izzetmage, I'm actually a fan of untapping before I loot. I now force my opponent to boot my dork before it untaps. If the dork dies, then I loot accordingly. Looting before I untap risks the discard dork, then dork dies without untapping blowout.
So apparently this is the new hot kid on the block. I have heard rumors of it consistently going off at least on turn three and being very resilient to multiple angles of disruption, as I witnessed myself by playing against it (admittably not with a tier one but still a disruptive deck) and sucking hard. On the other hand, I tried some games playing it and it seemed to be quite susceptible to UWr's mix of burn spells on mana dorks and well-placed Spell Snares/Leaks. Anyway, it has started to popping up in multiple top8s and rumors told me that expert SCGers are spreading the word about its strength.
Some questions. Not all of these really make sense and some are arguably stupid but I love to speculate. <1) Do you think there is a remote chance this could get the banhammer? From what I have seen it may take several multiples to execute all the double-triggering Ascendancy motions.>
2) I played against a version with Ideas Unbound, Faithless Looting and Fatesticher. I was skeptical at first because of all of those seem to be suboptimal choices in a pinch but eventually the haste aspect proved to be crucial, and the more I think about it the more a hasty "dork" makes sense to get victories out of nowhere. Fatesticher also allows virtually to go off from a single card in hand with an Ascendancy on the field. Has anyone tried it to provide a good argument?
3) How's the matchup against Jund?
Thanks to whoever will answer!
I love Haste dorks, though I prefer Wind Zendikon because it actually stays on the battlefield (that has won me games post-fizzle), tries to do something against Faeries/Delver/Twin/heavy control (typically bad match-ups for me) and Infect (a race for dork-heavy versions, I'm the control with my build), and is a 1-cmc noncreature spell that untaps and loots (Zendikon is sometimes my first noncreature spell post-Ascendancy).
My Jund match-up pre-board is around even (give or take 10%); others have reported worse match-ups. I keep testing alt win con trumps; my latest attempt is Worm Harvest (which I predict Jund will have a tough time against, as it resists targeted discard, spot removal, board wipes, and racing with Goyf--all problems previous cards I tried couldn't quite handle and this deck's Plan A tends to choke to).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tested Worm Harvest against Jund some more--success! Success beyond my wildest dreams! Worm Harvest actually wins the Jund match-up all by itself most of the time! Sick of targeted discard ripping out Sigarda or Keranos? Sick of Goyf forcing Sigarda upright to block? Sick of board wipes eating Sigarda? Sick of Keranos not being able to peg Goyf? Sick of Geist of Saint Traft not being able to get through a Goyf? Sick of Traft dying to Anger of the Gods? Play Worm Harvest instead, pray they can't find Scavenging Ooze in time, and you'll block all their Goyfs for days, turn all their Abrupt Decays into Worm removal spells, and win with a gazillion Worms!
...Worm Harvest isn't so hot against UWR, though, because they'll counter it to heck and back and burn you out when you finally land Worms, so beware. I'd rather Wish for Guttural Response against them.
I know it can be burned away, but how much of a speed bump is Gaddock Teeg for this deck? You can wish for answers, but it shuts down Cruise to find wish and it shuts off Debt.
I know this isn't the budget forum, but do any of the people that have been playtesting deck a lot over the last week have a feeling for the best noble hierarch replacement? 4 BoP/4 Caryatid/4... Fatestitcher or wind zendikon or arbor elf? From my testing, I feel like it's most likely arbor elf, but I wanted a second opinion if anyone had one.
You laugh. Honestly. If my opponent plays a Revoker, I'm scared, because that shuts off whichever mana dork I have in play. But it doesn't actually have any interaction with Glittering Wish.
I know this isn't the budget forum, but do any of the people that have been playtesting deck a lot over the last week have a feeling for the best noble hierarch replacement? 4 BoP/4 Caryatid/4... Fatestitcher or wind zendikon or arbor elf? From my testing, I feel like it's most likely arbor elf, but I wanted a second opinion if anyone had one.
For speed, Arbor Elf and rigging your mana base is probably the best.
I honestly prefer Wind Zendikon and rigging my mana base (go on high end for land count, higher Island non-Forest count because I can afford to, lower Mana Confluence number because Zendikon Confluence during the combo turn truly sucks) because the fear of 4 Zendikons letting me combo off on 4-5 lands alone lets me grind better (and, if they expect Sam Black variants, combo off more often), and Zendikons are 1-cmc noncreature spells that stick around and beat/block for flying 2.
Fatestitcher and Zendikon probably provide similar results, though. Fatestitcher has the pros of tapping out a lot of blockers/lands, fixing more colours, ignoring Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter, and letting you combo off on 3-4 lands if you discarded it beforehand.
