Could anyone go into more detail on the 3 grapeshot plan?
Having 3 grapeshot makes game 1 kills a lot more common, because getting a grapeshot for 20 isn't easy, but casting two copies for 10 and 11 damage is much easier. Having that many copies also enables other even shorter combo kills by giving one or more of them flashback (3+4+Past in Flames+6+7 is 20 damage and takes only 7 mana to go off with a reducer.) It also lets us cut a copy or two for sideboard cards while having the ability to still get a grapeshot kill in games 2 and 3 (It's normally cut when we expect graveyard hate from our opponent, but I like to keep one copy in because they're not assured to find their hate cards.)
I'm about to buy into the deck and currently deciding my list. My question is about the mana base, each deck I see seems to use different lands. Is there any consensus on a standard mana base? And why it differs so much from one list to another?
Thanks!
At the SCG Modern Open last week, Caleb Scherer got a Top8 with a fetchless land base that cut the 7 fetches for a 4th Island, a 4th Steam Vents, 4 Shivan Reef and 1 Cascade Bluffs. So there's a bit of debate if the fetches are helping or not - I personally feel that getting the shuffle is helpful, especially since I all too often see two cards I really want whenever I cast Sleight of Hand. However if you see a lot of mono white hatebears that use Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor all the time it becomes very appealing.
You may want to test both and see what works best for you, but picking up the canals and steam vents are going to be mandatory, and fetches are just good to have for modern and legacy in general.
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#1: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-0)
G1 highlights: I win die roll. Tap out to put Baral down T2. Opponent EOT push. I pay 2 life to Apostle's Blessing. He untaps, fetches and shocks to serum visions, uses the other mana to push again. I untap on T3, put a second baral down, and go off.
Sideboard: 2 Epic Experiment, 1 Peer through Depths IN, 1 Gifts, 1 Past, 1 Sleight OUT.
I want to reduce my reliance on GY. Its not a given that he would be playing Leyline of the Void, but I assume he does.
G2 highlights: I take a hit from tasigur, he gets 2 shadows at 2/2 on the board, and a Lily. Using 2 Manamophoses and a Noxious Revival with 2 Reducer in play, I make 4 mana (morphose1, noxious that morphose1, morphose2 into morphose1, morphose1), draw 3 cards hitting a peer, and peer into a gifts, and go off with the last 1 mana and an untapped land.
#2: Elves (2-0)
G1 highlights: he elfballs but there is no Ezuri payoff nor Shaman. I punish the lack of removal by going off blind, grapeshotting all his elves, but being able to finish the game anyway with some luck from the cantrips.
Sideboard: 2 Pyroclasm, Into the Roil IN, Sleight, Apostle's Blessing, Empty OUT
I'm not going wide against Elves so I take out the redundant wincon, acknowledging that if this opponent plays surgical extraction on my grapeshot I'm done. I pack 2 pyroclasms to see if a wipe opportunity comes up, and Into the Roil for any Rule of Law/Eidolon/Ethersworn shenanigans.
G2 highlights: He starts with a Leyline of the Void, which I didn't expect. I bounce it the turn before I want to combo, and exactly 1 turn before I am going to die to an elfball that has already drained me 10 life (8 life remaining) with a board that sports an impressive power. Didn't count, definitely way more than 8. I start to go off with 2 reducers (I love playing against decks with no removal) and at one point he chords for an ooze to eat my PIF. After activating ooze he has 1 mana left. I cast Noxious on my PiF and in response he activates again, leaving himself tapped out but me with no PiF and a medium sized storm count and a dead GY. I cantrip and peer my way into another gifts with some luck, and gifts again. Although I don't have 3 floating, I have 2 reducers and am able to go off.
#3: Eldratron
G1 Highlights: I win the die roll. He kept a 1 lander with multiple chalices and maps. A high reward, high stakes hand that would have killed me if he drew a second land on the draw. He doesn't.
Sideboard: 3 Blood Moons, 2 Epic Experiment, 1 Shatterstorm, 2 Empty the Warrens IN, 2 Grapeshot, 1 PIF, 1 Gifts, 2 Sleight, 1 Apostle's blessing, 1 Peer OUT. Again reducing that reliability on GY. Against Relics and Grafdiggers, I really don't want to count on a grapeshot kill. Its going to a quick goblin beatdown under a blood moon.
