kruphix work.
@Lectrys
Fiend hunter / banisher priest would be nice answer to scooze and so is garza's assassin, the only problem for garaza's assasin is the casting cost. bbb is kinda hard atleast for my build as i run 3 anafenza's. but yes i echo that 2 abrupt decay is not enough to stop scooze, the better sentence should be "you need maybe 4 or 5 cards to deal with scooze"
Hello,
I kinda like the idea of playing lingering souls in the sideboard, but the thing i don't like is your opponent is gonna play GY hate against us on g2 or g3, so lingering becomes a 1 for 1 card bec, we might not be able to flashback it again. I don't know if spectral procession would be better as compared to lingering souls. The casting cost isn't that bad maybe, just maybe , i know our mana is inclined to green, but i feel its still possible.
I've been wanting to test Saffi Eriksdotter how is it playing out for you ?
@Kleronomas
Hello
Seeing your all out combo build, its just perfectly fine as long as you can be sure to kill off an early scooze by your opponent. Running 2 grand abolisher is fine, but i feel the copies are lacking. I feel running 6 melira effect might be too much.., on my earlier build i was running 5, but i feel 4 is the right number for it.
Im sure you've encountered enemy scooze on the 2nd turn how do you deal with it with only 1 redcap in your deck and 2 grand abolishers, abolisher seems nice on paper but im not sure if its better than revoker or banshier priest, the only upside for abolisher is against blue decks and slows control decks significantly as they are forced to kill your creatures on there turn or kill abolisher.
OK, so I tested the fast combo build with 5 of each combo piece and 4 CC 3 Chord against Affinity, Burn, and Ad Nauseam (the anti-midrange slots are 1 Eternal Witness, 2 Tidehollow Sculler, and 1 Grand Abolisher). The list now loses most of the time against Affinity instead of around half the time. The loss rate change against Ad Nauseam and Burn is less noticeable, although I kept seeing Witness/Abolisher/Sculler against Affinity and Witness/Abolisher against Burn and wishing they were combo pieces. I'm switching back to 6 of each combo piece--damn the midrange plan. The beatdown plan was already fine against BGx Midrange, UWR, and Twin, anyway.
OK, so I tested the fast combo build with 5 of each combo piece and 4 CC 3 Chord against Affinity, Burn, and Ad Nauseam (the anti-midrange slots are 1 Eternal Witness, 2 Tidehollow Sculler, and 1 Grand Abolisher). The list now loses most of the time against Affinity instead of around half the time. The loss rate change against Ad Nauseam and Burn is less noticeable, although I kept seeing Witness/Abolisher/Sculler against Affinity and Witness/Abolisher against Burn and wishing they were combo pieces. I'm switching back to 6 of each combo piece--damn the midrange plan. The beatdown plan was already fine against BGx Midrange, UWR, and Twin, anyway.
Wow 6 of each. What's the your 6th persist win con ? 4 finks 2 redcap ? isn't 4 seer 2 cartel aristocrat too much ? how do you deal scooze
A true midrange plan only plays 1-2 of each combo piece. Thinking the midrange plan is bad when you have such a high density of combo pieces is not a fair judgment imo.
The midrange plan is not worse than the combo plan as long as you play the right 'hatebears' and fetch them accordingly.
OK, so I tested the fast combo build with 5 of each combo piece and 4 CC 3 Chord against Affinity, Burn, and Ad Nauseam (the anti-midrange slots are 1 Eternal Witness, 2 Tidehollow Sculler, and 1 Grand Abolisher). The list now loses most of the time against Affinity instead of around half the time. The loss rate change against Ad Nauseam and Burn is less noticeable, although I kept seeing Witness/Abolisher/Sculler against Affinity and Witness/Abolisher against Burn and wishing they were combo pieces. I'm switching back to 6 of each combo piece--damn the midrange plan. The beatdown plan was already fine against BGx Midrange, UWR, and Twin, anyway.
Wow 6 of each. What's the your 6th persist win con ? 4 finks 2 redcap ? isn't 4 seer 2 cartel aristocrat too much ? how do you deal scooze
Yes, I run a 4 Finks-2 Redcap split in my current fast build. Redcap's actually pretty decent against Affinity and Burn (and the mirror...and Twin...), while Blood Artist would do jack against Affinity without the combo.
I've actually found that redundant combo pieces are great for chump-blocking with or trading away.
