Hit the infinite combo today vs. Control..it is nice to have a combo available in an otherwise interactive deck.
For those that didn't know; you can use two Garruk's, a Witness, and a Temur Sabertooth to create infinite mana (which in turn can be infinite life/infinite loop with Witness/Command and/or infinite damage via Nylea or Wolf Run.)
Isnt two Garruks a witness and a sabertooth way harder to get than an Acolyte and a SBS?
Couple things:
- It is an incidental combo within a non-combo deck. The fact we have it is kinda "icing on the cake". More of a "that was fun" post than "we should build around this" deal.
- It actually wasn't that had to hit. I have a good amount of creature tutors and multiple ways to get a walker in the yard...that, and Primal Commamd buys us a good amount time. Against a majority of decks.
I didn't mean to suggest it was "the best" combo or even a reason to play the deck. Just an interesting point that it has such a combo (as it was not the intent of the deck). It won't be a major goal to "hit the combo" but in games where the line presents itself it is something I think is useful for those playing the deck to know about
P.S. Pelakka Wurm is an interesting suggestion. I could certainly see it being good against multiple opponents. Great idea!
In complete agreement about the combo...the deck wasn't built with any combo in mind. I just thought it was worth pointing out just in case others played a similar deck and the line presented itself.
The good news is that Witness and Garruk pretty much go in every devotion deck I play (and Sabertooth is a very versatile 1-2 of). I'm normally the one taking lesser-played (some may even say jammy) cards and making a combo deck out of it...and this time I built with mostly just "good stuff" devotion cards and a combo happened to be in it
But I completely agree. It's nice to have an incidental combo available; but it is something that will only arise on occasion.
Sorry for the confusing way I wrote it. Thanks (LordDarkview) for helping clarify. The deck is not a combo deck. It's just has a combo possibility through a random set of cards/interactions in the deck.
Ghostwslker...
The landfall variant is crazy interesting! I will absolutely be trying some of that out. As someone who was very high on Torekess Tracker; I can say he is amazing in any deck with Wave, fetch lands, and/or Primeval Titan.
I'll write more after I've tested it a bit and have a better grasp on the curve/play of the deck; but thanks for posting it. There are a lot of interesting ideas/interactions many of us could benefit from in the list.
Keep us informed on how it plays/competes if you test/play it in a tourney, league, FNM, etc.
Also, if you feel the deck starts moving too far from devotion (or it really does kinda get outside of what qualifies) I'm happy to help you make a Primer for your deck. Having said this; we have a great community of green/ramp Mages on here that are pretty active...so I try to stay pretty lax on what can be posted (as long as it's relevant and can add to the devotion archetype...it's all good
Keep us informed on how it plays/competes if you test/play it in a tourney, league, FNM, etc.
Also, if you feel the deck starts moving too far from devotion (or it really does kinda get outside of what qualifies) I'm happy to help you make a Primer for your deck. Having said this; we have a great community of green/ramp Mages on here that are pretty active...so I try to stay pretty lax on what can be posted (as long as it's relevant and can add to the devotion archetype...it's all good
I dont have any places to play modern competitively whithin an hour of where i live and i currently work every day so i dont get the chance to play it in a setting where i have a whole lot of variance, i have a few friends whi play Modern who i test with. (A Twingrove stompy, a Mardu Midrange, a burn, a BW tokens and a Slivers) and it reigns dominant over all of those with only a slight falter on turn five versus Slivers almost every game. Its consistent and does a great Craterhoof impression with Baru.
I would Love to make a primer for Mono-green landfall but i just cant get all of the necessary information to start a primer myself as i dont have MTGO (and for financial reasons dont plan to) i would appreciate help with a primer for landfall deck.
Barring that, i feel it could qualify as a Landfall/devotion deck. The given name for it has been Titanfall, with obvious reason.
But im rambling, basically my spin on landfall/devotion i feel it could add to devotion, and help with a primer for landfall would be amazing.