G2 Highlights: True enough there is a relic AND a cage as early as turn 2. Which is OK because I moon on T2 as well. I get some weird draws and by turn 4 I have 3 (3!!!) electromancers beating face. we're both laughing at the ridiculousness of it. I do a mini empty and finish the game with goblins.
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Good job Marc. It seems you're not running into 8rack at all lately, which means a lot of your fears were probably pretty baseless
I do have a few questions: How good is Epic Experiment as a "win without the graveyard" card, and why Sulfur Falls? Do you think you lose too much life by having the 3rd shockland in there or something?
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Good job Marc. It seems you're not running into 8rack at all lately, which means a lot of your fears were probably pretty baseless
I do have a few questions: How good is Epic Experiment as a "win without the graveyard" card, and why Sulfur Falls? Do you think you lose too much life by having the 3rd shockland in there or something?
The 8rack player hasn't been coming to the LGS, and he's in my playgroup/playtesting group. The player pool is somewhat small at the LGS so if he does eventually show up I am guaranteed a smashing by raven's crime & co. For now, I've only met him in a slew of friendly/casual matches. (though nothing feels friendly about those encounters)
Epic experiment is something I chose to do over Pieces of the Puzzle, as you may have already used before. To sum up the card, it is high risk, high reward. While pieces will stock up your hand with some luck, experiment demands you invest all your mana and rituals into your luck portfolio, and you either crash and burn or win spectacularly right there and then (flipping up a bunch of rituals and cantrips off a single huge experiment and finishing with an empty is very entertaining). The worst I've done is Experiment for 7 and hit only 1 ritual, 2 moons and 4 lands (are you srs right now) and the best the card has done is show me an empty, morphose and ritual off a X = 4 experiment. (You shouldn't experiment for less than 4 anyways)
If there is a reason to play experiment, its fun. And yes you don't need your grave for it.
Sulphur falls, eh, I just felt like losing less life from lands. It has mattered in a couple games, which means I won with 2 life or less. It has also bit me in the butt a couple games, meaning I got stuck with a lame start like spirebluff and sulphur falls. On the average? Its mostly saving me 2-3 life that doesn't end up mattering (because its just the last 1 life that really matters). Something to note is that my tech spells cost me life to play, and I run dismember. Using my life as a resource means I need to get that from somewhere else, which happens to be my manabase. I honestly don't have a final answer for you yet, and it probably still boils down to what you draw. On the average, it hasn't mattered that much.
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I'm going to be playing in an upcoming local pptq and had a few questions about flex spots and card choices that I was hoping someone with more experience with the deck may be able to comment on.
Simian Spirit Guide:
Has anyone tried playing a 1of SSG in the maindeck in place of a Pyretic Ritual purely for gifts piles? I've found that sometimes (if I already have a pif in hand or graveyard) I want to gifts for 4 rituals.
Number of cost reducers:
7 cost reducers or 8?
Sideboard Blood Moon:
Many people have had success without blood moon. Which decks is blood moon typically used against and what do people that do not have access to blood moon in their 75 bring in for these matchups instead?
Sideboard Leyline of Sanctity:
Most of the successful storm decks do not include sideboard leyline. Are people off this completely?
I'm going to be playing in an upcoming local pptq and had a few questions about flex spots and card choices that I was hoping someone with more experience with the deck may be able to comment on.
Simian Spirit Guide:
Has anyone tried playing a 1of SSG in the maindeck in place of a Pyretic Ritual purely for gifts piles? I've found that sometimes (if I already have a pif in hand or graveyard) I want to gifts for 4 rituals.
Number of cost reducers:
7 cost reducers or 8?
Sideboard Blood Moon:
Many people have had success without blood moon. Which decks is blood moon typically used against and what do people that do not have access to blood moon in their 75 bring in for these matchups instead?
Sideboard Leyline of Sanctity:
Most of the successful storm decks do not include sideboard leyline. Are people off this completely?
