I haven't tested Koth at all, but I can't imagine many scenarios where he's better, and I can imagine a ton where he's much worse.
No offense, but if you haven't tested it why weight in on if its bad or good?
IMO it's perfectly acceptable to weigh in on the discussion with the caveat that I haven't tested it. You don't have to test every card to determine whether or not it is a good fit for this deck. For example, if someone asked whether we should run Rampant Growth, you could easily say "I haven't tested it but it compared unfavorably to Farseek".
Besides, you gave the exact same answer I did (doesn't protect itself, +1 is irrelevant). Clearly I don't need to test it to come the same conclusion you did after testing ;-)
I am playing in Las Vegas, but I am still torn between decks.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Not picking on you specifically, but in other forums a lot of innovation and discussion is hampered by
A. Person A suggests a card/ask if it was tested
B. Persons B-Z add opinion without testing.
Merfolk was notorious for this, and the phrase "Not what Fish wants to do" is sort of coined for that. Its a slippery slope and this forum is even guilty of it sometimes. Just be mindful, is all I'm saying.
As for Vegas, the Reddit /r/Scapeshift sub is doing a meetup, and I was going to extend it to this and the RUG threads if there was interest.
Not picking on you specifically, but in other forums a lot of innovation and discussion is hampered by
A. Person A suggests a card/ask if it was tested
B. Persons B-Z add opinion without testing.
Merfolk was notorious for this, and the phrase "Not what Fish wants to do" is sort of coined for that. Its a slippery slope and this forum is even guilty of it sometimes. Just be mindful, is all I'm saying.
As for Vegas, the Reddit /r/Scapeshift sub is doing a meetup, and I was going to extend it to this and the RUG threads if there was interest.
That makes sense. In my opinion, the issue does not come from persons B-Z adding their opinion without testing but rather person's B-Z making generic statements like the one you quoted: "not what Fish wants to do". That's not a helpful analysis.
My opinion of Koth was based on a direct comparison to Chandra, a card that is often used in Titan Shift.
But your point is good and valid. I will try to make sure I don't automatically dismiss a card without solid logic, especially comparison to other cards (i.e. Rampant Growth < Farseek).
To OP's question, consider Tireless Tracker instead of Koth in those flex slots. Both Koth and Tracker come down turn 3, both end the game if unanswered, and both die easily. Tracker can't be stopped with Stubborn Denial, doesn't expose your most valuable resource (lands) to death by Push, and it will often draw you 2+ cards on its way out.
As for Vegas, the Reddit /r/Scapeshift sub is doing a meetup, and I was going to extend it to this and the RUG threads if there was interest.
I'm down. I am going with a bunch of people and playing in all 3 GPs (hopefully not if I find some success), but I can stray away for a while. Wednesday night would probably be a good time as well.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I was hoping to judge the modern GP, but I was still trying to figure out when I needed to help my parents move when applications close. I couldn't afford to go play the event
For chandra, it basically comes down to if you believe her 4 damage kills anything relevant in the meta. With a bunch of x/5 popping up in Grixis DS, or decks that just go wide, she is likely not the best MD card. She also does not do much against combo match up, where she is no better than a ramp spell. (you go from 2-4-7 mana vs 2-4-6 with ramp. However it doesn't increase your land count, which make it no good with scapeshift)
All in all, Chandra is a fine card, but likely a sb option for now, until the meta shifted IMO.
We can agree on Tireless tracker. We're easily the best Tracker deck in modern.
I had a game last night against Grixis control (no DS) where I wanted to sandbag a KHE for a few turns until I could land a Tracker. The tracker resolved and then got bolted, but I was able to get 3 Clues off it immediately.
As for the GP meetup, if you're planning on attending the GP and are interested in attending fill out the survey in the Reddit thread (don't need a Reddit account)
I would have thought that title would go to Knightfall as they hit it off of company or drop it on turn two after a manadork and start getting value quicker. But, that conversation is irrelevant.
I have yet to try Tracker in this list, but it has done good things for me in other formats and it's definitely a card that will win the game if it goes unanswered.
I would have thought that title would go to Knightfall as they hit it off of company or drop it on turn two after a manadork and start getting value quicker. But, that conversation is irrelevant.
I have yet to try Tracker in this list, but it has done good things for me in other formats and it's definitely a card that will win the game if it goes unanswered.
