small sample size but I've run 2 competitive leagues the last two days without chalice and gone 5-0, 4-1 (19-4) losing to lantern. Played a lot of G tron, jeskai and burn. 2 baby Karn, 1 big Karn, 1 wurmcoil. feels super strong. Im planning on dropping the singleton torpor orb in the side for a crucible or 4th GQ as humans has gone away a bit and it isn't a particularly bad matchup anyway. with that loss to lantern, obviously chalice was missed in a big way, but theres no way to set yourself up as a favorite to every deck.
Where do we sit on the karn vs baby karn decision currently?
I may be the minority here, but I don't think either Karn is mandatory. I took out my 2x Karn for a 1x Ugin and a third Chalice MB a while back and haven't missed him one bit. While Baby Karn's draw abilities are helpful, I almost always would rather have an Eldrazi to cast. If I have it in my hand late game, it's kind of a dead card. I will clarify that I've only goldfished with Baby Karn and proxied one game and wasn't impressed. It can definitely find a home in a different colorless deck, but my aggressive style doesn't tend to care for it.
Hi guys. Finally decided to start my serious journey in to modern. I went with Eldrazi tron. Thanks to all in this thread, especially Tituba. Your insight helped me build my deck. Took forever to get the account woth twitch straightened out but ive made it.
My deck is very similar to Tituba's chaliceless list. Ive got the deck built in the forums, but havent figured out how to share.
First fnm went 3-2. Beat burn, some green land destruction deck, and eldrazi and taxes. Lost to allies and humans. Lots of fun, and i look forward to where this deck and I will go.
Where do we sit on the karn vs baby karn decision currently?
I may be the minority here, but I don't think either Karn is mandatory. I took out my 2x Karn for a 1x Ugin and a third Chalice MB a while back and haven't missed him one bit. While Baby Karn's draw abilities are helpful, I almost always would rather have an Eldrazi to cast. If I have it in my hand late game, it's kind of a dead card. I will clarify that I've only goldfished with Baby Karn and proxied one game and wasn't impressed. It can definitely find a home in a different colorless deck, but my aggressive style doesn't tend to care for it.
Yeah Karn, Scion of Urza is not the most impressive card when you want to make your deck more aggressive, especially with only a moderate maindeck artifact count.
Both Karns are not arguably necessary, but rather offer a different angle of attack in a world full of Path to Exile, Reflector Mage, and sweepers. If your meta has an abundance of these effects, then Endbringer's worth goes down, and the most successful replacements for the 3rd and/or 4th Endbringer, typically look like Karn Liberated, Karn, Scion of Urza, and Wurmcoil Engine.
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Hi guys. Finally decided to start my serious journey in to modern. I went with Eldrazi tron. Thanks to all in this thread, especially Tituba. Your insight helped me build my deck. Took forever to get the account woth twitch straightened out but ive made it.
My deck is very similar to Tituba's chaliceless list. Ive got the deck built in the forums, but havent figured out how to share.
First fnm went 3-2. Beat burn, some green land destruction deck, and eldrazi and taxes. Lost to allies and humans. Lots of fun, and i look forward to where this deck and I will go.
Thanks! What helped me with learning how to use the decklist and other functions on this forum, was to find a post that had a decklist or whatever I wanted to include in my post, and use the quote button to pop open their post and copy-paste their syntax to use as my framework.
There is a tournament report on /r/spikes from a person that got 1st place at their SCG Regional event, with some really nice discussion on the deck. I recommend you guys check it out if you haven't seen it yet. Here is the post.
I'm curious about the 4 Leyline of the Void in the side. After reading his rundown it doesn't look like he sided it in at all. I guess he thought Dredge or Hollow One was going to be prevalent. I'd like to hear his reasoning.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm curious about the 4 Leyline of the Void in the side. After reading his rundown it doesn't look like he sided it in at all. I guess he thought Dredge or Hollow One was going to be prevalent. I'd like to hear his reasoning.
I actually kind of like the decision to go with that card over relic/cage/surgical. Because RB hollow can go off on turn 1, Leyline is a pretty good option since it would go on the field on turn zero. The current GY decks are so fast and degenerate you can sometimes get punished for being on the draw with your relic. His sideboard has zero CMC 1 cards which I think works with chalice well. Leyline is harder to remove with EE (makes it seem really good against KCI) due to its high cmc, and being a non-artifact dodges some sideboard hate.
