Has anyone considered Mox Amber in Grishoalbrand? I looked back in this thread and it doesn’t appear that anyone has brought it up as potential synergy with the deck.
Clearly it doesn’t do anything until we’re already starting to combo off and we have either Gris or Borbo in play, but once we start drawing cards with Gris every Mox Amber we hit is an extra B, R, or G potentially. I’m not sure what it would replace in the 60/75 but free mana, conditional or not, should always be looked at closely.
The argument is there that SSG is just better which it very well could be but I still think this card needs to be tested in this deck to see if it adds anything to our gameplan. Any thoughts on numbers? What it would replace?
I'm planning on maybe playing it as a one-of. As you said, SSG has infinitely more utility (grey ogre, Breaching ahead of schedule, mana during combo turn). I don't feel that start-up mana during combo turns is a constraint often enough for me so I'm not optimistic.
Isn't it better than manamorphos? The thing with manamorphose is that it allows us to get back mana for vengeance kills and very very rarely the 3-4 color for engineered explosives. There are games where I didnt draw a second shoal and was 1 mana away from breaching and I think this helps a lot.
Has anyone considered Mox Amber in Grishoalbrand? I looked back in this thread and it doesn’t appear that anyone has brought it up as potential synergy with the deck.
Clearly it doesn’t do anything until we’re already starting to combo off and we have either Gris or Borbo in play, but once we start drawing cards with Gris every Mox Amber we hit is an extra B, R, or G potentially. I’m not sure what it would replace in the 60/75 but free mana, conditional or not, should always be looked at closely.
The argument is there that SSG is just better which it very well could be but I still think this card needs to be tested in this deck to see if it adds anything to our gameplan. Any thoughts on numbers? What it would replace?
I'm planning on maybe playing it as a one-of. As you said, SSG has infinitely more utility (grey ogre, Breaching ahead of schedule, mana during combo turn). I don't feel that start-up mana during combo turns is a constraint often enough for me so I'm not optimistic.
Isn't it better than manamorphos? The thing with manamorphose is that it allows us to get back mana for vengeance kills and very very rarely the 3-4 color for engineered explosives. There are games where I didnt draw a second shoal and was 1 mana away from breaching and I think this helps a lot.
I think the times Manamorphose helps you by letting you play a 59 card deck if needed, letting you pitch it to Shoal to splice a turn early, cheat on mana by letting you filter into black for a tight goryo's vengeance turn and letting you very rarely pay for Pact of Negation/add colors to EE far outweighs the times Mox Amber will help you.
For all intents and purposes, the game is most often won when Griselbrand comes into play. Most of the times where you can't immediately combo is when you have the opportunity to slow down and sculpt the perfect hand to win on the next turn. When you can't life is usually the constraint, not mana. Amber literally does nothing outside of the rare combo turn where it's needed so I'm not too hot on it in theory
The original primer mentions a version with necrotic Ooze.
Has anyone done testing with Necrotic Ooze as a way to do what Goryo’s does but when you don’t have it available? Obviously hasn’t been in favor for a while but not positive why.
Here is a small report from my tournament of Sunday the Geneva Modern 8 with 117 peoples/
Round 1 / Hollow One :
I loose the toss. I play against somebody who doesn't play a lot and borrowed the deck to one of his friend. 1st game I mull 6, with quite a slow hand but keep it because I know what he plays, and I have griselbrand which can go to the graveyard with burning inquiry.
I win the first game because i can shoal and wurm to buy enough turns to goryo griselbrand.
I loose the second game, one turn too short to kill Him. I win the third game with a turn 3 kill, he mulligans and doesn't fin anything relevant. 1/0
Round 2 Blue White Control
I win the toss.
Game 1 I have an excellent hand with faithless grisel and 2 goryo, land, shoal and manamorphose. I try to goryo while he taps out turn 2 and he surprises me with the blue shoal discarding Snap! Nevermind, I can splice and recast it for the win.
Game 2 : I turn to kill him and he has no answer. 2/0
Round 3 : Blue / red Pyromancer :
I win the toss.
Game 1 I keep a slow hand with a breach plan, and shoal, simian. I see 2 things in the ice. I can splice Through the breach end of is turn and recast it on my turn for the win.
Game 2 : I turn 2 kill him, he punted because he didnt' play is bleu trap when I started to combo off and didn't have my pact of negation in hand yet. 3/0
Round 4 : Mono Blue Tron:
I win the toss.