Right now, I have 2 Abrupt Decay and a Garza's Assassin for dealing with Ooze. The current fast creature filtering is 3 Collected Company, 3 Commune with Nature (this is built for speed, Commune with Nature behaves in my list rather like Ancient Stirrings does in RG Tron), 1 Chord (it's THAT bad against midrange, and I find that my hate bears need to hose an entire archetype or deal with a problematic hate card or they're not worth tutoring for), and 1 Fauna Shaman (I'm still trying her out--she's fickle, and she doesn't win as many games as you'd think as quickly as you'd think even if they don't kill her, but 7-8 noncreature ways to get out creatures makes me yearn for a creature that can tutor). Thus, I don't find Garza's Assassin as quickly as 3 Chord versions would, but Ooze decks tend to be slow enough that Assassin does bring home the bacon quickly enough.
Hardcasting Assassin SUCKS, though, so I occasionally dream of Heliod's Pilgrim into Faith's Fetters (better against a wide-open meta, can be used against both midrange and Burn) or Parasitic Implant (good luck finding those 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse fast, BGx Midrange). Pilgrim can also search for Underworld Connections (mmmm, CA), Dead Weight (fast aggro ailing you?), Unflinching Courage (anti-Burn, the best way for Pilgrim to deal with Tron and Breach Trap), or Wheel of Sun and Moon (sideboard hate). Of course, Pilgrim takes up a lot of slots--slots I might not be able to free up.
I dont see why you really want 6 combo pieces each.
Actually Im running 4 finks, 3 enabler, and 3 sacoutlets alongside 1 redcap and im able to constantly combo out. Thats why we are running company and chord I guess. To make the combo able even without maxing them completely out.
My earlier "Melira" Collected Company list actually runs 4 CC, 0 Chords, 0 other creature filtering, 2 Anafenza, 0 Melira, 1 Cartel, 1 Seer, 4 Finks, and a Redcap, and it still combos off consistently enough to keep the extremely favourable match-ups against Little Kid and Soul Sisters (like Melira CC dang well should). Its Affinity match-up is crummy pre-board, though, and its combo match-ups are similarly shaky. Its BGx Midrange, Twin, Burn, and UWR match-ups seem to be about the same. It does have a much better Delver match-up, though (the fast combo version has a crummy time against Delver).
That convinced me that a version that can actually race aggro and combo decks has to be the way to go in relatively fast metas. That's why I need 6 of each combo piece and not 5.
Hardcasting Assassin SUCKS, though, so I occasionally dream of Heliod's Pilgrim into Faith's Fetters (better against a wide-open meta, can be used against both midrange and Burn) or Parasitic Implant (good luck finding those 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse fast, BGx Midrange). Pilgrim can also search for Underworld Connections (mmmm, CA), Dead Weight (fast aggro ailing you?), Unflinching Courage (anti-Burn, the best way for Pilgrim to deal with Tron and Breach Trap), or Wheel of Sun and Moon (sideboard hate). Of course, Pilgrim takes up a lot of slots--slots I might not be able to free up.
[quote from="Muten Yoshi »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/599562-look-ma-no-pod-kitchen-finks-combo?comment=368"]I dont see why you really want 6 combo pieces each.
In heavy combo lists, I recommend Cartel Aristocrat over Bloodthrone Vampire. While you're stalling for the combo, Cartel's ability to block like a king (as long as you're willing to lose other creatures such as mana dorks) matters a lot. Bloodthrone + 1 sac gets squashed by Goyf in comparison.
Cartel Aristocrat + Melira + Anafenza + Persist can also combo off through one spot removal spell, while Bloodthrone + same can't.
After playing in SCG Cleveland this weekend and getting 12th, I think I'm still on the bloodthrone plan. While aristocrat can protect itself better, it does very little other than chump block which is a very bad place for me to be. I'd rather bail on the chump block plan and give more power to the actual combo. Especially if I have to use the one safehold elite, then at least bloodthrone is huge. Plus, with Grim Haruspex, I really want to be able to sac any of the my other creatures at any time should they point a removal spell at it, and aristocrat can't sac itself. I found this to be relevant multiple times this weekend.
The affinity loss was his deck running good with a turn 1 inkmoth vault skirge and a turn 2 inkmoth plating both games. I definitely could use one more thing against them, just not sure what yet.
The jund loss was just variance working against me. Mulled to 5 in both games one and three, took three land hands both times, and drew 4+ lands in the first few turns. I even almost stabilized in game 3. Collected company saw voice/crusader. If it had been finks/crusader and he didn't have bolt I live another turn.
Immediate changes I plan on testing are dropping one more hierarch and moving the third voice main. Then playing with that flex spot in the side, maybe another affinity card?