I have not tested SSG, but I do remember a list or two that ran a 1-of a couple months ago. It enabled turn 2 kills sometimes with a god hand (turn 1 land, turn 2 land reducer SSG ritual manamorphose gifts win) but doesn't offer great upside otherwise.
Reducers depends on what you want to do with your flex spots. If you can reliably play 8 without affecting what you want to tech in, do so. If you need one more spot, going to 3 electromancer is fine.
SB Blood Moon is good for shutting off decks that are really reliant on non-basic lands. All Tron variants, most death's shadow builds, and possibly affinity can really be screwed over by this. (and if you go land SSG ritual you can blood moon turn 1) If you don't have it, I'd double up on general hate cards like Pyroclasm, Tormod's Crypt, or Shatterstorm depending on your meta. You need to determine what matchups you need help the most, though.
Sideboard Leyline is something that people are mostly off, I would only advocate it if you're in a metagame that has tons of discard forcused decks, to where you expect to play 30% or more of your matches against those decks. in a PPTQ setting I'd be off it.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Hey players, I was at the SCG, drew very bad matchups in the open, Burn *2, deaths shadow, jund, Rock, Eldrazi tron and was taken out in round 7 by a rogue enduring ideal deck. Saw Caleb playing, I'm guessing the 0 fetch plan was a meda call against all the Leonins and avens in modern right now. Based off the decks I saw didn't seem like the right call, blood moon was very good in the meda and you'll want fetches for that. Remand is insanity and was very good in this meda. I can't say I know why Caleb dropped it, but he is a very intelligent player. Based off my experience and calebs list I am going to be trying swan song in the sideboard, besides that, my list was exactly what I wanted. Day 2 I entered the classic, 260 players. My matchups were burn*2, affinity*2, valakut, mono green devotion, baby eldrazi, blue white control, and blue moon. Made top 8 and then lost to burn. Here is my decklist http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=115390
Any matchup questions, I'm keen to reply.
Ive never really liked the 3rd steam vents. Any opinions on island vs shivan reef vs cascade bluff vs sulfur falls in its place? I can't decide which drawback I can live with the most lol. I've been using a fourth island and haven't suffered from now being able to find red in over 25 games. Shivan's benefit is subject to variance. Bluff can make keepable one land hands unkeepable but us otherwise great. Sulfur falls on the other hand can be a tempo loss. Any thoughts on "optimal"?
So apparently Caleb Scherer played no fetches to have perfect information what you scryed to the bottom. Between the Peers, Serums and Sleights he keeps track what is on the bottom and in what numbers he has seen the card so he knows the probability of seeing whatever cards he wants to see.
Im not sure if it weighs out against thinning your deck or free rolling some decks with Blood Moon but it does pose an interesting avenue of thought.
Well we have to remember this is a 2 edged sword. if you have put stuff that u want shuffled back later from a Sleight, or maybe a past in flames that u didnt want to have in your hand exposed to targeted discard too early, you wont have fetches to help push them back up into the library. Secondly, the thinning effect of fetches is nonzero. It matters when we're digging with morphoses and cantrips.
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Burn: I saw lots of burn and am happy to say I managed to stay 50:50. +3 bolt +1 pyroclasm +1 echoing truth +1 empty -2 remand -1 peer -3 sleight. The majority of the burn lists I saw had RIP so echo came in. Wasn't sure about empty, but after talking to several burn players including the one the knocked me out we agreed that bringing in the one is good because burn players will aggressively mulligan into hate cards and can get caught of guard by an early empty. Especially good against eidelon and grave hate.
Deaths shadow: luckily only got this match once but pulled through. +3 empty +2 pieces +1 dismember -1 grapeshot -2 gifts -1 peer through depths -3 remand. On the play I switch out 3 sleights for a remand and blood moon. I also evaluate my opponent in this matchup. I find that many of the GDS players are inexpierience spikes. In this situation I leave in the third grapeshot and bring in lightning bolts. They'll easily make the mistake of bringing there life to low or playing a two small deaths shadow.
Enduring Ideal: if you ever see this deck except that you can't win: mainboard runes halos, rips, leylines and more. Was barely a game.