Drawing extra copies would feel really bad as we can't even cast the card. Also, I've found hollow one and dredge to be quite beatable with relics and cages, outside of the rare occasion when they have a nut hand. Relic is way more playable against Jund and the like, where there is value to be had in trimming their GY each turn. It's pretty common to use 4ish sideboard slots on GY hate, and going with Leylines or 1-drops both seem reasonable, dependingon whether you want relics because they are more widely used, or Leylines to really shut down the few GY aggro decks.
I've been warming up to E-Tron lately as Humans and Affinity seem to be on a little downswing due to all the Jeskai. Just got a 5-0 this afternoon with a tweaked version of wildabeast49's recent no Chalice list:
I went -1 Relic, -1 Cage, -1 Torpor Orb, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Crucible of Worlds. Per the recent discussion, Leylines are going a bit deep for me. The problems with it have already been discussed, and Relic is way too versatile of a card for me to play without. Same story with Surgical to a lesser extent. Its won me matches against Valakut and Amulet lately, and its just great in general against degenerate decks. It's also important to pick up those percentage points against Gx Tron that we lose by not playing Chalice in this configuration.
Overall I like the build. My main issues are that it's a bit light on <> sources with only 2 Mind Stone and 2 Wastes. In the Blood Moon matchups its OK to be able to search for Wastes with Map, but if you're playing against UWx and you have one in your opener, you can count on getting strip mined at least once and I just hate that feeling. Might be worth it to just shave down to 2 GQ for the 3rd Wastes.
Gut Shot seems great against Affinity but I haven't had the pleasure of playing against it recently. Seems solid against Humans as well but mostly only early game. It's a pretty miserable topdeck in the mid-late game. So the jury is still out for me on that card.
It's my first round of testing with Skysovereign as well. It's been okay, but I'm not convinced that a 2nd Wurmcoil or something isn't just better. Anyone tested with this card a bunch and have thoughts on this?
Hey smoo, Ive moved off skysovereign for batterskull in the board. gut shot has been great for humans, affinity, ponza and value town; there are a ton of dorks running around right now. I didnt run surgicals because I didnt have them. Ive since gotten and put them in the side 2x, theyve been the key to UW taking all the their cryptics/field of ruins, paths. Ive also gone to 1 torpor and added a crucible so we've come to alot of the same conclusions.
little Karn just runs away with games v UW you quickly hit a point where you're making every land drop and casting 2 spells a turn and they can't keep up. I also side in surgical, looking mainly for cryptic, but Ill take paths particularly if I know they have a second or snap in hand. I also have a third wastes currently to get value off the fields and paths running around.
What are you guys' take on this deck in a world with Damping Sphere?
I'm thinking about getting into Modern and I basically have all the cards (except the really pricey ones) for both Eldrazi tron and Affinity. I like playing both decks a lot, but I love Eldrazi hehe. I just wouldn't want to put more money into a deck that gets ****ed by one sideboarded card hehe.
Seems like Wizards hate Eldrazi.
What is its most important purpose in our deck?
- another path to ramp to a T3 CMC >= 4
- Blood Moon (and, to a lesser extent, land destruction) protection
My local meta, and the overall meta, seem to be low on Blood Moon because Mardu Pyromancer is under-represented, and UR Control is either under-represented or not succeeding (compared to UW Control and UWR Control).
I've loved having Mind Stone for the purposes stated above, but do y'all feel the deck's mana curve needs it?
What are you guys' take on this deck in a world with Damping Sphere?
I'm thinking about getting into Modern and I basically have all the cards (except the really pricey ones) for both Eldrazi tron and Affinity. I like playing both decks a lot, but I love Eldrazi hehe. I just wouldn't want to put more money into a deck that gets ****ed by one sideboarded card hehe.
Seems like Wizards hate Eldrazi.
Damping Sphere sees little play in the metagame at large, so there is little need to worry about it there.
E Tron does not usually care to play around land-hate in Modern. The same goes for Damping Sphere.
E Tron Original Plan A:
1) ramp
2) play threats ahead of curve
E Tron Modified for Land-Hate Plan A:
1) if Blood Moon is on the battlefield get access to Colorless mana
2) play threats on curve
Assembling Tron was never Plan A. E Tron is a slight misnomer because the deck is generally not actively looking to assemble Tron. It tends to be easier to ramp with Eldrazi Temple. Assembling Tron is a second avenue to ramp that just also happens to give the deck a small percentage of free wins.
