I've been playing the deck for more than 5 years now (I've started with the borderposts version) and I must say there have been enough testing for that version.
Restore Balance has been the only deck I've played also, so I understand pretty well the difference between the two version. Whats new in the non-borderposts version is that you can also use cards like crashing footfalls, that give you a very good advantage and more consistency. The ability to use 1/2 cmc cards is also very important to help the consistency of the deck.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the borderposts version, but this one is better. For the first time in years I feel the deck is now very competitive. I've done alot of 3/0 at my FNM against tier 1 deck
If you feel like the lands cost too much, I invite you to think of the pain land and the fast land, as they don't cost too much in Izzet.
Feel free to ask me any question about the new Izzet version.
id also point out that karn happened to the border post version as he's basically a lattice lock by himself against us.
although adventure cards like Brazen Borrower and Merchant of the Vale do alot for the deck (early dig and disruption and later alt wincons while not taking up card in hand)
not to mention Emry, Lurker of the Loch, The Royal Scions
on a related note im looking to upgrade my border post version in to a free spells version and i need some advice on some core 20 cards and opinions on eldrain cards
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame: is her -2 that allows you to cast elecrodominace and Finale from the gy make this worth considering?
Thrill of Possibility? worth going back to a more gy direction with dreads horde arcanists?
I need some help with the sideboard because it looks so convoluted, and it feels like I'm just throwing cards in there.
The deck overall is great, though I have yet to test in an LGS. After playtesting it with my group, it's good against the current top decks but bad against decks fast decks like Burn, Spirits or Humans. Also bad against a Tron player who has prior info and plays Chalice for 0.
I need some help with the sideboard because it looks so convoluted, and it feels like I'm just throwing cards in there.
The deck overall is great, though I have yet to test in an LGS. After playtesting it with my group, it's good against the current top decks but bad against decks fast decks like Burn, Spirits or Humans. Also bad against a Tron player who has prior info and plays Chalice for 0.
Brazen Borrower is a very flex pick and good against chalice of the void, im testing 2 copies on my deck
This is the proper gameplan we should be on: Dump our hand, sac all lands with gargadon, then win fast after that. The sooner the better but maybe the slightly slower artifact version I listed is more resilient. Not sure. Another thing I try to achieve when I combo off is 0 card in hand. When hellbent and on 0 lands when I go off, the opponent really has very few outs.
One of the only 'clunky' cards I am including is Monastery Siege because its almost a must-counter spell because of the card advantage. Otherwise you get a much better chance at resolving your combo AND when you do combo off you also get something powerful to stick around.
A spicy sideboard card I came across is Venarian Glimmer. The turn before you combo off you EOT glimmer; hopefully stealing an answer, but at the very least getting information for ONE blue mana. Pretty dope card to check for shenanegans before you go off.
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Post 2
Fixed the second 'blue red' build. Non artifact mana doesnt work because you typically want gargadon on command, not waiting around for him.
Here are my updated lists and a 3rd 'black' version that I just made.
Has anyone tried out Lotus Field in the deck? Seems like an advanced borderpost that can't be hated on. It could be a good way to get the land count down without Gargadon/posts.
Has anyone tried out Lotus Field in the deck? Seems like an advanced borderpost that can't be hated on. It could be a good way to get the land count down without Gargadon/posts.
Is it winmore? Worth testing? Would we sacrifice too many cards in the deck to utilize it?
I personally feel that Lotus Field is a tad slow. I've been adamant on this thread I've only played the borderpost version (which I'll defend until I die). That said, producing 3 singular types of mana on 1 card now that the deck can go upwards of 3+ colors due to Electro is very slow. I feel that is a win more card because unless you're facing Ponza, not a lot of decks go for the destroy lands style of play. Often times keeping 2 mana up on T2 is better for those responses rather than spending a turn to develop this Lotus Field.
We're also a mid-range/control deck/combo. Funneling resources into finding just 1 land will hurt us. We aren't tron or scapeshift. We want to play the game out getting the most out of our Restore Balances. Wether that is by Opt, Serum Visions or Supreme Will we're trying to find our combo pieces asap that way we can control the board when we want to.
Those are my 2 cents.
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It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else.
I'm not sure I agree with you however. With a borderpost version on turns 1 and 2 you're trying to get your posts down, dig for pieces, and suspend Gargadon.
With a Lotus Field version, you're trying to search for Lotus Field, dig for pieces, and suspend Gargadon. It seems like the same kind of play to me. Post-balance posts are still susceptible to Force of Vigor. Lotus Field is pretty much untouchable.
In addition, we are able to just add Lotus Field to the deck and play it naturally. We don't have to go out of our way to find it every game. It's another tool that could be used to get the land count down when you can't find a Gargadon. The argument to be made here is that there's only a maximum of 4 Fields where you could have around 10-12 posts. But that begs the question, how is 4 Fields and let's say 3-4 Ancient Stirrings and 3-4 Once Upon a Time that much different than running posts?
Has anyone tried out Lotus Field in the deck? Seems like an advanced borderpost that can't be hated on. It could be a good way to get the land count down without Gargadon/posts.