GBx: +2 bolt +3 empty +2 pieces +2 bloodmoon +1 dismember -2 sleight -2 remand -1 peer -2 gifts -1 grapeshot
Made the mistake of not bringing in bolt once, don't do it, so powerful against Bobs, trackers, scooze, and more. Didnt bring in the last bolt because drawing two is very bad. This is a very hard matchup but definetly winnable.
UWx: So favored here. +2 Blood moon, +2 pieces +2 empty +1 echo -2 gifts -2 sleight -2 electromancer -1 grapeshot. Empty is good because many players make the mistake of taking out there answers, plus most of there answers can't be cast under blood moon. If you don't bring in blood moon for this matchup you are making a huge error, shuts off verdict, cryptic, and there main wincon at the least.
Affinity: this is a real 50:50. +3 bolt +1 pyroclasm +2 spree +1 echo +2 pieces -1 gifts -4 remand -1 peer -1 electromancer -2 sleight. Echoing truth feels bad but you need it for RIP. Pieces is debateable but finding spree is just so powerful that being able to search for it through grave hate while still keeping combo tempo is powerful. Saw a leylines of the void once, idk why it would make a list but was able to storm of for a bolt-grapeshot kill with it on the board.
Valakut: easy matchup +2 spree +2 moon +1 empty - l grapeshot -1 peer -2 sleight -1 electromancer. They will have angers and explosives plus a fast clock so I think it's better to just leave empty out, but I find myself bringing one in all the same out of fear of losing to a slaughter games or something of the nature. Remand has to stay in for chalice even though it's mostly bad.
Eldrazi: +2 blood moon +3 empty +2 spree +1 dismember +2 pieces -2 gifts -2 Baral -1 PIF -1 grapeshot -2 sleight -1 pyretic ritual -1 peer. This is the only matchup I drop a PIF, they just have so much grave hate that combining normally is practically impossible. Baral is slightly worse than goblin in this matchup with some of their only removal being warping wail. Remand is insane. Game one I always try to next level my opponent and finally succeeded last weekend. Don't play anyturn one sleights and don't play any lands that would suggest your a deck other than shadow, Wait for them to drop chalice on 1 then untap and win! This is a matchup you cannot afford to lose so you have to be prepared.
If you cast even 2 cantrips, the maintaining of your scrys outweighs the thinning of your deck. In a sense, scrying thins your deck because with very few shuffle effects, you're not going to be seeing those cards for a long time. Caleb also runs more Peers to maximize this effect, along with more 1 mana cantrips (he's between Peek, Quicken, and Thought Scour at the moment. I've been testing no fetches since the Open, and I feel like it makes the deck a TON more consistent. Try it out, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. And this is coming from someone who owns a playset of Tarns in paper
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Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Seeing as everyone is debating this land issue I thought I would voice my opinion. First question at hand is are you conserving life. After some testing I've found the average amount of damage I take from a fetchland base in a game is around 3.75 and without fetches was closer to 4. This is such a small difference that I think it is trumped by the other pro cons of the land bases. The pros from calebs list include: playing around Leonin easier and an increase in the power of the spell serum visions and the spell peer through depths. Although this is a minuscule difference I believe it is statistically more likely to be relevant than .25 life. For example, you cast peer through depths find an instant/sorcery and bottom the rest. Then proceed the following turn to cast thought scour, if you had fetched, there would be slightly less chance of milling an instant or sorcery. Other benifits include less vulnerability to the spells choke and boil, which both see modern play. Now for the downsides,blood moon becomes illogically bad in the sideboard. This is important but I suspect that Caleb had already cut bloodmoon from his board. It is 100% a meda call. I think the most impactual difference though and the reason I will be playing with fetches the majority of the time, there are a higher number of hands that are either more risky or that have to be mulliganed. Single cascade, double island. Having a painland as your only land against an Aggro deck can be bad news as well.
