While my Garruk Green deck used to have a winning winrate vs. Jund, I feel like that winrate will drop significantly now that Jund has Wrenn and Six.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
While my Garruk Green deck used to have a winning winrate vs. Jund, I feel like that winrate will drop significantly now that Jund has Wrenn and Six.
Yea, I'm in the same boat. I used to be able to out-jund jund, but W6 is big game. I'm considering whether it's worth it to find space for a pair or more in Traditional Devotion just for the value.
The deck grinds incredibly well and has a very reasonable matchup with Control/Midrange in additional to usually favorably aggro/creature matchups. The sideboard is trying to address Combo/Big Mana decks, against which you have very little play game one.
I am big believer in keeping low curve and being able to run under/combo fast, because otherwise it's too easy for the opponent to disrupt/kill your dork or two and be stuck with expensive payoffs. Still testing Mystic packages, but Sword of Feast and Famine has been absolutely great, very relevant protections and ability.
The deck grinds incredibly well and has a very reasonable matchup with Control/Midrange in additional to usually favorably aggro/creature matchups. The sideboard is trying to address Combo/Big Mana decks, against which you have very little play game one.
I am big believer in keeping low curve and being able to run under/combo fast, because otherwise it's too easy for the opponent to disrupt/kill your dork or two and be stuck with expensive payoffs. Still testing Mystic packages, but Sword of Feast and Famine has been absolutely great, very relevant protections and ability.
Cool I just moved to Seattle to, where are you playing at, everywhere I play I'm the only devotion player lol
The deck grinds incredibly well and has a very reasonable matchup with Control/Midrange in additional to usually favorably aggro/creature matchups. The sideboard is trying to address Combo/Big Mana decks, against which you have very little play game one.
I am big believer in keeping low curve and being able to run under/combo fast, because otherwise it's too easy for the opponent to disrupt/kill your dork or two and be stuck with expensive payoffs. Still testing Mystic packages, but Sword of Feast and Famine has been absolutely great, very relevant protections and ability.
Cool I just moved to Seattle to, where are you playing at, everywhere I play I'm the only devotion player lol
Hey! I live in Belfair! Washington devotion group!
Temur tends to be the dominating color combination (to play Kiora, Master of the Depths) but I wonder. 3 decklists include Kiora's Follower but none Llanowar Tribe. This surprised me greatly because in T&N Overgrowth was probably the most efficent ramp card. Tribe is even better and offers redundancy (think about Neoform and Eldritch Evolution). Personally I play T&N almost exclusively regularly. 4 Overgrowths and 4 Llanowar Tribes is the bread and butter of this deck. It's the glue that hold the deck togheter. I have no idea why isn't tribe played more. Follower adds mere 1 mana if there are no auras compared to Tribe. Even the synergy with big Kiora is there. Also 3 devotion and a 3/3 body. Tribe is there to stay and "dies to Doom Blade" arguement doesn't hold. Yes, tribe dies to bolt but so does follower. Elves don't die to unrevolted Fatal Push, tho. The most likely reason is either players look at older lists and just go copy paste style or people are afraid to have their dork killed so they can't play tribe on turn 2. I see no other explaination. Tribe is crazy powerful in T&N. If there are T&N players reading this, could you explain the choice of Kiora's Follower over Llanowar Tribe?
Second thing Castle Garenbrig. This is the card T&N should play no matter what. It has practically no downside. Blood Moon? Ask opponent what he cares more about. Field of Ruin? Kessig is safe. Legendary? NO! I have yet to see a situation where it enters the battlefieldd tapped (except for Titan tutor of course) - I'm still talking about T&N, not devotion with 4 Nykthos. But the upside. My Lord... It's a ramp deck and this land produces 2 mana. With 5 mana available for Command there are no longer suboptimal choices of creatures. Titan can be cast off of Castle. 6 mana and Command into Hornet Queen. Every big creature directly benefits. Even when behind this land helps you get back into the game by casting big stuff. It even helps in pumping Ballista too. Nissa, Who Shakes the World let's you activate it twice in a single turn because it is a creature now. After testing I concluded 3 copies of Castle Garenbrig is the right number.
(On a side note Nissa, Who Shakes the World is far superior to Nissa, Worldwaker in T&N. Strict upgrade. One situation where she gets stuck in when you +1 on all your land and can't +1 again.)
Before T&N with blue became a thing I used to play Commune with Lava. I've tested Escape to the Wilds and I'm genuinely impressed. It's much stronger than CwL when played early (breaking point is 8 mana, X=6). Actually it matters a lot because CwL was lame early on (X and double red). There is no difference between sorcery and instant in this deck. It exiles cards making them safe from hand disruption. One red in casting cost is more impactful than it may seem (no need to name red on Utopia Sprawl makes a tirbe of happy elves). It allows to run less fetchlands too because red is only a splash now, not a main color. I can play only one fetchable red source - 1 Stopming Ground. Utopia Sprawl and bird dorks can provide red too.
If there was only 1 advantage I could highlight, it would be "You may play an additional land this turn". This was the effect Commune with Lava lacked. A blessing to have it, trust me. Play lands, play cheap spells afterwards, untap with mana to cast rest. I should point out that I play green-red version of T&N, no blue and this is the closest thing to big Kiora (she has to be played with at least 2 Eternal Witnesses imo but I'm down to 1). Now that I think about it, could it be that Temur T&N doesn't play Llanowar Tribe because it names blue on Utopia Sprawl? But it runs like 10 fetchlands so it can name green and put it on a Breeding Pool. Are 3 life points not worth it? I don't know and I want to.
