For those of you who are splashing blue has anyone considered running Minamo, School at Water's Edge? It could be another good option of untapping Nykthos especially considering it can be tutored with Prime and hard to get rid of.
This is brilliant...I hadn't thought of it; but you can be 100% sure I will be trying this out immediately! Great idea! Thank you for posting this.
Yes. Very yes. Did we just break the deck? Nykthos, minamo-nykthos, garruk-nykthos. Million mana?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Ok so i've been having some thoughts. I played at a ptq yesterday and took away an exactly average standing (4-4-1) with scapeshift. I felt all day like i had perhaps gone the wrong route by playing what is essentially a control deck.
As the tournament continued, people dropped, and the games got quicker. All the durdly control decks suffered at he hands of affinity and aggro rock and couldnt maintain their win ratios. I played several long hard fought games, eaking out advantage, winning basically four games in a row, but then fell to two affinity decks at the end. I gave a full tournament report over on the scapeshift thread in proven:modern.
Anyway why am i bringing this up.
Throughout the tournament, people were drawing awful hands left right and centre. Nobody (apart from one dude i saw) drew a 'god hand' and the games were messy, with people frantically trying to draw into something useful.
I think this reality needs to be brought home into the process of streamlining the deck. Are there too many "dead" cards that don't do anything by themselves? Are there too many card-specific interactions (such as arbor elf and the enchantment really only being effective on a basic forest) which mean drawing the wrong thing puts you at risk of a blowout? Can we be explosive even with a half-bad hand? If we get behind do we have outs to get back in the game? If games go long can we blow them out through removal and counters? CAN WE BEAT AFFINITY?
One thing that surprised me the most. Creatures stick in modern. I didn't see a single bolt in the whole tournament except the ones i was running. I saw precisely one path to exile. Everything else was karns, arcbound ravagers, restoration angels and treetop villages. A couple of affinity players ran galvanic blast, which is a solid choice. There's been a huge shift to where the metagame is now fast aggro/combo, or control/combo. I think our nykthos deck stands a chance.
But through these long games of topdecking, i thought to myself, sticking any kind of large threat here just wins. They have no cards in hand. A threat on the board beats nearly all potential topdecks.
So with that in mind it makes me like chord more, as a maindeck choice. Chord for elesh norn or wurmcoil straight up beats affinity. How early can we feasibly do that? Run enough mana dorks and it seems reasonable.
Regarding the plow under strategy- i bought 4 primal command last night and rate them highly vs the decks i saw at the ptq. I don't however think plow works vs affinity, as they just vomit their hand onto the board. Gaining 7 life and bouncing a thing is good. Gaining 7 life and fetching a wurmcoil engine is very good. Blocking etched champions is a MUST, if we havent drawn into genesis wave.
Primal command seems awesome in the metagame i saw yesterday, simply awesome. Plow seems like sideboard strategy. Chord seems like it should be way up there in terms of things we do with our mana. Genesis wave (if we can resolve it) is our "scapeshift" - a one card combo. I wouldn't rely on it early in the game. If they have remands you just feel sad.
As far as creatures go, i like courser of kruphix. It seemed yesterday like having one on the board would have been good in most games. Wall of roots also seems decent. Garruk seems like a windmill slam and i can see why jund is electing to maindeck him now. The time is right.
Anyway i'm babbling. My point is i'm going to revise my version of the deck. Chording for game enders is still the main play. Genesis wave is the combo win (but also a good value play) and i'm jamming the full 4 primal commmand in there to wreck the decks i saw yesterday and strengthen our strategy with the search/bounce.
If i can get the deck to a place i like, i'm going to run it at the next ptq. I'm done with control decks at large events. Games going to time and stuff doesnt leave you in a good state to continue through the day.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Ok so i've been having some thoughts. I played at a ptq yesterday and took away an exactly average standing (4-4-1) with scapeshift. I felt all day like i had perhaps gone the wrong route by playing what is essentially a control deck.
As the tournament continued, people dropped, and the games got quicker. All the durdly control decks suffered at he hands of affinity and aggro rock and couldnt maintain their win ratios. I played several long hard fought games, eaking out advantage, winning basically four games in a row, but then fell to two affinity decks at the end. I gave a full tournament report over on the scapeshift thread in proven:modern.
Anyway why am i bringing this up.
Throughout the tournament, people were drawing awful hands left right and centre. Nobody (apart from one dude i saw) drew a 'god hand' and the games were messy, with people frantically trying to draw into something useful.
I think this reality needs to be brought home into the process of streamlining the deck. Are there too many "dead" cards that don't do anything by themselves? Are there too many card-specific interactions (such as arbor elf and the enchantment really only being effective on a basic forest) which mean drawing the wrong thing puts you at risk of a blowout? Can we be explosive even with a half-bad hand? If we get behind do we have outs to get back in the game? If games go long can we blow them out through removal and counters? CAN WE BEAT AFFINITY?
One thing that surprised me the most. Creatures stick in modern. I didn't see a single bolt in the whole tournament except the ones i was running. I saw precisely one path to exile. Everything else was karns, arcbound ravagers, restoration angels and treetop villages. A couple of affinity players ran galvanic blast, which is a solid choice. There's been a huge shift to where the metagame is now fast aggro/combo, or control/combo. I think our nykthos deck stands a chance.
But through these long games of topdecking, i thought to myself, sticking any kind of large threat here just wins. They have no cards in hand. A threat on the board beats nearly all potential topdecks.
So with that in mind it makes me like chord more, as a maindeck choice. Chord for elesh norn or wurmcoil straight up beats affinity. How early can we feasibly do that? Run enough mana dorks and it seems reasonable.
Regarding the plow under strategy- i bought 4 primal command last night and rate them highly vs the decks i saw at the ptq. I don't however think plow works vs affinity, as they just vomit their hand onto the board. Gaining 7 life and bouncing a thing is good. Gaining 7 life and fetching a wurmcoil engine is very good. Blocking etched champions is a MUST, if we havent drawn into genesis wave.
Primal command seems awesome in the metagame i saw yesterday, simply awesome. Plow seems like sideboard strategy. Chord seems like it should be way up there in terms of things we do with our mana. Genesis wave (if we can resolve it) is our "scapeshift" - a one card combo. I wouldn't rely on it early in the game. If they have remands you just feel sad.
As far as creatures go, i like courser of kruphix. It seemed yesterday like having one on the board would have been good in most games. Wall of roots also seems decent. Garruk seems like a windmill slam and i can see why jund is electing to maindeck him now. The time is right.
Anyway i'm babbling. My point is i'm going to revise my version of the deck. Chording for game enders is still the main play. Genesis wave is the combo win (but also a good value play) and i'm jamming the full 4 primal commmand in there to wreck the decks i saw yesterday and strengthen our strategy with the search/bounce.
If i can get the deck to a place i like, i'm going to run it at the next ptq. I'm done with control decks at large events. Games going to time and stuff doesnt leave you in a good state to continue through the day.
I can only say that I noticed stuff like that before. I didn't like some decklists posted here that looked like they were all in on combo. That is why I started playing more grindy aproach. I just sometimes drew all those burning tree emissarys without nykthos, and it really sucked. I might reaproach them with this snake guy that makes shamans into sol rings, however question is: when would I chord / search with command for him? Do I need him?
I was popularizing Primal Command from a start. It has 4 relevant options, is always at least 2 for 1.
I totally agree with you on a plow under. It might not be good in a maindeck, however I still like it as a 1 or 2 of in sideboard.
Couser of Krupnix has been fenomental for me. It is really good in modern with all fetchlands flying around, mostly not because of lifegain, however because of fixing your draw spells. Dont like this manadork on top of your deck? Lets just shuffle it away and hope for something better next time!
Great thinking about genesis wave, primal command and chord. Finally some more people see, how primal command is one of the better things to do in this deck. Not because of this "primal lock", but because how flexible it is. I however still think we need to clasify all those cards as a "finishers", and figure out the correct number of those in a deck (I made a summarise on last page), to not flood with them without having mana. Your point about Genesis Wave is cool in my opinion. Generaly speaking, if you dont want to see a card early, you should play it as a 2 of, as 4 = want on every hand, 3 = want on early game, 2 = want later, 1 = specific answer. I can see playing 4 commands, 2-3 chord of calling and 2 genesis waves.
Maybe before revising your deck you could answer my question about correct ratios in this deck? Enablers/Finishers ratio maybe?
Hi Pedros! In recent days I've begun to test your list with the splash of white! I wanted to ask if you had recently made significant changes with respect to your last list posted in the old primer!
I like the list a lot, especially for the chord convocation path of exile and restoration angel is unpredictable deck! the only card that leaves me a bit puzzled is Polukranos MD! I'd like you to explain to me why just him and that MU improves significantly, please!
Great thinking about genesis wave, primal command and chord. Finally some more people see, how primal command is one of the better things to do in this deck. Not because of this "primal lock", but because how flexible it is. I however still think we need to clasify all those cards as a "finishers", and figure out the correct number of those in a deck (I made a summarise on last page), to not flood with them without having mana. Your point about Genesis Wave is cool in my opinion. Generaly speaking, if you dont want to see a card early, you should play it as a 2 of, as 4 = want on every hand, 3 = want on early game, 2 = want later, 1 = specific answer. I can see playing 4 commands, 2-3 chord of calling and 2 genesis waves.
Maybe before revising your deck you could answer my question about correct ratios in this deck? Enablers/Finishers ratio maybe?
i'm not sure those are rules you can apply in every situation. for instance, Wave is generally good as a value play in an "i win next turn, let's see what you've got" kind of way. it also helps you get ahead and stay ahead.
i think in this deck, 3 waves is probably more often than not correct. i'm only running 2, just as an experiment, with 1 or 2 genesis hydras in there for value. i like the extra devotion you can accrue with hydra, while progressing your board plan (and let's face it, having a big fatty as well). also the uncounterable "whatever" from the top of your deck is always going to be heavy value. the blue decks i saw at the PTQ were all about grinding out incremental advantage. with hydra you just kind of blow that idea away. and then even if they path it, you get a land and cast something bigger next turn. derp.
finding (to my surprise) that the format was fairly low on removal in general makes me thing that decks like this, utilising the correct creatures, and also other decks like Soul Sisters, will have a temporary resurgence.
for me, the next ptq is either going to be soul sisters, Burn (the simplest combo deck, lol), affinity (if you can't beat them, join them) or Nykthos Wave.
tough choices. i'll give you guys an updated list from my neck of the woods when i've had time to figure out what it all means.
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Imo Chord really shines if you're going down the grindy road with tons of value creatures such as Resto, Finks etc. I've play tested with Chord quite a bit in the last couple of days and when I had a ton of mana available I often thought to myself what would I rather cast, Chord or Wave for 6. Card advantage that Wave brings is just too good for me to pass up, instant speed and convoke are great but in the current meta full of combo and aggro decks the speed and advantage that wave brings (even if casted for 4) is better than Chord IMO.
For me it all comes down to Wave vs Chord, both are cards that need to be build around to really shine and I just can't see both of them supplement each other while not hampering the rest of the deck.
really? i mean they are both big green spells that cost XGGG, and they want to be cast for lost of mana. they effectively do the same thing (i.e. disrupt your opponent or win on the spot) so why not treat them similarly?
the only difference really is how to generate the mana. chord LOVES wall of roots. wave doesn't really care where the mana comes from.
moving forward - i have a crazy idea that just might work.
most decks' enchantment/land removal is in their sideboard, right? they are also probably going to side out their "small creature" removal, because it does basically nothing against us.
well why don't we go with a game 1 plan of forest, enchant forest, arbor elf make a million mana.
and then for game 2 we side out the enchantment ramp and stick in 4 noble hierarch or something, instead. they side in blank cards, we side in live cards, and we combo off more or less unimpeded.
i think it's perfectly viable not necessarily to attack their strategies game 2 but to just make a bunch of their cards dead.
the only caveat is you'd have to put 4x wall of roots in the main for sure. you can't spend any more than 4-6 sideboard slots on the swap strategy.
also i really think we need boseiju, who shelters all not only in the main (probably one copy) but in the board as well (second copy) because game one, loads of decks pack a crap-tonne of counterspells. scapeshift plays somewhere in the region of 13 effective counterspells maindeck, and can bring in even more against combo. if we only have one genesis wave in our hand, it needs to resolve no matter what.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Folks, in case you haven't heard, we're on the watch list for demotion from the Established forum. The deck just isn't putting up the results required in order fort he deck to stay here and if it stays that way by the next B&R announcement, we go back to the Deck Ideas forum.
So this is the call to arms. If you play MTGO, play the hell out of the deck. Play in as many Dailies and Premier events as your wallet and time allows. If you have PTQs to play in, or if you can go to an SCG event on a Sunday, rock the deck. Most importantly, post your results here! Tell us your deck list, what your matchups were, how you side boarded, funny stories, whatever! Just post your results.
For those of us who don't grind the big events but still play the deck, help each their out. Comment on card choices, side boarding options, match up advice, whatever. Just do what you can to keep this thread in this forum. I was part of this thread before it got promoted and I want to keep it here, if not take it up to the Proven forum. We move up, not down!
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i was there as well. shame i didn't get to play against you!
like you, i've seen too much of a field that has instant-speed answers maindeck to wave/hoof. it's a neat idea but i can't help but feel like there must be a more elegant solution. sure, it wins sometimes, but in the real world where you don't always draw the cards you need, have to mull to 6 or 5, and your opponent has disruption, i feel like we need something a bit more decisive, sneaky and/or versatile. this is why i've gone down to 3 waves maindeck currently and am rocking the chords/commands. garruk also takes pride of place when it comes to finishers. ultimate garruk has been a big turn 4 or 5 for me a few times.
about vexing shusher. has anyone ever considered this guy for maindeck utility? i think this deck's weakness might be a weak game 1 vs blue decks. if we can clinch game 1 vs any blue deck, they'll have a hard time winning the following 2 games as it gives us more than once chance to get a big combo win off. i'm strongly considering boosting the deck in the manner and running 2-4 shushers in the main. they provide devotion, are cheap, have good utility and at the worst can beat for 2 if you've got them under a command lock. and in the messy metagame i saw yesterday, an uncounterable 2/2 for 2 is actually not that bad. so many empty board states with people holding up counters, it was insane. if you could break that stalemate it would be sweet.
also it taps for G or R when convoking, and you can do it as soon as you play it in response to a bolt or path from your opponent. i like.
against control, i think shusher into plow under is how we beat them. they just can't do squat if they get stuck at 3 or lower lands. we race for 8 mana and just slam shusher. once on the board we can retain priority and cast chord for 2, primal command or plow under (any would be decent) with shusher-backup. 8 mana isn't a stretch if we're on the play. if they tap out for anything early we just punish them. if we're on the play and they only have one mana open (let's say they cast a serum visions or something) we can return their two only lands to the top. it's probably the best card against them.
i saw three (yes three) affinity decks running spell pierce in the board yesterday. shusher might even be good in matchups we weren't expecting. but against twin, scapeshift, kiki pod, resto pod, uwr, uw, bug, delver, UW tron, U tron and a whole host of others, it seems good. that's probably most of the field.
my main concern is making that first game as inevitable as possible. if we can grab an easy first game, our overall win ratio would become so much better. with remand being one of the top cards played, this seems a worthwhile pursuit.
so in that vein, here's a tentative tournament list. i've tried to focus on what you want to see in your opener every game and what you only need to see once or twice.
why the singleton soul warden?
simple. if we play against Twin, game 1, they are going to try to play deceiver exarch at the end of our third turn. if it looks like you're facing a twin player, we need an early answer fetchable with the minimum of ramp at instant speed. Warden completely switches off exarch (they'll have to tap out to play twin for 2RR, so sticking a warden on the table stops them from comboing that turn and buys you time until they can remove it).
i can see warden becoming an important card going forward as it's a one-mana instantly tutorable answer to twin, which is a hard matchup especially when you're on the draw. this gives us an out, even if they have the absolute nut draw. could you ask for more? it's even a decent card to tutor for in other matchups. the incidental lifegain is decent enough, and you can witness the warden back and cast it for cheapy cheap.
anyway after some consideration that's what i'd probably run. i've forgone the card-draw-tacked-to-subpar-creatures and instead i've gone for versatility, survivability, uncounterable genesis waves/chords and a strong disruption plan if they get a slow-ish start (it lets us capitalise on them keeping a bad hand, for example).
nothing worse than a combo deck that can't find its single win condition and it gives an opponent plenty of time to draw out of keeping a poor hand. with our deck we punish people for keeping those hands. i like it.
against affinity, seeing as they have no actual counterspells or any kind of removal for elesh norn, our plan is to race up the mana, disrupting and blocking as we go, until we can afford to either hardcast or chord out Norn. once there, we basically win. after board affinity becomes a doddle. green is the best colour.
Good idea about Soul Warden, but maybe just play Essence Warden? It is green equivalent of Soul Warden. I would probably play 2 off them between md/sb if you want to go this way. However remember, they can just untap, bolt and combo off again. Wouldnt Path to Exile do the trick? Remember you dont have to beat everything game 1 if you have good sb plan.
I totally agree with Michael Jacob about Vexing Shusher. It looks good but isn't reliable. Why? Because of situation like that:
You play a spell you want to resolve with 1 mana up.
Opponent Lightning bolt shusher in response.
You pay mana to make spell uncounterable in response.
Opponent counters in response.
Btw how do you like Wall of Roots Purklefluff? It looks decent in a BTE slot, works same with Nykthos, better with Chord, however cant attack (which might be relevant with Hoof/Elesh/Garruk).
I dont however understand this:
i've seen too much of a field that has instant-speed answers maindeck to wave/hoof.
I only see Command Tap/Draw as an instant-speed answer pre board. And post board Craterhoof is sideboarded out most of the time, along with some number of genesis wave / enablers vs control (overextending to wrath is quite bad).
I ran in PTQ Milton Keynes yesterday with a Gw build, ending 4-5 but was my first time piloting the deck against a lot of matchups (had only tested tokens and affinity unfortunately).
First of all, welcome in thread! Good to hear your report.
I would like to hear from you about some of your deck choices if you dont mind.
I saw that you liked Restoration Angels, good to hear that! However didn't you feel like you have too many of them? 4 is ... extreme I love this card thou.
Similar about BTE. I always see this card as a 0-off or 4-off, as it is really good in multiples. How did you find this card?
How often did you Genesis Waved you deck or Primal-Locked them?
How was your manabase? Number of fetchlands was budget/availability reasons or testing results?
Also, why not just use Essence Warden? No need to splash white just for Soul Warden. Maybe you meant the green version.
I currently run this deck and haven't updated it yet to use chord or the white splash stuff. I'll have to post my current one once I get home to go through it. I just got a playset of Primal Command and Genesis Wave. Only have 2 Primeval Titans though. Also have a mix of Wistful Selkie, BTE, SRG, and Finks.
Edit: Oh, the guy had the nerve to try and counter something that he couldn't. I get it.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
i'm going to see if i can fit a singleton minamo into my 60. it'll mean running breeding pool but then actually, that might give me some incentive to consider coiling oracle which i always thought was a really interesting card choice. don't own any myself, so i'll see if i can trade for them.
they might be rubbish (hah!) but they might be amazing. testing awaits. i'd probably only run three anyway.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Folks, in case you haven't heard, we're on the watch list for demotion from the Established forum. The deck just isn't putting up the results required in order fort he deck to stay here and if it stays that way by the next B&R announcement, we go back to the Deck Ideas forum.
So this is the call to arms. If you play MTGO, play the hell out of the deck. Play in as many Dailies and Premier events as your wallet and time allows. If you have PTQs to play in, or if you can go to an SCG event on a Sunday, rock the deck. Most importantly, post your results here! Tell us your deck list, what your matchups were, how you side boarded, funny stories, whatever! Just post your results.
For those of us who don't grind the big events but still play the deck, help each their out. Comment on card choices, side boarding options, match up advice, whatever. Just do what you can to keep this thread in this forum. I was part of this thread before it got promoted and I want to keep it here, if not take it up to the Proven forum. We move up, not down!
I will be purchasing my deck this month and will begin playing as many dai
Folks, in case you haven't heard, we're on the watch list for demotion from the Established forum. The deck just isn't putting up the results required in order fort he deck to stay here and if it stays that way by the next B&R announcement, we go back to the Deck Ideas forum.
So this is the call to arms. If you play MTGO, play the hell out of the deck. Play in as many Dailies and Premier events as your wallet and time allows. If you have PTQs to play in, or if you can go to an SCG event on a Sunday, rock the deck. Most importantly, post your results here! Tell us your deck list, what your matchups were, how you side boarded, funny stories, whatever! Just post your results.
For those of us who don't grind the big events but still play the deck, help each their out. Comment on card choices, side boarding options, match up advice, whatever. Just do what you can to keep this thread in this forum. I was part of this thread before it got promoted and I want to keep it here, if not take it up to the Proven forum. We move up, not down!
Thank you for posting this. This is extremely important. I will be purchasing the remainder of my deck online (have it in paper, but not on MTGO) and will play as many dailies as I can around my company's schedule. Hopefully this helps a little. Dailies can be a big boost to a deck if it continues to perform well; so if anyone can; by all means play away! We'll all do what we can for the deck we love
Since my build is more enchentment-oriented, I figured that 2 Magus would be a nice touch, as they can untap Nykthos or any enchanted land to increase significantly the quantity of mana I can generate on a single turn for a big Wave.
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So here is the decklist I have currently, I would like to see if anyone has any suggestions or comments, as I plan on going to a PTQ in about two weeks with it. I went with the elf version of the deck, and I do have access to chords, I just am unsure of putting them in.
Since my build is more enchentment-oriented, I figured that 2 Magus would be a nice touch, as they can untap Nykthos or any enchanted land to increase significantly the quantity of mana I can generate on a single turn for a big Wave.
I quite like this. You have the quick kill if drawn but the mid- to late-game with your walkers. I LOVE Sarkhan Vol. I had him in my build forever (as I believe he is the best means of giving all of your creatures haste off of a Main-Phase Genesis Wave). I'm interested to hear how this plays out; because I was was thinking of putting a Sarkhan or two back in my deck (in place of one of my Chords and/or "support" cards and/or 1 Nissa). Thanks for posting.
So here is the decklist I have currently, I would like to see if anyone has any suggestions or comments, as I plan on going to a PTQ in about two weeks with it. I went with the elf version of the deck, and I do have access to chords, I just am unsure of putting them in.
Interesting build! Seems pretty "tight". Have you ever tried Elvish Mystic in the place of the Birds? I know you lose a lot (a flying chump blocker, potential red mana source); but you also gain another elf for Erchdruid to both use and pump...of course, without Ezuri the elf count is not nearly as important; so Birds may actually be a better option (for the reasons above). Either way, extremely interesting. Good luck at your PTQ!
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Yes. Very yes. Did we just break the deck? Nykthos, minamo-nykthos, garruk-nykthos. Million mana?
As the tournament continued, people dropped, and the games got quicker. All the durdly control decks suffered at he hands of affinity and aggro rock and couldnt maintain their win ratios. I played several long hard fought games, eaking out advantage, winning basically four games in a row, but then fell to two affinity decks at the end. I gave a full tournament report over on the scapeshift thread in proven:modern.
Anyway why am i bringing this up.
Throughout the tournament, people were drawing awful hands left right and centre. Nobody (apart from one dude i saw) drew a 'god hand' and the games were messy, with people frantically trying to draw into something useful.
I think this reality needs to be brought home into the process of streamlining the deck. Are there too many "dead" cards that don't do anything by themselves? Are there too many card-specific interactions (such as arbor elf and the enchantment really only being effective on a basic forest) which mean drawing the wrong thing puts you at risk of a blowout? Can we be explosive even with a half-bad hand? If we get behind do we have outs to get back in the game? If games go long can we blow them out through removal and counters? CAN WE BEAT AFFINITY?
One thing that surprised me the most. Creatures stick in modern. I didn't see a single bolt in the whole tournament except the ones i was running. I saw precisely one path to exile. Everything else was karns, arcbound ravagers, restoration angels and treetop villages. A couple of affinity players ran galvanic blast, which is a solid choice. There's been a huge shift to where the metagame is now fast aggro/combo, or control/combo. I think our nykthos deck stands a chance.
But through these long games of topdecking, i thought to myself, sticking any kind of large threat here just wins. They have no cards in hand. A threat on the board beats nearly all potential topdecks.
So with that in mind it makes me like chord more, as a maindeck choice. Chord for elesh norn or wurmcoil straight up beats affinity. How early can we feasibly do that? Run enough mana dorks and it seems reasonable.
Regarding the plow under strategy- i bought 4 primal command last night and rate them highly vs the decks i saw at the ptq. I don't however think plow works vs affinity, as they just vomit their hand onto the board. Gaining 7 life and bouncing a thing is good. Gaining 7 life and fetching a wurmcoil engine is very good. Blocking etched champions is a MUST, if we havent drawn into genesis wave.
Primal command seems awesome in the metagame i saw yesterday, simply awesome. Plow seems like sideboard strategy. Chord seems like it should be way up there in terms of things we do with our mana. Genesis wave (if we can resolve it) is our "scapeshift" - a one card combo. I wouldn't rely on it early in the game. If they have remands you just feel sad.
As far as creatures go, i like courser of kruphix. It seemed yesterday like having one on the board would have been good in most games. Wall of roots also seems decent. Garruk seems like a windmill slam and i can see why jund is electing to maindeck him now. The time is right.
Anyway i'm babbling. My point is i'm going to revise my version of the deck. Chording for game enders is still the main play. Genesis wave is the combo win (but also a good value play) and i'm jamming the full 4 primal commmand in there to wreck the decks i saw yesterday and strengthen our strategy with the search/bounce.
If i can get the deck to a place i like, i'm going to run it at the next ptq. I'm done with control decks at large events. Games going to time and stuff doesnt leave you in a good state to continue through the day.
I can only say that I noticed stuff like that before. I didn't like some decklists posted here that looked like they were all in on combo. That is why I started playing more grindy aproach. I just sometimes drew all those burning tree emissarys without nykthos, and it really sucked. I might reaproach them with this snake guy that makes shamans into sol rings, however question is: when would I chord / search with command for him? Do I need him?
I was popularizing Primal Command from a start. It has 4 relevant options, is always at least 2 for 1.
I totally agree with you on a plow under. It might not be good in a maindeck, however I still like it as a 1 or 2 of in sideboard.
Couser of Krupnix has been fenomental for me. It is really good in modern with all fetchlands flying around, mostly not because of lifegain, however because of fixing your draw spells. Dont like this manadork on top of your deck? Lets just shuffle it away and hope for something better next time!
Great thinking about genesis wave, primal command and chord. Finally some more people see, how primal command is one of the better things to do in this deck. Not because of this "primal lock", but because how flexible it is. I however still think we need to clasify all those cards as a "finishers", and figure out the correct number of those in a deck (I made a summarise on last page), to not flood with them without having mana. Your point about Genesis Wave is cool in my opinion. Generaly speaking, if you dont want to see a card early, you should play it as a 2 of, as 4 = want on every hand, 3 = want on early game, 2 = want later, 1 = specific answer. I can see playing 4 commands, 2-3 chord of calling and 2 genesis waves.
Maybe before revising your deck you could answer my question about correct ratios in this deck? Enablers/Finishers ratio maybe?
I like the list a lot, especially for the chord convocation path of exile and restoration angel is unpredictable deck! the only card that leaves me a bit puzzled is Polukranos MD! I'd like you to explain to me why just him and that MU improves significantly, please!
i'm not sure those are rules you can apply in every situation. for instance, Wave is generally good as a value play in an "i win next turn, let's see what you've got" kind of way. it also helps you get ahead and stay ahead.
i think in this deck, 3 waves is probably more often than not correct. i'm only running 2, just as an experiment, with 1 or 2 genesis hydras in there for value. i like the extra devotion you can accrue with hydra, while progressing your board plan (and let's face it, having a big fatty as well). also the uncounterable "whatever" from the top of your deck is always going to be heavy value. the blue decks i saw at the PTQ were all about grinding out incremental advantage. with hydra you just kind of blow that idea away. and then even if they path it, you get a land and cast something bigger next turn. derp.
finding (to my surprise) that the format was fairly low on removal in general makes me thing that decks like this, utilising the correct creatures, and also other decks like Soul Sisters, will have a temporary resurgence.
for me, the next ptq is either going to be soul sisters, Burn (the simplest combo deck, lol), affinity (if you can't beat them, join them) or Nykthos Wave.
tough choices. i'll give you guys an updated list from my neck of the woods when i've had time to figure out what it all means.
really? i mean they are both big green spells that cost XGGG, and they want to be cast for lost of mana. they effectively do the same thing (i.e. disrupt your opponent or win on the spot) so why not treat them similarly?
the only difference really is how to generate the mana. chord LOVES wall of roots. wave doesn't really care where the mana comes from.
moving forward - i have a crazy idea that just might work.
most decks' enchantment/land removal is in their sideboard, right? they are also probably going to side out their "small creature" removal, because it does basically nothing against us.
well why don't we go with a game 1 plan of forest, enchant forest, arbor elf make a million mana.
and then for game 2 we side out the enchantment ramp and stick in 4 noble hierarch or something, instead. they side in blank cards, we side in live cards, and we combo off more or less unimpeded.
i think it's perfectly viable not necessarily to attack their strategies game 2 but to just make a bunch of their cards dead.
the only caveat is you'd have to put 4x wall of roots in the main for sure. you can't spend any more than 4-6 sideboard slots on the swap strategy.
also i really think we need boseiju, who shelters all not only in the main (probably one copy) but in the board as well (second copy) because game one, loads of decks pack a crap-tonne of counterspells. scapeshift plays somewhere in the region of 13 effective counterspells maindeck, and can bring in even more against combo. if we only have one genesis wave in our hand, it needs to resolve no matter what.
So this is the call to arms. If you play MTGO, play the hell out of the deck. Play in as many Dailies and Premier events as your wallet and time allows. If you have PTQs to play in, or if you can go to an SCG event on a Sunday, rock the deck. Most importantly, post your results here! Tell us your deck list, what your matchups were, how you side boarded, funny stories, whatever! Just post your results.
For those of us who don't grind the big events but still play the deck, help each their out. Comment on card choices, side boarding options, match up advice, whatever. Just do what you can to keep this thread in this forum. I was part of this thread before it got promoted and I want to keep it here, if not take it up to the Proven forum. We move up, not down!
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Standard BUG Control
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like you, i've seen too much of a field that has instant-speed answers maindeck to wave/hoof. it's a neat idea but i can't help but feel like there must be a more elegant solution. sure, it wins sometimes, but in the real world where you don't always draw the cards you need, have to mull to 6 or 5, and your opponent has disruption, i feel like we need something a bit more decisive, sneaky and/or versatile. this is why i've gone down to 3 waves maindeck currently and am rocking the chords/commands. garruk also takes pride of place when it comes to finishers. ultimate garruk has been a big turn 4 or 5 for me a few times.
about vexing shusher. has anyone ever considered this guy for maindeck utility? i think this deck's weakness might be a weak game 1 vs blue decks. if we can clinch game 1 vs any blue deck, they'll have a hard time winning the following 2 games as it gives us more than once chance to get a big combo win off. i'm strongly considering boosting the deck in the manner and running 2-4 shushers in the main. they provide devotion, are cheap, have good utility and at the worst can beat for 2 if you've got them under a command lock. and in the messy metagame i saw yesterday, an uncounterable 2/2 for 2 is actually not that bad. so many empty board states with people holding up counters, it was insane. if you could break that stalemate it would be sweet.
also it taps for G or R when convoking, and you can do it as soon as you play it in response to a bolt or path from your opponent. i like.
against control, i think shusher into plow under is how we beat them. they just can't do squat if they get stuck at 3 or lower lands. we race for 8 mana and just slam shusher. once on the board we can retain priority and cast chord for 2, primal command or plow under (any would be decent) with shusher-backup. 8 mana isn't a stretch if we're on the play. if they tap out for anything early we just punish them. if we're on the play and they only have one mana open (let's say they cast a serum visions or something) we can return their two only lands to the top. it's probably the best card against them.
i saw three (yes three) affinity decks running spell pierce in the board yesterday. shusher might even be good in matchups we weren't expecting. but against twin, scapeshift, kiki pod, resto pod, uwr, uw, bug, delver, UW tron, U tron and a whole host of others, it seems good. that's probably most of the field.
my main concern is making that first game as inevitable as possible. if we can grab an easy first game, our overall win ratio would become so much better. with remand being one of the top cards played, this seems a worthwhile pursuit.
so in that vein, here's a tentative tournament list. i've tried to focus on what you want to see in your opener every game and what you only need to see once or twice.
4x wall of roots
4x utopia sprawl
4x garruk wildspeaker
2x vexing shusher
2x courser of kruphix
4x eternal witness
3x chord of calling
3x genesis wave
1x soul warden
1x spellskite
1x primeval titan
1x elesh norn, grand cenobite
1x craterhoof behemoth
4x nykthos, shrine to nyx
3x temple garden
2x misty rainforest
4x verdant catacombs
1x kessig wolf run
7x forest
the sideboard is in construction.
why the singleton soul warden?
simple. if we play against Twin, game 1, they are going to try to play deceiver exarch at the end of our third turn. if it looks like you're facing a twin player, we need an early answer fetchable with the minimum of ramp at instant speed. Warden completely switches off exarch (they'll have to tap out to play twin for 2RR, so sticking a warden on the table stops them from comboing that turn and buys you time until they can remove it).
i can see warden becoming an important card going forward as it's a one-mana instantly tutorable answer to twin, which is a hard matchup especially when you're on the draw. this gives us an out, even if they have the absolute nut draw. could you ask for more? it's even a decent card to tutor for in other matchups. the incidental lifegain is decent enough, and you can witness the warden back and cast it for cheapy cheap.
anyway after some consideration that's what i'd probably run. i've forgone the card-draw-tacked-to-subpar-creatures and instead i've gone for versatility, survivability, uncounterable genesis waves/chords and a strong disruption plan if they get a slow-ish start (it lets us capitalise on them keeping a bad hand, for example).
nothing worse than a combo deck that can't find its single win condition and it gives an opponent plenty of time to draw out of keeping a poor hand. with our deck we punish people for keeping those hands. i like it.
against affinity, seeing as they have no actual counterspells or any kind of removal for elesh norn, our plan is to race up the mana, disrupting and blocking as we go, until we can afford to either hardcast or chord out Norn. once there, we basically win. after board affinity becomes a doddle. green is the best colour.
Good idea about Soul Warden, but maybe just play Essence Warden? It is green equivalent of Soul Warden. I would probably play 2 off them between md/sb if you want to go this way. However remember, they can just untap, bolt and combo off again. Wouldnt Path to Exile do the trick? Remember you dont have to beat everything game 1 if you have good sb plan.
I totally agree with Michael Jacob about Vexing Shusher. It looks good but isn't reliable. Why? Because of situation like that:
You play a spell you want to resolve with 1 mana up.
Opponent Lightning bolt shusher in response.
You pay mana to make spell uncounterable in response.
Opponent counters in response.
Btw how do you like Wall of Roots Purklefluff? It looks decent in a BTE slot, works same with Nykthos, better with Chord, however cant attack (which might be relevant with Hoof/Elesh/Garruk).
I dont however understand this:
I only see Command Tap/Draw as an instant-speed answer pre board. And post board Craterhoof is sideboarded out most of the time, along with some number of genesis wave / enablers vs control (overextending to wrath is quite bad).
First of all, welcome in thread! Good to hear your report.
I would like to hear from you about some of your deck choices if you dont mind.
I saw that you liked Restoration Angels, good to hear that! However didn't you feel like you have too many of them? 4 is ... extreme I love this card thou.
Similar about BTE. I always see this card as a 0-off or 4-off, as it is really good in multiples. How did you find this card?
How often did you Genesis Waved you deck or Primal-Locked them?
How was your manabase? Number of fetchlands was budget/availability reasons or testing results?
Vexing Shusher is uncounterable.
Also, why not just use Essence Warden? No need to splash white just for Soul Warden. Maybe you meant the green version.
I currently run this deck and haven't updated it yet to use chord or the white splash stuff. I'll have to post my current one once I get home to go through it. I just got a playset of Primal Command and Genesis Wave. Only have 2 Primeval Titans though. Also have a mix of Wistful Selkie, BTE, SRG, and Finks.
Edit: Oh, the guy had the nerve to try and counter something that he couldn't. I get it.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
yes of course. i have them in my binder and completely forgot! essence warden it is.
ok so drop one shusher, gain one craterhoof behemoth in the main. gives me the genesis wave win.
EDIT: Minamo+Nykthos is pretty awesome!
Dont forget to write what deck you are running and report results
they might be rubbish (hah!) but they might be amazing. testing awaits. i'd probably only run three anyway.
I will be purchasing my deck this month and will begin playing as many dai
Thank you for posting this. This is extremely important. I will be purchasing the remainder of my deck online (have it in paper, but not on MTGO) and will play as many dailies as I can around my company's schedule. Hopefully this helps a little. Dailies can be a big boost to a deck if it continues to perform well; so if anyone can; by all means play away! We'll all do what we can for the deck we love
2 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Arbor Elf
2 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Wistful Selkie
3 Eternal Witness
3 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Fertile Ground
4 Genesis Wave
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Sarkhan Vol
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
Since my build is more enchentment-oriented, I figured that 2 Magus would be a nice touch, as they can untap Nykthos or any enchanted land to increase significantly the quantity of mana I can generate on a single turn for a big Wave.
4 arbor elf
3 birds of paradise
4 elvish visionary
4 burning-tree emissary
4 elvish archdruid
3 primeval titan
2 craterhoof behemoth
3 eternal witness
4 garruk wildspeaker
2 primal command
3 genesis wave
4 utopia sprawl
Lands
2 stomping ground
1 kessig wolf run
4 nykthos, shrine to nyx
13 forest
1 ratchet bomb
1 ghost quarter
1 scavenging ooze
1 ancient grudge
2 dryad militant
1 krosan grip
2 relic of progenitus
1 nature's claim
1 back to nature
2 defense grid
1 overwhelming stampede
1 choke
I quite like this. You have the quick kill if drawn but the mid- to late-game with your walkers. I LOVE Sarkhan Vol. I had him in my build forever (as I believe he is the best means of giving all of your creatures haste off of a Main-Phase Genesis Wave). I'm interested to hear how this plays out; because I was was thinking of putting a Sarkhan or two back in my deck (in place of one of my Chords and/or "support" cards and/or 1 Nissa). Thanks for posting.
Interesting build! Seems pretty "tight". Have you ever tried Elvish Mystic in the place of the Birds? I know you lose a lot (a flying chump blocker, potential red mana source); but you also gain another elf for Erchdruid to both use and pump...of course, without Ezuri the elf count is not nearly as important; so Birds may actually be a better option (for the reasons above). Either way, extremely interesting. Good luck at your PTQ!