Here's my take on the two mana bases. I'll try to include every aspect:
Fetchlands:
1 Turn 1 non-blue sources
3 Non-red sources
Some deck thinning
Helps play with and against Blood Moon
Needed if you splash white
4 Reefs, 1 Bluffs, 4 Shocks, 4 Islands :
2 Turn 1 non-blue sources
4 Non-red sources (+1 filter which somewhats mitigates)
Less shuffling, keeps scrys on the bottom
Helps play against fetch hate (ThaliaV2, Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor)
So overall, the manabase is better with fetchlands, and might even be slightly less painful according to DTG_UR. Fetching 2 lands or scrying 2 lands to the bottom will have the exact same effect on draws and fetching will happen more often. Fetches might be a bit worse with multiple Peer Through Depths. Blood Moon and hatebears considerations depends on the meta.
I'll stick with fetches simply for the better mana. If my meta was 50% hatebears I'd reconsider.
The scry point also only makes sense if you are constantly placing useless cards on the bottom of your deck. I've had enough situations where the decision was tough that I WANTED to shuffle a card from sleight of hand back into my library.
Just bought the deck but instead of 4 tarns I went with 2 tarns and 2 delta's due to budget issues. So my mana base is now: 3 Strands, 3 Islands, 1 Mountain, 2 Tarns, 2 Deltas, 4 Canals and 3 Vents for a total of 18 lands. I figured that having only one basic mountain, subbing 2 tarns with 2 deltas wouldn't hurt much. What do you guys think?
Eldrazi: +2 blood moon +3 empty +2 spree +1 dismember +2 pieces -2 gifts -2 Baral -1 PIF -1 grapeshot -2 sleight -1 pyretic ritual -1 peer. This is the only matchup I drop a PIF, they just have so much grave hate that combining normally is practically impossible. Baral is slightly worse than goblin in this matchup with some of their only removal being warping wail. Remand is insane. Game one I always try to next level my opponent and finally succeeded last weekend. Don't play anyturn one sleights and don't play any lands that would suggest your a deck other than shadow, Wait for them to drop chalice on 1 then untap and win! This is a matchup you cannot afford to lose so you have to be prepared.
This only works on the draw though, because otherwise how will you know the opponent is even on Eldrazi Tron if you play first?
Just bought the deck but instead of 4 tarns I went with 2 tarns and 2 delta's due to budget issues. So my mana base is now: 3 Strands, 3 Islands, 1 Mountain, 2 Tarns, 2 Deltas, 4 Canals and 3 Vents for a total of 18 lands. I figured that having only one basic mountain, subbing 2 tarns with 2 deltas wouldn't hurt much. What do you guys think?
Since you can fetch Steam Vents it's not that bad. A tiny bit of frustration, but often times you'll barely notice.
I went 0-3 Drop tonight at FNM. Flooded out against Counters Company, then waited one turn 2 long to go off and he infinite'd. R2 was against UW control, he hit runner-runner saves to win through double EtW, then drew a billion counters in game 3. R3 was burn, he went turn 2 eidolon in the first game, then double eidolon turns 2 and 3 in the second game. Nothing to report on.
One thing the other storm player had in his board tonight, though, was 1 copy of Quicken for the mirror. Any thoughts on that?
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That's true, actually in this situation I just talked about we had similar records so had been at the same table the game before and I had seen what he was playing. Luck!
Quicken is insanely funny and it's the perfect I got you card in the mirror. Unforchienetly, with most storm list playing main board and sideboard counterspells it is unlikely that a quicken grapeshot on the stack of our Grapeshot is unanswerable...
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Having 3 grapeshot makes game 1 kills a lot more common, because getting a grapeshot for 20 isn't easy, but casting two copies for 10 and 11 damage is much easier. Having that many copies also enables other even shorter combo kills by giving one or more of them flashback (3+4+Past in Flames+6+7 is 20 damage and takes only 7 mana to go off with a reducer.) It also lets us cut a copy or two for sideboard cards while having the ability to still get a grapeshot kill in games 2 and 3 (It's normally cut when we expect graveyard hate from our opponent, but I like to keep one copy in because they're not assured to find their hate cards.)
Until very recently the consensus seemed to have been 4 Spirebluff Canal, 3 Steam Vents, 4 Basic Lands (3 island 1 mountain) and 7 Fetchlands.