(Only those who have ever played Commune with Lava in T&N and had to make a clutch play the same turn when there was a lot of mana available will know this overwhelming brainstorm. How much for X? How much mana to leave open? What is the card I want? How many copies of the card I want are left in the deck? Searching for T&N - dont get X too high because multiple parts of the combo can end up in exile. Playing Escape to the Wilds removes the ceiling and some skill expression but is relieving.)
To all who tested Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra. How have they been doing for you in Tooth and Nail shell or in devotion decks?
Here's some insight on creatures I tested if anyone's interested:
- Gilded Goose (instead of Birds of Paradise)
Breathtaking. Doesn't die to 1 damage effects - looking at you Wrenn and Six. Blocks 1/x dudes. Even if it dies on turn 1 it leaves a Food token behind. Birds leaves disappointment. It's a mana sink! 1 CMC mana ramp card that doubles as a mana sink. Nothing to play? Make a Food token, gain 3 life. It's surprising how relevant are those in stopping beatdown and stabilizing. The fact it makes mana of Food tokens is hardly ever a downside. In a hundred matches I playtested, Goose's inability to produce mana in consecutive early turns was noticable in just 3 games. Just 3. Years back I tried to find a way to gain life in T&N that was a nice addition and didn't consume a slot in my decklist. Sapseep Forest, a fetchable Forest, wasn't great even with all the untappers. It was a liability sometimes. With Eldraine out I tested Gingerbread Cabin and came to smimilar conclusion (insert a sad face when tutoring it with a Primeval Titan). Also (2-of) Fabled Passage in place of 2 fetchlands proved to be bad. Goose fulfilled my goal and fits the role of life gain perfectly. I even had to stop myself from cutting other 1 drops in it's favor. This wouldn't be wise. I highly recommend testing it in T&N.
- Panglacial Wurm
Combination of Llanowar Tribe, Castle Garenbrig, Arbor Elf and Overgrowth make this guy the winner of "best manland award". 9/5 trample, flash potentail lurking in every fetchland. That's far better than any manland could ever do in T&N. I've tested them all and absolutely none got even close to this lad. It's something to cast when heart of cards stopped beating just to give you something to beat opponents with. Even with Nissa, Who Shakes the World and Primeval Titan manlands underperform. There had to be like 4 Nissa and 4 Titans to make it work. Most notably, vast majority of manlands enter the battlefield tapped so they sometimes interrupt casting Overgrowth and Llanowar Tribe on turn 2. Basically he's just a thing to cast when hand is bad. Even with 6 fetchlands casting him is not a problem. It makes you value them more and saving them for when it counts, playing / using them as late as possible when you only have 1. Additionally Food tokens and less fetchlands make for a healthy life total.
- Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
In my last post I gave reason to why Terastodon was the best catch-(almost)-all answer. Then Castle Garenbrig happened. Little to say Ulamog is just better now. Bypasses countermagic in a way, doesn't leave tokens behind, Indestructible, exiles permanents and cards form libraries. It's also one of my favourite creatures so I take that You were onto something CurdBros when you started testing it alongside Once Upon a Time.
Okay,that List is cool. Some thoughts from me, even i'm not an T&N Player.
But at first one more sucess for Temur Tooth and Nail from Uejgo ( Modern League 2019-10-11, (5-0) ) https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2368627#paper , nearly the same as the other Temur List only with more Devotion Allstars
Gilded Goose is reasonable. Only to sacrifice a Token feels like a "One Shot". Was that ever a problem for you?
i really like Panglacial Wurm as a hidden card "in hand". And i hate it if i'm drawing it.
My problem with Escape to the Wilds that if I'm playing it, the next round should be my finsih strike, but the round if i'm played this it don't nothing impressive. For the same mana i can play Primal Command as a well known green swiss knife and i can freely search a creature and not only 5 cards deep. Escape is a good Standard card, but not strong enough for modern imho.
Uejgo is playing Time Warp even for that is at worst +1card + 1 land and at best +1 combat phase and can be for your opponent an unforseen lethal damage.
Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra are great. High scaling cards that doing relevant jobs. CardDraw and Lifegaining or CreatureRemoval and on top they left a big body with evasion.
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Edit:
Here a sucessful build from Germany
I do agree that Llanowar Tribe seems like it should be a staple in any deck that wants to ramp to 9+. I am up to three copies in my deck.
There are meta’s where it’s hard to play Tribe (when bolt is everywhere, etc.) but I’m ok with a very likable creature if is MUST be killed.
Tooth and Nail is getting better and better in my opinion as a win-con of choice for Green Devotion/Green Ramp. I still am on Karn, the Great Creator with Ulamog, Garruk Overrun, and Oko as slower/grindy win-cons...but Karn and Ulamog are quite similar in the sense that you are ramping to 10 to cast your “I Win” card. The play patterns are often similar.
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MtgDecks.net recently changed the archetype label for Devotion to “Green Ramp” (to include Devotion, Tooth and Nail, and one miscellaneous Ramp deck together). I thought that was super smart. It may be best for us to do this as well so people feel more free to discuss their deck here if it is not a “pure” Devotion list.
P.S. I’d love to hear more about Escape from the Wilds. Do you think the additional land clause pushes it over the top from playing Harmonize...5 cards is certainly more than 3...but so is one mana. I’m interested to hear more about this.
I also Love the use of Kiora BB and Tribe as well. Two of the best 3-drop options we have for pure ramp.
Voyaging Satyr vs. Kiora's Follower is the far more important question.
(...)