One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
Now, I'm already accepting that I can't do this on MTGO, but if I do this at a tournament, can I shortcut it? Like, I have 1 card in my GY and its known information (since I just put it on bottom of my library) that its a Cerulean Wisps. I play a Gitaxian Probe. Can I just say, "I do this 10000 times, creating X blue mana from my creature with each spell and putting X counters on each creature"? Or, since it involves the library, can we not shortcut it? I'm just curious how it would play out, especially if (for example) you're trying to be quick because you lost g1 and need to win a g3?
If you can explain each step of the combo and the result each time and demonstrate it all once, it's legal to shortcut it (with your opponent's permission). Library not relevant.
Okay, I was just wondering since one of the other decks I play is U-tron, and you can't shortcut a Slaver lock to mill someone out because there's still "randomized" elements in their library, even though the end result with you tapping them out each turn makes their cards irrelevant.
Okay, I was just wondering since one of the other decks I play is U-tron, and you can't shortcut a Slaver lock to mill someone out because there's still "randomized" elements in their library, even though the end result with you tapping them out each turn makes their cards irrelevant.
You can't shortcut the whole process, but you can shortcut the subprocesses. You can say "On each of my turns, I'm going to Ruins Mindslaver, draw+cast+sac Mindslaver, and pass the turn back." Then you can also say "On each of your turns, I'm going to draw a card, tap all your mana sources, discard the card that you drew, and pass the turn." So you set up a scenario where all you're doing is picking up cards off the top of your opponent's library and putting them into their graveyard. You still have to go through the motions, but there are motions you don't have to go through (i.e., drawing+casting Mindslaver and tapping your mana sources, and tapping your opponent's mana sources).
In Wheel's case, as long as you can demonstrate that you can deterministically perform the same actions each cycle iteration, then the combo's fine. The issue comes up with the fact that in SlaverLock, there are theoretical outs your opponent can draw, such as Pacting your Slaver, running 8 Eldrazi, etc, etc.
In either case, either player can choose to ask for priority at any point during the loop, but only if they plan on doing something with that priority.
Alright. So I'm to start playing the deck just so that way I can understand it better. And I'll share my thoughts as I see fit. this combo is complex enough that we probably need a video? Normally I'm the guy who makes videos, i'm not an expert at combo so it might be better if izzet does one. Regardless if I get comfortable enough with this combo on make a video to try to illustrate every step of the combo.
Has anyone managed to beat B/G/x decks with this yet? How would you estimate the matchup to be? I look at a typical Abzan list like mine and see like 23 maindeck cards that are good against Ascendancy Storm.
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One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
How does the WoSaM anti-infinite work if I assume they have 10,000,000 life and the combo intact? Do I enchant myself and hope they don't gain another 10,000,000 life in response to my kill spell/combat swing, or do I enchant them?
Has anyone managed to beat B/G/x decks with this yet? How would you estimate the matchup to be? I look at a typical Abzan list like mine and see like 23 maindeck cards that are good against Ascendancy Storm.
Yup, I've beaten BGx Midrange quite a few times with my list. The pre-board match-up used to be more even to slightly rough with more regular lists, but since I tried Worm Harvest in the Wishboard, it's swung to being in my favour. Just Wish for Worm Harvest first, start dumping lands to it, and they often can't handle it and the combo threat at the same time. It's like turning into the Ultimate Pack Rat deck against them.
One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
How does the WoSaM anti-infinite work if I assume they have 10,000,000 life and the combo intact? Do I enchant myself and hope they don't gain another 10,000,000 life in response to my kill spell/combat swing, or do I enchant them?
I would imagine that you enchant yourself with WoSaM and point your grapeshot, or whatever your win condition of choice is, at the combo to break it up, then generate enough storm/mana with your last cantrips and then point the kill spell at their face.
I love Haste dorks, though I prefer Wind Zendikon because it actually stays on the battlefield (that has won me games post-fizzle), tries to do something against Faeries/Delver/Twin/heavy control (typically bad match-ups for me) and Infect (a race for dork-heavy versions, I'm the control with my build), and is a 1-cmc noncreature spell that untaps and loots (Zendikon is sometimes my first noncreature spell post-Ascendancy).