At the SCG Modern Open last week, Caleb Scherer got a Top8 with a fetchless land base that cut the 7 fetches for a 4th Island, a 4th Steam Vents, 4 Shivan Reef and 1 Cascade Bluffs. So there's a bit of debate if the fetches are helping or not - I personally feel that getting the shuffle is helpful, especially since I all too often see two cards I really want whenever I cast Sleight of Hand. However if you see a lot of mono white hatebears that use Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor all the time it becomes very appealing.
You may want to test both and see what works best for you, but picking up the canals and steam vents are going to be mandatory, and fetches are just good to have for modern and legacy in general.
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Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Decklist:
4 Baral, Chief of Compliance
4 Goblin Electromancer
Rituals (12)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
Combo (6)
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Past in Flames
Wincons (3)
2 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
Cantrips (11)
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Remand
1 Pee Through Depths
1 Apostle's Blessing
1 Noxious Revival
Real Estate (18)
6 Fetches
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Sulphur Falls
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Epic Experiment
1 Into the Roil
1 Peer Through Depths
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
1 Shatterstorm
2 Negate
2 Pyroclasm
Matches:
#1: Grixis Death's Shadow (2-0)
G1 highlights: I win die roll. Tap out to put Baral down T2. Opponent EOT push. I pay 2 life to Apostle's Blessing. He untaps, fetches and shocks to serum visions, uses the other mana to push again. I untap on T3, put a second baral down, and go off.
Sideboard: 2 Epic Experiment, 1 Peer through Depths IN, 1 Gifts, 1 Past, 1 Sleight OUT.
I want to reduce my reliance on GY. Its not a given that he would be playing Leyline of the Void, but I assume he does.
G2 highlights: I take a hit from tasigur, he gets 2 shadows at 2/2 on the board, and a Lily. Using 2 Manamophoses and a Noxious Revival with 2 Reducer in play, I make 4 mana (morphose1, noxious that morphose1, morphose2 into morphose1, morphose1), draw 3 cards hitting a peer, and peer into a gifts, and go off with the last 1 mana and an untapped land.
#2: Elves (2-0)
G1 highlights: he elfballs but there is no Ezuri payoff nor Shaman. I punish the lack of removal by going off blind, grapeshotting all his elves, but being able to finish the game anyway with some luck from the cantrips.
Sideboard: 2 Pyroclasm, Into the Roil IN, Sleight, Apostle's Blessing, Empty OUT
I'm not going wide against Elves so I take out the redundant wincon, acknowledging that if this opponent plays surgical extraction on my grapeshot I'm done. I pack 2 pyroclasms to see if a wipe opportunity comes up, and Into the Roil for any Rule of Law/Eidolon/Ethersworn shenanigans.
G2 highlights: He starts with a Leyline of the Void, which I didn't expect. I bounce it the turn before I want to combo, and exactly 1 turn before I am going to die to an elfball that has already drained me 10 life (8 life remaining) with a board that sports an impressive power. Didn't count, definitely way more than 8. I start to go off with 2 reducers (I love playing against decks with no removal) and at one point he chords for an ooze to eat my PIF. After activating ooze he has 1 mana left. I cast Noxious on my PiF and in response he activates again, leaving himself tapped out but me with no PiF and a medium sized storm count and a dead GY. I cantrip and peer my way into another gifts with some luck, and gifts again. Although I don't have 3 floating, I have 2 reducers and am able to go off.
#3: Eldratron
G1 Highlights: I win the die roll. He kept a 1 lander with multiple chalices and maps. A high reward, high stakes hand that would have killed me if he drew a second land on the draw. He doesn't.
Sideboard: 3 Blood Moons, 2 Epic Experiment, 1 Shatterstorm, 2 Empty the Warrens IN, 2 Grapeshot, 1 PIF, 1 Gifts, 2 Sleight, 1 Apostle's blessing, 1 Peer OUT. Again reducing that reliability on GY. Against Relics and Grafdiggers, I really don't want to count on a grapeshot kill. Its going to a quick goblin beatdown under a blood moon.