If you are concerned about Damping Sphere, then you might want maindeck Mind Stone, and to a lesser extent, Warping Wail, to more consistently ramp.
If other folks have feelings on the matter please chime in!
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Yep, you pretty much nailed it on Damping Sphere. The card is really not very threatening to us.
On Mind Stone: it's a great card for consistency - smoothing out the draws, acceleration, cycling in the grindy matchups, and providing <> mana under a Blood Moon, but none of that is essential for the deck to run well. If your meta calls for more maindeck removal or other tech cards then it's totally fine to cut them. Recent 5-0 list without them, in fact:
I've been playing a bit with the chaliceless build. It feels fine against the field, particularly the top of the meta. My one burn match felt unwinnable without chalice due to their really good draws, and even though I was siding out some number of chalices against jeskai control, winning game 1 against them feels more difficult without chalice as well. I ran 4-1, 2-3, 4-1, and 3-2 comp. leagues for a 13-7 overall record and played in one paper tournament with the same list and went 3-0-1 [ID last round] for first out of 32 players.
For the discussion on mind stone/warping wail/spatial Contortion, I think it comes down to whether you're planning on playing more linearly, less interactive, and hoping the plan of ramp into T3 eldrai happens to line up against the opponent well. We've seen lists running mind stones and zero spot removal outside of dismember top 8 large tournaments and 5-0 leagues within the past month, which IMO means the strategy is viable, however it may be a bit dependant on dodging bad matchups on the way to such a finish. Remember, it still is possible to take game 1 off of humans or druid combo if we have the interaction or an explosive hand even if we are lacking 2 drop spot removal. We just need a little luck.
There have also been lists that have completely removed mind stones in order to use spot removal instead. This approach is trying to interact slightly more early game rather than just ramp out fatties and hope to get there. It's hedging against some of the top decks in the format which are wide and aggressive creature decks. Meddling mage and mantis rider are two creatures I really want spot removal to hit, which is why spatial is being favored over warping wail at this point in time. This configuration top 8'd SCG Minneapolis. If a dude can 13-2 15 rounds of Swiss without mind stone i think that's some pretty solid evidence that mind stones are not critical.
Lastly, some of us have been trying a zero chalice build in order to fit BOTH mind stones and contortions in the main (which also makes room for surgicals in the side), and there have been two different people to 5-0 with that configuration. I think all 3 of three configurations are viable, each one slightly changing certain matchups for better or for worse. If you're trying to hone in on a list for a particular local meta, decide what you want to best and what you're alright with losing some percentage points to. Personally I prefer to have my list setup to play at a large event where anything and everything is expected, which is why my paper deck and MODO deck are usually built the exact same. I really can't say which of these three configurations are better than the others, I think if you get the right matchups and draw well you could crush with any of them. They each make concessions against certain archetypes (or in the case of mind stone risking the deck losing to itself by not producing enough mana).
Running zero chalices has felt pretty smoothe for using my CMC=1 cards, it is sooo nice to not have to factor in chalice when sideboarding. But the burn matchup felt so terrible without chalice. I'm just not sure if we want a previously great matchup to turn so sour. You other guys running no chalice, what other matchups have you felt chalices were really really missed?
After the recent testing I did I went back to Chalices main. For some reason Burn is a lot more popular right now and obviously that is a key matchup for it. Still seeing lots of Storm as well, and I saw Grixis Shadow 3 times in one day recently, which feels pretty bad without Chalice. That deck is not dead by any means. Also people are still trying Infect here and there with it just winning the SCG Invitational. So I'm in favor of Chalices right now.
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I may be the minority here, but I don't think either Karn is mandatory. I took out my 2x Karn for a 1x Ugin and a third Chalice MB a while back and haven't missed him one bit. While Baby Karn's draw abilities are helpful, I almost always would rather have an Eldrazi to cast. If I have it in my hand late game, it's kind of a dead card. I will clarify that I've only goldfished with Baby Karn and proxied one game and wasn't impressed. It can definitely find a home in a different colorless deck, but my aggressive style doesn't tend to care for it.
My deck is very similar to Tituba's chaliceless list. Ive got the deck built in the forums, but havent figured out how to share.
First fnm went 3-2. Beat burn, some green land destruction deck, and eldrazi and taxes. Lost to allies and humans. Lots of fun, and i look forward to where this deck and I will go.
