I agree that you really can’t look at the card as anything but a combo piece. My initial point was not that it was a great card in a vacuum...rather that it was a potential infinite combo in Modern Devotion. It’s not good enough on it’s own on straight power level. It’s not worth playing unless you work on comboing with it (even then it may be too many hurdles). Often times you have to give up raw card power when focusing on synergy. As far as other formats are concerned; I don’t really think a ton about standard/limited implications (I really just was discussing it as a combo piece for Modern Devotion).
I can’t say with certainty it’s good, bad, or in between. My gut tells me it would require building around to even remotely make it worth it (I.e. it couldn’t just slot into most Devotion decks). Like I said, it does require itself, Nykthos, and a board..I just never pay any attention to my gut or theory crafting...I’ve been wrong enough to know just to play the card and see how it goes :).
I can’t get it to fit in my Karn list (as honestly there are no slots left to change)...but I will put one in my creature-based deck and let everyone know if it is something that ever comes up.
I do think you are right in the sense that it can only make the cut if the synergy is powerful/consistent enough to overcome the lower power of the individual card.
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I am excited for the New Vivien Reid and the Mythic Green Creature that is part of the ETB/Dies trigger cycle though! And of course I always keep my fingers crossed for GG “draw a card” etb creature :).
At this point I think we (Devotion) are truly viable...we are just looking for incremental improvements where we can get them!
On Mana Lines with Kiora, Garruk, & Nykthos
You don’t have to humor me...I know what they do and how good they are :). I just thought it would be super helpful for those reading your math to also get a feel for the lines involving Kiora, Nykthos, and/or Garruk (as they can lead to son pretty busted lines).
It does get a little complicated because you start taking into account untapping, what you can cast after you untap on the same turn, etc...then it matters what you draw in turns two and three (rather than what is just in your opening hand), etc. In play it doesn't feel as complicated as it seems on paper....but I can totally see where that starts getting into a lot of tangents. Nevertheless, even the most basic lines may be helpful. I’ll try to write out as many as I can think of as well.
Either way...we have a LOT of ways to get to 6 and 7 mana by turn 3 now...more than enough. I have played Devotion for 6 years now (I don't remember exactly when they spoiled Nykthos...but that is when I moved from Elves to Devotion) and the deck has never felt so consistent, fast, and powerful.
Ravenous Hydra seems like a kinda cool way to get some creature removal in a purely Mono-green deck. It is interesting to compare this to Ballista (a little cheaper when dealing with a single creature while still living...obviously can scale like crazy...but far less versatile ). Love that it starts with 1 toughness. What are everyone’s thought?
A lot of us play a more "combo-centric" deck; but I can see I this being playable in the more "Green Control" versions of Devotion that some prefer to play. You also run into the issue of once you've hit six mana, you have Vraska to kill any creature, etc. (of course when you get into other colors you get superior removal options).
I’m liking the green “ETB Focus” in the set. In honesty, I don't expect much from Core Sets; but this one has some really cool design thus far...Here's to hoping the Mythic Creature, Vivien, and/or Green Leyline are all good
Ravenous Hydra seems like a kinda cool way to get some creature removal in a purely Mono-green deck. It is interesting to compare this to Ballista (a little cheaper when dealing with a single creature while still living...obviously can scale like crazy...but far less versatile ). Love that it starts with 1 toughness. What are everyone’s thought?
This one's not too bad. The fact it can double its size if it ever lacks a fight target means there's always something productive it can do. Still, I think I prefer Ravager Wurm to this. Ravager Wurm is always at least as big as Ravenous Hydra when X equals 4, and Ravager Wurm's ability to destroy lands (and sometimes even planeswalkers) feels a lot safer than making a big trampler when there's nothing to fight. The fact the Hydra scales as well as it having trample kind of makes this an apples to oranges comparison though.
EDIT: Has anyone seen Veil of Summer? I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but that card looks crazy to me. In the right matchup, it's a 2-for-1 for 1 mana. And it's super versatile too. It protects me, and all of my permanents, and makes my spells uncounterable. It does so much for 1 mana.