I was a fan of the Genesis Wave / Tooth and Nail builds. I think it is fun, and explosive.
I've been durdling around with the Primal Command build and here is what I've found to be really consistent and fun as well. I'm very sold on primal command being the fast interactions. A good turn 3 is getting a primal command off. A winning turn three is entwining tooth and nail. Which is possible in this deck.
Tooth and Nail also acts as search engines 5 and 6 to compliment Primal Command and get Temur Sabertooth out for bouncing shenanigans with E-Wit, Emrakul, Prime Time, etc. Plus being indestructible for the bounce cost is pretty nice.
Capable of turn three kills, infinite turns, and a few other cool interactions.
The sideboard is a work in progress, I feel like it needs to compliment what the main deck is built to do and be enabled by the engine. Still working on it.
I really should have given T&N in Command a bit more thought. I just like to throw Command anywhere, but they are both game-winning effects at a reasonable cost.
I guess what keeps me away from it is that I really don't want dead cards without T&N (Xenagos, Emrakul). While we can hardcast them, it's generally a lot harder to pull off. Even T&N itself is 9.
Still, I think that's a pretty good list that includes both. I wonder if a list that lacks the dead-draw search targets could still win off T&N? I suspect yes. It just might take an extra turn, and often not even that (Craterhoof).
I think if I ran the list above, I might try with -1 Xenagos, -1 Emrakul, -2 Sabertooth, +2 Witness, +1 Craterhoof, +1 [some undetermined creature].
Great list! It actually brought up a question I've had in the past that is one of like other's I put on:
Elvish Visionary or Wistful Selkie ?
I've played both, I like both.
Selkie can obviously generate huge sums of mana with Nykthos; but the downsides are that its not always cast -able "on turn" (if you hit Nykthos and/or Wolf Run and don't have enough green sources).
I've had many turn 3 Commands thanks to a Selkie....but Visionary can get there too if it draws into good stuff (sprawl, etc.)...obviously a lot of factors go into this.
Visionary is better with Temur Sabertooth...but Selkie is a 2/2...
I don't know if there is a set answer. As with all choices, it depends on your curve, mana/land choices, etc.; but most of us play similar cards at CMC's 1-3...so it is something many of us could discuss,
What are more pros and cons? Has anyone else played both? If so, which do you prefer? Why?
I've played both selkie and visionary, more pure devoted (×4 nykthos) build I like selkie better, the mana ramp build I like visionary (×2 nykthos). I tend to not have to wait on 3 mana and it helps me get out of a bad draw better, imo
Yeah. Also, I have this irrational hatred of Eldrazi. Wizards never managed to do them without breaking a fundamental game principle in a bad way.
Regarding Selkie vs Visionary, I vote for Caryatid. I don't run any, but the latter is a decent devotion adder and blocker (though it can't team up with Garruk to swing big).
Personally, I use Courser more. However that won't work for this discussion since it's not an actual cantrip.
One important point is that a turn 2 Selkie into a turn 3 Nykthos isn't better than a turn 2 Overgrowth with an Arbor Elf for hitting 5 mana. But again, it's not a cantrip. Worth pointing out, though.
Ha! I've had that exact discussion with multiple people at our LGS. I HATE Eldrazi! I have always had this weird distaste for Emrakul...it just "feels" so "not Magic" to me. Most likely it is just being salty because every wonky combo deck I've played and lost to in Modern seemed to focus only on getting Emrakul into play :). Having said that, it absolutely is a legal card; and it makes perfect sense to utilize it in a T&N list. I don't ever get mad a someone for playing it as it is a perfectly legal card.
Yeah...on the cantrip front; it can be difficult. There are multiple interactions for me to take into account:
1. Mana - like you said, an Overgrowth will work just as well as a Wistful Selkie to get to 5-mana by turn 3. Nykthos + Selkie is great in a long game; but in most cases Caryatid would be close to as good (while having greater toughness).