Is it winmore? Worth testing? Would we sacrifice too many cards in the deck to utilize it?
The thing that makes lotus not worth it is the fact its still a land. Meaning you are giving them 1 land to work with when you resolve balance. And 2 lands when they drop a land instead of it being their first land.
Why not use artifacts instead? They stick around, and gargadon can eat them.
We need to do these things. This our main goal.
STEP 1.) Suspend Gargadon. Get him in our hand naturally or through tutoring like Eladamri's Call (best one avail right now) or something that requires more build around like Scheming Symmetry.
STEP 2.) Resolve a Balance before we die. Ideally they will have 0 cards in hand and 0 lands in play and 0 creatures in play at the end. Most 'clean' way to beat us if we combo off is with chip damage like bolt + mountain or something like plains + path to exile.
STEP 3.) Convert with gargadon before they can stabilize. Sometimes you'll have to attack a Liliana first, so they cant -2.
Steps 2 and 3 ideally happen either the same turn or very soon thereafter. To make this work IMO we need artifacts. It works well and is consistent. Mox opal, Arcum's astrolabe, Mishra's bauble; all god tier cards for this strategy. Signets are great but almost not even needed.
I just figured out we could run Codex Shredder (or similar cards theres a couple I think this one fits the best) + Scheming Symmetry. Unless they have instant speed draw we can kill the card they tutor. Then just use our derpy 1 mana Codex Shredders as fodder for Gargadon. Also helps enable Metalcraft for Opal.
We do need a lot of cards total, so card advantage things like Thoughtcast and Thirst for Knowledge might be needed for certain lists.
Im almost positive the best version of this list will include Eladamri's Call. Probably as 2 or more of.
It would be funny and amazing for us if they reprinted Gustha's Scepter. Lmao!
EDIT: Steps 1 and 2 can actually be done as far apart as needed. Some decks will not punish you well, so you can really afford to set up and make sure you put all the nails in their coffin before you balance+gargadon to end the game.
Thanks for the observations SunTzu. I do love the artifacts. The reason I don't like them in this list is the hate cards. Admittedly I have not tried the deck with Mox Opal and friends. Astrolabe and Bauble seem like they could really help out in the consistency department, and those won't typically get blown up by hate.
I think my interest in Lotus Field comes from games where I wasn't able to find Gargadon but was still required to Balance or lose the game. Field allows the deck a way to purge lands without needing posts. Sometimes there will be games where you have to balance to avoid dying and you won't be able to sac your lands to GG.
Eladamri's Call is a card I haven't tested at all. When I look at it, I'm thinking green white, ouch. We need double red for Electrodominance and we need blue for As Foretold. Do you have any troubles playing Call when you have Astrolabe/Opal/Glimmervoid? I like the Call but honestly I would rather play Once Upon a Time.
I've always wanted to find a way to slot Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge/Field of Ruin into the deck. In the cascade version I played the most of, the hardest thing I had to deal with was Liliana of the Veil, and manlands. With Expedition Map and some of the other land searchers I would feel good playing 1-2 copies of a land killer.
Honestly I would rather a modern print of Zuran Orb over the Scepter. That's just wishful thinking though.
Thanks for the observations SunTzu. I do love the artifacts. The reason I don't like them in this list is the hate cards. Admittedly I have not tried the deck with Mox Opal and friends. Astrolabe and Bauble seem like they could really help out in the consistency department, and those won't typically get blown up by hate.
I think my interest in Lotus Field comes from games where I wasn't able to find Gargadon but was still required to Balance or lose the game. Field allows the deck a way to purge lands without needing posts. Sometimes there will be games where you have to balance to avoid dying and you won't be able to sac your lands to GG.
Eladamri's Call is a card I haven't tested at all. When I look at it, I'm thinking green white, ouch. We need double red for Electrodominance and we need blue for As Foretold. Do you have any troubles playing Call when you have Astrolabe/Opal/Glimmervoid? I like the Call but honestly I would rather play Once Upon a Time.
I've always wanted to find a way to slot Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge/Field of Ruin into the deck. In the cascade version I played the most of, the hardest thing I had to deal with was Liliana of the Veil, and manlands. With Expedition Map and some of the other land searchers I would feel good playing 1-2 copies of a land killer.
Honestly I would rather a modern print of Zuran Orb over the Scepter. That's just wishful thinking though.
I would be surprised if non-artifacts was the 'best' version. Artifacts just fit wayyy too well into our gameplan. They stick around past a balance and can enable gargadon basically almost on-command with relative ease.
As for eladamri's call, I def know the mana sucks. Im almost jamming green AND white for the inclusion of the card. That said, so. damn. worth. it. Its our step 1, essentially. Since without gargadon we do nothing and die post balance. Getting our garg suspended is super important, and doing it early is important; too. Ideally if we can suspend early some of our suspend counters will come off naturally and not require artifacts. When you build around this card its honestly not hard to get green white even in a shell that doesn't use green OR white for anything else. You have lots of options between moxes, glimmervoid, that other artifact-multicolored land (forget the name right now), astrolabe.. chromatic sphere, etc. Oh, and sylesnia signet can just get you there for 1 mana of any color. I have never had trouble casting eladamris call, even once. Once upon a time is great and all but dig 5 versus just go find what you need, instant speed; is a huge difference. Eladamri's call does EXACTLY what you need at instant speed, every single time. Once isn't even a guaranteed card. Might be worth testing but if you can run 1 idk why you wouldn't just run the other instead.