One of my concerns with Veil of Summer is that, because my deck is so proactive and reliably uses all of its mana the first two turns of the game, Veil of Summer might lose a lot of its effectiveness since, if I'm always tapping out, I won't have any mana up to stop any errant Thoughtseize or Fatal Push. Anywho, I think it's worth seriously considering as a sideboard card. It still has so much going for it.
I know! Viel has so much going on in one card it is really hard to get a grasp on exactly how it would play out...but that is a LOT of use in one card for only one mana.
You know, I kind of want to go back and elaborate on Veil of Summer because, when I said it was a 2-for-1, that was true, but that doesn't really paint the whole picture. See, there are different kinds of 2-for-1s, and some are more valuable than others. For instance, compare Mind Rot to a card like Wicked Pact. Both will give me card advantage, but Wicked Pact is typically better than Mind Rot since the creatures Wicked Pact destroys are cards that my opponent probably had to spend mana (and therefore turns) developing. With Mind Rot, I get just as many cards, but I don't get the tempo advantage that a card like Wicked Pact creates.
What's great about Veil of Summer beyond it being a 2-for-1 is that it often protects cards I've already invested mana in. This makes it a whole lot better than, say, the following card:
Worse Veil of SummerG Instant
Until end of turn, for the first time this turn, if a blue or black spell an opponent controls targets you, targets a permanent you control, or counters a spell you control, draw two cards.
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So the Green Leyline is...interesting. It’s a lot of hoops and I don’t think Arbor Elf counts as a mana ability; so the deck would have to be built differently to take advantage of it. Doesn’t fit in my deck; but could see someone building around it (Twoo built a Leyline Devotion deck years ago with the other green Leylines and this one at minimum fits better in that deck...)
It would make for some REALLY fun brews though There are silly things you can do if you start with 2-devotion (or 4 if you hit two in your opening hand!)
Having said this...man does it seems like we are going back to Theros! Just seems like a lot of Theros plants. Fingers crossed.
The green leyline is kinda exciting to be honest. This in your opening hand + any dork (apart from arbor elf) gives you 4 manas on turn 2. It even seems likelier to happen than our favorite Arbor + Utopia Sprawl combo since it required these specific cards to work (when Leyline works with both Llanowar and Birds).
This needs to be seriously considered. I don't know if it's a game changer but it has a lot of potential.
Summer veil I don't really like because of the color restriction. I suppose it could work in some sideboards but I'm not so sure.
Hadn't checked the topic in a while, I see you've been brewing with Llanowar Tribe. I didn't expect this card to have an impact but here we are
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
1.)Leyline of Abundance doesn't work with Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, or Overgrowth, and those three cards are some of the best, if not the best, at making mana in Modern. As such, if I want to support Leyline of Abundance, I'll need to play with objectively worse cards. Granted, that may be okay. If the synergy is powerful enough, then there's nothing wrong with playing worse cards; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts after all. I just suspect that this may not be the case with Leyline of Abundance.
2.) There's no way to make Leyline of Abundance redundant. Sure, the games I have it, a 1-drop, and two lands make getting to 4 relatively easy, but I'm not always going to have Leyline of Abundance, and in the games where I don't I'm effectively playing a much worse ramp deck. If there were other cards that could supplement Leyline of Abundance, this wouldn't be so bad, but the next most effective way to reach 4 turn 2 is by playing something like Simian Spirit Guide or Gemstone Caverns, neither of which are very appealing.
3.)Leyline of Abundance is risky. Not only do I need it in my opening hand to be effective, but it also makes me more vulnerable to disruption. In a regular ramp deck, if an opponent Bolts my Bird, that sucks, but at the end of the day it's still a 1-for-1. In a deck with Leyline, when an opponent Bolts my Bird, not only is my Bird dead, but they've also invalidated my Leyline until I manage to stick something. That can turn Bolt into a 2-for-1 or better depending on the circumstances, so not only will I need to play worse cards to support Leyline of Abundance, but the consequences of having these worse cards destroyed are even more disastrous than they would normally be.