EDIT: I've added in my life pad tracking for each round. As you can see, I went on tilt slightly after my Jund loss which meant I stopped taking almost any notes after my matches. Much of it is still fresh, so I can answer questions, and I might add to it throughout the day as I feel like it.
Sure, an unplayable combo in a deck full of good combos. 3 Abrupt Decay has been working perfectly for me, I've never lost because an opponent had Scavenging Ooze. It helps that every deck that plays Ooze dies to our midrange plan anyway.
I ran my beatdown midrange version to another FNM 4-0 this past Friday.
Round 1 was Vampires which splashed red. Lots of removal and discard. Finks and Witness kept getting me value.
Next was Black/White tokens (the MM Event Deck). Lost game 1 to fast beatdown. Game 2 I set up a board clear with enchantment removal for his anthem into and Orzhov Pontiff. Then Worship destroyed him in game 3.
Round 3 was a WUBG control with Stubborn Denial, 'Goyf, Siege Rhino, and Tasigur, the Golden Fang. He was fairly tough with good counter magic, discard, and threats. Collected Company and Chord constantly forced him to play defense until the combo finally came into place.
Round 4 was RDW. I won game 1 off of lots of Finks. Game 2 I CC'ed twice with no Finks and died. Game three I won off of Worship. He killed my Anafenza instead of Birds, and I landed turn 3 Worship and then just played creatures.
I had made a couple of small changes since my previous week's list.
I removed the Wall of Roots one-of. In the aggro games you really need Finks, and Wall does relatively little by comparison.
I added instead a Grim Haruspex. He came out a few times and drew me a few cards. I am not sure how much I like him. He was good against board stalls.
I removed the Kataki from my sideboard and replaced him with second Kor Firewalker. I was advised (and agreed) that Kataki as a 1-of without Pod is just not likely enough to come out early. I think this slot should actually be a Auriok Champion - it sounds like she would be great against aggro and twin, both hard matchups. I'd also like to get 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender into the sideboard somehow to fight Anger of the Gods.
I strongly suggest people try playing Worship in their sideboard. Many decks simply cannot beat it once it resolves. Unless they have Infect or Siege Rhino (for the life loss kill), there is often nothing they can do. No one brings in enchantment hate game 2, and they have to get lucky with discard (not Inquisition of Kozilek or bounce it with Cryptic.
Plus, it is fun to explain how it is not damage prevention, and that the card is indeed Modern legal. "How is this card fair?" was my favorite question of the night.
Has anyone considered playing Dark Confidant in this list? Seems to be a good fit in a deck with lots of low cost combo pieces and great ways to gain life. Food for thought.
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Has anyone considered playing Dark Confidant in this list? Seems to be a good fit in a deck with lots of low cost combo pieces and great ways to gain life. Food for thought.
Im not sure if bob is going to be a good addition. Because we almost start at 15 life, revealing collected company gives us 11.., yes the card advantage is good, but don't forget even with 4 finks and other recursion mechanics we can't take too much self inflicting damage especially burn decks is present in the modern meta.
One corner case that you should also be aware of. If you have Melira and Anafenza in play but no sac outlet, you can play redcap and have it kill itself, doing the same trick to make your entire team arbitrarily large.
I wasn't previously aware of this three card combo that Kleronomas so adequately described involving Melira + Anafenza + Redcap. Interesting.
I do have a question regarding this combo, however. Could you stack the triggers differently for a more direct result? This is more of a rules question so if anyone can clarify, that would be helpful.
Let's say you have a Melira and Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit in play and then place a Redcap. You use its ETB to target itself, killing it, persist brings it back, and Melira prevents the -1/-1 counter being placed. A bolster trigger goes on the stack as well thanks to Anafenza but before it resolves, you kill the Redcap again with its own ETB trigger. Rinse and repeat until you pick an arbitrarily monolithic Bolster number like say a Googolplex.
Now here's where my question differs with Kleronomas' strategy: he ends the loop by having the ETB trigger resolve (hitting your opponent or some creature) and then attacks with both Melira and Anafenza for "2/3rds of a Googolplex" damage. This is great! But what I want to ask is if I can choose to resolve Ananfenza's Googolplex Bolster triggers first before Redcap's last ETB trigger goes on the stack. This way, Redcap becomes incredibly gigantic. Once the ETB trigger goes off, you can now kill your opponent thanks to the ETB ability because your Redcap's power will definitely be much larger than their life total. And now you have the bonus of some really large creatures just like in the first strategy.
Is this possible?
Also: On a lighter note, I would like to submit a few more names for this deck. (Keep in mind that I refer to both Anafenza and Melira as the "Combo Sisters.")
a. Sisters and Persisters
b. PerSisters
c. If Sisters Persist consult your doctor.