One card I did think about was Treasure Map. Probably too slow against all 'unfair' combo decks, but it does give you FOUR things for gargadon to eat for just ONE card. Which is basically unheard of. That said, I havent really looked. Other thing that comes to mind is Kuldotha rebirth and even that is just plus 1 (rebirth itself and 1 more artifact start you at -2 but you get 3 tokens so you net one. So rebirth is much much worse than map, albeit 'faster'. Rebirth.. prob not worth it. Map, might actually work in some lists that REALLY need more things to feed gargadon. Not sure.
The worst 'hate' card against us is Karn, to shut off our artifacts then drop mycosynth to lock us.
I use 4 nature's claim and usually more than just this for this card. Its basically a must-have for our SB. Assassin's trophy is nice as well.
You might be right about needing things for tron lands. I lost my last tron matchup and he let me try 2 of my lists and I lost both. Tron is just a tiny bit faster, unfortunately. At least; with where my list was at at the time. My black list has improved a lot since it was pretty rough at the start. Still not sure what list is the best. Likely not the black one. Black one is more cute than consistent lol.
One thing I've started running in my SB is Imprisoned in the Moon for those pesky planeswalkers. It gives them a basic colorless land which then can be later swept away via Restore balance. I run the outdated Borderpost list of UWR.
I've found I can rush Tron pretty well unless they land a planeswalker.
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It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else.
Nice find with Imprisoned. I'll have to try it since its great against all of their threats. Wurmcoil by itself is gross vs us. This hits wurmcoil as well.
BTW do you guys think many of the Karn + mycosynth lock decks use more than 1 mycosynth? Because if so, we can just murder the mycosynth and they cant lock us out with it. Hitting Karn is always nice, too.
I do have to agree, I like Imprisoned in the Moon. Helps against walkers, stuff like Wurmcoil which can be problematic post-Balance, and it also hits lands. Good find.
I'll have to try out the Call as well. Being able to find GG consistently could do wonders for the deck. I am concerned though with the color requirements. Having Eladamri's Call in the deck and also having Assassin's Trophy in the board essentially means we must have access to all 5 colors. Not an easy feat sometimes.
So, we have about 20 cards for the Balance package. We also need about 20 lands, some interaction to slow the opponent down, and enough threats where we can close games out quickly post-Balance. Is there maybe something we're missing for the other 20 cards? Creatures don't really work well unless we can remove them instantly. Walkers are great but they're really vulnerable pre-Balance. Are there any artifacts or enchantments that must be dealt with? I know Blood Moon is a card and some decks instantly fold to it. Chalice of the Void can have similar effects on certain decks. The problem is with a list running both Call and Trophy, we don't want to be playing Moon. Chalice hurts us on pretty much any CMC besides 1.
Balance is a powerful card and in modern we can pretty much exploit every aspect of it. Finishing the game up after we Balance though is something I think the deck needs work on. If you don't have the GG suspended you're basically durdling until a threat comes along. Way back when I was playing with posts I used Thassa, God of the Sea combined with some of the Swords. Devotion worked well with the blue posts and I also used Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to close games out. It seemed like the threat density was high enough that even if I wasn't able to Balance due to a well timed counter or couldn't find a cascade spell, I was still able to compete with the rest of the deck.
Right now when I play with the new version I feel like something's lacking, but I can't quite pinpoint what it is. Without Balance we're pretty much slower than any deck out there. With Field at least we'd be able to load up on some bigger threats and actually be able to play them quickly post-Balance. I've also considered a Crucible of Worlds strategy where you use Ghost Quarter post-Balance as a Strip Mine.
EDIT: I do believe most lists running the Karn lock only run one Lattice. The thing is, if you can't float mana to destroy it once it lands, you're still screwed. It's easy for Tron lists to get to 10 mana and then they play Karn, fetch Lattice and it's GG. Sometimes you won't know it's coming until they get to 10 mana. That could be on turn 4 if they're lucky. Since we don't play any early threats they don't have a lot to worry about when playing us.
Heres is the thing. I've played Thassa mainboard as 2x, but she was very slow. Because I personally run so many x/U permanents, she becomes a creature after a while and then messes up our Restore balance. I replaced her with 2 Gideon of the Trials and then ran 2 Monastery Siege to replace her scry effect.
I also like to think of this deck as a control/combo deck. We set our pieces up, and control our opponents through the fear of our combo. Whereas other combo decks kill you, we just reset your board state every time.
As far as cards like Bloon Moon and Chalice goes, I run Wear // Tear as a 4x since I play the post version and I'm more scared of Chalice. If you play the Electrodomanice version then you're more fearful of Blood Moon, but you can easily play around it with fetches.
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It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else.
Heres is the thing. I've played Thassa mainboard as 2x, but she was very slow. Because I personally run so many x/U permanents, she becomes a creature after a while and then messes up our Restore balance. I replaced her with 2 Gideon of the Trials and then ran 2 Monastery Siege to replace her scry effect.