Yeah Karn, Scion of Urza is not the most impressive card when you want to make your deck more aggressive, especially with only a moderate maindeck artifact count.
Both Karns are not arguably necessary, but rather offer a different angle of attack in a world full of Path to Exile, Reflector Mage, and sweepers. If your meta has an abundance of these effects, then Endbringer's worth goes down, and the most successful replacements for the 3rd and/or 4th Endbringer, typically look like Karn Liberated, Karn, Scion of Urza, and Wurmcoil Engine.
CETronC
WUBGRHumansWUBGR
UMerfolkU
GU
InfectGURBGx
DredgeRBGxThanks! What helped me with learning how to use the decklist and other functions on this forum, was to find a post that had a decklist or whatever I wanted to include in my post, and use the quote button to pop open their post and copy-paste their syntax to use as my framework.
There is a tournament report on /r/spikes from a person that got 1st place at their SCG Regional event, with some really nice discussion on the deck. I recommend you guys check it out if you haven't seen it yet. Here is the post.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-eldrazi-tron-46492#paper
I'm curious about the 4 Leyline of the Void in the side. After reading his rundown it doesn't look like he sided it in at all. I guess he thought Dredge or Hollow One was going to be prevalent. I'd like to hear his reasoning.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I actually kind of like the decision to go with that card over relic/cage/surgical. Because RB hollow can go off on turn 1, Leyline is a pretty good option since it would go on the field on turn zero. The current GY decks are so fast and degenerate you can sometimes get punished for being on the draw with your relic. His sideboard has zero CMC 1 cards which I think works with chalice well. Leyline is harder to remove with EE (makes it seem really good against KCI) due to its high cmc, and being a non-artifact dodges some sideboard hate.
Drawing extra copies would feel really bad as we can't even cast the card. Also, I've found hollow one and dredge to be quite beatable with relics and cages, outside of the rare occasion when they have a nut hand. Relic is way more playable against Jund and the like, where there is value to be had in trimming their GY each turn. It's pretty common to use 4ish sideboard slots on GY hate, and going with Leylines or 1-drops both seem reasonable, dependingon whether you want relics because they are more widely used, or Leylines to really shut down the few GY aggro decks.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1125559#online
I went -1 Relic, -1 Cage, -1 Torpor Orb, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Crucible of Worlds. Per the recent discussion, Leylines are going a bit deep for me. The problems with it have already been discussed, and Relic is way too versatile of a card for me to play without. Same story with Surgical to a lesser extent. Its won me matches against Valakut and Amulet lately, and its just great in general against degenerate decks. It's also important to pick up those percentage points against Gx Tron that we lose by not playing Chalice in this configuration.
Overall I like the build. My main issues are that it's a bit light on <> sources with only 2 Mind Stone and 2 Wastes. In the Blood Moon matchups its OK to be able to search for Wastes with Map, but if you're playing against UWx and you have one in your opener, you can count on getting strip mined at least once and I just hate that feeling. Might be worth it to just shave down to 2 GQ for the 3rd Wastes.
Gut Shot seems great against Affinity but I haven't had the pleasure of playing against it recently. Seems solid against Humans as well but mostly only early game. It's a pretty miserable topdeck in the mid-late game. So the jury is still out for me on that card.
It's my first round of testing with Skysovereign as well. It's been okay, but I'm not convinced that a 2nd Wurmcoil or something isn't just better. Anyone tested with this card a bunch and have thoughts on this?
What are the appreciable differences with our strategies versus UWR Control?
I am currently running 3 Ghost Quarter, for Colonnade, and 3 Cavern of Souls, main deck.
I side in Surgical Extraction, looking for Path or Cryptic Command, and Pithing Needle for their field of ruins and walkers.
CETronC
WUBGRHumansWUBGR
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GU
InfectGURBGx
DredgeRBGxI'm thinking about getting into Modern and I basically have all the cards (except the really pricey ones) for both Eldrazi tron and Affinity. I like playing both decks a lot, but I love Eldrazi hehe. I just wouldn't want to put more money into a deck that gets ****ed by one sideboarded card hehe.
Seems like Wizards hate Eldrazi.
4 Walking Ballista
3 Endbringer
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
Planeswalkers [3]
1 Karn Liberated
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
Lands [24]
2 Wastes
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Expedition Map
2 Dismember
2 Spatial Contortion
2 All Is Dust
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Torpor Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Gut Shot
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Warping Wail
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
What are folks' feelings on Mind Stone?