G2 Highlights: True enough there is a relic AND a cage as early as turn 2. Which is OK because I moon on T2 as well. I get some weird draws and by turn 4 I have 3 (3!!!) electromancers beating face. we're both laughing at the ridiculousness of it. I do a mini empty and finish the game with goblins.
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I do have a few questions: How good is Epic Experiment as a "win without the graveyard" card, and why Sulfur Falls? Do you think you lose too much life by having the 3rd shockland in there or something?
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The 8rack player hasn't been coming to the LGS, and he's in my playgroup/playtesting group. The player pool is somewhat small at the LGS so if he does eventually show up I am guaranteed a smashing by raven's crime & co. For now, I've only met him in a slew of friendly/casual matches. (though nothing feels friendly about those encounters)
Epic experiment is something I chose to do over Pieces of the Puzzle, as you may have already used before. To sum up the card, it is high risk, high reward. While pieces will stock up your hand with some luck, experiment demands you invest all your mana and rituals into your luck portfolio, and you either crash and burn or win spectacularly right there and then (flipping up a bunch of rituals and cantrips off a single huge experiment and finishing with an empty is very entertaining). The worst I've done is Experiment for 7 and hit only 1 ritual, 2 moons and 4 lands (are you srs right now) and the best the card has done is show me an empty, morphose and ritual off a X = 4 experiment. (You shouldn't experiment for less than 4 anyways)
If there is a reason to play experiment, its fun. And yes you don't need your grave for it.
Sulphur falls, eh, I just felt like losing less life from lands. It has mattered in a couple games, which means I won with 2 life or less. It has also bit me in the butt a couple games, meaning I got stuck with a lame start like spirebluff and sulphur falls. On the average? Its mostly saving me 2-3 life that doesn't end up mattering (because its just the last 1 life that really matters). Something to note is that my tech spells cost me life to play, and I run dismember. Using my life as a resource means I need to get that from somewhere else, which happens to be my manabase. I honestly don't have a final answer for you yet, and it probably still boils down to what you draw. On the average, it hasn't mattered that much.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Simian Spirit Guide:
Has anyone tried playing a 1of SSG in the maindeck in place of a Pyretic Ritual purely for gifts piles? I've found that sometimes (if I already have a pif in hand or graveyard) I want to gifts for 4 rituals.
Number of cost reducers:
7 cost reducers or 8?
Sideboard Blood Moon:
Many people have had success without blood moon. Which decks is blood moon typically used against and what do people that do not have access to blood moon in their 75 bring in for these matchups instead?
Sideboard Leyline of Sanctity:
Most of the successful storm decks do not include sideboard leyline. Are people off this completely?
I have not tested SSG, but I do remember a list or two that ran a 1-of a couple months ago. It enabled turn 2 kills sometimes with a god hand (turn 1 land, turn 2 land reducer SSG ritual manamorphose gifts win) but doesn't offer great upside otherwise.
Reducers depends on what you want to do with your flex spots. If you can reliably play 8 without affecting what you want to tech in, do so. If you need one more spot, going to 3 electromancer is fine.
SB Blood Moon is good for shutting off decks that are really reliant on non-basic lands. All Tron variants, most death's shadow builds, and possibly affinity can really be screwed over by this. (and if you go land SSG ritual you can blood moon turn 1) If you don't have it, I'd double up on general hate cards like Pyroclasm, Tormod's Crypt, or Shatterstorm depending on your meta. You need to determine what matchups you need help the most, though.
Sideboard Leyline is something that people are mostly off, I would only advocate it if you're in a metagame that has tons of discard forcused decks, to where you expect to play 30% or more of your matches against those decks. in a PPTQ setting I'd be off it.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Would you mind sharing your sideboard plan?
Well we have to remember this is a 2 edged sword. if you have put stuff that u want shuffled back later from a Sleight, or maybe a past in flames that u didnt want to have in your hand exposed to targeted discard too early, you wont have fetches to help push them back up into the library. Secondly, the thinning effect of fetches is nonzero. It matters when we're digging with morphoses and cantrips.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Burn: I saw lots of burn and am happy to say I managed to stay 50:50. +3 bolt +1 pyroclasm +1 echoing truth +1 empty -2 remand -1 peer -3 sleight. The majority of the burn lists I saw had RIP so echo came in. Wasn't sure about empty, but after talking to several burn players including the one the knocked me out we agreed that bringing in the one is good because burn players will aggressively mulligan into hate cards and can get caught of guard by an early empty. Especially good against eidelon and grave hate.