I also like to think of this deck as a control/combo deck. We set our pieces up, and control our opponents through the fear of our combo. Whereas other combo decks kill you, we just reset your board state every time.
As far as cards like Bloon Moon and Chalice goes, I run Wear // Tear as a 4x since I play the post version and I'm more scared of Chalice. If you play the Electrodomanice version then you're more fearful of Blood Moon, but you can easily play around it with fetches.
And with artifacts you never really have to worry about blood moon. Only Karn is scary. And you have 4+ sb slots for him.
Def can vouch for monastery siege. Super strong card. Very well might be worth it. Im trying without right now but I might need to go back.
So my black list is updated a little bit. Kind of fun to play now. Probably the most random/hilarious deck Ive ever made.
I could potentially not use eladamri's but its really not that hard to just jam it with good artifacts. Arcums and Mox make it ez pz. Or treasure, or chromatic star. Or glimmervoid.
That said, without; I could use more draw instead and have a little more room to work with my lands.
@TheGreatGodLoki - Are you running a cascade package to cast Balance? The way you've worded your reply makes me think you're not running Electrodominance and As Foretold. Also, have you ever used Gideon's bottom 0 ability so you can't lose the game? Seems kinda fringe but I like it. Typically I would assume Gideon just acts as a 4-5 turn clock once you Balance. I don't think it's the best option myself but he seems ok.
Would you mind posting your list?
@SunTzu - Your list seems like it has a lot going on. I'm not sure I like Scheming Symmetry+Codex Shredder here. If they know you have Codex they're just going to pick a card they don't want. Symmetry isn't really good without Codex, and Codex isn't really doing anything if you don't have Symmetry. I think the 8 slots could be better used for threats myself. It's cool, but definitely not game winning. If you want more draw you could always add Ancestral Vision.
You only have Gargadon as a wincon. Sure you can tutor for it with Call or Symmetry but in the end if someone plays Lost Legacy on you then you just fold. You can't win without Gargadon. Pretty much every modern deck has cards that must be dealt with or you lose. We have to be the same if we want to be competitive. Balance is strong but it doesn't win the game on it's own.
I think I may consider an artifact package with Crucible of Worlds+Ghost Quarter. Post-balance it provides a pretty good lock to keep them from getting back in the game. It may be too cute and Ajani Vengeant might just be better. I'm still concerned with threat density. I haven't had much time for mtg lately so I'm going to keep thinking on it and I'll see if anything comes up when I'm randomly daydreaming about mtg
Playing this deck, cascade version, recently, I'm quite interested in the spoils of Theros.
I saw a common card there that I find really powerful after having tested it a bit:
Omen of the sea
1U
Enchantment
Flash
Scry 2 then draw 1
2U, sacrifice Omen : Scry 2
A instant Preordain to 2 mana which scry again for 3 mana.
It is a pity that the second scry is paying because it would be ideal after a Libra with 0 cards in hand, 0 terrain and 0 creatures (no bad draw in the next round).
What do you think? It's not broken like preordain but, in my opinion, is fairly strong anyway.
@TheGreatGodLoki - Are you running a cascade package to cast Balance? The way you've worded your reply makes me think you're not running Electrodominance and As Foretold. Also, have you ever used Gideon's bottom 0 ability so you can't lose the game? Seems kinda fringe but I like it. Typically I would assume Gideon just acts as a 4-5 turn clock once you Balance. I don't think it's the best option myself but he seems ok.
Would you mind posting your list?
@SunTzu - Your list seems like it has a lot going on. I'm not sure I like Scheming Symmetry+Codex Shredder here. If they know you have Codex they're just going to pick a card they don't want. Symmetry isn't really good without Codex, and Codex isn't really doing anything if you don't have Symmetry. I think the 8 slots could be better used for threats myself. It's cool, but definitely not game winning. If you want more draw you could always add Ancestral Vision.
You only have Gargadon as a wincon. Sure you can tutor for it with Call or Symmetry but in the end if someone plays Lost Legacy on you then you just fold. You can't win without Gargadon. Pretty much every modern deck has cards that must be dealt with or you lose. We have to be the same if we want to be competitive. Balance is strong but it doesn't win the game on it's own.
I think I may consider an artifact package with Crucible of Worlds+Ghost Quarter. Post-balance it provides a pretty good lock to keep them from getting back in the game. It may be too cute and Ajani Vengeant might just be better. I'm still concerned with threat density. I haven't had much time for mtg lately so I'm going to keep thinking on it and I'll see if anything comes up when I'm randomly daydreaming about mtg
Viking trust me Scheming + Codex is both good and hilarious. And yes, I do only have gargadon to win but unless they do something like exile them all from my deck with some hate card It will be fine. Lost legacy isnt really a card that is played a lot, is it? Maybe blue black or other black control decks would run it, IDK. Theres a lot of decks to SB against and only 15 sb slots so..