I feel like Knightfall (which I don't know the deck well) and even Abzan Company with a 1-2 of after SB are pretty close to the best Tracker deck, but Titanshift may take that title since the removal needed for him is taken out against Titanshift because it does nothing against our other creatures.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I would have thought that title would go to Knightfall as they hit it off of company or drop it on turn two after a manadork and start getting value quicker. But, that conversation is irrelevant.
I have yet to try Tracker in this list, but it has done good things for me in other formats and it's definitely a card that will win the game if it goes unanswered.
I feel like Knightfall (which I don't know the deck well) and even Abzan Company with a 1-2 of after SB are pretty close to the best Tracker deck, but Titanshift may take that title since the removal needed for him is taken out against Titanshift because it does nothing against our other creatures.
We also have significantly more mana to pop the clues, plus a ton more lands and ways of searching for lands. It's close between those 3, but I am sure enjoying them in the Titan Shift sideboard!
Well, I went undefeated at FNM tonight and I saw a lot of Chandra, so colour me convinced. She saved my bacon a couple of times - once by landing and then ramping me up to Titan mana (when I had two Titans in hand) and once by drawing me into more cards. She also killed a couple of annoying dorks on the ground, which was nice.
I'm going to have to get some Wood Elves. They seem to be mighty decent.
Also, I went 4-0 despite punting badly a couple of times, so make of that what you will.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Well, I went undefeated at FNM tonight and I saw a lot of Chandra, so colour me convinced. She saved my bacon a couple of times - once by landing and then ramping me up to Titan mana (when I had two Titans in hand) and once by drawing me into more cards. She also killed a couple of annoying dorks on the ground, which was nice.
I'm going to have to get some Wood Elves. They seem to be mighty decent.
Also, I went 4-0 despite punting badly a couple of times, so make of that what you will.
Agreed. Chandra is not good against Death's Shadow decks, especially Grixis, but she is great against just about everything else.
I also really like Wood Elves in a RG deck. I prefer Courser in my mono-green since she provides a good speed bump and acts as disruption. But in a RG deck that has removal, I don't think she is as good as Wood Elves.
Well, I went undefeated at FNM tonight and I saw a lot of Chandra, so colour me convinced. She saved my bacon a couple of times - once by landing and then ramping me up to Titan mana (when I had two Titans in hand) and once by drawing me into more cards. She also killed a couple of annoying dorks on the ground, which was nice.
I'm going to have to get some Wood Elves. They seem to be mighty decent.
Also, I went 4-0 despite punting badly a couple of times, so make of that what you will.
You've gotta get one of the Rebecca Guay ones. They look so much better than the rest.
Well, I went undefeated at FNM tonight and I saw a lot of Chandra, so colour me convinced. She saved my bacon a couple of times - once by landing and then ramping me up to Titan mana (when I had two Titans in hand) and once by drawing me into more cards. She also killed a couple of annoying dorks on the ground, which was nice.
I'm going to have to get some Wood Elves. They seem to be mighty decent.
Also, I went 4-0 despite punting badly a couple of times, so make of that what you will.
You've gotta get one of the Rebecca Guay ones. They look so much better than the rest.
I actually have one of those promo ones, but since the decklist I've seen runs 2, I'm still short.
Congrats to coinmagic and spawnofhastur on the X-0s! If you have time, do you mind giving a brief tournament report? It could even be just the matchups and the record (2-0, 2-1). Thanks.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That ones only around 5 dollars so getting another shouldn't be too hard. But, the Exodus one and the starter 1999 and the Portal all have Rebecca Guay art of those same two characters.
On the discussion about Tireless Tracker, yes the card is probably at its best in Titanshift with all the lands and mana to sink into clues. However do we actualy need that card in the sideboard?
I havenot played the card in titanshift because I always thought that I would be bringing it in against the control and midrange decks....where we are already heavily favored. So i'd rather save the SB slots for hard match-ups and against control/midrange I usually bring some good ol' Baloths / Thragtusk.
My main deck is fairly stock: 27 lands, 15 ramp (1 wood elves and 3/3 split explore farseek), 10 usual wincons, 4 bolts and the flex spots configuration that I am currently testing is 1x Prismatic Omen, 1x Chandra torch of Defiance, 1x Engineered Explosives, 1x Anger of the Gods.
I really love them against Death's Shadow decks, which are pretty tough matchups. Against those decks, I side out all Scapeshifts and 1 basic Forest and turn into a RG midrange deck. Since they knock themselves below 10 life, it doesn't take much to finish the job. Stubborn Denial doesn't stop it, and it provides a ton of cards.
that's interesting. So how many trackers do you have in the SB and what other cards do you bring in against death shadow? it's a tough match up for sure, so I might give the trackers a try.
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Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
IMO it's perfectly acceptable to weigh in on the discussion with the caveat that I haven't tested it. You don't have to test every card to determine whether or not it is a good fit for this deck. For example, if someone asked whether we should run Rampant Growth, you could easily say "I haven't tested it but it compared unfavorably to Farseek".
Besides, you gave the exact same answer I did (doesn't protect itself, +1 is irrelevant). Clearly I don't need to test it to come the same conclusion you did after testing ;-)
I am playing in Las Vegas, but I am still torn between decks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)A. Person A suggests a card/ask if it was tested
B. Persons B-Z add opinion without testing.
Merfolk was notorious for this, and the phrase "Not what Fish wants to do" is sort of coined for that. Its a slippery slope and this forum is even guilty of it sometimes. Just be mindful, is all I'm saying.
As for Vegas, the Reddit /r/Scapeshift sub is doing a meetup, and I was going to extend it to this and the RUG threads if there was interest.
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
That makes sense. In my opinion, the issue does not come from persons B-Z adding their opinion without testing but rather person's B-Z making generic statements like the one you quoted: "not what Fish wants to do". That's not a helpful analysis.
My opinion of Koth was based on a direct comparison to Chandra, a card that is often used in Titan Shift.
But your point is good and valid. I will try to make sure I don't automatically dismiss a card without solid logic, especially comparison to other cards (i.e. Rampant Growth < Farseek).
To OP's question, consider Tireless Tracker instead of Koth in those flex slots. Both Koth and Tracker come down turn 3, both end the game if unanswered, and both die easily. Tracker can't be stopped with Stubborn Denial, doesn't expose your most valuable resource (lands) to death by Push, and it will often draw you 2+ cards on its way out.
I'm down. I am going with a bunch of people and playing in all 3 GPs (hopefully not if I find some success), but I can stray away for a while. Wednesday night would probably be a good time as well.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
All in all, Chandra is a fine card, but likely a sb option for now, until the meta shifted IMO.
I had a game last night against Grixis control (no DS) where I wanted to sandbag a KHE for a few turns until I could land a Tracker. The tracker resolved and then got bolted, but I was able to get 3 Clues off it immediately.
As for the GP meetup, if you're planning on attending the GP and are interested in attending fill out the survey in the Reddit thread (don't need a Reddit account)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scapeshift/comments/6efhr4/gp_vegas_meetup/
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
I have yet to try Tracker in this list, but it has done good things for me in other formats and it's definitely a card that will win the game if it goes unanswered.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I feel like Knightfall (which I don't know the deck well) and even Abzan Company with a 1-2 of after SB are pretty close to the best Tracker deck, but Titanshift may take that title since the removal needed for him is taken out against Titanshift because it does nothing against our other creatures.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)We also have significantly more mana to pop the clues, plus a ton more lands and ways of searching for lands. It's close between those 3, but I am sure enjoying them in the Titan Shift sideboard!
Got my 3rd 5-0 last night
I'm going to have to get some Wood Elves. They seem to be mighty decent.
Also, I went 4-0 despite punting badly a couple of times, so make of that what you will.
Agreed. Chandra is not good against Death's Shadow decks, especially Grixis, but she is great against just about everything else.
I also really like Wood Elves in a RG deck. I prefer Courser in my mono-green since she provides a good speed bump and acts as disruption. But in a RG deck that has removal, I don't think she is as good as Wood Elves.
You've gotta get one of the Rebecca Guay ones. They look so much better than the rest.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I actually have one of those promo ones, but since the decklist I've seen runs 2, I'm still short.
Congrats to coinmagic and spawnofhastur on the X-0s! If you have time, do you mind giving a brief tournament report? It could even be just the matchups and the record (2-0, 2-1). Thanks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I havenot played the card in titanshift because I always thought that I would be bringing it in against the control and midrange decks....where we are already heavily favored. So i'd rather save the SB slots for hard match-ups and against control/midrange I usually bring some good ol' Baloths / Thragtusk.
Here is my current SB on MTGO:
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Beast Within
2 Nature's claim
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thragtusk
2 Anger of the Gods
My main deck is fairly stock: 27 lands, 15 ramp (1 wood elves and 3/3 split explore farseek), 10 usual wincons, 4 bolts and the flex spots configuration that I am currently testing is 1x Prismatic Omen, 1x Chandra torch of Defiance, 1x Engineered Explosives, 1x Anger of the Gods.