Game one I get to double goryo's vengeance and kill him quickly. Game 2 he lands a Thought Knot Seer and take my goryo, I never manager to find something else and die in a few turns. Game 3 : I mull 6 , don't remember properly but I think I kept a slow hand, and he manages to kill me with mindslaver and the academy ruins to take all my turns! 3/1
Round 5 : Merfolk :
I win the toss. Game one turn 4 kill because I have to play around his cursecatcher and to splice in case of coutnerspells. Game to I turn 4 kill him because he choosed to attack with his mutavault and one counterspells backup instead of passing with 4mana and 2 counterspells.. 4/1
Round 6 : Ponza
I win the toss againt! This is the kind of matchup I am happy to play against. Game one he manage to cut my black sources and land blood moon, I don't have fetches to play around land destructions. I topdeck a swamp for the win.
Game 2, he lands a scavenging ooze quickly and manage to win. Game 3 turn to kill on the play with a perfect hand! 5/1
At the end of round 6 I am 6th and have to play the last round for the top8 against.... Scapeshift! Which is a good matchup.
Round 7 : Scapeshift
I loose finally my first toss! I start feeling tired, and had a night out planned with my friend and I was late, I wouldnt except such a good result on the tournament today!
First game : I my turn 4 I Think he has 3 cards left in hands 6 lands on the battlefield. I have 2 options : Breaching a Wurm or a Griselbrand. I am affraid he is going to untap and kill me with scapeshift if i dont kill him, he is at 17 so I choose to go for Breach and Grisel, which is a big mistake because I punt really hard by going down to 2 life and he kills me with a bol,t.. How stupid I am!
Game 2 : I kept a hand with a turn 2 blood moon some lands, faithless to draw cards and wurm I think. I decide to keep it because of the quick bloodmoon. He lands Gravedigger's cage, I land bloodmoon and keep on ramping with nothing but one sakura on the battlefield. He finally manages to pact for a reclamation sage and scapeshift the same turn and knock me down 5/2
I played really poorly and should have won the first game , I am very disapointed to not make top 8 but still happy with my good run!
I finish 13th and still in the prices which is great.
Love this deck, soon I will have it fully foiled!
I hope you will like the report, sorry for the mistakes, my english is not perfect.
thanks for the report! Bummer about the last match. Should generally be a really good match up:/
Lol I just posted a couple ago about necrotic ooze in Grishoalbrand and saw that 5-0 today! Quite an interesting one to say the least. I do think it’s a sensible way to protect against not having a Goryos as you can combo off anyway. The bloodghasts and tasigurs for evolving is very entertaining too..
Planning on heading out to Cincinnati to do the classic on Sunday. Expecting tons of jund, burn, and humans. Any tips on putting together a sideboard?
I know leyline would probably be ideal but I don't think I can get them by then.
Planning on heading out to Cincinnati to do the classic on Sunday. Expecting tons of jund, burn, and humans. Any tips on putting together a sideboard?
I know leyline would probably be ideal but I don't think I can get them by then.
I'd just revert back to the Blood Moon/Chalice configuration then. Maybe throw in a grave titan in there and up the hard sweeper count.
I'll be playing in the Open this weekend, and I will likely be on this deck. Currently playing the 60 that top'd at GP Toronto. My question is why is nobody playing Blood Moon in the main? This seems like a getcha kinda deck, and I'm of the opinion that Blood Moon is a pretty getcha card. It seems like it would be easy enough to cut the one of Brutality and one of Lightning Axe and replace them with 2 maindeck moons and steal even more games with a turn 1/2 Blood Moon...
I'll be playing in the Open this weekend, and I will likely be on this deck. Currently playing the 60 that top'd at GP Toronto. My question is why is nobody playing Blood Moon in the main? This seems like a getcha kinda deck, and I'm of the opinion that Blood Moon is a pretty getcha card. It seems like it would be easy enough to cut the one of Brutality and one of Lightning Axe and replace them with 2 maindeck moons and steal even more games with a turn 1/2 Blood Moon...
Because your game 1 plan A is superior to almost anyone else's plan A, so you want to be as streamlined as possible. Postboard, think of Blood Moon as another win condition that attacks on a different axis than your plan A (graveyard hate will be aplenty postboard)
Does adding blood moon really change the game 1 plan that much?
You have very few flex slot in the deck. I personally feel there are only 2 flex slot and those generally are anti creatures cards since the most prevalent game 1 nuisance is thalia, scavenging ooze, and meddling mage.
I don't necessarily HATE the idea. Graveyard hate is a big roadblock for us and pre-sideboard I just prefer to keep everything as tight as I can. Even the few flex spots that are "interaction" that I play are enablers (i.e. Lightning Axe, Brutality).
That said, I can definitely see myself playing a 1 of or 2 of Blood Moon main for the lols because of the surprise factor in game 1 (kind of the same reason as to why Mardu Pyromancer and Blue Moon Breach/Kiki/control play Blood Moon. It's just another axis of attack)
Without expecting tons of storm and DS is chalice really a good choice? Against what other decks do you bring this in?