The reason I use Scheming is to go get the exact combo piece that I need and be 1 step closer to just outright winning, basically. I either get gargadon if I dont have it (rare since I have 4 garg 2 eladamri's and draw) or the balance, or some balance-enabler. Keep in mind our options for tutors are limited. Our options for cheap tutors are even more limited. 4 scheming 4 codex seems like a lot, but really its just another thing for gargadon to eat that only costs 1 mana and enables metalcraft. The 5 mana ability of codex could come in handy in the late game, too. The only downside to this, really; is things that they WANT you to put in the graveyard. Something to be wary of but still kind of a niche thing as far as I know.
Once you hit the full combo you just win. Their outs are super limited at that point because gargadon isnt even in play when they lose all their lands AND all their cards in hand AND all their creatures. Then you get a 9 power 'clock' to chomp them down in very few turns.
BTW Im really liking Treasure map with artifacts lists. 4 garg 'food' is great on 1 card. 4 might be too many, 2 prob the lowest I would play if youre running any at all. And if you run 4 you might as well throw in manifold key or voltaic key.
As for ancestral, Idk about that card to be honest. Sometimes we don't have the as foretold in play so we have to use maybe our only way to cast balance to draw 3, or wait for soo long. I normally don't include it into my lists for how clunky it is.
Restore Balance has been the only deck I've played also, so I understand pretty well the difference between the two version. Whats new in the non-borderposts version is that you can also use cards like crashing footfalls, that give you a very good advantage and more consistency. The ability to use 1/2 cmc cards is also very important to help the consistency of the deck.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the borderposts version, but this one is better. For the first time in years I feel the deck is now very competitive. I've done alot of 3/0 at my FNM against tier 1 deck
If you feel like the lands cost too much, I invite you to think of the pain land and the fast land, as they don't cost too much in Izzet.
Feel free to ask me any question about the new Izzet version.
although adventure cards like Brazen Borrower and Merchant of the Vale do alot for the deck (early dig and disruption and later alt wincons while not taking up card in hand)
not to mention Emry, Lurker of the Loch, The Royal Scions
on a related note im looking to upgrade my border post version in to a free spells version and i need some advice on some core 20 cards and opinions on eldrain cards
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame: is her -2 that allows you to cast elecrodominace and Finale from the gy make this worth considering?
Thrill of Possibility? worth going back to a more gy direction with dreads horde arcanists?
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
3 Greater Gargadon
Enablers
4 Electrodominance
4 As Foretold
2 Collected Conjuring
1 Finale of Promise
Free Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Crashing Footfalls
4 Restore Balance
Other Spells
4 Opt
2 Serum Visions
3 Mana Leak
2 Abrade
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Steam Vents
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Fiery Islet
3 Island
3 Mountain
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Dragon's Claw
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Abrade
1 Negate
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Fry
I need some help with the sideboard because it looks so convoluted, and it feels like I'm just throwing cards in there.
The deck overall is great, though I have yet to test in an LGS. After playtesting it with my group, it's good against the current top decks but bad against decks fast decks like Burn, Spirits or Humans. Also bad against a Tron player who has prior info and plays Chalice for 0.
Brazen Borrower is a very flex pick and good against chalice of the void, im testing 2 copies on my deck
Here is my list. I used to post as Jose Raul Capablanca but I got my old nick back so I should use this account from now on
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Selesnya Signet
2 Talisman of Creativity
2 Talisman of Unity
2 Azorius Signet
3 Eladamri's Call
4 Greater Gargadon
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Monastery Siege
4 As Foretold
3 Electrodominance
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
4 Spire of Industry
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
4 Restore Balance
2 Defense Grid
1 Electrodominance
3 Nature's Claim
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Crashing Footfalls
1 Finale of Promise
This is the proper gameplan we should be on: Dump our hand, sac all lands with gargadon, then win fast after that. The sooner the better but maybe the slightly slower artifact version I listed is more resilient. Not sure. Another thing I try to achieve when I combo off is 0 card in hand. When hellbent and on 0 lands when I go off, the opponent really has very few outs.
One of the only 'clunky' cards I am including is Monastery Siege because its almost a must-counter spell because of the card advantage. Otherwise you get a much better chance at resolving your combo AND when you do combo off you also get something powerful to stick around.
A spicy sideboard card I came across is Venarian Glimmer. The turn before you combo off you EOT glimmer; hopefully stealing an answer, but at the very least getting information for ONE blue mana. Pretty dope card to check for shenanegans before you go off.
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Post 2
Fixed the second 'blue red' build. Non artifact mana doesnt work because you typically want gargadon on command, not waiting around for him.
Here are my updated lists and a 3rd 'black' version that I just made.
Black Version:
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Chromatic Star
2 Rakdos Signet
4 Restore Balance
4 Greater Gargadon
4 As Foretold
4 Electrodominance
2 Quicken
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolaria West
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Fiery Islet
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Mastermind's Acquisition
2 Defense Grid
4 Nature's Claim
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Settle the Wreckage
1 Quicken
2 Finale of Promise
Multicolor:
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Talisman of Creativity
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
3 Selesnya Signet
4 Restore Balance
4 Greater Gargadon
4 As Foretold
4 Electrodominance
3 Eladamri's Call
4 Manamorphose
2 Peer Through Depths
4 Glimmervoid
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Tolaria West
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Nature's Claim
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Venarian Glimmer
2 Remand
1 Finale of Promise
Blue red:
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Talisman of Creativity
4 Greater Gargadon
4 As Foretold
3 Electrodominance
4 Manamorphose
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Peer Through Depths
2 Snow-Covered Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
2 Tolaria West
4 Restore Balance
4 Force of Negation
1 Repeal
1 Remand
2 Venarian Glimmer
1 Into the Roil
4 Nature's Claim
1 Electrodominance
1 Finale of Promise
If you're willing to pick one of those deck versions, I'd be willing to help you edit it a bit more.
