Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
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Hey guys, I just finished writing a new primer after the previous OP was deleted due to the EU regulations stuff. I've been playing the deck regularly for the past couple weeks and it's been fun. I mostly made the switch from Gx Tron because Burn is super popular online right now and I wanted a better matchup. I wouldn't say the deck is in a great position right now - it kinda got left in the dust after 2018 brought so many wide and fast decks plus powerups for midrange and control, but it's better than it's been in a while with Burn, UR Phoenix and Grixis Shadow all among the top decks and Chalice being very good against them.
anyone here playing the 4 simian spirit guide decklist (turn 1 chalice)? I've seen a couple in streams and I looked here to check if it's a thing but it doesn't seem to be. anyone here has experience with it, and how well does it run?
I'm gonna put a few in the board to try this tonight. My LGS has seen a rise in Azorius control because the StarCity you tubes told all the spikes this is what they need to play....
I'm gonna put a few in the board to try this tonight. My LGS has seen a rise in Azorius control because the StarCity you tubes told all the spikes this is what they need to play....
Good luck. Let us know what happens.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Hey guys, I just finished writing a new primer after the previous OP was deleted due to the EU regulations stuff. I've been playing the deck regularly for the past couple weeks and it's been fun. I mostly made the switch from Gx Tron because Burn is super popular online right now and I wanted a better matchup. I wouldn't say the deck is in a great position right now - it kinda got left in the dust after 2018 brought so many wide and fast decks plus powerups for midrange and control, but it's better than it's been in a while with Burn, UR Phoenix and Grixis Shadow all among the top decks and Chalice being very good against them.
What kind of list are you running with? Im considering going back to E tron momentarily. I do like Arch over sea gate, seems like a decent swap to me. How do you feel about 23/24 lands, mind stone count, and baby Karn count? I'm also liking 1/1 splits of both wurm and collar in the main/side.
This is roughly what I played for the couple weeks or so that I was on the deck. I was actually playing 2 Radiant Fountain for a bit because Burn was like 15% of the MTGO meta. That's also why you see Dragon's Claw. I've never really considered going to 23 lands - I find myself choked on mana enough with 24. But this is with just 1 Mind Stone. Maybe if you were playing 3 I could see playing 23, but again, not something I've ever thought through. I miss the days where we could jam 4 Stone in the deck and have that sweet consistency, but the meta is so degenerate now that I feel we need those slots for the interactive cards like Relic/Collar, or even Wails/Spatials.
Haven't really felt drawn to Karn, Scion in this meta. The matchups where I'd want it most (Humans, UWx) are at low ebbs. I like the 2 Liberated to cover those control bases plus for Gx Tron, Amulet which is popular now, etc.
3 Dismember felt good for killing Shadow/Angler, TiTi/Drake, Devoted Druids/Vannifar nonsense going around right now.
I saw Arch...seems interesting but that list is also playing Oblivion Sowers and Treasure Maps to make extra permanents to get the city's blessing. I feel like Sea Gate is probably still better in an average list.
I think there's room for improvement in the list I posted though. I'm thinking about cutting the Surgicals entirely. The card is just not good enough against Dredge anymore now that they have Creeping Chill - they just have too many cards that matter. Chill makes that matchup a lot harder in general. Surgical can be good against Gx Tron and Phoenix but it's a really bad nonbo with our Chalice plan so I wouldn't feel too bad about losing it. We have enough against Storm already. I would miss it against Amulet though.
I reached a lot of the same conclusions as I was building a list; eldrazi tron, when built ideally, uses mind stone and scion of Urza and other cards to be the dominant midrange strategy. But right now decks are so fast that midrange hardly exists. If I can't pkay mind stone or scion of Urza maindeck then I don't think e tron is where i want to be, the deck becomes quite clunky without cards like those to smoothe the curve out.
When I look at sideboarding plans it feels even clunkier. Using storm as an example (even though it's not very prevalent atm), chalice on 1 and 2 both do serious work but so do a lot of our 1 and 2 drop sideboard cards. It's not smoothe at all. E tron is the midrange king but I don't think midrange is good right now and chalice alone can't carry the deck.
Yeah, agree. The cool thing about the deck is it's really customizable so you can potentially tune it to beat a certain local meta or take advantage of a particular trend, but I think it's really hard for it to be good against the field as it stands now, no matter how you construct it.