2. Temur Sabertooth - This is something that has occurred in many games...having a large sum of mana leads to being able to "bounce" your cantrip to draw extra cards....obviously Visionary would be best here (as his is the lowest cost to bounce/recast).
3. Woodland Bellower - Being able to tutor a Selkie, draw a card, and add 5-devotion and 8 power to the board is great in many match ups. Obviously in many cases I will grab an Eternal Witness or a Reverent Hunter (depending no the match up, what's in the yard, and/or state of the board/game) but there are cases where I'm best off increasing devotion and drawing a card. Visionary is weakest here.
I used to also utilize Selkie from time to time to generate blue mana via Nykthos (when I played Tidespout Tyrant); but that is a whole other discussion that doesn't apply here (just an idea for those playing hybrid cards).
I've had an interesting time "studying" the difference between the speed and power of cards (i.e. Fertile Ground and Elvish Visionary vs. Overgrowth and Wistful Selkie)...I'm not yet done with enough testing to have any "concrete" theories; but it is the item I'm questioning as I play this current deck more and more. The good news is that the current "Midrange" deck has a higher match win rate than any deck I've tested enough to develop results for yet!
Update on everything that happen since my last post.
went to the pptq beat 2 tron decks 2-0 both then got matched back to back against infect (10/90 in their favor) dropped and got some sleep.
following thursday modern night i went 1-4 (lots of aggro) since then i've 5-1 or 4-1 every week with one 5-0 im in the top 4 every week. And in case anyones curious my meta game is heavily competitive with most of the best modern players in florida with tournament results to back it up. We use to have 6 rounds at the thursday place but it got capped at 5 rounds (thank god).
The only thing that happened of note was the affinity player i played against last thursday in round 5 got a little salty with me when i said good games and that pissed me off. like serously your going to top deck thoughtseize the turn before i creeping corrsion you and YOUR going to give me ***** seriously? won 2-0, craterhoofed for 33 game one for the win and craterhoofed game 2 for over 100(hornet queen>into>craterhoof.
the only update to my deck is i swapped the ruric thar/bonfire for a third wistful selkie.
That's awesome! Thank you so much for posting. Please do post your deck every once and a while so we can just go back a page or two to see it. It's a HUGE deal to have someone playing in so many competitive matches and posting your experiences. We learn a lot from you.
Yeah, infect is tough. I'm testing against then tonight and will try to outline what works best. I've played 12 game-one's and 9 game 2/3's (post board) thus far (we tend to do a 12/24 spilt each time testing against a deck).
A few cards I've liked against them thus far have been:
1. Melina - obvious
2. Blood Moon - they use a ton of non-basics and an early moon slows them down.
3. Chandra Flamecaller - this has actually been incredible in general. I may be a little high on it now because I literally just got done testing against Merfolk; but I'm actually up to 2 copies now and it's a great card for some of our worst match ups.
4. Haze Frog - I haven't really got to the point of "infinite haze" that was discussed with ProTourPlayer; but it has been a useful card in two of the games this far.
I would like to get one form of turntable removal in the main; but (a) it may not exist and (b) I don't want to muddle the main deck to deal with our worst match up...
i sometimes wonder about dropping oath of nissa and just running serum visions instead. i also once saw a list run a couple gifts ungiven, and pact of negation comes to mind too
On the card draw front, and it always seems to come back around, Carven Caryatid works wonders in an aggressive meta. It's halfway between Visionary and Selkie in devotion, but easier to cast. I played against a lot of Naya Burn at my old LGS and that card was nuts against them. If only we had a green defender that could block islandwalkers. Speaking of losing, I've run into tokens a lot recently, and I'm going back to a few Silklash Spiders just to deal with it... Any other suggestions? Arbor Collosus? Cloud Thresher? Cloudcrown Oak? Avatar of the Resolute?
I have really been loving Chandra, Flamecaller...Its been better than I expected.