Gilded Goose is reasonable. Only to sacrifice a Token feels like a "One Shot". Was that ever a problem for you?
I really like Panglacial Wurm as a hidden card "in hand". And i hate it if i'm drawing it.
And a rethorical one. If you already play blue, there is little reason to play Satyr over Follower.
2 power is relevant sometimes.
Untapping a creature after attacking matters and I can confrim this - I played Follower before Llanowar Tribe has been printed.
Xenagos gives it +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.
Plauge Engineer naming druid (both Arbor Elf and Voyaging Satyr are druids).
In merfolk match up Lord of Atlantis gives it +1/+1 and islandwalk.
Additionally he kills Phantasmal Image in match up against Humans.
Reasons against it are mainly life loss inflicted by fetching untapped Breeding Pool and interaction with rarely played Spellskite.
About playing it alongside Llanowar Tribe. Core of T&N ramp (not including planeswalkers) is 3 Birds, 4 Arbor Elves, 4 Utopia Sprawls and 4 Overgrowths. Adding 4 Tribes leaves no room for Kiora's Followers and vice versa. I remember playing both at some point and the synergy was there but eventually you have to ramp into something so less payoff slots, lesser probability.
Goose's inability to produce mana in consecutive early turns is very rarely a problem. Just watch it later single handedly fending off Gurmag Angler or whatever else.
Drawing Panglacial Wurm is annoying but despite that it is worth playing in the broader perspective.
On Escape to the Wilds:
Escape to the Wilds makes for card advantage while Command doesn't. It's obvious what to do with Primal Command when you're ahead. But what will you do when you're at a disadvantage and facing Liliana of the Veil backed by Tarmogoyf? Or experiencing mana / ramp shortage? Or just out of gas? A single command rarely helps.
There are only 4 slots for it and very few T&N decklists have full 4 for a reason. Command provides a solution when you have enough mana to play whatever has been tutored. If you can't it basically says "tutor, tickle then skip your turn". I've seen several T&N players playing Summoner's Pact for this reason. Search + bonus is used overwhelmingly more often than combination of non-tutoring modes. Pact allows you to first play a threat and then "skip" your turn.
The "You may play an additional land this turn" line on Escape to the Wilds is significant. Playing an exiled land and a 1 drop or playing 2 lands from your hand / exile or even some permanents when you cast it while still having some mana left furthers your mana development so you can cast something impactful either from hand or exile the next turn.
It's sometimes the case you exile T&N or Command and a big creature and have to choose what to cast becasue you only have mana for 1 big spell. Then you lose other cards (a situation where mana is limited). There are also situations where you would rather cast exiled ramp cards instead. You won't always play all of them but it's good enough.
It is better than Harmonize in this particular version of T&N (plan is to get a 3 drop ramp card on turn 2) because most often you still get value the same turn by playing a land and maybe a 1 drop. Harmonize skips the turn without immediate effect and loses to Narset's passive ability.
Converted mana cost matters only when facing a deck that answers literally everything you play early, like Jund with a good hand. In every other scenario Escape to the Wilds provides 2 more cards and has an immediate effect compared to Harmonize. Single red mana symbol comes nearly at no cost compared to Commune with Lava double red requirement, especially early. It's a ramp deck so it's not planning to cast Harmonize / Escape to the Wilds on turn 4 or turn 5. Difference between CMC 4 and 5 is much smaller compared to decks with no mana acceleration.
In Temur colors at 4 mana there is Drawn from Dreams which I liked a lot (and big Kiora obviously). Unfortunately I tested it before I started playing Llanowar Tribe. It has double blue in its cost and Tribe doesn't like other colors that much but I think mana base can be adjusted to handle it - Flooded Grove and less utility lands. I touched the topic of Llanowar Tribe so I will share my thoughts on ramping with small Kiora. Decent survivalibity but minimal impact and low efficiency. Passive almost never triggers. I end up siding her out most of the time. Even though CMC of 3 fits the plan I still prefer Garruk.
A side note on CMC 4 and 5. I experimented with Magus of the Vineyard alongside Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl to maximize chance of getting 4 mana on turn 2. Conclusion is that only playing a planeswalker was impactful enough to justify it. Unfortunately Garruk and big Kiora aren't the powerhouses that take over the game quickly on their own in T&N. Maybe another 4 mana planeswalker could change thigs around. I haven't tested small Karn in this set up.
Uejgo is playing Time Warp even for that is at worst +1card + 1 land and at best +1 combat phase and can be for your opponent an unforseen lethal damage.
Uegjo has a fetish on Time Warp, he has been playing 1-of since Temur T&N became a thing for reasons unknown to me. At worst it's : draw a card (not always +1 card, +1 land). At best? I don't know but absolutely not +1 combat phase. I can somewhat justify Time Warp in 4 situations:
when ahead on board and actually threatening life total which is not a plan T&N is really equipped to implement. It's rather a byproduct plan emerging when opponent is careless with fetching or combat. Having unanswered big creature would be an advantage in itself. One more turn would be mostly a win more effect.
chaining it with Eternal Witness. Powerful but inconsistent.
playing it with multiple planeswalkers out is probably the most profitable way of spending 5 mana. Single planeswalkers are very underwhelming: {Kiora, +1 into Time Warp, -2} or {Garruk, +1 into Time Warp, -1} (Ulting Garruk next turn could actually be a thing).