Turn 1&2 play lands, turn 3 tap both lands then play Lotus Field and Electrodominance->Restore Balance. Turn 4 slam down Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Nahiri, the Harbinger or something else that makes the opponents life rough. Also should note that it can search with Tolaria West by itself right after a balance which could possibly be relevant after As Foretold is on the board.
Could run Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, or Ancient Stirrings to insure that we can actually get the Field in our hand.
Is it winmore? Worth testing? Would we sacrifice too many cards in the deck to utilize it?
I personally feel that Lotus Field is a tad slow. I've been adamant on this thread I've only played the borderpost version (which I'll defend until I die). That said, producing 3 singular types of mana on 1 card now that the deck can go upwards of 3+ colors due to Electro is very slow. I feel that is a win more card because unless you're facing Ponza, not a lot of decks go for the destroy lands style of play. Often times keeping 2 mana up on T2 is better for those responses rather than spending a turn to develop this Lotus Field.
We're also a mid-range/control deck/combo. Funneling resources into finding just 1 land will hurt us. We aren't tron or scapeshift. We want to play the game out getting the most out of our Restore Balances. Wether that is by Opt, Serum Visions or Supreme Will we're trying to find our combo pieces asap that way we can control the board when we want to.
Those are my 2 cents.
I'm not sure I agree with you however. With a borderpost version on turns 1 and 2 you're trying to get your posts down, dig for pieces, and suspend Gargadon.
With a Lotus Field version, you're trying to search for Lotus Field, dig for pieces, and suspend Gargadon. It seems like the same kind of play to me. Post-balance posts are still susceptible to Force of Vigor. Lotus Field is pretty much untouchable.
In addition, we are able to just add Lotus Field to the deck and play it naturally. We don't have to go out of our way to find it every game. It's another tool that could be used to get the land count down when you can't find a Gargadon. The argument to be made here is that there's only a maximum of 4 Fields where you could have around 10-12 posts. But that begs the question, how is 4 Fields and let's say 3-4 Ancient Stirrings and 3-4 Once Upon a Time that much different than running posts?
I have played the borderpost version a lot, both in FNM and online. While I do really enjoy it, Karn, the Great Creator, Force of Vigor, Collector Ouphe, and Stony Silence make it really tough on us if they play any of them.
Here's a list I'm thinking about messing around with:
4x Electrodominance
4x As Foretold
4x Restore Balance
4x Ancestral Vision
Dig/Fixing:
3x Ancient Stirrings
3x Once Upon a Time
4x Arcum's Astrolabe
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Expedition Map
4x Greater Gargadon
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Land:
4x Lotus Field
3x Botanical Sanctum
3x Copperline Gorge
3x Spirebluff Canal
2x Tolaria West
1x Snow-covered Island
1x Snow-covered Mountain
1x Snow-covered Forest
Just a rough draft right now so no sideboard yet. Thoughts?
The thing that makes lotus not worth it is the fact its still a land. Meaning you are giving them 1 land to work with when you resolve balance. And 2 lands when they drop a land instead of it being their first land.
Why not use artifacts instead? They stick around, and gargadon can eat them.
We need to do these things. This our main goal.
STEP 1.) Suspend Gargadon. Get him in our hand naturally or through tutoring like Eladamri's Call (best one avail right now) or something that requires more build around like Scheming Symmetry.
STEP 2.) Resolve a Balance before we die. Ideally they will have 0 cards in hand and 0 lands in play and 0 creatures in play at the end. Most 'clean' way to beat us if we combo off is with chip damage like bolt + mountain or something like plains + path to exile.
STEP 3.) Convert with gargadon before they can stabilize. Sometimes you'll have to attack a Liliana first, so they cant -2.
Steps 2 and 3 ideally happen either the same turn or very soon thereafter. To make this work IMO we need artifacts. It works well and is consistent. Mox opal, Arcum's astrolabe, Mishra's bauble; all god tier cards for this strategy. Signets are great but almost not even needed.
I just figured out we could run Codex Shredder (or similar cards theres a couple I think this one fits the best) + Scheming Symmetry. Unless they have instant speed draw we can kill the card they tutor. Then just use our derpy 1 mana Codex Shredders as fodder for Gargadon. Also helps enable Metalcraft for Opal.
We do need a lot of cards total, so card advantage things like Thoughtcast and Thirst for Knowledge might be needed for certain lists.
Im almost positive the best version of this list will include Eladamri's Call. Probably as 2 or more of.
It would be funny and amazing for us if they reprinted Gustha's Scepter. Lmao!