Chandra gives you wipes when you need them and card advantage/looting / huge damage when you don't. It's good in some of our worst match ups (Merfolk, Infect, etc)
I know it kills your dorks, but most times by the time I cast Chandra, I generally have enchantments, a walker, and/or creatures larger than X/4 so I gain a huge advantage with a wipe.
I do play a 1-of Polukranos as well and a Hornet Queen in the board... thus far I've felt like I've had enough for pesky flier
I have really been loving Chandra, Pyromaster...Its been better than I expected.
Chandra gives you wipes when you need them and card advantage/looting / huge damage when you don't. It's good in some of our worst match ups (Merfolk, Infect, etc)
I know it kills your dorks, but most times by the time I cast Chandra, I generally have enchantments, a walker, and/or creatures larger than X/4 so I gain a huge advantage with a wipe.
I do play a 1-of Polukranos as well and a Hornet Queen in the board... thus far I've felt like I've had enough for pesky flier
Flamecaller is like Titan: she's so powerful she just picks up games, whatever downside there may be. Pyromaster is... okay. Sometimes. She wouldn't be awful, but she's not very synergistic.
For killing fliers, I typically use Hornet Queen and Atarka these days.
Couple things:
- It is an incidental combo within a non-combo deck. The fact we have it is kinda "icing on the cake". More of a "that was fun" post than "we should build around this" deal.
- It actually wasn't that had to hit. I have a good amount of creature tutors and multiple ways to get a walker in the yard...that, and Primal Commamd buys us a good amount time. Against a majority of decks.
I didn't mean to suggest it was "the best" combo or even a reason to play the deck. Just an interesting point that it has such a combo (as it was not the intent of the deck). It won't be a major goal to "hit the combo" but in games where the line presents itself it is something I think is useful for those playing the deck to know about
P.S. Pelakka Wurm is an interesting suggestion. I could certainly see it being good against multiple opponents. Great idea!
Merfolk can be tough. I've utilized both Bonfire of the Damned and Silent Arbiter with success in the past against Merfolk.
LordDarkview...
In complete agreement about the combo...the deck wasn't built with any combo in mind. I just thought it was worth pointing out just in case others played a similar deck and the line presented itself.
The good news is that Witness and Garruk pretty much go in every devotion deck I play (and Sabertooth is a very versatile 1-2 of). I'm normally the one taking lesser-played (some may even say jammy) cards and making a combo deck out of it...and this time I built with mostly just "good stuff" devotion cards and a combo happened to be in it
But I completely agree. It's nice to have an incidental combo available; but it is something that will only arise on occasion.
Sorry for the confusing way I wrote it. Thanks (LordDarkview) for helping clarify. The deck is not a combo deck. It's just has a combo possibility through a random set of cards/interactions in the deck.
Ghostwslker...
The landfall variant is crazy interesting! I will absolutely be trying some of that out. As someone who was very high on Torekess Tracker; I can say he is amazing in any deck with Wave, fetch lands, and/or Primeval Titan.
I'll write more after I've tested it a bit and have a better grasp on the curve/play of the deck; but thanks for posting it. There are a lot of interesting ideas/interactions many of us could benefit from in the list.
Keep us informed on how it plays/competes if you test/play it in a tourney, league, FNM, etc.
Also, if you feel the deck starts moving too far from devotion (or it really does kinda get outside of what qualifies) I'm happy to help you make a Primer for your deck. Having said this; we have a great community of green/ramp Mages on here that are pretty active...so I try to stay pretty lax on what can be posted (as long as it's relevant and can add to the devotion archetype...it's all good
I dont have any places to play modern competitively whithin an hour of where i live and i currently work every day so i dont get the chance to play it in a setting where i have a whole lot of variance, i have a few friends whi play Modern who i test with. (A Twingrove stompy, a Mardu Midrange, a burn, a BW tokens and a Slivers) and it reigns dominant over all of those with only a slight falter on turn five versus Slivers almost every game. Its consistent and does a great Craterhoof impression with Baru.
I would Love to make a primer for Mono-green landfall but i just cant get all of the necessary information to start a primer myself as i dont have MTGO (and for financial reasons dont plan to) i would appreciate help with a primer for landfall deck.
Barring that, i feel it could qualify as a Landfall/devotion deck. The given name for it has been Titanfall, with obvious reason.
But im rambling, basically my spin on landfall/devotion i feel it could add to devotion, and help with a primer for landfall would be amazing.
I've been durdling around with the Primal Command build and here is what I've found to be really consistent and fun as well. I'm very sold on primal command being the fast interactions. A good turn 3 is getting a primal command off. A winning turn three is entwining tooth and nail. Which is possible in this deck.
Tooth and Nail also acts as search engines 5 and 6 to compliment Primal Command and get Temur Sabertooth out for bouncing shenanigans with E-Wit, Emrakul, Prime Time, etc. Plus being indestructible for the bounce cost is pretty nice.
Capable of turn three kills, infinite turns, and a few other cool interactions.
The sideboard is a work in progress, I feel like it needs to compliment what the main deck is built to do and be enabled by the engine. Still working on it.
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Arbor Elf
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Eternal Witness
3x Temur Sabertooth
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
2x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Enchantments:
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia sprawl
2x Overgrowth
Planeswalkers:
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Sorceries:
2 Tooth and Nail
4 Primal Command
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Spellskite
2 Acidic Slime
2 Silklash Spider
2 Thragtusk
2 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
1 Blood Moon
I guess what keeps me away from it is that I really don't want dead cards without T&N (Xenagos, Emrakul). While we can hardcast them, it's generally a lot harder to pull off. Even T&N itself is 9.
Still, I think that's a pretty good list that includes both. I wonder if a list that lacks the dead-draw search targets could still win off T&N? I suspect yes. It just might take an extra turn, and often not even that (Craterhoof).
I think if I ran the list above, I might try with -1 Xenagos, -1 Emrakul, -2 Sabertooth, +2 Witness, +1 Craterhoof, +1 [some undetermined creature].
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Elvish Visionary or Wistful Selkie ?
I've played both, I like both.
Selkie can obviously generate huge sums of mana with Nykthos; but the downsides are that its not always cast -able "on turn" (if you hit Nykthos and/or Wolf Run and don't have enough green sources).
I've had many turn 3 Commands thanks to a Selkie....but Visionary can get there too if it draws into good stuff (sprawl, etc.)...obviously a lot of factors go into this.
Visionary is better with Temur Sabertooth...but Selkie is a 2/2...
I don't know if there is a set answer. As with all choices, it depends on your curve, mana/land choices, etc.; but most of us play similar cards at CMC's 1-3...so it is something many of us could discuss,
What are more pros and cons? Has anyone else played both? If so, which do you prefer? Why?
Emra I may mull out of my hand, but generally hasn't been a problem
Regarding Selkie vs Visionary, I vote for Caryatid. I don't run any, but the latter is a decent devotion adder and blocker (though it can't team up with Garruk to swing big).
Personally, I use Courser more. However that won't work for this discussion since it's not an actual cantrip.
One important point is that a turn 2 Selkie into a turn 3 Nykthos isn't better than a turn 2 Overgrowth with an Arbor Elf for hitting 5 mana. But again, it's not a cantrip. Worth pointing out, though.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Yeah...on the cantrip front; it can be difficult. There are multiple interactions for me to take into account:
1. Mana - like you said, an Overgrowth will work just as well as a Wistful Selkie to get to 5-mana by turn 3. Nykthos + Selkie is great in a long game; but in most cases Caryatid would be close to as good (while having greater toughness).
2. Temur Sabertooth - This is something that has occurred in many games...having a large sum of mana leads to being able to "bounce" your cantrip to draw extra cards....obviously Visionary would be best here (as his is the lowest cost to bounce/recast).