But Garruk / Kiora / Nissa, +1, another unique planeswalker, +1 into Time Warp opens a lot of possibilities next turn. It's rather naive to think of scenario where you use planeswalker's non-ramp ability and cast Time Warp the same turn.
experiencing mana deficiency and using it to "ramp". Although Castle Garenbirg partially solves this problem there are situations where taking extra turn can be relevant. For example T&N in hand and: T1 land + Birds, T2 land + Overgrowth, T3 Garruk + Time Warp, T4 win.
Even all of these combined don't convince me Time Warp is a viable card in T&N. But you can play whatever you like and no one can take fun of doing so away from you.
I still am on (...) Ulamog, and Oko as slower/grindy win-cons... but Karn and Ulamog are quite similar in the sense that you are ramping to 10 to cast your “I Win” card.
What I've noticed is that Ulamog overshadows Walking Ballista (and Dragonlord Atarka for that matter) as a removal and as a win condition. Ballista for 10 mana is just a 5/5 and shirnks when pinging. Ulamog wins the game on the spot most of the time. Castle Garenbrig is great with high CMC creatures. Even Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra benefit from it. Seems like they are the popular plan now - no list has Hornet Queen - just get X as high as possible (also X on Kessig). Unbound Flourishing comes to mind.
How has Oko, Thief of Crowns been doing for you? It's possible to play it in Temur T&N but I'm currently testing green-red version so feedback and your experience with it would be helpful and appreciated.
Wow, again a big great posting.
I really want give you (hopefully) helpful critique and a reponse to your new ideas.
I'm gladly to hear that Goose is maybe the better choice as a 1 Drop as the Birds. 0/2 is really nice against the 1 Damage Pings from W6
Thanks for the analyze about Kiora's Follower. Never think that much about it. Now its very clear .
About the Jund Matchup, i'm often out valued(!) his stuff. Card-Drawing and the better End-Game doing it often to my favor. Escape to the Wilds: imho its much stronger as Harmonize . And i knew that card drawing is one of the best abilitys in Magic. In the last days i think about EttW and T&N .
The nature about T&N Deck is: "Ramping , no matter what is going on"
EttW is doing exactly that and digging the deck in the same time to cast the name sake card. That is huge deal for 1 mana more as harmonize.
A Devotion Player should use his Primal Command as his Swiss knife (and/or finish move), an T&N Player is more like: "I bet i had more ramp cards as you removals".
Causa Time Warp: Not my fetisch and i had invert already my opinion.
Llanowar Tribe is a Overgrowth on feets. With 18-21 Ramp cards there is maybe enough room for improvements/changes to unleash the Power for untapping these guys in a consistence way. Its just time to brew my first T&N Deck
@epiknoob
No, because: "...nontoken creature enters the battlefield...", sadly you didn't get benefits from this.
Search in these Thread Ghalta, Primal Hunger. With Henge you got 8 Payoff Cards to build around Power creatures.
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Edit:
Just durdle around with Goldfishing and watched some Videos. Escape to the Wilds is a hell of a card.
Until the end of your NEXT turn IN a heavy RAMP Deck - think about that! Most of the time it feels like 5 extra cards. The Out of Gas Situation doesn't come and is one of the greatest weakness of T&N. On the other Hand its only slightly better as Urban Evolution , i'm really confused
Thanks for the discussion on Escape. Interesting card indeed. Harmonize was all the rage very early on in Devotion (but that was many, many, set printings ACI )...I’ll have to try it out.
on Oko
I have found Oko to be an incredible answer card. I’ve been playing it main in my Walker Combo build and sideboard in my Tribe/Ramp build.
It’s juts a great way to answer any problem creature/artifact (for me Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. are problems...as are decks like Devoted Druid Combo, Infect, Urza, etc where they can win super fast with combos.
It has performed extremely well in my Walker Combo list (as between it and Karn you get a ton of interaction without drastically effecting the main game plan). For decks like T&N that have a very well defined game-one plan; it likely is better out of the board. Few cards are as versatile for only 3-cmc.
Oko also has worked as an effective tool to aid in Garruk Overrun’s. I’ve had many games where I’ve turned a bird, a food token, and/or Wall of Blossoms into 3/3’s (or just “traded” the opponents creature for a food token) and overran for lethal. It’s. It not THE reason to play Oko; but it is a positive synergy.
A very “off the wall” synergy that I’ve used twice now has been the use of Liquimetal Coating out of the board with Oko’s “convert artifact” ability. I’ve used it to turn two Planeswalker’s into elk’s. You could for a land or enchantment as well...I just haven’t yet.
Of course Oath of Nissa also finds it, which is a plus.
I would go as far as saying Oko will likely end up in the 75 of a vast majority of the decks I play...but in the main thus far only in my Walker build. It is powerful and versatile. It can pile on pressure or answer a problem creature/artifact.
I know!!! Devotion is gonna be so good in Pioneer. I’m pumped
With no Tron we become the best ramp deck
We get the Wakeroot Combo. The lack of Utopia Sprawl and Garruk changes the deck; but we do have both Kiora’s, Elvish Mystic, Gilded Goose, and Plenty of good 2-drops.
We can even make use of the busted Once upon a Time and Castle Garenbrig.
If the format is slower and more midrange-focused...it likely will be better for us. And without Lattice; we don’t HAVE to play Karn
should we use the spoiler tag for Pioneer? It's still a modern forum here.
Same question: Whisperwood Combo ?
From Channelball article in the past Standardformat about Whisperwood (!) .
Quote from "From Channelball artcile about the past Standard" »
Mono-Green Devotion seems like the most natural shell for this guy as he can come down as early as turn three, and with Nykthos you can unmorph almost anything you were to manifest. It’s also worth noting his sacrifice ability is highly relevant against the soon-to-be popular Crux of Fate.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Yea, I'm in the same boat. I used to be able to out-jund jund, but W6 is big game. I'm considering whether it's worth it to find space for a pair or more in Traditional Devotion just for the value.