EDIT: Steps 1 and 2 can actually be done as far apart as needed. Some decks will not punish you well, so you can really afford to set up and make sure you put all the nails in their coffin before you balance+gargadon to end the game.
I think my interest in Lotus Field comes from games where I wasn't able to find Gargadon but was still required to Balance or lose the game. Field allows the deck a way to purge lands without needing posts. Sometimes there will be games where you have to balance to avoid dying and you won't be able to sac your lands to GG.
Eladamri's Call is a card I haven't tested at all. When I look at it, I'm thinking green white, ouch. We need double red for Electrodominance and we need blue for As Foretold. Do you have any troubles playing Call when you have Astrolabe/Opal/Glimmervoid? I like the Call but honestly I would rather play Once Upon a Time.
I've always wanted to find a way to slot Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge/Field of Ruin into the deck. In the cascade version I played the most of, the hardest thing I had to deal with was Liliana of the Veil, and manlands. With Expedition Map and some of the other land searchers I would feel good playing 1-2 copies of a land killer.
Honestly I would rather a modern print of Zuran Orb over the Scepter. That's just wishful thinking though.
I would be surprised if non-artifacts was the 'best' version. Artifacts just fit wayyy too well into our gameplan. They stick around past a balance and can enable gargadon basically almost on-command with relative ease.
As for eladamri's call, I def know the mana sucks. Im almost jamming green AND white for the inclusion of the card. That said, so. damn. worth. it. Its our step 1, essentially. Since without gargadon we do nothing and die post balance. Getting our garg suspended is super important, and doing it early is important; too. Ideally if we can suspend early some of our suspend counters will come off naturally and not require artifacts. When you build around this card its honestly not hard to get green white even in a shell that doesn't use green OR white for anything else. You have lots of options between moxes, glimmervoid, that other artifact-multicolored land (forget the name right now), astrolabe.. chromatic sphere, etc. Oh, and sylesnia signet can just get you there for 1 mana of any color. I have never had trouble casting eladamris call, even once. Once upon a time is great and all but dig 5 versus just go find what you need, instant speed; is a huge difference. Eladamri's call does EXACTLY what you need at instant speed, every single time. Once isn't even a guaranteed card. Might be worth testing but if you can run 1 idk why you wouldn't just run the other instead.
One card I did think about was Treasure Map. Probably too slow against all 'unfair' combo decks, but it does give you FOUR things for gargadon to eat for just ONE card. Which is basically unheard of. That said, I havent really looked. Other thing that comes to mind is Kuldotha rebirth and even that is just plus 1 (rebirth itself and 1 more artifact start you at -2 but you get 3 tokens so you net one. So rebirth is much much worse than map, albeit 'faster'. Rebirth.. prob not worth it. Map, might actually work in some lists that REALLY need more things to feed gargadon. Not sure.
The worst 'hate' card against us is Karn, to shut off our artifacts then drop mycosynth to lock us.
I use 4 nature's claim and usually more than just this for this card. Its basically a must-have for our SB. Assassin's trophy is nice as well.
You might be right about needing things for tron lands. I lost my last tron matchup and he let me try 2 of my lists and I lost both. Tron is just a tiny bit faster, unfortunately. At least; with where my list was at at the time. My black list has improved a lot since it was pretty rough at the start. Still not sure what list is the best. Likely not the black one. Black one is more cute than consistent lol.
I've found I can rush Tron pretty well unless they land a planeswalker.
BTW do you guys think many of the Karn + mycosynth lock decks use more than 1 mycosynth? Because if so, we can just murder the mycosynth and they cant lock us out with it. Hitting Karn is always nice, too.
I'll have to try out the Call as well. Being able to find GG consistently could do wonders for the deck. I am concerned though with the color requirements. Having Eladamri's Call in the deck and also having Assassin's Trophy in the board essentially means we must have access to all 5 colors. Not an easy feat sometimes.
So, we have about 20 cards for the Balance package. We also need about 20 lands, some interaction to slow the opponent down, and enough threats where we can close games out quickly post-Balance. Is there maybe something we're missing for the other 20 cards? Creatures don't really work well unless we can remove them instantly. Walkers are great but they're really vulnerable pre-Balance. Are there any artifacts or enchantments that must be dealt with? I know Blood Moon is a card and some decks instantly fold to it. Chalice of the Void can have similar effects on certain decks. The problem is with a list running both Call and Trophy, we don't want to be playing Moon. Chalice hurts us on pretty much any CMC besides 1.
Balance is a powerful card and in modern we can pretty much exploit every aspect of it. Finishing the game up after we Balance though is something I think the deck needs work on. If you don't have the GG suspended you're basically durdling until a threat comes along. Way back when I was playing with posts I used Thassa, God of the Sea combined with some of the Swords. Devotion worked well with the blue posts and I also used Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to close games out. It seemed like the threat density was high enough that even if I wasn't able to Balance due to a well timed counter or couldn't find a cascade spell, I was still able to compete with the rest of the deck.
Right now when I play with the new version I feel like something's lacking, but I can't quite pinpoint what it is. Without Balance we're pretty much slower than any deck out there. With Field at least we'd be able to load up on some bigger threats and actually be able to play them quickly post-Balance. I've also considered a Crucible of Worlds strategy where you use Ghost Quarter post-Balance as a Strip Mine.
