I played Grishoalbrand this weekend at a 250-person tournament. Overall it went pretty well and I ended up with 4-3 before I dropped in the last round.
I beat a variety of decks, but my 3 losses came from 3 Vizier combo decks. Is it bad luck, or are we just very unfavored vs Vizier Combo? Any particular tricks or sideboard cards we should keep in mind to deal with them, or is it just a matter of mulliganing hard to be faster than them?
Vizier can be difficult, especially if the have scooze and/or rip. They can be similarly fast and have multiple hate pieces (snooze, rip, eidolon, etc) and chord to find them. They also have path for a breached Wurm.
That being said, it is not as bad a some matchups. I love lightning axe in the matchup as well as the sweepers. Most of their hate, as well as their wincons, are creature based. EE is also good on 2 if you’re running it.
Yeah, I think you side in Anger of the Gods and Collective Brutality if you have them. You need to kill the Devoted Druid and the Scavenging Ooze right away. I feel like the matchup is fairly 50/50, but a friend who does better than myself with Grishoalbrand feels it's unfavored for Grishoalbrand, so take that how you will. Every time I've played against it, the games have been super close.
Regarding mulliganing, I do think it's worth it to mulligan maybe once or twice trying to get a quick hand or one with interaction. The good part that we have going for us is that Scavenging Ooze should be their only grave disruption. I still remember beating Abzan Company (before Vizier) on my turn 1 after he did turn 1, Birds of Paradise. I had a turn 2, but drew a 2nd Simian Spirit Guide on my turn. He showed me a 2nd land and a Scavenging Ooze.
Right now, I am playing Abzan Counters (Vizier combo and Viscera Seer infinite life combo). The key to beating the deck is that you have to never let the Devoted Druid not be summoning sick if you can. If you can't, then you deal with whatever happens. Maybe this is obvious to some, but I don't think you want to even kill it on the upkeep or their turn because they will automatically have 4 mana to use on turn 3 with just him - more if they had a mana dork on turn 1.
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The key to beating the deck is that you have to never let the Devoted Druid not be summoning sick if you can. If you can't, then you deal with whatever happens. Maybe this is obvious to some, but I don't think you want to even kill it on the upkeep or their turn because they will automatically have 4 mana to use on turn 3 with just him - more if they had a mana dork on turn 1.
Agreed. The games I won against them, I was aggressively killing the Druid whenever I could (postboard Collective Brutality, Bontu's Reckoning). At one point I almost was too greedy and I thought about not killing it for one turn to make better use of my mana, but I did anyway (because I often get too cute with my plays). It turns out I would have been dead the following turn had I not killed it.
One of the games against them I misplayed because I didn't take the Aether Vial into account: He had 2 lands and a Vial on 2. I started comboing off post attack and Borboginos wasn't showing up, so I decided to go with a Wurm breach instead of pushing it and trying for one last draw (even if it got me down to 2 life). In my end step, he vialed in the druid, cast Vizier in his main phase, and played the werewolf guy. Sigh. I should have definitely gone for that last draw.
Basically, I think you can think about this deck as the BR Griselbrand/Emrakul Fury of the Horde build, except it has a more consistent combo kill with Griselbrand that doesn't _have_ to use the combat step, though it typically does, and is better at putting the opponent away after getting a nonlethal Emrakul hit in, since Fateful Showdown for 3 or whatever is not hard to assemble.
Attempts to combo kill with Griselbrand have two fail cases: 1) you don't draw Fateful Showdown. This happens sometimes, and is a reason to consider not drawing the last 7 cards if going that low will be dangerous. 2) Not drawing enough mana to cast Showdown. This is usually only a problem when you're going for it on turn 2/3 and don't have the luxury of leaving untapped lands up. But Plunge REALLY helps you pull this one off. Also, sometimes you can just put a hasty Emrakul into play before the combat step instead of hitting with Griselbrand for 7 and trying to find the last pieces to Showdown them. This is obviously preferable to taking a chance on missing the needed pieces. Note also that if you have excess mana, you can use Looting and Cathartic to dig further to find the showdown. Just make sure you don't deck yourself with Showdown (see below)!
I'm not entirely sure how strong the deck is. I do think it's better than the Fury of the Horde builds, but I don't know about Grishoalbrand just because I have so little experience with that archetype. I do like being able to Goryo's Emrakul, which is a thing you can't do with Worldspine Wurm. I'm still bitter about learning that the hard way.
I also played it in an IQ over the weekend, and went 3-3. Perhaps with some absurd variance. For example round 1 I played against BR Hollow One, and had a turn 3 "kill" (i.e. put a fatty into play) in my opener all three games. Game 1 I Griselbrand + Showdowned him. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (he was on the play). Game 3 he had turn 0 Leyline, and my turn 3 kill would have used Goryo's. Similarly, in round 6 I had a turn 3 kill in my opener against Bushwhacker Zoo all three games. Game 1 I Emrakulled him to death. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (again, he was on the play). Game 3 I had the turn 3 kill, but he was clearly representing Deflecting Palm. So I passed, put Griselbrand into play at the end of his turn 3, then on my turn 4 added Emrakul and attacked. I went to 4 after he Palmed because of lifelink, but put him on no permanents and at something like 8 life. He found a fetch and went to 5, then killed me before I could power up my Fateful Showdown for lethal. Dems da breaks.
Some useful notes:
Pact of Negation felt awful, since we can't usually win at instant speed, and in many matchups where you want Pact, Emrakul isn't typically lethal. After the IQ, I've replaced it with Guttural Response, and it's felt a lot better.
If you have more cards in hand than in your library when you cast a lethal Fateful Showdown, you will draw the game. Even if you discard an Emrakul this way. But if you have a spare mana and can Faithless Looting away an Emrakul before you cast Showdown, that's usually enough to keep Showdown from also killing you.
Fateful Showdown is also secretly interaction and card selection. A common line is to kill something like a Scavenging Ooze while cycling 4+ cards in your hand, possibly putting a Griselbrand into the graveyard.
Note that if you need to be sure you hit Showdown to win with Griselbrand and you've had to filter several away, you can always discard an Emrakul to shuffle them back in.
This deck really wants better card selection more than anything else you might try to improve. Not that I think better options exist.
I don't know how much this shows up in other builds, but I've hardcast a lot of Griselbrands with this shell. There's just so much fast mana.
IRL I have an EE over the Lightning Axe.
People on MTGO seem to get upset when you finish them off with Showdown after a nonlethal Emrakul.
Basically, I think you can think about this deck as the BR Griselbrand/Emrakul Fury of the Horde build, except it has a more consistent combo kill with Griselbrand that doesn't _have_ to use the combat step, though it typically does, and is better at putting the opponent away after getting a nonlethal Emrakul hit in, since Fateful Showdown for 3 or whatever is not hard to assemble. missed this function of the card. pretty sweet
Attempts to combo kill with Griselbrand have two fail cases: 1) you don't draw Fateful Showdown. This happens sometimes, and is a reason to consider not drawing the last 7 cards if going that low will be dangerous. 2) Not drawing enough mana to cast Showdown. This is usually only a problem when you're going for it on turn 2/3 and don't have the luxury of leaving untapped lands up. But Plunge REALLY helps you pull this one off. Also, sometimes you can just put a hasty Emrakul into play before the combat step instead of hitting with Griselbrand for 7 and trying to find the last pieces to Showdown them. This is obviously preferable to taking a chance on missing the needed pieces. Note also that if you have excess mana, you can use Looting and Cathartic to dig further to find the showdown. Just make sure you don't deck yourself with Showdown (see below)!
I'm not entirely sure how strong the deck is. I do think it's better than the Fury of the Horde builds, but I don't know about Grishoalbrand just because I have so little experience with that archetype. I do like being able to Goryo's Emrakul, which is a thing you can't do with Worldspine Wurm. I'm still bitter about learning that the hard way.Agree it feels better than the fury version. I've tried a variety of non-shoal, non-Borby versions, such as straight BR, Grixis, BR with blood moon etc. I felt like there were too many instances where a cheated fatty didn't end the game on the spot, or the combo was too hard to assemble consistently. A big draw to playing Grishoalbrand is the fact that you can win at instant speed on the spot and its great burn matchup. I felt like all of the non-borby/shoal versions suffered from a bad blue matchup as well as anything remotely linear. With borby blue decks are great to play against
I also played it in an IQ over the weekend, and went 3-3. Perhaps with some absurd variance. For example round 1 I played against BR Hollow One, and had a turn 3 "kill" (i.e. put a fatty into play) in my opener all three games. Game 1 I Griselbrand + Showdowned him. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (he was on the play). Game 3 he had turn 0 Leyline, and my turn 3 kill would have used Goryo's. Similarly, in round 6 I had a turn 3 kill in my opener against Bushwhacker Zoo all three games. Game 1 I Emrakulled him to death. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (again, he was on the play). Game 3 I had the turn 3 kill, but he was clearly representing Deflecting Palm. So I passed, put Griselbrand into play at the end of his turn 3, then on my turn 4 added Emrakul and attacked. I went to 4 after he Palmed because of lifelink, but put him on no permanents and at something like 8 life. He found a fetch and went to 5, then killed me before I could power up my Fateful Showdown for lethal. Dems da breaks.i sympathize.. one of the most frustrating thing I experienced playing the non-combo version was finishing the opponent off. Playing bad cards like Lavaclaw Reaches isn't the answer either.
Some useful notes:
Pact of Negation felt awful, since we can't usually win at instant speed, and in many matchups where you want Pact, Emrakul isn't typically lethal. After the IQ, I've replaced it with Guttural Response, and it's felt a lot better. Have you tried defense grid? I'm not sure how often you'd be using splice tricks in this version, and I feel like defense grid would make life harder for your opponent even if it costs more to do EoT spells. Guttaral seems like a reasonable option as well, or just play more discards
If you have more cards in hand than in your library when you cast a lethal Fateful Showdown, you will draw the game. Even if you discard an Emrakul this way. But if you have a spare mana and can Faithless Looting away an Emrakul before you cast Showdown, that's usually enough to keep Showdown from also killing you.
Fateful Showdown is also secretly interaction and card selection. A common line is to kill something like a Scavenging Ooze while cycling 4+ cards in your hand, possibly putting a Griselbrand into the graveyard.
Note that if you need to be sure you hit Showdown to win with Griselbrand and you've had to filter several away, you can always discard an Emrakul to shuffle them back in.
This deck really wants better card selection more than anything else you might try to improve. Not that I think better options exist.yup, feel your pain. need a black serum vision obviously.
I don't know how much this shows up in other builds, but I've hardcast a lot of Griselbrands with this shell. There's just so much fast mana. happens sometimes but not very often. I could see your list going up in # of Grave Titans with all of your mana accelerants. You could also play some manamorphoses as cantrips/ways to filter mana into casting griselbrand from your red mana
IRL I have an EE over the Lightning Axe.
People on MTGO seem to get upset when you finish them off with Showdown after a nonlethal Emrakul. harvest all of the salt
A one of Lavaclaw Reaches actually sounds kinda interesting...
I considered Defense Grid, but EOT Goryo's/Emrakul + untap try again is a common line against blue decks, often splicing onto a ritual in order to get multiple uses. But maybe it's worth giving up those lines to really put the hurt on countermagic. I really wish Field of Ruin wasn't everywhere in the blue decks so that the land which grants uncounterable was better.
More Grave Titans does sound pretty sweet. I'd really like a haymaker that the countermagic decks can't deal with. Something like Dromoka, but castable.
Wanting manamorphose to filter the mana for Griselbrand hasn't come up much in my experience, but shrinking the deck size is interesting. I'm not entirely sure how to fit it in though. Shaving a Cathartic is easy, but after that I dunno.
Someone on reddit suggested trying 1-2 Insolent Neonate instead of Cathartics, since it sometimes will be great with Infernal Plunge to help power out Breach those T2/3 breaches. I think it's worth trying.
A one of Lavaclaw Reaches actually sounds kinda interesting...
I considered Defense Grid, but EOT Goryo's/Emrakul + untap try again is a common line against blue decks, often splicing onto a ritual in order to get multiple uses. But maybe it's worth giving up those lines to really put the hurt on countermagic. I really wish Field of Ruin wasn't everywhere in the blue decks so that the land which grants uncounterable was better.
More Grave Titans does sound pretty sweet. I'd really like a haymaker that the countermagic decks can't deal with. Something like Dromoka, but castable.
Wanting manamorphose to filter the mana for Griselbrand hasn't come up much in my experience, but shrinking the deck size is interesting. I'm not entirely sure how to fit it in though. Shaving a Cathartic is easy, but after that I dunno.
Someone on reddit suggested trying 1-2 Insolent Neonate instead of Cathartics, since it sometimes will be great with Infernal Plunge to help power out Breach those T2/3 breaches. I think it's worth trying.
well, you kinda were pioneering manamorphose in traverse shadows so I had assumed you would like that situation:p
I think both defense grid and EOT spell/splice limits the effectiveness of countermagic. I like that it severely restrictes the lines of play from control decks which gives you more options. Plus it's permanent based hate that your opponent should have no answers for. And agree, Boseiju ceased to be viable as soon as Field of Ruin started seeing widespread play.
I've been testing Grave Titans in the grishoalbrand SB. I'd imagine it'd be better in your shell due to all of the ramp. I like that it creates immediate value and can win the game on its own. Also like that it's a viable Breach thread because 6 power haste which leaves 8 powers of damage will win the game sometime.
Cathartic has been the worst card in my grishoalbrand lists by far. I've been actively looking for other solutions (like MD lightning axe or brutality). Neonate seems interesting as a roadblock/extra ways to get them down to 15. Great with infernal Plunge obviously. I'm leaning towards the list not being better than Grishoalbrand, but it looks interesting enough/fun enough that I want to give it a try and challenge people to a showdown.
Yeah, Morphose is probably worth making it fit. Especially since Cathartic is so unimpressive. I plan on trying the extra Grave Titans. I tried the Neonates just now, and they allowed for some nice trickery with holding reanimation targets in hand until the last moment, and, like you said, chip shot damage pre-emrakul. (3-2 in that league) I liked having access to them. Defense Grid is definitely worth trying too.
I suspect you're probably right about which build is better, mainly because the life gain is really good right now. I feel about 50/50 against Hollow One and Affinity, a little worse against Burn, and can almost never beat Humans (I'm like 1-8 against them so far). But I think there's some promise here if the issues can be fixed, if only because it's a little more consistent about putting a fatty into play since Goryo's can target Emrakul, and unlike older Grisebrand/Emrakul builds it has a fairly consistent combo-kill off Griselbrand once it's in play. Though probably not as consistent as Grishoalbrand's combo-kill.
Maybe the secret is to pick the right tertiary color. Blue seems natural due to the card selection, but we could play stuff like Lingering Souls, or even Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseum --- Fateful Showdown is a kill for that combo too.
My team scraped in 24th with a record of X-5. Across the course of the 14 rounds I had 10 turn 2 wins, 7 of them against Tron, 3 of those through hate.
Given the opportunity to play it again I'd change 1 Bontu's Reckoning to an Anger of the Gods.
I don't have the time right now to write out my entire sideboard notes as they include play/draw for most match ups but this sideboard is pretty tight. I did not feel the need for a Grave Titan or an Emrakul in the board. All of my losses were to variance against match ups with a clock (Humans, Affinity, Affinity)
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My team scraped in 24th with a record of X-5. Across the course of the 14 rounds I had 10 turn 2 wins, 7 of them against Tron, 3 of those through hate.
Given the opportunity to play it again I'd change 1 Bontu's Reckoning to an Anger of the Gods.
I don't have the time right now to write out my entire sideboard notes as they include play/draw for most match ups but this sideboard is pretty tight. I did not feel the need for a Grave Titan or an Emrakul in the board. All of my losses were to variance against match ups with a clock (Humans, Affinity, Affinity)
Yeah, Morphose is probably worth making it fit. Especially since Cathartic is so unimpressive. I plan on trying the extra Grave Titans. I tried the Neonates just now, and they allowed for some nice trickery with holding reanimation targets in hand until the last moment, and, like you said, chip shot damage pre-emrakul. (3-2 in that league) I liked having access to them. Defense Grid is definitely worth trying too.
I suspect you're probably right about which build is better, mainly because the life gain is really good right now. I feel about 50/50 against Hollow One and Affinity, a little worse against Burn, and can almost never beat Humans (I'm like 1-8 against them so far). But I think there's some promise here if the issues can be fixed, if only because it's a little more consistent about putting a fatty into play since Goryo's can target Emrakul, and unlike older Grisebrand/Emrakul builds it has a fairly consistent combo-kill off Griselbrand once it's in play. Though probably not as consistent as Grishoalbrand's combo-kill.
Maybe the secret is to pick the right tertiary color. Blue seems natural due to the card selection, but we could play stuff like Lingering Souls, or even Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseum --- Fateful Showdown is a kill for that combo too.
ad naus+angel's grace idea is so far fetched and degenerate that I may have to try..
also, don't worry about humans. just as how I felt vs GDS when they were popular, I just hope to win 2 sideboarded games and turn 2 them or draw all of my sweepers and pray. awful matchup
I actually feel not too bad against the shadow decks. It's still bad, but sometimes you can just kill them with Fateful Showdown for a moderate amount if they get too aggro on their life total. I've stolen more than one game that way.
I actually feel not too bad against the shadow decks. It's still bad, but sometimes you can just kill them with Fateful Showdown for a moderate amount if they get too aggro on their life total. I've stolen more than one game that way.
I'd imagine it's better for your list because of those 3 extra win cons. I was talking about for shoal where there was no way for me to ever punish the low life total besides the actual combo
My team scraped in 24th with a record of X-5. Across the course of the 14 rounds I had 10 turn 2 wins, 7 of them against Tron, 3 of those through hate.
Given the opportunity to play it again I'd change 1 Bontu's Reckoning to an Anger of the Gods.
I don't have the time right now to write out my entire sideboard notes as they include play/draw for most match ups but this sideboard is pretty tight. I did not feel the need for a Grave Titan or an Emrakul in the board. All of my losses were to variance against match ups with a clock (Humans, Affinity, Affinity)
Great job! punish those durdley players
I'm not sure if Chalice of the Void is appropriate in this meta - did you find yourself bringing them in much?
i was feeling degenerate so i impulse bought my fateful showdowns. i found that the combo was pretty embarrassing sometimes. i turn 2 and turn 3d a griselbrand and led to me drawing 21 blanks. i forgot how much shoal helps this deck. there were a few times where ssgs were the bottleneck so i guess plunges may be a necessary evil even though the card looks mopey.
loved the neonates over the hugs as a blocker and a pinger. i think i would play a few md interactions as additional discard outlets.
the deck feels fun but I'm not sure if i can handle what i think is a meaningfully higher fail rate than grishoalbrand
Cathartic has been the worst card in my grishoalbrand lists by far. I've been actively looking for other solutions (like MD lightning axe or brutality).
I was *just* coming here to ask about this.