Mainly Grixis Shadow and BGx. Shadow usually only has 1 or 2 threats and Hangarback often represents 3 or more chump blockers, which buys us tons of time. The Thopters can also turn the tables and threaten to kill them quite quickly because they can't block them and they get to a low life total naturally. Against BGx it makes Liliana look really silly which is otherwise their best card against us. It's also fine as a speed bump against Humans, Burn and others, and it's great in the mirror if you ever see it.
This is where I'm at with the deck right now. The 2 Batterskulls main - I like this a lot better than Karn, Scion in that slot. It plays the same role against midrange and control, while being better against a lot of the field. In matchups like Hollow One and Spirits it allows you to race where the tokens from Karn don't do a great job of blocking. It's great against Burn and Dredge, where Karn doesn't do much at all, and it's solid against the Phoenix decks too. Lifegain is just really good in general right now, hence the Collar and Wurmcoil staying main in addition to the BSkulls. Up to 2 Mind Stone to help cast them.
2 Tectonic Edge in the land flex slots. This is a real effective plan against Tron which is a tough matchup, especially with the Crucible in the side. Also very good against control and Amulet/Valakut. The Radiant Fountain was kind of an emergency measure vs Burn but now it has died down a bit so I like the powerhouse card in Tec Edge. I think 1/1 Tec Edge/Buried Ruin split would also be good but I've been losing to Tron a lot so I want to shore that up.
Decided on Surgicals over Relics for GY hate, at least for now. I'm losing Relic against Shadow and BGx but I don't actually think this matters much as this build already has enough good cards for those matchups. Against Phoenix Relic is probably better but it's not a huge difference. The main downside is Surgical is definitely worse than Relic against Dredge, but Surgical is better against Tron, Amulet and Valakut, so I think Surgical wins out. I'm relying more on the lifegain plan to beat Dredge with this build.
Tons of tools for creature decks rounding out the SB, with Warping Wail doing double duty as a counterspell vs Dredge, Burn, Phoenix, Valakut, Living End, etc.
So I abandoned the above list pretty quickly. I knew Dredge would be tough with that configuration but it's more than tough. You really need Relics to have a shot cause like I said earlier Surgical is pretty impotent against them nowadays. Even Grafdigger's Cage isn't amazing because they can still Chill through it. With Grudges plus Trophy and Nature's Claim it's really easy for them to destroy our lifegain artifacts as well. I think if you wanna have a good shot of winning the matchup you want to be playing Leyline of the Void or Ravenous Trap, in addition to Relics. I'll be trying something like this soon.
Tron still feels really tough too. Somehow I actually had a positive record in the matchup during my 2017 run, but right now it just feels hopeless. The games I win are super-close nailbiters, and the ones I lose are just complete blowouts. It's never easy.
Despite this I'm still doing pretty well overall though - about 64% winrate in Friendly over 115 matches since the end of Jan. So the deck is still good enough for me to justify continuing to tinker with it.
I had a pretty good run with this list today - 12-3 (5-0, 2-3, 5-0) in 3 leagues. Theres a few notable things here. Firstly the Leylines that I just mentioned. As it turned out I didn't run into Dredge or any other matchups where I'd want them, so they never came in.
The other big thing is that I cut all the Endbringers and replaced them with Wurmcoils. Wurmcoil is just fantastic right now and there's really not many scenarios where you'd rather have Endbringer. Obviously Endbringer is a bit easier to cast due to Temple, but I did not find this to be super relevant. I don't think the difference between 5 and 6 is that big in this deck because once you're at that stage of the game, you're more and more likely to have Tron available anyway so the boost from Temple becomes moot. And it gives you the ability to have the "nut draw" of turn 3 Wurmcoil which, like I alluded to before, is just a lot better than Endbringer these days.
So with the Coils in that slot the lifelink from Batterskull becomes less relevant, plus it becomes harder to justify playing more clunky spells so I opted for the Baby Karns instead. Just 4 generic mana is pretty easily attainable in any game. I can't say they really won me any games but they did reasonable work. I'd definitely consider them the 59th and 60th cards though - they could be some mix of Warping Wail, Mind Stone or Dismember as well.