My Jund match-up pre-board is around even (give or take 10%); others have reported worse match-ups. I keep testing alt win con trumps; my latest attempt is Worm Harvest (which I predict Jund will have a tough time against, as it resists targeted discard, spot removal, board wipes, and racing with Goyf--all problems previous cards I tried couldn't quite handle and this deck's Plan A tends to choke to).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tested Worm Harvest against Jund some more--success! Success beyond my wildest dreams! Worm Harvest actually wins the Jund match-up all by itself most of the time! Sick of targeted discard ripping out Sigarda or Keranos? Sick of Goyf forcing Sigarda upright to block? Sick of board wipes eating Sigarda? Sick of Keranos not being able to peg Goyf? Sick of Geist of Saint Traft not being able to get through a Goyf? Sick of Traft dying to Anger of the Gods? Play Worm Harvest instead, pray they can't find Scavenging Ooze in time, and you'll block all their Goyfs for days, turn all their Abrupt Decays into Worm removal spells, and win with a gazillion Worms!
...Worm Harvest isn't so hot against UWR, though, because they'll counter it to heck and back and burn you out when you finally land Worms, so beware. I'd rather Wish for Guttural Response against them.
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If this deck is at 1-2 cards in hand and 1 mana dork on the field then yeah, it'll probably fizzle if it tries to go off through Teeg.
Shutting off Debt is irrelevant because this deck would have gotten rid of Teeg with a Wished answer before it tries to cast Debt.
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| Infect
Big Johnny.
i feeeeellll like the featured thread of oct should more halloweeny.... But thats just me... ~lantern.
You might also want to swap out a few of the weaker cantrips for Chromatic Star.
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| Infect
Big Johnny.
You laugh. Honestly. If my opponent plays a Revoker, I'm scared, because that shuts off whichever mana dork I have in play. But it doesn't actually have any interaction with Glittering Wish.
For speed, Arbor Elf and rigging your mana base is probably the best.
I honestly prefer Wind Zendikon and rigging my mana base (go on high end for land count, higher Island non-Forest count because I can afford to, lower Mana Confluence number because Zendikon Confluence during the combo turn truly sucks) because the fear of 4 Zendikons letting me combo off on 4-5 lands alone lets me grind better (and, if they expect Sam Black variants, combo off more often), and Zendikons are 1-cmc noncreature spells that stick around and beat/block for flying 2.
Fatestitcher and Zendikon probably provide similar results, though. Fatestitcher has the pros of tapping out a lot of blockers/lands, fixing more colours, ignoring Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter, and letting you combo off on 3-4 lands if you discarded it beforehand.
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Now, I'm already accepting that I can't do this on MTGO, but if I do this at a tournament, can I shortcut it? Like, I have 1 card in my GY and its known information (since I just put it on bottom of my library) that its a Cerulean Wisps. I play a Gitaxian Probe. Can I just say, "I do this 10000 times, creating X blue mana from my creature with each spell and putting X counters on each creature"? Or, since it involves the library, can we not shortcut it? I'm just curious how it would play out, especially if (for example) you're trying to be quick because you lost g1 and need to win a g3?
You can't shortcut the whole process, but you can shortcut the subprocesses. You can say "On each of my turns, I'm going to Ruins Mindslaver, draw+cast+sac Mindslaver, and pass the turn back." Then you can also say "On each of your turns, I'm going to draw a card, tap all your mana sources, discard the card that you drew, and pass the turn." So you set up a scenario where all you're doing is picking up cards off the top of your opponent's library and putting them into their graveyard. You still have to go through the motions, but there are motions you don't have to go through (i.e., drawing+casting Mindslaver and tapping your mana sources, and tapping your opponent's mana sources).
In Wheel's case, as long as you can demonstrate that you can deterministically perform the same actions each cycle iteration, then the combo's fine. The issue comes up with the fact that in SlaverLock, there are theoretical outs your opponent can draw, such as Pacting your Slaver, running 8 Eldrazi, etc, etc.
In either case, either player can choose to ask for priority at any point during the loop, but only if they plan on doing something with that priority.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
How does the WoSaM anti-infinite work if I assume they have 10,000,000 life and the combo intact? Do I enchant myself and hope they don't gain another 10,000,000 life in response to my kill spell/combat swing, or do I enchant them?
Yup, I've beaten BGx Midrange quite a few times with my list. The pre-board match-up used to be more even to slightly rough with more regular lists, but since I tried Worm Harvest in the Wishboard, it's swung to being in my favour. Just Wish for Worm Harvest first, start dumping lands to it, and they often can't handle it and the combo threat at the same time. It's like turning into the Ultimate Pack Rat deck against them.
I agree, but I only have zoo cards online, and I'm also not with a working pc til at least mid oct.
I would imagine that you enchant yourself with WoSaM and point your grapeshot, or whatever your win condition of choice is, at the combo to break it up, then generate enough storm/mana with your last cantrips and then point the kill spell at their face.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
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