After thinking some more about my last tournament, I was almost never excited about drawing Cathartic Reunion and I was often hoping for some small creature removal (Meddling Mage, Devoted Druid, Freebooter...). So I was thinking of straight swapping the 2 Cathartic Reunions for 2 Collective Brutality. Not sure if you leave Lightning Axe in or change it for another CB or some extra card drawing (Read the Bones? Maybe even an extra Manamorphose?)
i was feeling degenerate so i impulse bought my fateful showdowns. i found that the combo was pretty embarrassing sometimes. i turn 2 and turn 3d a griselbrand and led to me drawing 21 blanks. i forgot how much shoal helps this deck. there were a few times where ssgs were the bottleneck so i guess plunges may be a necessary evil even though the card looks mopey.
loved the neonates over the hugs as a blocker and a pinger. i think i would play a few md interactions as additional discard outlets.
the deck feels fun but I'm not sure if i can handle what i think is a meaningfully higher fail rate than grishoalbrand
Yeah, Plunge is definitely a necessary evil in the shell. It's really important for making sure you hit enough mana. I had a turn 2 kill fizzle against humans at a weekly last night because I didn't hit a Spirit guide in 21 cards :/. It happens. Sometimes you can mitigate the fail rate by waiting a turn so that you have one more land, but obviously sometimes your opponents aren't so cooperative. (Waiting until turn 3 to try to kill him did not seem like a good idea, given the two drops in that deck).
The Griselbrand fail rate will always be higher in this build than in the Shoal build, so for it to be worth it, having Emrakul over Wurm as the secondary fatty has to make it worth it - both in terms of just being a better fatty (which isn't always true, since those bodies Wurm leaves behind are real!), and because Goryo's can target Emrakul, making it a little easier to assemble a combo.
I'm with you on some interaction over Cathartics MD.
I beat a variety of decks, but my 3 losses came from 3 Vizier combo decks. Is it bad luck, or are we just very unfavored vs Vizier Combo? Any particular tricks or sideboard cards we should keep in mind to deal with them, or is it just a matter of mulliganing hard to be faster than them?
That being said, it is not as bad a some matchups. I love lightning axe in the matchup as well as the sweepers. Most of their hate, as well as their wincons, are creature based. EE is also good on 2 if you’re running it.
Regarding mulliganing, I do think it's worth it to mulligan maybe once or twice trying to get a quick hand or one with interaction. The good part that we have going for us is that Scavenging Ooze should be their only grave disruption. I still remember beating Abzan Company (before Vizier) on my turn 1 after he did turn 1, Birds of Paradise. I had a turn 2, but drew a 2nd Simian Spirit Guide on my turn. He showed me a 2nd land and a Scavenging Ooze.
Right now, I am playing Abzan Counters (Vizier combo and Viscera Seer infinite life combo). The key to beating the deck is that you have to never let the Devoted Druid not be summoning sick if you can. If you can't, then you deal with whatever happens. Maybe this is obvious to some, but I don't think you want to even kill it on the upkeep or their turn because they will automatically have 4 mana to use on turn 3 with just him - more if they had a mana dork on turn 1.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Agreed. The games I won against them, I was aggressively killing the Druid whenever I could (postboard Collective Brutality, Bontu's Reckoning). At one point I almost was too greedy and I thought about not killing it for one turn to make better use of my mana, but I did anyway (because I often get too cute with my plays). It turns out I would have been dead the following turn had I not killed it.
One of the games against them I misplayed because I didn't take the Aether Vial into account: He had 2 lands and a Vial on 2. I started comboing off post attack and Borboginos wasn't showing up, so I decided to go with a Wurm breach instead of pushing it and trying for one last draw (even if it got me down to 2 life). In my end step, he vialed in the druid, cast Vizier in his main phase, and played the werewolf guy. Sigh. I should have definitely gone for that last draw.
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Infernal Plunge
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Faithless Looting
4 Night's Whisper
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Temple of Malice
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Blood Moon
2 Collective Brutality
1 Grave Titan
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Lightning Axe
2 Pact of Negation
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
Yes, I'm tooting my own horn
I was just going to pm you about this what's with the Fateful Showdown and Infernal Plunge? How do they work out in practice?
Attempts to combo kill with Griselbrand have two fail cases: 1) you don't draw Fateful Showdown. This happens sometimes, and is a reason to consider not drawing the last 7 cards if going that low will be dangerous. 2) Not drawing enough mana to cast Showdown. This is usually only a problem when you're going for it on turn 2/3 and don't have the luxury of leaving untapped lands up. But Plunge REALLY helps you pull this one off. Also, sometimes you can just put a hasty Emrakul into play before the combat step instead of hitting with Griselbrand for 7 and trying to find the last pieces to Showdown them. This is obviously preferable to taking a chance on missing the needed pieces. Note also that if you have excess mana, you can use Looting and Cathartic to dig further to find the showdown. Just make sure you don't deck yourself with Showdown (see below)!
I'm not entirely sure how strong the deck is. I do think it's better than the Fury of the Horde builds, but I don't know about Grishoalbrand just because I have so little experience with that archetype. I do like being able to Goryo's Emrakul, which is a thing you can't do with Worldspine Wurm. I'm still bitter about learning that the hard way.
I also played it in an IQ over the weekend, and went 3-3. Perhaps with some absurd variance. For example round 1 I played against BR Hollow One, and had a turn 3 "kill" (i.e. put a fatty into play) in my opener all three games. Game 1 I Griselbrand + Showdowned him. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (he was on the play). Game 3 he had turn 0 Leyline, and my turn 3 kill would have used Goryo's. Similarly, in round 6 I had a turn 3 kill in my opener against Bushwhacker Zoo all three games. Game 1 I Emrakulled him to death. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (again, he was on the play). Game 3 I had the turn 3 kill, but he was clearly representing Deflecting Palm. So I passed, put Griselbrand into play at the end of his turn 3, then on my turn 4 added Emrakul and attacked. I went to 4 after he Palmed because of lifelink, but put him on no permanents and at something like 8 life. He found a fetch and went to 5, then killed me before I could power up my Fateful Showdown for lethal. Dems da breaks.
Some useful notes:
Interesting stuff! Have some thoughts in red..
I considered Defense Grid, but EOT Goryo's/Emrakul + untap try again is a common line against blue decks, often splicing onto a ritual in order to get multiple uses. But maybe it's worth giving up those lines to really put the hurt on countermagic. I really wish Field of Ruin wasn't everywhere in the blue decks so that the land which grants uncounterable was better.
More Grave Titans does sound pretty sweet. I'd really like a haymaker that the countermagic decks can't deal with. Something like Dromoka, but castable.
Wanting manamorphose to filter the mana for Griselbrand hasn't come up much in my experience, but shrinking the deck size is interesting. I'm not entirely sure how to fit it in though. Shaving a Cathartic is easy, but after that I dunno.
Someone on reddit suggested trying 1-2 Insolent Neonate instead of Cathartics, since it sometimes will be great with Infernal Plunge to help power out Breach those T2/3 breaches. I think it's worth trying.
well, you kinda were pioneering manamorphose in traverse shadows so I had assumed you would like that situation:p
I think both defense grid and EOT spell/splice limits the effectiveness of countermagic. I like that it severely restrictes the lines of play from control decks which gives you more options. Plus it's permanent based hate that your opponent should have no answers for. And agree, Boseiju ceased to be viable as soon as Field of Ruin started seeing widespread play.
I've been testing Grave Titans in the grishoalbrand SB. I'd imagine it'd be better in your shell due to all of the ramp. I like that it creates immediate value and can win the game on its own. Also like that it's a viable Breach thread because 6 power haste which leaves 8 powers of damage will win the game sometime.
Cathartic has been the worst card in my grishoalbrand lists by far. I've been actively looking for other solutions (like MD lightning axe or brutality). Neonate seems interesting as a roadblock/extra ways to get them down to 15. Great with infernal Plunge obviously. I'm leaning towards the list not being better than Grishoalbrand, but it looks interesting enough/fun enough that I want to give it a try and challenge people to a showdown.
I suspect you're probably right about which build is better, mainly because the life gain is really good right now. I feel about 50/50 against Hollow One and Affinity, a little worse against Burn, and can almost never beat Humans (I'm like 1-8 against them so far). But I think there's some promise here if the issues can be fixed, if only because it's a little more consistent about putting a fatty into play since Goryo's can target Emrakul, and unlike older Grisebrand/Emrakul builds it has a fairly consistent combo-kill off Griselbrand once it's in play. Though probably not as consistent as Grishoalbrand's combo-kill.
Maybe the secret is to pick the right tertiary color. Blue seems natural due to the card selection, but we could play stuff like Lingering Souls, or even Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseum --- Fateful Showdown is a kill for that combo too.
4x Griselbrand
4x Worldspine Wurm
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Borborygmos Enraged
Spells
4x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Through the Breach
4x Night's Whisper
4x Faithless Looting
2x Manamorphose
2x Cathartic Reunion
2x Desperate Ritual
1x Lightning Axe
1x Collected Brutality
4x Temple of Malice
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Mountain
5x Swamp
3x Blood Moon
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Shattering Spree
2x Pact of Negation
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Collective Brutality
My team scraped in 24th with a record of X-5. Across the course of the 14 rounds I had 10 turn 2 wins, 7 of them against Tron, 3 of those through hate.
Given the opportunity to play it again I'd change 1 Bontu's Reckoning to an Anger of the Gods.
I don't have the time right now to write out my entire sideboard notes as they include play/draw for most match ups but this sideboard is pretty tight. I did not feel the need for a Grave Titan or an Emrakul in the board. All of my losses were to variance against match ups with a clock (Humans, Affinity, Affinity)
"All Warfare is deception" -Sun Tzu
"Magic is just another form of Warfare" - Anonymous
Odd list I assume there are 4 shoals there too?
also, don't worry about humans. just as how I felt vs GDS when they were popular, I just hope to win 2 sideboarded games and turn 2 them or draw all of my sweepers and pray. awful matchup
I'm not sure if Chalice of the Void is appropriate in this meta - did you find yourself bringing them in much?
loved the neonates over the hugs as a blocker and a pinger. i think i would play a few md interactions as additional discard outlets.
the deck feels fun but I'm not sure if i can handle what i think is a meaningfully higher fail rate than grishoalbrand
I was *just* coming here to ask about this.
After thinking some more about my last tournament, I was almost never excited about drawing Cathartic Reunion and I was often hoping for some small creature removal (Meddling Mage, Devoted Druid, Freebooter...). So I was thinking of straight swapping the 2 Cathartic Reunions for 2 Collective Brutality. Not sure if you leave Lightning Axe in or change it for another CB or some extra card drawing (Read the Bones? Maybe even an extra Manamorphose?)
Yeah, Plunge is definitely a necessary evil in the shell. It's really important for making sure you hit enough mana. I had a turn 2 kill fizzle against humans at a weekly last night because I didn't hit a Spirit guide in 21 cards :/. It happens. Sometimes you can mitigate the fail rate by waiting a turn so that you have one more land, but obviously sometimes your opponents aren't so cooperative. (Waiting until turn 3 to try to kill him did not seem like a good idea, given the two drops in that deck).
The Griselbrand fail rate will always be higher in this build than in the Shoal build, so for it to be worth it, having Emrakul over Wurm as the secondary fatty has to make it worth it - both in terms of just being a better fatty (which isn't always true, since those bodies Wurm leaves behind are real!), and because Goryo's can target Emrakul, making it a little easier to assemble a combo.
I'm with you on some interaction over Cathartics MD.