3. Woodland Bellower - Being able to tutor a Selkie, draw a card, and add 5-devotion and 8 power to the board is great in many match ups. Obviously in many cases I will grab an Eternal Witness or a Reverent Hunter (depending no the match up, what's in the yard, and/or state of the board/game) but there are cases where I'm best off increasing devotion and drawing a card. Visionary is weakest here.
I used to also utilize Selkie from time to time to generate blue mana via Nykthos (when I played Tidespout Tyrant); but that is a whole other discussion that doesn't apply here (just an idea for those playing hybrid cards).
I've had an interesting time "studying" the difference between the speed and power of cards (i.e. Fertile Ground and Elvish Visionary vs. Overgrowth and Wistful Selkie)...I'm not yet done with enough testing to have any "concrete" theories; but it is the item I'm questioning as I play this current deck more and more. The good news is that the current "Midrange" deck has a higher match win rate than any deck I've tested enough to develop results for yet!
went to the pptq beat 2 tron decks 2-0 both then got matched back to back against infect (10/90 in their favor) dropped and got some sleep.
following thursday modern night i went 1-4 (lots of aggro) since then i've 5-1 or 4-1 every week with one 5-0 im in the top 4 every week. And in case anyones curious my meta game is heavily competitive with most of the best modern players in florida with tournament results to back it up. We use to have 6 rounds at the thursday place but it got capped at 5 rounds (thank god).
The only thing that happened of note was the affinity player i played against last thursday in round 5 got a little salty with me when i said good games and that pissed me off. like serously your going to top deck thoughtseize the turn before i creeping corrsion you and YOUR going to give me ***** seriously? won 2-0, craterhoofed for 33 game one for the win and craterhoofed game 2 for over 100(hornet queen>into>craterhoof.
the only update to my deck is i swapped the ruric thar/bonfire for a third wistful selkie.
That's awesome! Thank you so much for posting. Please do post your deck every once and a while so we can just go back a page or two to see it. It's a HUGE deal to have someone playing in so many competitive matches and posting your experiences. We learn a lot from you.
Yeah, infect is tough. I'm testing against then tonight and will try to outline what works best. I've played 12 game-one's and 9 game 2/3's (post board) thus far (we tend to do a 12/24 spilt each time testing against a deck).
A few cards I've liked against them thus far have been:
1. Melina - obvious
2. Blood Moon - they use a ton of non-basics and an early moon slows them down.
3. Chandra Flamecaller - this has actually been incredible in general. I may be a little high on it now because I literally just got done testing against Merfolk; but I'm actually up to 2 copies now and it's a great card for some of our worst match ups.
4. Haze Frog - I haven't really got to the point of "infinite haze" that was discussed with ProTourPlayer; but it has been a useful card in two of the games this far.
I would like to get one form of turntable removal in the main; but (a) it may not exist and (b) I don't want to muddle the main deck to deal with our worst match up...
Arbor Collosus?
Cloud Thresher?
Cloudcrown Oak?
Avatar of the Resolute?
Some of my decks:
Oath Walker Devo - Modern
Stompy - Modern
Battle of Wits - Modern
Teysa's Sac Circus - EDH
Rob's 450 Unpowered - Cube
It's too bad that they play 4x Path to Exile.
I adore all the ETB discussion. I wish there was a better creature that fights when it ETB than Somberwald Stag.
Chandra, Flamecaller: the playability is there. She does cover some weaker areas of the deck, mostly wiping the board.
Chandra gives you wipes when you need them and card advantage/looting / huge damage when you don't. It's good in some of our worst match ups (Merfolk, Infect, etc)
I know it kills your dorks, but most times by the time I cast Chandra, I generally have enchantments, a walker, and/or creatures larger than X/4 so I gain a huge advantage with a wipe.
I do play a 1-of Polukranos as well and a Hornet Queen in the board... thus far I've felt like I've had enough for pesky flier
Do you mean Chandra, Flamecaller?
For killing fliers, I typically use Hornet Queen and Atarka these days.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
[Card] Gruul Ragebeast