I also played the Ulamog/Sanctum of Ugin package. I wanted more game against Tron and obviously it's good in a lot of other scenarios like control, combo, and just going over the top in general. Sanctum is actually fairly easy to trigger because you can just fire off a huge Chalice for it, All is Dust, in addition to the Ballistas. In one game against Titan Shift I actually won by casting All is Dust killing nothing just to trigger Sanctum, and grabbed a Reality Smasher to swing for lethal when I would have been dead to the Scapeshift on the top of his deck the following turn. So it's definitely a nice tool to have.
Congrats on the sick score. two 5-0's is awesome! I know a lot of people whine and moan about Eldrazi, but I love them hehe, so I'm glad to see the colourless list kicking some ass again.
What were the matchups you lost? (if you remember) What made them troublesome?
Hey, thanks for the post. This was beginning to feel like my own personal blog
On that run I lost to Tron, Titan Shift and Counters Company. Not hard to understand why I lost to the first 2, though I actually beat each of them on the same run as well. In the Counters Company match my opponent was on the play and blew up my Map with Knight of Autumn on turn 2 and just got way ahead. In game 2 I mulled and my 6 was mediocre but keepable and just didn't get there.
I've recently tried out 2 copies of Elder-Deep Fiend in the main deck and it worked surprisingly well. The card is pretty busted when you have the mana. Bonus points against merfolk :P.
I feel like it may be better in the deck than cards like Karn Liberated or Ulamog, because it's often actually easier to cast and flash gives it amazing flexibility.
Elder-Deep Fiend is rad. Do you tweak your mana base to go for the merge cost too? Probably don't need to hehe, just curious if you'd do that.
I have almost all the cards I need to build this deck properly, I just still need to get the expensive cards like 4 Aether Vial, big Karn and stuff like that. I have all the eldrazi, ballistas, tron lands, wurmcoil and stuff like that. Just need to really expensive cards hehe.
I'm just still deciding which deck to go for in modern. This deck in general has just been having it rough the last year or so, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth the money to get the final pieces to make it competitive worthy (aka take it to FNM hehe, that's as competitive I get)
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Any use?
A 5/5 flyer with Hexproof from Path to Exile and dodges Ceremonious Rejection seems decent. Of course All is Dust hits it. Thoughts?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm gonna put a few in the board to try this tonight. My LGS has seen a rise in Azorius control because the StarCity you tubes told all the spikes this is what they need to play....
RUBDa ShadowBUR
Good luck. Let us know what happens.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
What kind of list are you running with? Im considering going back to E tron momentarily. I do like Arch over sea gate, seems like a decent swap to me. How do you feel about 23/24 lands, mind stone count, and baby Karn count? I'm also liking 1/1 splits of both wurm and collar in the main/side.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Endbringer
4 Walking Ballista
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Other spells [17]
2 All Is Dust
3 Dismember
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Expedition Map
1 Mind Stone
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Wastes
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 All Is Dust
2 Spatial Contortion
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Karn Liberated
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Dragon's Claw
This is roughly what I played for the couple weeks or so that I was on the deck. I was actually playing 2 Radiant Fountain for a bit because Burn was like 15% of the MTGO meta. That's also why you see Dragon's Claw. I've never really considered going to 23 lands - I find myself choked on mana enough with 24. But this is with just 1 Mind Stone. Maybe if you were playing 3 I could see playing 23, but again, not something I've ever thought through. I miss the days where we could jam 4 Stone in the deck and have that sweet consistency, but the meta is so degenerate now that I feel we need those slots for the interactive cards like Relic/Collar, or even Wails/Spatials.
Haven't really felt drawn to Karn, Scion in this meta. The matchups where I'd want it most (Humans, UWx) are at low ebbs. I like the 2 Liberated to cover those control bases plus for Gx Tron, Amulet which is popular now, etc.
3 Dismember felt good for killing Shadow/Angler, TiTi/Drake, Devoted Druids/Vannifar nonsense going around right now.
I saw Arch...seems interesting but that list is also playing Oblivion Sowers and Treasure Maps to make extra permanents to get the city's blessing. I feel like Sea Gate is probably still better in an average list.
When I look at sideboarding plans it feels even clunkier. Using storm as an example (even though it's not very prevalent atm), chalice on 1 and 2 both do serious work but so do a lot of our 1 and 2 drop sideboard cards. It's not smoothe at all. E tron is the midrange king but I don't think midrange is good right now and chalice alone can't carry the deck.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
2 Tectonic Edge in the land flex slots. This is a real effective plan against Tron which is a tough matchup, especially with the Crucible in the side. Also very good against control and Amulet/Valakut. The Radiant Fountain was kind of an emergency measure vs Burn but now it has died down a bit so I like the powerhouse card in Tec Edge. I think 1/1 Tec Edge/Buried Ruin split would also be good but I've been losing to Tron a lot so I want to shore that up.
Decided on Surgicals over Relics for GY hate, at least for now. I'm losing Relic against Shadow and BGx but I don't actually think this matters much as this build already has enough good cards for those matchups. Against Phoenix Relic is probably better but it's not a huge difference. The main downside is Surgical is definitely worse than Relic against Dredge, but Surgical is better against Tron, Amulet and Valakut, so I think Surgical wins out. I'm relying more on the lifegain plan to beat Dredge with this build.
Tons of tools for creature decks rounding out the SB, with Warping Wail doing double duty as a counterspell vs Dredge, Burn, Phoenix, Valakut, Living End, etc.
Tron still feels really tough too. Somehow I actually had a positive record in the matchup during my 2017 run, but right now it just feels hopeless. The games I win are super-close nailbiters, and the ones I lose are just complete blowouts. It's never easy.
Despite this I'm still doing pretty well overall though - about 64% winrate in Friendly over 115 matches since the end of Jan. So the deck is still good enough for me to justify continuing to tinker with it.
The other big thing is that I cut all the Endbringers and replaced them with Wurmcoils. Wurmcoil is just fantastic right now and there's really not many scenarios where you'd rather have Endbringer. Obviously Endbringer is a bit easier to cast due to Temple, but I did not find this to be super relevant. I don't think the difference between 5 and 6 is that big in this deck because once you're at that stage of the game, you're more and more likely to have Tron available anyway so the boost from Temple becomes moot. And it gives you the ability to have the "nut draw" of turn 3 Wurmcoil which, like I alluded to before, is just a lot better than Endbringer these days.
So with the Coils in that slot the lifelink from Batterskull becomes less relevant, plus it becomes harder to justify playing more clunky spells so I opted for the Baby Karns instead. Just 4 generic mana is pretty easily attainable in any game. I can't say they really won me any games but they did reasonable work. I'd definitely consider them the 59th and 60th cards though - they could be some mix of Warping Wail, Mind Stone or Dismember as well.
I also played the Ulamog/Sanctum of Ugin package. I wanted more game against Tron and obviously it's good in a lot of other scenarios like control, combo, and just going over the top in general. Sanctum is actually fairly easy to trigger because you can just fire off a huge Chalice for it, All is Dust, in addition to the Ballistas. In one game against Titan Shift I actually won by casting All is Dust killing nothing just to trigger Sanctum, and grabbed a Reality Smasher to swing for lethal when I would have been dead to the Scapeshift on the top of his deck the following turn. So it's definitely a nice tool to have.
What were the matchups you lost? (if you remember) What made them troublesome?
On that run I lost to Tron, Titan Shift and Counters Company. Not hard to understand why I lost to the first 2, though I actually beat each of them on the same run as well. In the Counters Company match my opponent was on the play and blew up my Map with Knight of Autumn on turn 2 and just got way ahead. In game 2 I mulled and my 6 was mediocre but keepable and just didn't get there.
I've recently tried out 2 copies of Elder-Deep Fiend in the main deck and it worked surprisingly well. The card is pretty busted when you have the mana. Bonus points against merfolk :P.
I feel like it may be better in the deck than cards like Karn Liberated or Ulamog, because it's often actually easier to cast and flash gives it amazing flexibility.
I have almost all the cards I need to build this deck properly, I just still need to get the expensive cards like 4 Aether Vial, big Karn and stuff like that. I have all the eldrazi, ballistas, tron lands, wurmcoil and stuff like that. Just need to really expensive cards hehe.
I'm just still deciding which deck to go for in modern. This deck in general has just been having it rough the last year or so, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth the money to get the final pieces to make it competitive worthy (aka take it to FNM hehe, that's as competitive I get)