2-1-1
Burn W
Storm L
Snow 5 color D
Tron W
3-1
Boggles W
Jund W
Burn W
Jund L
Here is my current list, trying to do a lot of things at once:
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Fauna Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Llanowar Tribe
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
Spells:
1 Finale of Devastation
4 Collected Company
2 Primal Command
Lands
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Alpine Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Collector Ouphe
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
The deck grinds incredibly well and has a very reasonable matchup with Control/Midrange in additional to usually favorably aggro/creature matchups. The sideboard is trying to address Combo/Big Mana decks, against which you have very little play game one.
I am big believer in keeping low curve and being able to run under/combo fast, because otherwise it's too easy for the opponent to disrupt/kill your dork or two and be stuck with expensive payoffs. Still testing Mystic packages, but Sword of Feast and Famine has been absolutely great, very relevant protections and ability.
This is my first deck in a long while, so i know it needs work but i am curious what you all think?
thank you
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Hydroid Krasis
4 Arbor Elf
4 Shifting Ceratops
Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
Land
1 Mountain
7 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
4 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Thragtusk
4 Blood Moon
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Damping Sphere
4 Veil of Summer
Cool I just moved to Seattle to, where are you playing at, everywhere I play I'm the only devotion player lol
Hey! I live in Belfair! Washington devotion group!
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23109&d=358779&f=MO
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2287729#paper
Temur tends to be the dominating color combination (to play Kiora, Master of the Depths) but I wonder. 3 decklists include Kiora's Follower but none Llanowar Tribe. This surprised me greatly because in T&N Overgrowth was probably the most efficent ramp card. Tribe is even better and offers redundancy (think about Neoform and Eldritch Evolution). Personally I play T&N almost exclusively regularly. 4 Overgrowths and 4 Llanowar Tribes is the bread and butter of this deck. It's the glue that hold the deck togheter. I have no idea why isn't tribe played more. Follower adds mere 1 mana if there are no auras compared to Tribe. Even the synergy with big Kiora is there. Also 3 devotion and a 3/3 body. Tribe is there to stay and "dies to Doom Blade" arguement doesn't hold. Yes, tribe dies to bolt but so does follower. Elves don't die to unrevolted Fatal Push, tho. The most likely reason is either players look at older lists and just go copy paste style or people are afraid to have their dork killed so they can't play tribe on turn 2. I see no other explaination. Tribe is crazy powerful in T&N. If there are T&N players reading this, could you explain the choice of Kiora's Follower over Llanowar Tribe?
Second thing Castle Garenbrig. This is the card T&N should play no matter what. It has practically no downside. Blood Moon? Ask opponent what he cares more about. Field of Ruin? Kessig is safe. Legendary? NO! I have yet to see a situation where it enters the battlefieldd tapped (except for Titan tutor of course) - I'm still talking about T&N, not devotion with 4 Nykthos. But the upside. My Lord... It's a ramp deck and this land produces 2 mana. With 5 mana available for Command there are no longer suboptimal choices of creatures. Titan can be cast off of Castle. 6 mana and Command into Hornet Queen. Every big creature directly benefits. Even when behind this land helps you get back into the game by casting big stuff. It even helps in pumping Ballista too. Nissa, Who Shakes the World let's you activate it twice in a single turn because it is a creature now. After testing I concluded 3 copies of Castle Garenbrig is the right number.
(On a side note Nissa, Who Shakes the World is far superior to Nissa, Worldwaker in T&N. Strict upgrade. One situation where she gets stuck in when you +1 on all your land and can't +1 again.)
Before T&N with blue became a thing I used to play Commune with Lava. I've tested Escape to the Wilds and I'm genuinely impressed. It's much stronger than CwL when played early (breaking point is 8 mana, X=6). Actually it matters a lot because CwL was lame early on (X and double red). There is no difference between sorcery and instant in this deck. It exiles cards making them safe from hand disruption. One red in casting cost is more impactful than it may seem (no need to name red on Utopia Sprawl makes a tirbe of happy elves). It allows to run less fetchlands too because red is only a splash now, not a main color. I can play only one fetchable red source - 1 Stopming Ground. Utopia Sprawl and bird dorks can provide red too.
If there was only 1 advantage I could highlight, it would be "You may play an additional land this turn". This was the effect Commune with Lava lacked. A blessing to have it, trust me. Play lands, play cheap spells afterwards, untap with mana to cast rest. I should point out that I play green-red version of T&N, no blue and this is the closest thing to big Kiora (she has to be played with at least 2 Eternal Witnesses imo but I'm down to 1). Now that I think about it, could it be that Temur T&N doesn't play Llanowar Tribe because it names blue on Utopia Sprawl? But it runs like 10 fetchlands so it can name green and put it on a Breeding Pool. Are 3 life points not worth it? I don't know and I want to.
(Only those who have ever played Commune with Lava in T&N and had to make a clutch play the same turn when there was a lot of mana available will know this overwhelming brainstorm. How much for X? How much mana to leave open? What is the card I want? How many copies of the card I want are left in the deck? Searching for T&N - dont get X too high because multiple parts of the combo can end up in exile. Playing Escape to the Wilds removes the ceiling and some skill expression but is relieving.)
To all who tested Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra. How have they been doing for you in Tooth and Nail shell or in devotion decks?