What is its most important purpose in our deck?
- another path to ramp to a T3 CMC >= 4
- Blood Moon (and, to a lesser extent, land destruction) protection
My local meta, and the overall meta, seem to be low on Blood Moon because Mardu Pyromancer is under-represented, and UR Control is either under-represented or not succeeding (compared to UW Control and UWR Control).
I've loved having Mind Stone for the purposes stated above, but do y'all feel the deck's mana curve needs it?
Should these 2 slots be metagamed between Spatial Contortion, Warping Wail, Mind Stone, and whatever else?
CETronC
WUBGRHumansWUBGR
UMerfolkU
GU
InfectGURBGx
DredgeRBGxDamping Sphere sees little play in the metagame at large, so there is little need to worry about it there.
E Tron does not usually care to play around land-hate in Modern. The same goes for Damping Sphere.
E Tron Original Plan A:
1) ramp
2) play threats ahead of curve
E Tron Modified for Land-Hate Plan A:
1) if Blood Moon is on the battlefield get access to Colorless mana
2) play threats on curve
Assembling Tron was never Plan A. E Tron is a slight misnomer because the deck is generally not actively looking to assemble Tron. It tends to be easier to ramp with Eldrazi Temple. Assembling Tron is a second avenue to ramp that just also happens to give the deck a small percentage of free wins.
If you are concerned about Damping Sphere, then you might want maindeck Mind Stone, and to a lesser extent, Warping Wail, to more consistently ramp.
If other folks have feelings on the matter please chime in!
CETronC
WUBGRHumansWUBGR
UMerfolkU
GU
InfectGURBGx
DredgeRBGxOn Mind Stone: it's a great card for consistency - smoothing out the draws, acceleration, cycling in the grindy matchups, and providing <> mana under a Blood Moon, but none of that is essential for the deck to run well. If your meta calls for more maindeck removal or other tech cards then it's totally fine to cut them. Recent 5-0 list without them, in fact:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1144460#online
4 Walking Ballista
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Artifacts [8]
2 Mind Stone
4 Expedition Map
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Batterskull
Spells [6]
2 Dismember
2 All Is Dust
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Karn Liberated
Lands [24]
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Buried Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Wastes
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Torpor Orb
2 Warping Wail
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Crucible of Worlds
For the discussion on mind stone/warping wail/spatial Contortion, I think it comes down to whether you're planning on playing more linearly, less interactive, and hoping the plan of ramp into T3 eldrai happens to line up against the opponent well. We've seen lists running mind stones and zero spot removal outside of dismember top 8 large tournaments and 5-0 leagues within the past month, which IMO means the strategy is viable, however it may be a bit dependant on dodging bad matchups on the way to such a finish. Remember, it still is possible to take game 1 off of humans or druid combo if we have the interaction or an explosive hand even if we are lacking 2 drop spot removal. We just need a little luck.
There have also been lists that have completely removed mind stones in order to use spot removal instead. This approach is trying to interact slightly more early game rather than just ramp out fatties and hope to get there. It's hedging against some of the top decks in the format which are wide and aggressive creature decks. Meddling mage and mantis rider are two creatures I really want spot removal to hit, which is why spatial is being favored over warping wail at this point in time. This configuration top 8'd SCG Minneapolis. If a dude can 13-2 15 rounds of Swiss without mind stone i think that's some pretty solid evidence that mind stones are not critical.
Lastly, some of us have been trying a zero chalice build in order to fit BOTH mind stones and contortions in the main (which also makes room for surgicals in the side), and there have been two different people to 5-0 with that configuration. I think all 3 of three configurations are viable, each one slightly changing certain matchups for better or for worse. If you're trying to hone in on a list for a particular local meta, decide what you want to best and what you're alright with losing some percentage points to. Personally I prefer to have my list setup to play at a large event where anything and everything is expected, which is why my paper deck and MODO deck are usually built the exact same. I really can't say which of these three configurations are better than the others, I think if you get the right matchups and draw well you could crush with any of them. They each make concessions against certain archetypes (or in the case of mind stone risking the deck losing to itself by not producing enough mana).
Running zero chalices has felt pretty smoothe for using my CMC=1 cards, it is sooo nice to not have to factor in chalice when sideboarding. But the burn matchup felt so terrible without chalice. I'm just not sure if we want a previously great matchup to turn so sour. You other guys running no chalice, what other matchups have you felt chalices were really really missed?
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR