These are all just giant creatures that offer no card advantage, mana, or flexibility for our combo beyond devotion to Nykthos. These all seem like cards that would fit into a completely different deck. That deck would be a lot better against "fair" decks with Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, and/or Cryptic Command but significantly worse against turn 4 combo decks like Goryo's Vengeance, Pyromaster's Ascension, Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, Tron, Scapeshift, and Burn.
Tooth and Nail does allow us to kill easily from nine mana, as a Genesis Wave for six has a low chance of missing. The problem is I often cast Genesis Wave for five to eight mana just for value, something Tooth and Nail is unable to do. Adding a second Craterhoof Behemoth to search for does not guarantee wins, so you would need to add the combo of Xenagos God of Revels and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as the win condition. Even this combination is vulnerable to Pestermite / Deceiver Exarch / Cryptic Command tapping, so this is still not 100%. Many deckbuilders underestimate the impact of adding blank draws like these to the deck, so I believe in its current configuration and that Tooth and Nail is not good enough
Similar to Elves in Legacy, Mono-Green Devotion uses a multitude of green mana producers to reach a critical mass and end the game with Craterhoof Behemoth instead. There are two scenarios that often come up—you either have little going on and a Regal Force drawing a card will not save you or have a lot going on in and Craterhoof Behemoth would just kill them.
Quote from (cryogen)EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
Quote from Tongz »gnuhouse, how much discussion was there in the previous thread about Chord of Calling?
I know there was a lot of talk about a white splash, but was Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite brought up either?
The 4 Chord + 1 Elesh package seems very powerful against most of the metagame.
In addition Chord makes me confident about maindecking Acidic Slime and one-ofs like Spellskite in the main as opposed to the SB.
I'm not sure our G1 needs much help, but it'd definitely make the deck more flexible.
4 Chords might be a but much though. 3 might be the right number.
Quote from purklefluff »elvish visionary actually seems half-decent in a build running 4x chord of calling.
i think i prefer it to the other devotion-heavy-but-less-efficient cards that people have been running here.
i don't think you necessarily need to go nuts on the devotion thing. generally once you slam a garruk on the table you've got at least 5 or 6 devotion, which is enough (with untaps) to make (usually) upwards of 12 or 16 mana from a nykthos plus mana dorks. and that's on the same turn as you drop garruk.
i think going crazy heavy on the devotion is a win-more tactic and i'd like to see a side-by-side comparison of a more consistent build vs. the devotion-heavy builds i've been seeing.
my thoughts are that once you get off a wave, as long as it's at least 7-10 cards (so 10-13 mana paid. easy enough) you can usually just keep waving through your entire deck, because you'll most likely drop a second garruk and an eternal witness, to untap your nythos, get back your wave and cast it all again.
also, i think the strength of the deck going forward is as a toolbox deck (in the same vein as pod), except with a combo win. utilising our superior mana ramping to chord out hate cards is a real strategy. playing big green fatties like primalcrux is not. sorry for the stompy fans. i just don't see it cutting it against Jund or Twin.
but with more tweaking, i think we have a legit deck. the power of instant-speed elesh norn, grand cenobite is real. that deals with creature decks. what beats combo? ruric thar, the unbowed?
also finally, i came to the conclusion last night while testing that when you get up to 17(ish) or more mana, you kind of just want to cast genesis hydra and get the uncounterable win condition from your deck. having a wave countered in the late game when you're regularly getting 20 or more mana is a huge blowout against us. hydra gets around this by effectively just getting the best card in our deck from the top 20 cards, and there's nothing they can do about it. it's not as explosive, but it's more resilient. i think we need a healthy dose of both, which is why i'm running 3x genesis wave and 2x genesis hydra
Quote from from="gnuhouse »" »
Quote from from="CurdBros »" »
Quote from purklefluff »
gnuhouse's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4x birds of paradise4x noble hierarch4x wall of roots2x elvish visionary3x eternal witness4x garruk wildspeaker4x chord of calling3x genesis wave1x spellskite1x thrun, the last troll2x obstinate baloth1x linvala, keeper of silence1x inferno titan1x primeval titan1x elesh norn, grand cenobite4x nykthos, shrine to nyx3x temple garden2x stomping ground1x overgrown tomb4x verdant catacombs2x kessig wolf run1x raging ravine7x forestSIDEBOARD:3x nature's claim (we hate blood moon)2x ancient grudge2x boseiju, who shelters all1x spellskite1x ethersworn canonist1x relic of progenitus1x inferno titan1x shriekmaw1x rakdos charm2x slaughter games
Quote from katrenary »I've seen people mention this in the old thread and now this one about possibly decking themselves with a big wave by hitting too many selkies/regal force. Genesis Wave is a may ability. You don't have to put everything you flip over into play. I've done it before where I flipped over the deck and then just put all the card drawers in the bin (and you know killed them with Hoof Power). Just wanted to make sure that people reading this primer know that.
Also, thanks for the primer. I've been playing this deck off and on for a few months and it is hilarious to see the look on people's faces when you pick up 20+ cards from the deck and plop them onto the battlefield. An being able to just top deck something silly (like Prime/Wave) after going empty handed is demoralizing for some people.
Quote from gnuhouse »I'm just going to throw this out there as my opinion on Chord.
I look at this as a Chord vs Genesis Wave discussion, much like Genesis Wave vs Tooth and Nail. Tooth and Nail looks like a much better card than Genesis Wave at first glance; you can tutor for the exact cards you want and put them into play immediately, and for the same mana cost as a 6 card Genesis Wave. The thing about Genesis Wave is the flexibility, in that you can cast it for anywhere between 4 and 7 for value, and you can get something other than two creatures (land, enchantments, and planeswalkers). Sometimes tutoring up two creatures isn't what you want to be doing because it doesn't win you the game, whereas you can start to chain Genesis Waves and win the game almost on the spot.
So enough about Tooth and Nail, let's talk Chord of Calling.
I see the appeal of Chord; it's instant speed and let's us play more of a toolbox. We can, in theory, play around our weaknesses by having one-ofs in our deck, and tutor them up at a moment's notice. We have the ability to generate a lot of mana, and running upwards of 20 creatures with CMC of 3 or less, we can utilize Convoke at the same time.
Here are the two problems I see with Chord
1) It's an X spell that just doesn't win us the game. Yes, we can tutor up cards like Elesh Norn or Craterhoof Behemoth, but it just doesn't out and out win us the game. If I've got an X spell and the ability to run X up through the roof (either mana or Convoke), I want something that will win me the game on the spot.
A simple comparison. Let's call X=8. If I Chord, I grab Craterhoof. It comes into play, gives the team +X/+X. Great, but how big is X going to be? 2? 3? 4? Likely not that big. Further, if I tap any of my creatures to use Convoke (a definite plus for Chord), I lose them as attackers. Now what happens if I Genesis Wave for 8? I get up to 8 new permanents, one of which could be Craterhoof. I might also hit 7 other creatures, which makes my Craterhoof pump at least +7/+7 (so now I have a 12/12 trampling Behemoth, plus whatever other creatures attack). I could also hit Garruk, or a Nykthos, and keep on going. Eternal Witness lets me chain Waves, so the explosiveness of the Genesis Wave > the precision of the Chord of Calling
2) Dead cards. If we go the toolbox route, there's the likelihood of us having dead cards in our hand. Inferno Titan with only one red source? Elesh Norn with only one White source? Chord of Calling without mana dorks? What about these cards in your opening hand?
I'm not saying that there's not a spot for Chord, and maybe it's more of a midrange style deck (which is what I haven't advocated as I'm so deeply attached to the Genesis Wave version), but this is just my opinion
Quote from Pedros »
I would play minimum amount of "silver bullets" with Chord of Calling, and probably only in sideboard. Only good in almost any matchups are Scavenging Ooze, Polukranos and Restoration Angel and Ezuri, Renegade Leader in elf version. I dissagree with purklefluff about others: I dont think Thrun is any good in modern, dont like idea of main deck Linvala (much rather play Restoration Angel), Elesh Norn, Inferno Titan, Spellskite or Obstinate Baloth, as they dont go well with this kind of deck. I think I should qoute DarkestMage, when I asked about my deck on his stream: "If you want to get to use Chord of Calling for so many maindeck 1 offs, why dont just play pod?". I totally agree with it. Purklefluff, I think your deck would just look better if you would just to play pod.
Quote from purklefluff » »
1) polukranos in modern; it's not the "good in every matchup" that you so stated. it could be a potential 1-of, and left unchecked it's fine. but in terms of inevitability and enabling you to "go off" and protect your walkers, both thrun and baloth are miles better.
2) same goes for Ezuri. i don't see him being "good in almost any matchup". he doesn't do anything by himself at all.
3) restoration angel is typically awful by itself and situationally excellent with some kind of insane-value enter-the-battlefield effects. i don't see it doing anything here at all, although i personally like the card.
a) thrun is played in many sideboards, some maindecks and generally sees a lot of play in Tier 1 decks in modern. if you don't think he's good in the modern format, you need to go and watch some coverage, read some deck techs, i dunno what to say here. the evidence speaks volumes on how good he is. tier 1 playable, and he gives decent devotion? he's a surefire hit in this deck. he also combats one of the hardest matchups the deck has (control) so i think it's pretty important to give him a slot.
c) elesh norn is the single most effective hate card against the greatest number of tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks in the entire modern cardpool. you go and try to find me a better hate card for 7 mana or less, tutorable with chord of calling. you can't =P. if we're going to have a little toolboxing in the deck, she's the one card i'd make space for over any others.
d) inferno titan beats pod, jund, splinter twin and all the creature based decks. and it'll do it at instant speed if you have a chord. how is this bad? scapeshift plays 2 of them in their sideboard because they are the best, most aggressive thing you can do if you're ramping.
b) linvala. here are the decks that flat out lose to linvala if they can't draw into removal - Affinity, Pod, Splinter Twin.
and here's the decks that while they don't necessarily lose, they are hurt a lot - Jund, hatebears, zoo, Kibler's Naya, Griselbrand reanimator, plus any other random decks that play mana dorks, scavenging ooze or kiki-jiki.
she's also a 3/4 flyer. she'll steal games.
e) spellskite beats affinity, twin, scapeshift, bogles, TRON, pod, the list goes on. for X=2 off a chord you can preserve/protect your board state EoT before comboing off. seems legit to me.
f) obstinate baloth patches the deck's weaknesses while at the same time being an excellent devotion enabler and a great threat on board. it's basically the last piece of the puzzle. i'd consider running at least 1 in the main no matter what, if you have chords in the list.
1x elesh norn
1x inferno titan
i'd rather have these in my deck than any number of selkies and bad-by-themselves devotion cards. by being too single minded on a certain strategy, those devotion-heavy creatures dilute the deck more than my suggested toolbox creatures ever would. i see the same deckbuilding strategies employed by the young schoolkids at my local store. they are so eager to get their combination of cards going that they forget decks need resilience, good individual card-quality, answers, powerful topdecks and things like removal or disruption. if you ignore this need, then the nykthos deck won't ever be anything more than a tier-2 deck with some lucky finishes.
based on your evaluation of those cards above in the quote, i call into question your analysis of modern as a format, and what's viable.
your arguments about them being dead cards is also empty. saying linvala is a dead card vs. storm doesn't take account of what you'd be running instead. you're not going to have another genesis wave in linvala's slot. it'll probably just be a selkie or something, which is just as bad against storm. at least if you know you're playing against storm you can choose not to chord linvala out, and instead get aggressive with your plays into a huge genesis wave. the key to having these cards is that they give you choices. only having one line of play makes your deck cumbersome. it means it won't respond well to a variety of decks because you'll just try and do the same thing every time and when you don't draw a perfect hand, you'll have no way back into the game when your opponent capitalises on it.
even if you can make lots of mana, you're stuck until you draw a wave. if there are chords in the deck as well, it basically doubles your chances of drawing a win condition. this is important.
also, in my version, garruk often represents lethal damage on turn 4. that's pretty important too. jund decks are employing this strategy because it's that good.
anyway i didn't come here for theorycrafting or an argument. i came to help refine and improve a deck which looks to me to be the most exciting upcoming deck. i found myself in a position where i was able to observe and discern some ways in which the current decks were selling themselves short, and i presented a considered alternative taking into account the weaknesses of the deck in its current form, as well as the strengths of some of the cards available to it. to be told that "thrun is bad" or whatever is kind of weak, dude. let's have a proper discussion because bickering doesn't help anyone, and empty statements like that only get people irritated.
the REAL comparison, the "either/or" is as follows:
do you play sub-par 2/2s that draw you a card and provide some devotion, OR do you play chord of calling, which draws you exactly what you need.
why do you think i dropped down to 3 eternal witness? because by itself it's a terrible card. it needs other stuff to make it good, and when you topdeck it you feel bad. the same goes for all the other "construct a wonky combo" cards, put in the deck like components of a piece of IKEA furniture. if one bit's not there or it gets disrupted, the whole thing falls apart.