Here's some insight on creatures I tested if anyone's interested:
- Gilded Goose (instead of Birds of Paradise)
Breathtaking. Doesn't die to 1 damage effects - looking at you Wrenn and Six. Blocks 1/x dudes. Even if it dies on turn 1 it leaves a Food token behind. Birds leaves disappointment. It's a mana sink! 1 CMC mana ramp card that doubles as a mana sink. Nothing to play? Make a Food token, gain 3 life. It's surprising how relevant are those in stopping beatdown and stabilizing. The fact it makes mana of Food tokens is hardly ever a downside. In a hundred matches I playtested, Goose's inability to produce mana in consecutive early turns was noticable in just 3 games. Just 3. Years back I tried to find a way to gain life in T&N that was a nice addition and didn't consume a slot in my decklist. Sapseep Forest, a fetchable Forest, wasn't great even with all the untappers. It was a liability sometimes. With Eldraine out I tested Gingerbread Cabin and came to smimilar conclusion (insert a sad face when tutoring it with a Primeval Titan). Also (2-of) Fabled Passage in place of 2 fetchlands proved to be bad. Goose fulfilled my goal and fits the role of life gain perfectly. I even had to stop myself from cutting other 1 drops in it's favor. This wouldn't be wise. I highly recommend testing it in T&N.
- Panglacial Wurm
Combination of Llanowar Tribe, Castle Garenbrig, Arbor Elf and Overgrowth make this guy the winner of "best manland award". 9/5 trample, flash potentail lurking in every fetchland. That's far better than any manland could ever do in T&N. I've tested them all and absolutely none got even close to this lad. It's something to cast when heart of cards stopped beating just to give you something to beat opponents with. Even with Nissa, Who Shakes the World and Primeval Titan manlands underperform. There had to be like 4 Nissa and 4 Titans to make it work. Most notably, vast majority of manlands enter the battlefield tapped so they sometimes interrupt casting Overgrowth and Llanowar Tribe on turn 2. Basically he's just a thing to cast when hand is bad. Even with 6 fetchlands casting him is not a problem. It makes you value them more and saving them for when it counts, playing / using them as late as possible when you only have 1. Additionally Food tokens and less fetchlands make for a healthy life total.
- Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
In my last post I gave reason to why Terastodon was the best catch-(almost)-all answer. Then Castle Garenbrig happened. Little to say Ulamog is just better now. Bypasses countermagic in a way, doesn't leave tokens behind, Indestructible, exiles permanents and cards form libraries. It's also one of my favourite creatures so I take that
For anyone who's interested here's my decklist.
1 Stomping Ground
9 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Castle Garenbrig
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Gilded Goose
4 Arbor Elf
4 Overgrowth
4 Llanowar Tribe
2 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner (to replace)
2 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
1 Thragtusk
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Primeval Titan
1 Hornet Queen
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Primal Command
2 Escape to the Wilds
3 Tooth and Nail
To all the T&N players out there. Share your thoughts, give some insight. I know you are here. Would love to hear about Kiora's Follower vs Llanowar Tribe, Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra and generally anything T&N related.
But at first one more sucess for Temur Tooth and Nail from Uejgo ( Modern League 2019-10-11, (5-0) )
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2368627#paper , nearly the same as the other Temur List only with more Devotion Allstars
Voyaging Satyr vs. Kiora's Follower is the far more important question. The Satyr is easier to cast, but the Follower had +1 Power and can untap even any permanent. If you play both: Overgrowth and Llanowar Tribe , i would play Kiora's Follower so , whatever i got on the board i can untap it. With the same reason Kiora, Master of the Depths is it a must have.
Gilded Goose is reasonable. Only to sacrifice a Token feels like a "One Shot". Was that ever a problem for you?
i really like Panglacial Wurm as a hidden card "in hand". And i hate it if i'm drawing it.
My problem with Escape to the Wilds that if I'm playing it, the next round should be my finsih strike, but the round if i'm played this it don't nothing impressive. For the same mana i can play Primal Command as a well known green swiss knife and i can freely search a creature and not only 5 cards deep. Escape is a good Standard card, but not strong enough for modern imho.
Uejgo is playing Time Warp even for
Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra are great. High scaling cards that doing relevant jobs. CardDraw and Lifegaining or CreatureRemoval and on top they left a big body with evasion.
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Edit:
Here a sucessful build from Germany
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23328&d=360700&f=MO
A Green Devotion List with Karn and Once Upon a Time
I do agree that Llanowar Tribe seems like it should be a staple in any deck that wants to ramp to 9+. I am up to three copies in my deck.
There are meta’s where it’s hard to play Tribe (when bolt is everywhere, etc.) but I’m ok with a very likable creature if is MUST be killed.
Tooth and Nail is getting better and better in my opinion as a win-con of choice for Green Devotion/Green Ramp. I still am on Karn, the Great Creator with Ulamog, Garruk Overrun, and Oko as slower/grindy win-cons...but Karn and Ulamog are quite similar in the sense that you are ramping to 10 to cast your “I Win” card. The play patterns are often similar.
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MtgDecks.net recently changed the archetype label for Devotion to “Green Ramp” (to include Devotion, Tooth and Nail, and one miscellaneous Ramp deck together). I thought that was super smart. It may be best for us to do this as well so people feel more free to discuss their deck here if it is not a “pure” Devotion list.
I also Love the use of Kiora BB and Tribe as well. Two of the best 3-drop options we have for pure ramp.
With the great Henge, kitchen Fink's, plus a sac outlet , would hangarback walker be a good one of or maybe two of?
Untapping a creature after attacking matters and I can confrim this - I played Follower before Llanowar Tribe has been printed.
Xenagos gives it +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.
Plauge Engineer naming druid (both Arbor Elf and Voyaging Satyr are druids).
In merfolk match up Lord of Atlantis gives it +1/+1 and islandwalk.
Additionally he kills Phantasmal Image in match up against Humans.
Reasons against it are mainly life loss inflicted by fetching untapped Breeding Pool and interaction with rarely played Spellskite.
About playing it alongside Llanowar Tribe. Core of T&N ramp (not including planeswalkers) is 3 Birds, 4 Arbor Elves, 4 Utopia Sprawls and 4 Overgrowths. Adding 4 Tribes leaves no room for Kiora's Followers and vice versa. I remember playing both at some point and the synergy was there but eventually you have to ramp into something so less payoff slots, lesser probability.
Drawing Panglacial Wurm is annoying but despite that it is worth playing in the broader perspective.
On Escape to the Wilds:
Escape to the Wilds makes for card advantage while Command doesn't. It's obvious what to do with Primal Command when you're ahead. But what will you do when you're at a disadvantage and facing Liliana of the Veil backed by Tarmogoyf? Or experiencing mana / ramp shortage? Or just out of gas? A single command rarely helps.
There are only 4 slots for it and very few T&N decklists have full 4 for a reason. Command provides a solution when you have enough mana to play whatever has been tutored. If you can't it basically says "tutor, tickle then skip your turn". I've seen several T&N players playing Summoner's Pact for this reason. Search + bonus is used overwhelmingly more often than combination of non-tutoring modes. Pact allows you to first play a threat and then "skip" your turn.
The "You may play an additional land this turn" line on Escape to the Wilds is significant. Playing an exiled land and a 1 drop or playing 2 lands from your hand / exile or even some permanents when you cast it while still having some mana left furthers your mana development so you can cast something impactful either from hand or exile the next turn.
It's sometimes the case you exile T&N or Command and a big creature and have to choose what to cast becasue you only have mana for 1 big spell. Then you lose other cards (a situation where mana is limited). There are also situations where you would rather cast exiled ramp cards instead. You won't always play all of them but it's good enough.
It is better than Harmonize in this particular version of T&N (plan is to get a 3 drop ramp card on turn 2) because most often you still get value the same turn by playing a land and maybe a 1 drop. Harmonize skips the turn without immediate effect and loses to Narset's passive ability.
Converted mana cost matters only when facing a deck that answers literally everything you play early, like Jund with a good hand. In every other scenario Escape to the Wilds provides 2 more cards and has an immediate effect compared to Harmonize. Single red mana symbol comes nearly at no cost compared to Commune with Lava double red requirement, especially early. It's a ramp deck so it's not planning to cast Harmonize / Escape to the Wilds on turn 4 or turn 5. Difference between CMC 4 and 5 is much smaller compared to decks with no mana acceleration.
In Temur colors at 4 mana there is Drawn from Dreams which I liked a lot (and big Kiora obviously). Unfortunately I tested it before I started playing Llanowar Tribe. It has double blue in its cost and Tribe doesn't like other colors that much but I think mana base can be adjusted to handle it - Flooded Grove and less utility lands. I touched the topic of Llanowar Tribe so I will share my thoughts on ramping with small Kiora. Decent survivalibity but minimal impact and low efficiency. Passive almost never triggers. I end up siding her out most of the time. Even though CMC of 3 fits the plan I still prefer Garruk.
A side note on CMC 4 and 5. I experimented with Magus of the Vineyard alongside Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl to maximize chance of getting 4 mana on turn 2. Conclusion is that only playing a planeswalker was impactful enough to justify it. Unfortunately Garruk and big Kiora aren't the powerhouses that take over the game quickly on their own in T&N. Maybe another 4 mana planeswalker could change thigs around. I haven't tested small Karn in this set up.
Uegjo has a fetish on Time Warp, he has been playing 1-of since Temur T&N became a thing for reasons unknown to me. At worst it's
- when ahead on board and actually threatening life total which is not a plan T&N is really equipped to implement. It's rather a byproduct plan emerging when opponent is careless with fetching or combat. Having unanswered big creature would be an advantage in itself. One more turn would be mostly a win more effect.
- chaining it with Eternal Witness. Powerful but inconsistent.
- playing it with multiple planeswalkers out is probably the most profitable way of spending 5 mana. Single planeswalkers are very underwhelming: {Kiora, +1 into Time Warp, -2} or {Garruk, +1 into Time Warp, -1} (Ulting Garruk next turn could actually be a thing).
But Garruk / Kiora / Nissa, +1, another unique planeswalker, +1 into Time Warp opens a lot of possibilities next turn. It's rather naive to think of scenario where you use planeswalker's non-ramp ability and cast Time Warp the same turn.
- experiencing mana deficiency and using it to "ramp". Although Castle Garenbirg partially solves this problem there are situations where taking extra turn can be relevant. For example T&N in hand and: T1 land + Birds, T2 land + Overgrowth, T3 Garruk + Time Warp, T4 win.
Even all of these combined don't convince me Time Warp is a viable card in T&N. But you can play whatever you like and no one can take fun of doing so away from you.What I've noticed is that Ulamog overshadows Walking Ballista (and Dragonlord Atarka for that matter) as a removal and as a win condition. Ballista for 10 mana is just a 5/5 and shirnks when pinging. Ulamog wins the game on the spot most of the time. Castle Garenbrig is great with high CMC creatures. Even Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra benefit from it. Seems like they are the popular plan now - no list has Hornet Queen - just get X as high as possible (also X on Kessig). Unbound Flourishing comes to mind.