Now here's where my question differs with Kleronomas' strategy: he ends the loop by having the ETB trigger resolve (hitting your opponent or some creature) and then attacks with both Melira and Anafenza for "2/3rds of a Googolplex" damage. This is great! But what I want to ask is if I can choose to resolve Ananfenza's Googolplex Bolster triggers first before Redcap's last ETB trigger goes on the stack. This way, Redcap becomes incredibly gigantic. Once the ETB trigger goes off, you can now kill your opponent thanks to the ETB ability because your Redcap's power will definitely be much larger than their life total. And now you have the bonus of some really large creatures just like in the first strategy.
Is this possible?
I don't see how that could be possible. You only decide how to stack the triggers when they go off simultaneously. All the old Anafenza triggers would be sitting under the new Redcap trigger each time it enters the battlefield, so the most it could do in direct damage would be 3 if you place it under a last simultaneous Anafenza trigger. Right?
Oh. I apologise then if my understanding of the stack was wrong.
I was under the impression that the following could happen:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield
b. You allow Anafenza's Bolster trigger to resolve first before Redcap's ETB goes on the stack.
c. Redcap's ETB resolves next.
But the wording does make it look like Redcap's ETB will always be on top of Anafenza's triggered ability. Still, a second opinion couldn't hurt.
Turn 1 fetch into a shock land, especially if your opponent has lots of removal and your 2nd turn play is going to be anafenza.
So you fetch a shock playing a mana dork
your opponent kills your mana dork
turn 2 you didn't draw any lands, you play a fetch you crack your fetch you inflicted 4 pts of damage to yourself already and its just turn 2. Now do you get a basic land or another shock land which brings your life total to -6 already. Assuming you don't get a fetch you get a shock land you take -5.
Thats why i say your life start's at 15, bec. of the above scenario which is very very common.
Oh. I apologise then if my understanding of the stack was wrong.
I was under the impression that the following could happen:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield
b. You allow Anafenza's Bolster trigger to resolve first before Redcap's ETB goes on the stack.
c. Redcap's ETB resolves next.
But the wording does make it look like Redcap's ETB will always be on top of Anafenza's triggered ability. Still, a second opinion couldn't help.
If you always resolve Bolster before Redcap zap, no matter how many other creatures you have, they will all eventually have at least 3 toughness. At that point, you're stuck Bolstering Redcap, and in order to prevent Bolstering Redcap before you make it zap itself, you need to stack the Bolster trigger below the zap one. Thus, the last zap trigger always resolves before the remaining infinite Bolster triggers do, and thus, you can't zap them for mega damage with Melira + Anafenza + Redcap alone.
Turn 1 fetch into a shock land, especially if your opponent has lots of removal and your 2nd turn play is going to be anafenza.
So you fetch a shock playing a mana dork
your opponent kills your mana dork
turn 2 you didn't draw any lands, you play a fetch you crack your fetch you inflicted 4 pts of damage to yourself already and its just turn 2. Now do you get a basic land or another shock land which brings your life total to -6 already. Assuming you don't get a fetch you get a shock land you take -5.
Thats why i say your life start's at 15, bec. of the above scenario which is very very common.
If I play Turn 1 mana dork, I often don't fetch a shock on either Turn 1 or Turn 2. Thus, I don't find that scenario to be "very very common". The most common fetch-into-shock-into-shock scenario I have involves Turn 1 Seer, Turn 2 Anafenza. That's not very common for me.
Oh. I apologise then if my understanding of the stack was wrong.
I was under the impression that the following could happen:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield
b. You allow Anafenza's Bolster trigger to resolve first before Redcap's ETB goes on the stack.
c. Redcap's ETB resolves next.
But the wording does make it look like Redcap's ETB will always be on top of Anafenza's triggered ability. Still, a second opinion couldn't help.
If you always resolve Bolster before Redcap zap, no matter how many other creatures you have, they will all eventually have at least 3 toughness. At that point, you're stuck Bolstering Redcap, and in order to prevent Bolstering Redcap before you make it zap itself, you need to stack the Bolster trigger below the zap one. Thus, the last zap trigger always resolves before the remaining infinite Bolster triggers do, and thus, you can't zap them for mega damage with Melira + Anafenza + Redcap alone.
Ah. I understand your explanation and agree. It wasn't, however, the main issue. And I understand this continuing rules conversation is getting more annoying the further I press. But let me see if I can clarify once more. Please bear with me.