Deaths shadow: luckily only got this match once but pulled through. +3 empty +2 pieces +1 dismember -1 grapeshot -2 gifts -1 peer through depths -3 remand. On the play I switch out 3 sleights for a remand and blood moon. I also evaluate my opponent in this matchup. I find that many of the GDS players are inexpierience spikes. In this situation I leave in the third grapeshot and bring in lightning bolts. They'll easily make the mistake of bringing there life to low or playing a two small deaths shadow.
Enduring Ideal: if you ever see this deck except that you can't win: mainboard runes halos, rips, leylines and more. Was barely a game.
GBx: +2 bolt +3 empty +2 pieces +2 bloodmoon +1 dismember -2 sleight -2 remand -1 peer -2 gifts -1 grapeshot
Made the mistake of not bringing in bolt once, don't do it, so powerful against Bobs, trackers, scooze, and more. Didnt bring in the last bolt because drawing two is very bad. This is a very hard matchup but definetly winnable.
UWx: So favored here. +2 Blood moon, +2 pieces +2 empty +1 echo -2 gifts -2 sleight -2 electromancer -1 grapeshot. Empty is good because many players make the mistake of taking out there answers, plus most of there answers can't be cast under blood moon. If you don't bring in blood moon for this matchup you are making a huge error, shuts off verdict, cryptic, and there main wincon at the least.
Affinity: this is a real 50:50. +3 bolt +1 pyroclasm +2 spree +1 echo +2 pieces -1 gifts -4 remand -1 peer -1 electromancer -2 sleight. Echoing truth feels bad but you need it for RIP. Pieces is debateable but finding spree is just so powerful that being able to search for it through grave hate while still keeping combo tempo is powerful. Saw a leylines of the void once, idk why it would make a list but was able to storm of for a bolt-grapeshot kill with it on the board.
Valakut: easy matchup +2 spree +2 moon +1 empty - l grapeshot -1 peer -2 sleight -1 electromancer. They will have angers and explosives plus a fast clock so I think it's better to just leave empty out, but I find myself bringing one in all the same out of fear of losing to a slaughter games or something of the nature. Remand has to stay in for chalice even though it's mostly bad.
Eldrazi: +2 blood moon +3 empty +2 spree +1 dismember +2 pieces -2 gifts -2 Baral -1 PIF -1 grapeshot -2 sleight -1 pyretic ritual -1 peer. This is the only matchup I drop a PIF, they just have so much grave hate that combining normally is practically impossible. Baral is slightly worse than goblin in this matchup with some of their only removal being warping wail. Remand is insane. Game one I always try to next level my opponent and finally succeeded last weekend. Don't play anyturn one sleights and don't play any lands that would suggest your a deck other than shadow, Wait for them to drop chalice on 1 then untap and win! This is a matchup you cannot afford to lose so you have to be prepared.
UR Storm
URB Grixis Delver
W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Fetchlands:
I'll stick with fetches simply for the better mana. If my meta was 50% hatebears I'd reconsider.
This only works on the draw though, because otherwise how will you know the opponent is even on Eldrazi Tron if you play first?
Otherwise, if it works this is pretty funny.
Since you can fetch Steam Vents it's not that bad. A tiny bit of frustration, but often times you'll barely notice.
I went 0-3 Drop tonight at FNM. Flooded out against Counters Company, then waited one turn 2 long to go off and he infinite'd. R2 was against UW control, he hit runner-runner saves to win through double EtW, then drew a billion counters in game 3. R3 was burn, he went turn 2 eidolon in the first game, then double eidolon turns 2 and 3 in the second game. Nothing to report on.
One thing the other storm player had in his board tonight, though, was 1 copy of Quicken for the mirror. Any thoughts on that?
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP