I do like brutality against infect. It usually takes two spells (one to protect their guy and one discarded) but sometime it kills their guy and takes a spell,which is a blowout. I also like axe as one pump can't protect from it. It has to be protection, which they will skimp on. Chalice, Blood moon, EE are all good and anger isn't embarrassing if you don't have better options. Bantu probably is worth it too, but you want to be careful not to dilute the core too much and all sorceress leave you cold to inkmoth.
Is Chalice pretty much a necessity now? I don't want to drop $140-210 for just a sideboard card. This is the list I'm running now and I have yet to take a match off Grixis DS.
Leyline of Sanctity is the budget version, since it turns of at least all the discard. However, you are still cold to Denial, so you still need to SB in the Pacts.
You would board something like this:
+4 Leylines, +2 Pacts
-1 Temple (even on the play or in your list rather Bog), -2 Brutality, -1 Through the Breach, -1 Hug, -1 Morphose
The reason for only one Hug is, cause you have more dead cards in your deck, which you want to cycle through.
@finalnub, regarding the Storm deck. Yeah, they can win out of the blue but so can we. We have the advantage to go off at instant speed, so we can actually pick the moment when we want to do something while the Storm player is forced to do it in his turn in one of the Mainphases.
Hence, as long as he has not the turn 3 kill we should have more than enough time to pick a moment, where we are in an advantage.
Regarding your PPTQ, sucks to play against GB Infect in the last round AND than to have really bad draws
Btw. against GB Infect I would board like this:
+2 Chalice, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Brutality and board the same 5 cards out.
An early Moon is gg and an early Chalice SHOULD by you enough time to gobble something together. However, since you have no Lightning Axe in your SB, the (second) best card vs Infect is missing here. If you had one, I would board this in over the Brutality (even though that card is great on turn 2 vs Infect).
Greetings,
Kathal
yup agreee on all accounts. i just automatically associated 2 color deck and hierarchs as a non moon deck without thinking about it further. at least I'll know next time+
Jerome Bastogne, who I believe has played Grishoalbrand in the Worlds, was 9-0 in GP Birmingham and finished 11-4. Interesting list below. Some commentary below on the decklist as well as discussion points that I think are interesting in the current meta.
*Pretty amusing that I'm not the only one who dislikes Hugs! He has one voice and no hugs, which I find super curious. Flex spots look to be 1 Voice, 1 Push, 2 Manamorphose (I run 3 Hugs, 1 ritual). I still think actual cantrips are the best things to have in the 60. Maybe i'll try the third manamorphose for a bit over a hug because a lot of people seems to be doing it even though I dislike that in theory..
*I heavily dislike the Push in 75, and much moreso the push in the main deck. We are a combo deck and should be streamlining our 60 and making your opponents answer us rather than vice versa.
*3 Leyline of Sanctity. I'm assuming this is for Shadows and GBx. it's such a narrow card and is a literal dead draw later on. And it's not like we need that much help vs traditional GBx anyway, although it has additional utility vs Valakut (not like we need the help, especially with Moon), Storm (Admittedly a tough matchup), Burn (rather have Brutality+Pacts, already a good matchup).
*3 Leyline of the Void. Assuming this is also to get Shadows decks got. Don't like it one bit. I'd rather get 'em through chalices and Moon which also have much broader applications. It's powerful against Storm too, but otherwise Dredge and Living End and the likes have been trending way down. We should be favored against graveyard decks that aren't Grixis Shadows
*No Boseiju, no Emrakul. We've touched on that a bit in the thread but I think that's right. Emrakul has utility vs. Leyline decks, control and Ad Nauseam but we can work around those.
*2 Shatterstorms. Do not like this choice as a lot of the times you are bringing artifact hate in to destroy a single Reilc or a single Cage. Right now I like Shattering Spree>Vandal Blast>Shatterstorm
*Pyroclasm vs. Kozilek's Return vs. Bontu's Last Reckoning vs. Anger of the Gods. I've been struggling with my sweeper suite. I am currently at 2 Reckonings and 1 Return but that's nowhere near set in stone. Some quick pros for each below. I think Reckonings and Returns are where you want to be right now with Affinity at the top.
Pyroclasm
+1 turn faster (meaningful vs. Affinity, Burn. Vizier Coco)
-Do not hit Finks, spell Quellers, Etched Champions, Prized Amalgams, most Scavenging Oozes, Barals. May miss Merfolks sometimes)
Kozilek's Return
+Much, much better vs. Affinity - hits manlands and Champions too
+Is an instant speed interaction which may matter vs. Vizier Coco
-Do not hit the same things Pyroclasms do not hit
Anger of the Gods
+much better vs. dorky green Coco decks, stopping Ewitness and persist shenanigans in their tracks
+Hits Finks, Spell Quellers, Etched Champions, Amalgams, some Oozes, Barals, Splicer Golems, some Merfolks
-double red may be a challenging requirement specifically vs. Affinity, where you may want BB for Last Reckoning. Also may be tough vs. Merfolk
Bontu's Last Reckoning
+Hits all of the problematic creatures (Shadow, Tasigur, Angler, Goyfs, Restoration Angels
-Can still get crushed by manlands afterwards
I would run a 1/1/1 split between Pyro, Return and Return 2 (or Anger). An evenly spread is probably the best.
Btw. His SB sucks, cause of the reasons you mentioned AND he did a ton of questionable plays (playing the cantrips in the wrong order, cutting himself of from outs,...), when he was on camera. Dunno tbh how to rate his performance :/
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Good analysis guys, thanks!
As much as I agree with the analysis, I think black leyline plus push is a solid way to approach the grixis shadow matchup. IF you have a leyline in your opener and draw a push in a reasonable amount of time, they will have a very slow time winning, which gives us a lot of time to find a winning line. And if they use their counters to save their guy, we have an easier time winning as well. That said, I think chalice has more matchups currently where it shines, so having the flexibility there is better. And if I want to kill death's shadows, I'd play EE over push for the same reason, not to mention you can deploy it proactively on 1 and hit a shadow or a spellbomb. Of course this leaves their delve threats mostly unchecked (bontu is our only answer there).
I have pretty much hated hugs and am looking for things to replace it with. Interesting that tormenting voice got the nod here, as it is a 'strictly worse' hugs. But maybe we more often have a single card to discard. I am tempted to play a 5th Night's Whisper (Sign in Blood) if the meta stays relatively non-aggressive. Of course if burn has an uptick, that is a bad plan. Maybe additional manamorphose is the way to go as you suggested.
I agree that white leyline seems bad. I can see some of the applications, but seems weak in all of them. I suppose manamorphose lets you cast it, but ... I'm not in the market for that.
I'm interested to see what other people like for sweepers. I'm trying out a mix currently with kozi and bontu. Since I haven't seen any dredge in a while, I haven't felt the need for anger.
Thanks again for pointing out the list and giving a good analysis of it!
t0adman, Leyline unfortunately isn't close to a 1 hit KO against them. The real problems are the discards and the counterspells. With their high density of cantrips, they will eventually see their shadows/pyromancer and kill you in short order. And EE likely won't put in the work you'd want it to - most of the times it's just going to be one shadows plus a snapcaster/delver beating you down. In that case, even a push or a murderous cut would be better.
I would definitely play Read the Bones over Sign in Blood
I would highly recommend against transforming your deck in such a way that you are no longer being proactive and asking the questions. I would much proactively shut down the opposing gameplan through moons and chalices. Leylines are deader than dead late game.
You're right that Leyline is not a KO, it just slows them WAY down. If you have a leyline, they are basically on DS or enemic snap beatdowns. This is where push in conjunction with leyline is actually pretty decent. I do agree, however, that this is not the strategy that we want to pursue. I was just theorizing why he went with that choice, and I do think it has some validity in that specific matchup.
Similarly, Chalice is not a KO because they'll eventually get a kcommand, delve threat or beat you down with snap. Chalice of course has the upside of shutting down most of their counters, hate and cantrips. Of course keeping and resolving a chalice is going to be difficult if they expect it (which they probably won't). The big value to chalice is it's usefulness in other matchups, though. There are just a lot of decks in modern right now that are weak to chalice.
I don't think that EE is the best answer to a shadow, but it is a reasonable answer to a shadow that doubles as an answer to cage, spellbomb, relic, etc. It can even hit a leyline with a manamorphose, but I certainly wouldn't count on it there. It's also pretty great against affinity and other aggressive decks. So, the reasons I like it is it's flexibility to hit threats or hate. Same reason I prefer chalice to leyline; flexibility.
You are absolutely correct about diluting the deck to the point that it is no longer proactive. That is a losing strategy. I also agree that Leylines are not where we want to be, but I do think there is some logic behind them and I can see where a reasonable person might want to give it a try.
Btw, Finalnub, what is your preferred 75 currently?
Grixis Shadows most certainly would not have Kcommand after sideboarding, not until you show them the Chalice. Chalice is as close to a 1 hit KO as you can get, because it shuts down the cantrips that'd enable them to dig closer to a delver, discard to take away your combo pieces, and their stubborn denial.
EE is indeed good against Affinity. But it's likely not the card you'd want to bring in against Grixis Shadows. I would rather keep in combo pieces/bring in Pacts before EE.
I am planning to take the following to my PPTQ this weekend. I think Lightning Axe is in a really good spot right now. am close to main decking it but Brutality has greater universal application. I do support cutting Hugs for a lightning axe though, as it's pretty good against a lot of decks right now
That list looks very very close to what I have been playing. I like a second Manamorphose and don't really like Hugs (but haven't found a replacement yet). Are they just necessary or can I get by with a mix of Brutality and Lightning Axe?
I like the sideboard, but am wavering between the second Bontu and second Kozi.
I like EE against any permanent based gy hate. I like it against decks that I don't know what they might bring because it is so versatile. I also especially like it against decks with discard since you can deploy it on 1 before they rip your hand apart and let it sit there until they put the permanent out. It costs a bit more mana than a Shattering spree, but sits safely on the battlefield until you need it. As you say, they won't have Kcomm against us until they know about chalice.
I hadn't been bringing in Pacts against DS, but probably a good idea. I suppose after board they are going to have at least 3-4 counters. Again, though, we do need to be careful not to become too reactive and stay proactive. Moon plus chalice is already 6 cards, or is Moon just not good enough?
i think we need to have enough discard outlets, I'd rather play tormenting voices over manamorphoses,you really need to be the one posing the questions game 1 so the hugs or voices are great g1 but lightning axe and brutalities have done very well for me so far in the sb
ee is nice to have at least one of. catches cages relics and rips, the nice thing is incidentally alot of rip decks play other hatebears lile thalia and arbiter which means x=2 conveniently takes those out
I'm not sure if pacts are the way to go or more removals, I'll need to try pacts i guess but you are already diluting your deck so much so i dont know, if im bringing in chalices i guess i shouldnt be bringing in laxes,
has anyone tried noxious revival in the flec slot? theoretically it would be a hybrid anti-discard, weak gy hate and shoal rebuyer, sounds ok in theory,
Noxious Revival was in a lot of older lists. In my own experience it is good enough to say that you might want to include it but not great enough to say that you definitely should.
Another nice use is as another green card to pitch to shoal for a spliced TTB.
The other good part about Noxious is that it can counter a surgical extraction. Sure, it undoes the work of getting Gris in you GY, but I'd rather have them in my deck/hand than exile if it comes down to it. But, still not sure if we can afford the slot for it.
I agree we need discard outlets game one, and was wondering if L-axe and Brutality were better than hugs. I played a league last night with it that way and it seemed ok, but not great. L-axe was actually quite good, winning a game against relic when my opponent tapped out for Thalia where nothing else would do it. I'll try a league with hugs today to compare.
Exactly the reasons I like EE. Currently it is the only answer we are running to RIP. I'm tempted to play two. Of course the deck is very tight and there is only so much room, so we have to make hard choices.
I'm waiting for a couple of Noxious to come in from the mail. I figured they would help vs discard decks and if anything help buy back more draw spells or bring back a Griselbrand if we have Breach in hand.
PS, I just played against grixis DS who did keep in Kcomm for game 2. Strange, but it won him the game when he killed my chalice
It's not really weird for them to keep the K-command. They only have about 2 pieces of GY hate and 2 additional counters in the board. That is at most 4 cards that they can bring in against us. The obvious card to remove is fatal push since that is a completely dead draw. K-command has so many relevant modes for them even if they don't excpect any artifacts like bringing back a creature that was milled by scour, force us to discard, or even just 2 to damage
I'm waiting for a couple of Noxious to come in from the mail. I figured they would help vs discard decks and if anything help buy back more draw spells or bring back a Griselbrand if we have Breach in hand.
PS, I just played against grixis DS who did keep in Kcomm for game 2. Strange, but it won him the game when he killed my chalice
It's not really weird for them to keep the K-command. They only have about 2 pieces of GY hate and 2 additional counters in the board. That is at most 4 cards that they can bring in against us. The obvious card to remove is fatal push since that is a completely dead draw. K-command has so many relevant modes for them even if they don't excpect any artifacts like bringing back a creature that was milled by scour, force us to discard, or even just 2 to damage
Would disagree here. yes, the 3/4 pushes are deader than dead for them. But they should have more cards to bring in, between 1-2 Denials, 0-1 countersquall, 0-2 Brutalities, 2-3 graveyard hate, and 0-2 TBR. Kcommand would be the next cut. I also disagree that Kcommand has many relevant modes against this matchup. 2 damage is negligible, most goryo's vengeance decks should not have artifacts, returning a creature is whatever in a non-grindy matchup, and it's super bad to give the Goryo's Vengeance player agency on what to discard.
I'd say it is very dependent on the individual pilot and their familiarity with the match up and sideboarding. Specifically, if you are anticipating Chalice out of the side (or even quicksilver amulet, but that is a not very likely), then K-Command is a perfectly reasonable keep. K-command isn't a dead card either. They can choose themselves as the target for damage (grow a shadow) or discard (niche scenario granted), so it always has relevance. Grabbing a milled creature isn't trivial.
*Pretty amusing that I'm not the only one who dislikes Hugs! He has one voice and no hugs, which I find super curious. Flex spots look to be 1 Voice, 1 Push, 2 Manamorphose (I run 3 Hugs, 1 ritual). I still think actual cantrips are the best things to have in the 60. Maybe i'll try the third manamorphose for a bit over a hug because a lot of people seems to be doing it even though I dislike that in theory..
*I heavily dislike the Push in 75, and much moreso the push in the main deck. We are a combo deck and should be streamlining our 60 and making your opponents answer us rather than vice versa.
*3 Leyline of Sanctity. I'm assuming this is for Shadows and GBx. it's such a narrow card and is a literal dead draw later on. And it's not like we need that much help vs traditional GBx anyway, although it has additional utility vs Valakut (not like we need the help, especially with Moon), Storm (Admittedly a tough matchup), Burn (rather have Brutality+Pacts, already a good matchup).
*3 Leyline of the Void. Assuming this is also to get Shadows decks got. Don't like it one bit. I'd rather get 'em through chalices and Moon which also have much broader applications. It's powerful against Storm too, but otherwise Dredge and Living End and the likes have been trending way down. We should be favored against graveyard decks that aren't Grixis Shadows
*No Boseiju, no Emrakul. We've touched on that a bit in the thread but I think that's right. Emrakul has utility vs. Leyline decks, control and Ad Nauseam but we can work around those.
*2 Shatterstorms. Do not like this choice as a lot of the times you are bringing artifact hate in to destroy a single Reilc or a single Cage. Right now I like Shattering Spree>Vandal Blast>Shatterstorm
*Pyroclasm vs. Kozilek's Return vs. Bontu's Last Reckoning vs. Anger of the Gods. I've been struggling with my sweeper suite. I am currently at 2 Reckonings and 1 Return but that's nowhere near set in stone. Some quick pros for each below. I think Reckonings and Returns are where you want to be right now with Affinity at the top.
Pyroclasm
+1 turn faster (meaningful vs. Affinity, Burn. Vizier Coco)
-Do not hit Finks, spell Quellers, Etched Champions, Prized Amalgams, most Scavenging Oozes, Barals. May miss Merfolks sometimes)
Kozilek's Return
+Much, much better vs. Affinity - hits manlands and Champions too
+Is an instant speed interaction which may matter vs. Vizier Coco
-Do not hit the same things Pyroclasms do not hit
Anger of the Gods
+much better vs. dorky green Coco decks, stopping Ewitness and persist shenanigans in their tracks
+Hits Finks, Spell Quellers, Etched Champions, Amalgams, some Oozes, Barals, Splicer Golems, some Merfolks
-double red may be a challenging requirement specifically vs. Affinity, where you may want BB for Last Reckoning. Also may be tough vs. Merfolk
Bontu's Last Reckoning
+Hits all of the problematic creatures (Shadow, Tasigur, Angler, Goyfs, Restoration Angels
-Can still get crushed by manlands afterwards
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Night's Whisper
1 Tormenting Voice
2 Desperate Ritual
1 Fatal Push
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Manamorphose
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Through the Breach
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Temple of Malice
1 Fatal Push
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Pact of Negation
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shatterstorm
Btw. His SB sucks, cause of the reasons you mentioned AND he did a ton of questionable plays (playing the cantrips in the wrong order, cutting himself of from outs,...), when he was on camera. Dunno tbh how to rate his performance :/
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
As much as I agree with the analysis, I think black leyline plus push is a solid way to approach the grixis shadow matchup. IF you have a leyline in your opener and draw a push in a reasonable amount of time, they will have a very slow time winning, which gives us a lot of time to find a winning line. And if they use their counters to save their guy, we have an easier time winning as well. That said, I think chalice has more matchups currently where it shines, so having the flexibility there is better. And if I want to kill death's shadows, I'd play EE over push for the same reason, not to mention you can deploy it proactively on 1 and hit a shadow or a spellbomb. Of course this leaves their delve threats mostly unchecked (bontu is our only answer there).
I have pretty much hated hugs and am looking for things to replace it with. Interesting that tormenting voice got the nod here, as it is a 'strictly worse' hugs. But maybe we more often have a single card to discard. I am tempted to play a 5th Night's Whisper (Sign in Blood) if the meta stays relatively non-aggressive. Of course if burn has an uptick, that is a bad plan. Maybe additional manamorphose is the way to go as you suggested.
I agree that white leyline seems bad. I can see some of the applications, but seems weak in all of them. I suppose manamorphose lets you cast it, but ... I'm not in the market for that.
I'm interested to see what other people like for sweepers. I'm trying out a mix currently with kozi and bontu. Since I haven't seen any dredge in a while, I haven't felt the need for anger.
Thanks again for pointing out the list and giving a good analysis of it!
I would definitely play Read the Bones over Sign in Blood
I would highly recommend against transforming your deck in such a way that you are no longer being proactive and asking the questions. I would much proactively shut down the opposing gameplan through moons and chalices. Leylines are deader than dead late game.
Similarly, Chalice is not a KO because they'll eventually get a kcommand, delve threat or beat you down with snap. Chalice of course has the upside of shutting down most of their counters, hate and cantrips. Of course keeping and resolving a chalice is going to be difficult if they expect it (which they probably won't). The big value to chalice is it's usefulness in other matchups, though. There are just a lot of decks in modern right now that are weak to chalice.
I don't think that EE is the best answer to a shadow, but it is a reasonable answer to a shadow that doubles as an answer to cage, spellbomb, relic, etc. It can even hit a leyline with a manamorphose, but I certainly wouldn't count on it there. It's also pretty great against affinity and other aggressive decks. So, the reasons I like it is it's flexibility to hit threats or hate. Same reason I prefer chalice to leyline; flexibility.
You are absolutely correct about diluting the deck to the point that it is no longer proactive. That is a losing strategy. I also agree that Leylines are not where we want to be, but I do think there is some logic behind them and I can see where a reasonable person might want to give it a try.
Btw, Finalnub, what is your preferred 75 currently?
EE is indeed good against Affinity. But it's likely not the card you'd want to bring in against Grixis Shadows. I would rather keep in combo pieces/bring in Pacts before EE.
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blackcleave Cliff
1 Blood Crypt
5 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Faithless Looting
4 Night's Whisper
2 Cathartic Reunion
1 Collective Brutality
4 Griselbrand
4 Worldspine Wurm
2 Borborygmos Enraged
3 Desperate Ritual
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Nourishing Shoal
1 Manamorphose
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pact of Negation
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Lightning Axe
2 Kozilek's Return
I like the sideboard, but am wavering between the second Bontu and second Kozi.
I like EE against any permanent based gy hate. I like it against decks that I don't know what they might bring because it is so versatile. I also especially like it against decks with discard since you can deploy it on 1 before they rip your hand apart and let it sit there until they put the permanent out. It costs a bit more mana than a Shattering spree, but sits safely on the battlefield until you need it. As you say, they won't have Kcomm against us until they know about chalice.
I hadn't been bringing in Pacts against DS, but probably a good idea. I suppose after board they are going to have at least 3-4 counters. Again, though, we do need to be careful not to become too reactive and stay proactive. Moon plus chalice is already 6 cards, or is Moon just not good enough?
ee is nice to have at least one of. catches cages relics and rips, the nice thing is incidentally alot of rip decks play other hatebears lile thalia and arbiter which means x=2 conveniently takes those out
I'm not sure if pacts are the way to go or more removals, I'll need to try pacts i guess but you are already diluting your deck so much so i dont know, if im bringing in chalices i guess i shouldnt be bringing in laxes,
Another nice use is as another green card to pitch to shoal for a spliced TTB.
I agree we need discard outlets game one, and was wondering if L-axe and Brutality were better than hugs. I played a league last night with it that way and it seemed ok, but not great. L-axe was actually quite good, winning a game against relic when my opponent tapped out for Thalia where nothing else would do it. I'll try a league with hugs today to compare.
Exactly the reasons I like EE. Currently it is the only answer we are running to RIP. I'm tempted to play two. Of course the deck is very tight and there is only so much room, so we have to make hard choices.
It's not really weird for them to keep the K-command. They only have about 2 pieces of GY hate and 2 additional counters in the board. That is at most 4 cards that they can bring in against us. The obvious card to remove is fatal push since that is a completely dead draw. K-command has so many relevant modes for them even if they don't excpect any artifacts like bringing back a creature that was milled by scour, force us to discard, or even just 2 to damage
Would disagree here. yes, the 3/4 pushes are deader than dead for them. But they should have more cards to bring in, between 1-2 Denials, 0-1 countersquall, 0-2 Brutalities, 2-3 graveyard hate, and 0-2 TBR. Kcommand would be the next cut. I also disagree that Kcommand has many relevant modes against this matchup. 2 damage is negligible, most goryo's vengeance decks should not have artifacts, returning a creature is whatever in a non-grindy matchup, and it's super bad to give the Goryo's Vengeance player agency on what to discard.