The combo works in the following setup with Anafenza and Melira on the field and is already established as sound:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield
b. Anafenza's bolster trigger goes on the stack
c. Redcap's ETB trigger goes on the stack on top of it and resolves first, targeting itself. Bolster remains on the stack still.
d. Redcap returns due to persist and Melira preventing -1/-1 counters. Another bolster trigger on the stack. Still, you place Redcap's ETB on top of it restarting the cycle all over again.
The cycle can be repeated indefinitely, gaining an absurd amount of +1/+1 bolster counters. The combo traditionally ends in the following manner:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield for the last time.
b. A final bolster trigger goes on the stack. And then Redcap's ETB trigger is placed on top of this.
b. Redcap's ETB trigger resolves first, targeting something other than itself this time.
c. All of Anafenza's accumulated bolster triggers finally resolves. And you swing with those creatures without summoning sickness. GG.
My proposed strategy is near identical with the major exception of how the combo finally comes to a close. Instead:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield for the last time.
b. BEFORE(!) Redcap's final ETB trigger goes on the stack, you ALLOW(?) Anafenza's accumulated bolster triggers to resolve first. Or alternatively perhaps, Redcap's final ETB trigger goes on the stack but you ORDER(?) the stack in such a way that the bolster triggers resolve first, before the final Redcap ETB trigger.
c. Redcap's ETB finally goes on the stack after bolster resolves (or is the last to resolve.) Redcap's ETB trigger finally goes off and targets your opponent for lethal thanks to all the near-infinite bolster counters divided upon each creature you control.
It's in that small space that makes this such a potent question. The reason I'm asking and pressing this issue is because of how often I see the stack ordered by active players playing similar stack-related triggered combos (Jeskai Ascendancy Combo being a recent one on the top of my head.)
My apologies again. It may be that I cannot allow Anafenza's bolster triggers to resolve first without having Redcap's last ETB trigger on the stack. Perhaps having a formal conversation with a judge would settle this (at least for me) once and for all.
Further testing for me and have the following things noticed and called out my attention.
1. we need an answer to a second turn scooze.
- grand abolisher is nice but i have to test it vs phyrexian revoker which i feel is much better as it stops engineered explosives aswell.
2. sadly as much as i want to push the deck for a more aggro build, the deck really works better as combo then aggro then the other way around.
3. if your deck is tuned to a more combo build, without a main deck answer to scooze, its going to be damn hard to win via aggro.
4. i've tested Varolz, the Scar-Striped, and i must admit im still not sure if he has earned a spot in the main or just too fancy. I will still test him more.
- your opponent is gonna pick which poison he has to deal with. but most likely his going to pick that you kill him via aggro, varolz, helps so much in this department.
@Courser of Kruphix
Im not quite sure how on how to react to the idea of it. I've used kruphix in a abzan control route and it was good a solid beat stick. Maybe its a worth a test, i like the idea of the extra land draw but on the other hand what's bothering me is its number.., how good will a singleton kruphix in our deck, reducing its number feels somewhat iffy, but i guess only playtesting will let me know how the singleton kruphix work.
Fiend hunter / banisher priest would be nice answer to scooze and so is garza's assassin, the only problem for garaza's assasin is the casting cost. bbb is kinda hard atleast for my build as i run 3 anafenza's. but yes i echo that 2 abrupt decay is not enough to stop scooze, the better sentence should be "you need maybe 4 or 5 cards to deal with scooze"
Hello,
I kinda like the idea of playing lingering souls in the sideboard, but the thing i don't like is your opponent is gonna play GY hate against us on g2 or g3, so lingering becomes a 1 for 1 card bec, we might not be able to flashback it again. I don't know if spectral procession would be better as compared to lingering souls. The casting cost isn't that bad maybe, just maybe , i know our mana is inclined to green, but i feel its still possible.
I've been wanting to test Saffi Eriksdotter how is it playing out for you ?
Hello
Seeing your all out combo build, its just perfectly fine as long as you can be sure to kill off an early scooze by your opponent. Running 2 grand abolisher is fine, but i feel the copies are lacking. I feel running 6 melira effect might be too much.., on my earlier build i was running 5, but i feel 4 is the right number for it.
Im sure you've encountered enemy scooze on the 2nd turn how do you deal with it with only 1 redcap in your deck and 2 grand abolishers, abolisher seems nice on paper but im not sure if its better than revoker or banshier priest, the only upside for abolisher is against blue decks and slows control decks significantly as they are forced to kill your creatures on there turn or kill abolisher.
Or killing your sac engine
Wow 6 of each. What's the your 6th persist win con ? 4 finks 2 redcap ? isn't 4 seer 2 cartel aristocrat too much ? how do you deal scooze
The midrange plan is not worse than the combo plan as long as you play the right 'hatebears' and fetch them accordingly.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Yes, I run a 4 Finks-2 Redcap split in my current fast build. Redcap's actually pretty decent against Affinity and Burn (and the mirror...and Twin...), while Blood Artist would do jack against Affinity without the combo.
I've actually found that redundant combo pieces are great for chump-blocking with or trading away.
Right now, I have 2 Abrupt Decay and a Garza's Assassin for dealing with Ooze. The current fast creature filtering is 3 Collected Company, 3 Commune with Nature (this is built for speed, Commune with Nature behaves in my list rather like Ancient Stirrings does in RG Tron), 1 Chord (it's THAT bad against midrange, and I find that my hate bears need to hose an entire archetype or deal with a problematic hate card or they're not worth tutoring for), and 1 Fauna Shaman (I'm still trying her out--she's fickle, and she doesn't win as many games as you'd think as quickly as you'd think even if they don't kill her, but 7-8 noncreature ways to get out creatures makes me yearn for a creature that can tutor). Thus, I don't find Garza's Assassin as quickly as 3 Chord versions would, but Ooze decks tend to be slow enough that Assassin does bring home the bacon quickly enough.
Hardcasting Assassin SUCKS, though, so I occasionally dream of Heliod's Pilgrim into Faith's Fetters (better against a wide-open meta, can be used against both midrange and Burn) or Parasitic Implant (good luck finding those 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse fast, BGx Midrange). Pilgrim can also search for Underworld Connections (mmmm, CA), Dead Weight (fast aggro ailing you?), Unflinching Courage (anti-Burn, the best way for Pilgrim to deal with Tron and Breach Trap), or Wheel of Sun and Moon (sideboard hate). Of course, Pilgrim takes up a lot of slots--slots I might not be able to free up.
My earlier "Melira" Collected Company list actually runs 4 CC, 0 Chords, 0 other creature filtering, 2 Anafenza, 0 Melira, 1 Cartel, 1 Seer, 4 Finks, and a Redcap, and it still combos off consistently enough to keep the extremely favourable match-ups against Little Kid and Soul Sisters (like Melira CC dang well should). Its Affinity match-up is crummy pre-board, though, and its combo match-ups are similarly shaky. Its BGx Midrange, Twin, Burn, and UWR match-ups seem to be about the same. It does have a much better Delver match-up, though (the fast combo version has a crummy time against Delver).
That convinced me that a version that can actually race aggro and combo decks has to be the way to go in relatively fast metas. That's why I need 6 of each combo piece and not 5.
Heliod's Pilgrim also enables the Presence of Gond + Midnight Guard route.
After playing in SCG Cleveland this weekend and getting 12th, I think I'm still on the bloodthrone plan. While aristocrat can protect itself better, it does very little other than chump block which is a very bad place for me to be. I'd rather bail on the chump block plan and give more power to the actual combo. Especially if I have to use the one safehold elite, then at least bloodthrone is huge. Plus, with Grim Haruspex, I really want to be able to sac any of the my other creatures at any time should they point a removal spell at it, and aristocrat can't sac itself. I found this to be relevant multiple times this weekend.
Matchups:
UR Twin: 2-0
Affinity 0-2
RW Burn 2-1
Jund 1-2
Junk 2-0
UW Emeria 2-0
RW burn 2-0
Bogles 2-0
The affinity loss was his deck running good with a turn 1 inkmoth vault skirge and a turn 2 inkmoth plating both games. I definitely could use one more thing against them, just not sure what yet.
The jund loss was just variance working against me. Mulled to 5 in both games one and three, took three land hands both times, and drew 4+ lands in the first few turns. I even almost stabilized in game 3. Collected company saw voice/crusader. If it had been finks/crusader and he didn't have bolt I live another turn.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83933
Immediate changes I plan on testing are dropping one more hierarch and moving the third voice main. Then playing with that flex spot in the side, maybe another affinity card?
EDIT: I've added in my life pad tracking for each round. As you can see, I went on tilt slightly after my Jund loss which meant I stopped taking almost any notes after my matches. Much of it is still fresh, so I can answer questions, and I might add to it throughout the day as I feel like it.
http://imgur.com/a/Qj6fr
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Round 1 was Vampires which splashed red. Lots of removal and discard. Finks and Witness kept getting me value.
Next was Black/White tokens (the MM Event Deck). Lost game 1 to fast beatdown. Game 2 I set up a board clear with enchantment removal for his anthem into and Orzhov Pontiff. Then Worship destroyed him in game 3.
Round 3 was a WUBG control with Stubborn Denial, 'Goyf, Siege Rhino, and Tasigur, the Golden Fang. He was fairly tough with good counter magic, discard, and threats. Collected Company and Chord constantly forced him to play defense until the combo finally came into place.
Round 4 was RDW. I won game 1 off of lots of Finks. Game 2 I CC'ed twice with no Finks and died. Game three I won off of Worship. He killed my Anafenza instead of Birds, and I landed turn 3 Worship and then just played creatures.
I had made a couple of small changes since my previous week's list.
Decklist
3x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Viscera Seer
1x Voice of Resurgence
3x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Spellskite
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Eternal Witness
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Grim Haruspex
2x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
3x Path to Exile
Land (23)
3x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
1x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
4 Worship
3 Creeping Corrosion
2 Spellskite
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
I removed the Wall of Roots one-of. In the aggro games you really need Finks, and Wall does relatively little by comparison.
I added instead a Grim Haruspex. He came out a few times and drew me a few cards. I am not sure how much I like him. He was good against board stalls.
I removed the Kataki from my sideboard and replaced him with second Kor Firewalker. I was advised (and agreed) that Kataki as a 1-of without Pod is just not likely enough to come out early. I think this slot should actually be a Auriok Champion - it sounds like she would be great against aggro and twin, both hard matchups. I'd also like to get 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender into the sideboard somehow to fight Anger of the Gods.
I strongly suggest people try playing Worship in their sideboard. Many decks simply cannot beat it once it resolves. Unless they have Infect or Siege Rhino (for the life loss kill), there is often nothing they can do. No one brings in enchantment hate game 2, and they have to get lucky with discard (not Inquisition of Kozilek or bounce it with Cryptic.
Plus, it is fun to explain how it is not damage prevention, and that the card is indeed Modern legal. "How is this card fair?" was my favorite question of the night.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Im not sure if bob is going to be a good addition. Because we almost start at 15 life, revealing collected company gives us 11.., yes the card advantage is good, but don't forget even with 4 finks and other recursion mechanics we can't take too much self inflicting damage especially burn decks is present in the modern meta.
I wasn't previously aware of this three card combo that Kleronomas so adequately described involving Melira + Anafenza + Redcap. Interesting.
I do have a question regarding this combo, however. Could you stack the triggers differently for a more direct result? This is more of a rules question so if anyone can clarify, that would be helpful.
Let's say you have a Melira and Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit in play and then place a Redcap. You use its ETB to target itself, killing it, persist brings it back, and Melira prevents the -1/-1 counter being placed. A bolster trigger goes on the stack as well thanks to Anafenza but before it resolves, you kill the Redcap again with its own ETB trigger. Rinse and repeat until you pick an arbitrarily monolithic Bolster number like say a Googolplex.
Now here's where my question differs with Kleronomas' strategy: he ends the loop by having the ETB trigger resolve (hitting your opponent or some creature) and then attacks with both Melira and Anafenza for "2/3rds of a Googolplex" damage. This is great! But what I want to ask is if I can choose to resolve Ananfenza's Googolplex Bolster triggers first before Redcap's last ETB trigger goes on the stack. This way, Redcap becomes incredibly gigantic. Once the ETB trigger goes off, you can now kill your opponent thanks to the ETB ability because your Redcap's power will definitely be much larger than their life total. And now you have the bonus of some really large creatures just like in the first strategy.
Is this possible?
Also: On a lighter note, I would like to submit a few more names for this deck. (Keep in mind that I refer to both Anafenza and Melira as the "Combo Sisters.")
a. Sisters and Persisters
b. PerSisters
c. If Sisters Persist consult your doctor.
Standard: Abzan Aggro WBG
Modern: Junk CompanyWBG
Legacy: Counter-SliversGWU
There was a house on Gavony
Whose walls held back the war
With corridors and lodging free
And always room for more
Two sisters manned the house all day
In aiding the forlorn
The youngest kept the sick at bay
The eldest, soldier sworn
Then came a day of reckoning
When all defences fell
A horde of Goblins, Sprites, and things
Approached to give them hell
The final hour with no assist
A time of misery
'Persist!' the eldest did insist
'And wait for company!'
I don't see how that could be possible. You only decide how to stack the triggers when they go off simultaneously. All the old Anafenza triggers would be sitting under the new Redcap trigger each time it enters the battlefield, so the most it could do in direct damage would be 3 if you place it under a last simultaneous Anafenza trigger. Right?
I was under the impression that the following could happen:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield
b. You allow Anafenza's Bolster trigger to resolve first before Redcap's ETB goes on the stack.
c. Redcap's ETB resolves next.
But the wording does make it look like Redcap's ETB will always be on top of Anafenza's triggered ability. Still, a second opinion couldn't hurt.
Standard: Abzan Aggro WBG
Modern: Junk CompanyWBG
Legacy: Counter-SliversGWU
There was a house on Gavony
Whose walls held back the war
With corridors and lodging free
And always room for more
Two sisters manned the house all day
In aiding the forlorn
The youngest kept the sick at bay
The eldest, soldier sworn
Then came a day of reckoning
When all defences fell
A horde of Goblins, Sprites, and things
Approached to give them hell
The final hour with no assist
A time of misery
'Persist!' the eldest did insist
'And wait for company!'
So you fetch a shock playing a mana dork
your opponent kills your mana dork
turn 2 you didn't draw any lands, you play a fetch you crack your fetch you inflicted 4 pts of damage to yourself already and its just turn 2. Now do you get a basic land or another shock land which brings your life total to -6 already. Assuming you don't get a fetch you get a shock land you take -5.
Thats why i say your life start's at 15, bec. of the above scenario which is very very common.
If you always resolve Bolster before Redcap zap, no matter how many other creatures you have, they will all eventually have at least 3 toughness. At that point, you're stuck Bolstering Redcap, and in order to prevent Bolstering Redcap before you make it zap itself, you need to stack the Bolster trigger below the zap one. Thus, the last zap trigger always resolves before the remaining infinite Bolster triggers do, and thus, you can't zap them for mega damage with Melira + Anafenza + Redcap alone.
If I play Turn 1 mana dork, I often don't fetch a shock on either Turn 1 or Turn 2. Thus, I don't find that scenario to be "very very common". The most common fetch-into-shock-into-shock scenario I have involves Turn 1 Seer, Turn 2 Anafenza. That's not very common for me.
Ah. I understand your explanation and agree. It wasn't, however, the main issue. And I understand this continuing rules conversation is getting more annoying the further I press. But let me see if I can clarify once more. Please bear with me.
The combo works in the following setup with Anafenza and Melira on the field and is already established as sound:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield
b. Anafenza's bolster trigger goes on the stack
c. Redcap's ETB trigger goes on the stack on top of it and resolves first, targeting itself. Bolster remains on the stack still.
d. Redcap returns due to persist and Melira preventing -1/-1 counters. Another bolster trigger on the stack. Still, you place Redcap's ETB on top of it restarting the cycle all over again.
The cycle can be repeated indefinitely, gaining an absurd amount of +1/+1 bolster counters. The combo traditionally ends in the following manner:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield for the last time.
b. A final bolster trigger goes on the stack. And then Redcap's ETB trigger is placed on top of this.
b. Redcap's ETB trigger resolves first, targeting something other than itself this time.
c. All of Anafenza's accumulated bolster triggers finally resolves. And you swing with those creatures without summoning sickness. GG.
My proposed strategy is near identical with the major exception of how the combo finally comes to a close. Instead:
a. Redcap enters the battlefield for the last time.
b. BEFORE(!) Redcap's final ETB trigger goes on the stack, you ALLOW(?) Anafenza's accumulated bolster triggers to resolve first. Or alternatively perhaps, Redcap's final ETB trigger goes on the stack but you ORDER(?) the stack in such a way that the bolster triggers resolve first, before the final Redcap ETB trigger.
c. Redcap's ETB finally goes on the stack after bolster resolves (or is the last to resolve.) Redcap's ETB trigger finally goes off and targets your opponent for lethal thanks to all the near-infinite bolster counters divided upon each creature you control.
It's in that small space that makes this such a potent question. The reason I'm asking and pressing this issue is because of how often I see the stack ordered by active players playing similar stack-related triggered combos (Jeskai Ascendancy Combo being a recent one on the top of my head.)
My apologies again. It may be that I cannot allow Anafenza's bolster triggers to resolve first without having Redcap's last ETB trigger on the stack. Perhaps having a formal conversation with a judge would settle this (at least for me) once and for all.
Standard: Abzan Aggro WBG
Modern: Junk CompanyWBG
Legacy: Counter-SliversGWU
There was a house on Gavony
Whose walls held back the war
With corridors and lodging free
And always room for more
Two sisters manned the house all day
In aiding the forlorn
The youngest kept the sick at bay
The eldest, soldier sworn
Then came a day of reckoning
When all defences fell
A horde of Goblins, Sprites, and things
Approached to give them hell
The final hour with no assist
A time of misery
'Persist!' the eldest did insist
'And wait for company!'