EDIT: I do believe most lists running the Karn lock only run one Lattice. The thing is, if you can't float mana to destroy it once it lands, you're still screwed. It's easy for Tron lists to get to 10 mana and then they play Karn, fetch Lattice and it's GG. Sometimes you won't know it's coming until they get to 10 mana. That could be on turn 4 if they're lucky. Since we don't play any early threats they don't have a lot to worry about when playing us.
I also like to think of this deck as a control/combo deck. We set our pieces up, and control our opponents through the fear of our combo. Whereas other combo decks kill you, we just reset your board state every time.
As far as cards like Bloon Moon and Chalice goes, I run Wear // Tear as a 4x since I play the post version and I'm more scared of Chalice. If you play the Electrodomanice version then you're more fearful of Blood Moon, but you can easily play around it with fetches.
And with artifacts you never really have to worry about blood moon. Only Karn is scary. And you have 4+ sb slots for him.
Def can vouch for monastery siege. Super strong card. Very well might be worth it. Im trying without right now but I might need to go back.
So my black list is updated a little bit. Kind of fun to play now. Probably the most random/hilarious deck Ive ever made.
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Codex Shredder
3 Treasure Map
1 Chromatic Star
4 Greater Gargadon
2 As Foretold
4 Electrodominance
4 Restore Balance
4 Scheming Symmetry
2 Thoughtcast
1 Monastery Siege
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolaria West
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Defense Grid
1 As Foretold
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
4 Nature's Claim
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Finale of Promise
I could potentially not use eladamri's but its really not that hard to just jam it with good artifacts. Arcums and Mox make it ez pz. Or treasure, or chromatic star. Or glimmervoid.
That said, without; I could use more draw instead and have a little more room to work with my lands.
Would you mind posting your list?
@SunTzu - Your list seems like it has a lot going on. I'm not sure I like Scheming Symmetry+Codex Shredder here. If they know you have Codex they're just going to pick a card they don't want. Symmetry isn't really good without Codex, and Codex isn't really doing anything if you don't have Symmetry. I think the 8 slots could be better used for threats myself. It's cool, but definitely not game winning. If you want more draw you could always add Ancestral Vision.
You only have Gargadon as a wincon. Sure you can tutor for it with Call or Symmetry but in the end if someone plays Lost Legacy on you then you just fold. You can't win without Gargadon. Pretty much every modern deck has cards that must be dealt with or you lose. We have to be the same if we want to be competitive. Balance is strong but it doesn't win the game on it's own.
I think I may consider an artifact package with Crucible of Worlds+Ghost Quarter. Post-balance it provides a pretty good lock to keep them from getting back in the game. It may be too cute and Ajani Vengeant might just be better. I'm still concerned with threat density. I haven't had much time for mtg lately so I'm going to keep thinking on it and I'll see if anything comes up when I'm randomly daydreaming about mtg
Playing this deck, cascade version, recently, I'm quite interested in the spoils of Theros.
I saw a common card there that I find really powerful after having tested it a bit:
Omen of the sea
1U
Enchantment
Flash
Scry 2 then draw 1
2U, sacrifice Omen : Scry 2
A instant Preordain to 2 mana which scry again for 3 mana.
It is a pity that the second scry is paying because it would be ideal after a Libra with 0 cards in hand, 0 terrain and 0 creatures (no bad draw in the next round).
What do you think? It's not broken like preordain but, in my opinion, is fairly strong anyway.
Viking trust me Scheming + Codex is both good and hilarious. And yes, I do only have gargadon to win but unless they do something like exile them all from my deck with some hate card It will be fine. Lost legacy isnt really a card that is played a lot, is it? Maybe blue black or other black control decks would run it, IDK. Theres a lot of decks to SB against and only 15 sb slots so..
The reason I use Scheming is to go get the exact combo piece that I need and be 1 step closer to just outright winning, basically. I either get gargadon if I dont have it (rare since I have 4 garg 2 eladamri's and draw) or the balance, or some balance-enabler. Keep in mind our options for tutors are limited. Our options for cheap tutors are even more limited. 4 scheming 4 codex seems like a lot, but really its just another thing for gargadon to eat that only costs 1 mana and enables metalcraft. The 5 mana ability of codex could come in handy in the late game, too. The only downside to this, really; is things that they WANT you to put in the graveyard. Something to be wary of but still kind of a niche thing as far as I know.
Once you hit the full combo you just win. Their outs are super limited at that point because gargadon isnt even in play when they lose all their lands AND all their cards in hand AND all their creatures. Then you get a 9 power 'clock' to chomp them down in very few turns.
BTW Im really liking Treasure map with artifacts lists. 4 garg 'food' is great on 1 card. 4 might be too many, 2 prob the lowest I would play if youre running any at all. And if you run 4 you might as well throw in manifold key or voltaic key.
As for ancestral, Idk about that card to be honest. Sometimes we don't have the as foretold in play so we have to use maybe our only way to cast balance to draw 3, or wait for soo long. I normally don't include it into my lists for how clunky it is.