How has Oko, Thief of Crowns been doing for you? It's possible to play it in Temur T&N but I'm currently testing green-red version so feedback and your experience with it would be helpful and appreciated.
I really want give you (hopefully) helpful critique and a reponse to your new ideas.
I'm gladly to hear that Goose is maybe the better choice as a 1 Drop as the Birds. 0/2 is really nice against the 1 Damage Pings from W6
Thanks for the analyze about Kiora's Follower. Never think that much about it. Now its very clear .
About the Jund Matchup, i'm often out valued(!) his stuff. Card-Drawing and the better End-Game doing it often to my favor.
Escape to the Wilds: imho its much stronger as Harmonize . And i knew that card drawing is one of the best abilitys in Magic. In the last days i think about EttW and T&N .
The nature about T&N Deck is: "Ramping , no matter what is going on"
EttW is doing exactly that and digging the deck in the same time to cast the name sake card. That is huge deal for 1 mana more as harmonize.
A Devotion Player should use his Primal Command as his Swiss knife (and/or finish move), an T&N Player is more like: "I bet i had more ramp cards as you removals".
Causa Time Warp: Not my fetisch
Llanowar Tribe is a Overgrowth on feets. With 18-21 Ramp cards there is maybe enough room for improvements/changes to unleash the Power for untapping these guys in a consistence way. Its just time to brew my first T&N Deck
@CurdBro
https://www.amazon.com/Gathering-Bodysuit-Parents-Please-Release/dp/B07NDQGPB7
@epiknoob
No, because: "...nontoken creature enters the battlefield...", sadly you didn't get benefits from this.
Search in these Thread Ghalta, Primal Hunger. With Henge you got 8 Payoff Cards to build around Power creatures.
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Edit:
Just durdle around with Goldfishing and watched some Videos. Escape to the Wilds is a hell of a card.
Until the end of your NEXT turn IN a heavy RAMP Deck - think about that! Most of the time it feels like 5 extra cards. The Out of Gas Situation doesn't come and is one of the greatest weakness of T&N. On the other Hand its only slightly better as Urban Evolution , i'm really confused
on Oko
I have found Oko to be an incredible answer card. I’ve been playing it main in my Walker Combo build and sideboard in my Tribe/Ramp build.
It’s juts a great way to answer any problem creature/artifact (for me Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. are problems...as are decks like Devoted Druid Combo, Infect, Urza, etc where they can win super fast with combos.
It has performed extremely well in my Walker Combo list (as between it and Karn you get a ton of interaction without drastically effecting the main game plan). For decks like T&N that have a very well defined game-one plan; it likely is better out of the board. Few cards are as versatile for only 3-cmc.
Oko also has worked as an effective tool to aid in Garruk Overrun’s. I’ve had many games where I’ve turned a bird, a food token, and/or Wall of Blossoms into 3/3’s (or just “traded” the opponents creature for a food token) and overran for lethal. It’s. It not THE reason to play Oko; but it is a positive synergy.
A very “off the wall” synergy that I’ve used twice now has been the use of Liquimetal Coating out of the board with Oko’s “convert artifact” ability. I’ve used it to turn two Planeswalker’s into elk’s. You could for a land or enchantment as well...I just haven’t yet.
Of course Oath of Nissa also finds it, which is a plus.
I would go as far as saying Oko will likely end up in the 75 of a vast majority of the decks I play...but in the main thus far only in my Walker build. It is powerful and versatile. It can pile on pressure or answer a problem creature/artifact.
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Not sure which route i'm following:
The new green Leyline or just searching the land
Maybe this is a good starting point (Only a Quick Sketch) . Just clicking around in the past Standard ramp decks.
3 Breeding Pool
2 Castle Garenbrig
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Den Protector
4 Elvish Mystic
8 Forest
2 Gift of Paradise
4 Gilded Goose
1 Hour of Promise
4 Hydroid Krasis
4 Island
4 Kiora, Master of the Depths
2 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Steel Leaf Champion
2 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Undergrowth Champion
4 Voracious Hydra
1 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Crush of Tentacles
2 Leyline of Abundance
2 Nylea's Disciple
1 Plummet
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Unravel the Aether
4 Veil of Summer
4 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Genesis Hydra
1 Kiora's Follower
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Voyaging Satyr
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
I know!!! Devotion is gonna be so good in Pioneer. I’m pumped
With no Tron we become the best ramp deck
We get the Wakeroot Combo. The lack of Utopia Sprawl and Garruk changes the deck; but we do have both Kiora’s, Elvish Mystic, Gilded Goose, and Plenty of good 2-drops.
We can even make use of the busted Once upon a Time and Castle Garenbrig.
If the format is slower and more midrange-focused...it likely will be better for us. And without Lattice; we don’t HAVE to play Karn
What's the Whisperwood combo?
Same question: Whisperwood Combo ?
From Channelball article in the past Standardformat about Whisperwood (!) .
The only real combo i had found: Whisperwood Elemental, Torrential Gearhulk, Nexus of Fate combo
https://twitter.com/andrewcuneo/status/1078008200677474304?lang=de
For all that had a question mark about the Wakeroot Elemental combo
Wakeroot Elemental + Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx + 8 Devotion (the Elemental counts, too) = infinite Mana, and/or all Lands are 5/5 => instant win
Thinking about winning on the spot in Pioneer:
Craterhoof's brothers: End-Raze Forerunners , Decimator of the Provinces