The post above captured a lot. some common ones:
Shadows
Storm
UWx Control (potentially)
Marduy Pyromancer
Ad Nauseam (potentially. Blood Moon could be better)
Lantern
Infect
Mono Blue Living End
B B B B B BOGLES
8rack
you're right that the meta has moved away from decks that depend on 1 cmc or 0 cmc. That's why I've kind of moved on for now.
Matchup lottery did definitely not favor me this time around.
Round 1 - 4-color Death's Shadow
My teammate. I know what he's playing but don't know his exact current version.
G1: He plays 3 discard spells but no pressure. I loot and hug. Eventually I draw a vengeance and go off.
-Brutality, -Axe, -Wurm, -Breach, -Ritual, -Looting, +Chalices, +Moons, +EE
G2: I realize my mistake of siding in Chalices on the draw when he plays DS and spellbomb on turn two. This time he had no discard but quick pressure (with spellbomb as disruption).
G3: Same sideplan. Mull to a questionable 6 of temples and card draw. Decide to keep as it's kind of ok vs. discard. He gets an early Tarmogoyf and some discard. I'm on the backfoot the whole game, and manage to land a Chalice, which he Decays. Then I get down a Moon, but the Goyf gets me before I find the combo. 1-2 (0-1)
This truly feels like a bad matchup. A quick Moon would be lights out, but it's hard to stick against a discard deck.
Round 2 - 5-color homebrew
G1: He plays Inquisition, Lingering Souls, Bolt and Helix, so I'm thinking some sort of Mardu midrange. He always has a white source open, so I'm afraid to Breach a Wurm in fear of a Path. He suprises me by fetching a green shockland and drops a Bloodbraid Elf! Cascade hits Kolaghan's Command and I'm forced to form a new plan. He attacks, I shoal and survive with one open mana and SSG, Vengeance, Breach in hand and a Borb in the yard. I feel my only way to win is to Vengeance in his end step and either draw a creature or hit enough lands with Borb. I draw a Wurm and Breach for the win. His lone card was all the time a Forest, not a Path.
-Axe, -Brutality, +EE, +Spree
G2: He plays a turn 2 RIP, I counter with an EE. I sculpt a nice hand against no pressure, and finally Breach a Wurm with a Vengeance backup-plan. He Terminates the Wurm but the tokens go all the way.
After the games he shows me how he sided in 3 RIPs and 2 Surgicals. 2-0 (1-1)
Round 3 - Lantern
At this point I've seen most decks in the event. There's some Trons, Goblin deck, UR Breach, at least one more brew and a Zombie Hunt in addition to the 4-c DS and the rainbowbrew I've played. I was hoping to face a nice heavy Tron or a slow midrange deck. My prayers went unanswered.
G1: I look at my hand and a t2 Griseldaddy stares back at me. I play my land and loot away the demon. He lauhgs, plays a Spire of Industry, Bauble and passes. Lantern. Our enemy #1. Well, what's he gonna do against a turn 2 Necropotence-on-a-stick. Game one: a homerun. I count my blessings and move to sideboarding.
-Axe, -Brutality, -Wurm, -Breach, +Sprees, +EE
G2: He plays a turn one Cage and a turn two Lantern + millrock. I loot a Griselbrand and play an EE for one. T4 he draws a Pithing Needle and goes deep into the tank. I have 4 cards in hand. He has an Whir on top. He decides to hold his Needle and plays a second Bridge. I have a chance to go for it, and I take it: Endstep break EE and mainstep Vengeance. I drew 14, shoaled a Borb and drew 7 more (at 7 life). Then I ran out of shoals. Gasp. I have the option to either exile a mana-ape to loot, or exile two apes to spree and attack, or play red land and/or manamorphose before any of these. I decide not to morphose and instead burn the bridges and attack to draw 7. Jackpot. Land>SSG>Loot away a Borb>Manamorphose for B>Vengeance Borbie>throw enough lands in his face to slay the metallic dragon! Wohoo! 2-0 (2-1)
Round 4 - Storm
We know what each other is playing, and agree that the dice roll in crucial in this matchup. I end up losing the roll.
G1: I have almost a perfect hand, only missing one land to t2 combo. I draw, loot and Whisper for a few turns. Nope. When I finally hit the second land, he Remands me twice and goes off.
-Hugs, -Wurm, -Breach, +Chalices, +Pacts. I'm quite sure he sides the Goblin-plan out, and some permission in. I consider bringing in Nahiri's for more removal/enabler.
G2: I start with a good hand of Pact, Brutality, Vengeance and a Looting. He plays a turn 2 Electromancer. I Brutality it and see a hand of Negate, Remand and a Swan Song which I bin. He plays a land, performs a Sleight a Hand and passes. I reanimate the big guy, he remands and I pact. I proceed to an easy win.
-Chalice +EE
G3: I mull to a questionable 6 with chalice and some card draw. He also mulled to 6 and scried to bottom. I spent my first turns sculpting, and then play the Chalice. He plays a Baral. I draw a Brutality, and consider playing it, but opt to play a looting and a scryland instead. The reasoning was that he had mana open for a Remand, and I needed to advance my board if I ever dreamed of winning. Well, got punished. He went for it and got there. 1-2 (2-2)
Maybe should have sided out the last Chalice as well, and bring in Nahiri's as an additional way of removal?
2-2. Well the games went 6-4 against a very hostile field, and I won against the #1 enemy, so I'm definitely content with the result.
Notes on the deck:
-The Hugs are (finally) starting to grow on me. I specifically like them against discard, as they represent a whole 3 new cards for them to worry about.
-I like the lone EE on the side. It's very easy to bring in blind.
-I'm testing a Nahiri's Wrath on the side for midrange matchups. Serves as an extra enabler and a way to buy time against Goyfs and such.
-It would be nice to hear how good Grave Titan has been. I don't own any yet and am considering buying some.
/J
Grave titan has been ok for me. I might remove it. I generally bring it in against discard heavy matchup and matchup where I bring in a lot of my sideboard sweeper. There was a few games it rotted in my hand(19 lands). The only game I remember winning with it completely was against a jund player who looked like he sided out majority of his unconditional removal and died when i cast it turn 4.
I still am ambient on hugs. i know they are needed but I would love to be able to play draw into discard like chart a course. Too many games where I cast it discarding big G then immediately draw through the breach.
I will be pretty much swapping out bant knightfall for one of these goryo's decks. Of the two, which one is better moving forward; the esper goryo version, or the grishoalbrand version. As I am only able to invest into one of these so the initial decision is rather important for me.
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Isn't it better than manamorphos? The thing with manamorphose is that it allows us to get back mana for vengeance kills and very very rarely the 3-4 color for engineered explosives. There are games where I didnt draw a second shoal and was 1 mana away from breaching and I think this helps a lot.
I think the times Manamorphose helps you by letting you play a 59 card deck if needed, letting you pitch it to Shoal to splice a turn early, cheat on mana by letting you filter into black for a tight goryo's vengeance turn and letting you very rarely pay for Pact of Negation/add colors to EE far outweighs the times Mox Amber will help you.
For all intents and purposes, the game is most often won when Griselbrand comes into play. Most of the times where you can't immediately combo is when you have the opportunity to slow down and sculpt the perfect hand to win on the next turn. When you can't life is usually the constraint, not mana. Amber literally does nothing outside of the rare combo turn where it's needed so I'm not too hot on it in theory
Has anyone done testing with Necrotic Ooze as a way to do what Goryo’s does but when you don’t have it available? Obviously hasn’t been in favor for a while but not positive why.
I have no idea what this is but I feel obligated to try this out. No Grisly Savage seems interesting though.
I know leyline would probably be ideal but I don't think I can get them by then.
generally we're not lacking for speed, but consistency of the actual combo. I doubt it'll be good for us.
I'd just revert back to the Blood Moon/Chalice configuration then. Maybe throw in a grave titan in there and up the hard sweeper count.
Because your game 1 plan A is superior to almost anyone else's plan A, so you want to be as streamlined as possible. Postboard, think of Blood Moon as another win condition that attacks on a different axis than your plan A (graveyard hate will be aplenty postboard)
Currently the meta moved away from landern+grixis deathshadow so I removed mine from the sideboard for white leyline
You have very few flex slot in the deck. I personally feel there are only 2 flex slot and those generally are anti creatures cards since the most prevalent game 1 nuisance is thalia, scavenging ooze, and meddling mage.
That said, I can definitely see myself playing a 1 of or 2 of Blood Moon main for the lols because of the surprise factor in game 1 (kind of the same reason as to why Mardu Pyromancer and Blue Moon Breach/Kiki/control play Blood Moon. It's just another axis of attack)
The post above captured a lot. some common ones:
Shadows
Storm
UWx Control (potentially)
Marduy Pyromancer
Ad Nauseam (potentially. Blood Moon could be better)
Lantern
Infect
Mono Blue Living End
B B B B B BOGLES
8rack
you're right that the meta has moved away from decks that depend on 1 cmc or 0 cmc. That's why I've kind of moved on for now.
Grave titan has been ok for me. I might remove it. I generally bring it in against discard heavy matchup and matchup where I bring in a lot of my sideboard sweeper. There was a few games it rotted in my hand(19 lands). The only game I remember winning with it completely was against a jund player who looked like he sided out majority of his unconditional removal and died when i cast it turn 4.
I still am ambient on hugs. i know they are needed but I would love to be able to play draw into discard like chart a course. Too many games where I cast it discarding big G then immediately draw through the breach.