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Don't forget that we will have to deal with the London Mulligan in less than a Month. So be prepared for guaranteed t1 discard effects,super fast degenerate combo decks, consistent T3 Karn and other fun stuff again.
You make good points. Not sure about n°1 in my case since I don't play Overgrowth, but the rest is fair.
Leyline is also better at building devotion, which is another selling point.
We'll get to see what people brew. I think IF we want to try it, I could see Arbor Elf getting the axe, and us playing more mana dorks (even a few Noble Hierarchs). Here is a list I threw together : I reduced slightly my toolbox, removed the Oath of Nissa, added more dorks and more tutors. I've been trying Llanowar Tribe in place of my Jadelight Rangers, and wow these guys work hard, although they are a bit of a nombo with Burning Tree Emissaries.
I'm not a great deckbuilder so take this list with a grain of salt, but it can ramp up very fast beyond tron mana. I might consider adding even more tutors to the list to get them more consistently...
Even managed a dirty T2 kill in my goldfishing ^^
Leyline on the battelfield.
T1 : land + Noble Hierarch
T2 : Nykthos + Burning Tree + Burning Tree + Bird of Paradise + Pact of Negation ==> Craterhoof Behemoth since I had 8 devotion on the battlefield.
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Elvish Reclaimer is a really interesting way to get Nykthos and any utility land (Blast Zone, Wolf Run, Ghost Quarter, etc.) in play quickly. Like a cheaper (but less ramp/huge) KOR (that also doesn’t require white).
It’s Super powerful (seems Modern-pushed) but i don’t know what we would cut to use it :). The lists are so tuned now that there aren’t a ton of slots left). We also don’t HAVE to have Nykthos anymore to get to 6-7 mana by turn 3; so it is less of an early imperative than it used to be...but a Nykthos tutor is a huge deal when stuck to a 1-drop permanent....Ugh...
There are definite downsides though...summoning sick, takes 2-mana to activate, AND the land comes into play tapped. Granted, we can untap it with Kiora and Garruk (I cant count the games I’ve cast Prime Time to grab a Nykthos and untapped it)...but that is a lot of hoops to jump through to tutor a Land.
I imagine this is about as good as we are gonna get for a Nykthos tutor; so at minimum I’m going to test it. It’s an ability we can really take advantage of stuck to a good body that pays for itself with Nykthos in play. I’ll let everyone know how it goes.
I think Leyline would just require an entirely different build (no Arbor Elf, nonUtopia Sprawl, etc.) and possibly a means to obtain infinite mana (to make its creature pump ability a win-con)
There is absolutely nothing wrong brewing a new build...just if you are building with Leyline you can’t just port it in to existing builds. It will require its own build.
Not really...I just don't see porting it into current Devotion lists. I think you are on the right track with it. You got rid of the Arbor Elf (I do understand why you kept Utopia Sprawl with playing Garruk, but you may be better off playing another Noble Hierarch or two instead of one ore more just to get the most out of Leyline.). I just don't think Leyeline works in the current Devotion builds...but that just means you get to brew!
I'm not saying that there is not a Leyline Devotion brew (the card is bonkers in the right build)...just that it doesn't port into the Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl/Llanowar tribe builds. I think there is a Leyline Devotion deck out there. We just have to (get to!) build it. Leylines can work very well with the Devotion mechanic. In this case, I feel like in order to get enough out of the card, you need to build around it. You wanna make sure you always have a mana-dork (not Arbor Elf or Utopia Sprawl), etc.
I don't think the Leyline lists will look THAT different from the current devotion lists; but they will be different.
Yes...a little. It helps that it is a 1-drop. There are large downsides. The 2-mana to tap the ability is the biggest one (as it taxes you the turn you tutor and even then the land comes into play tapped). I had always hoped for an ETB "search a land" creatura at 2-3 CMC; but it looks like this is as far as they will go
New leyline certainly needs a critical mass of one drop dorks.
Something like Tokenproducers in combination with Cryptolith Rite and Leyline of Abundance? supportet with Song of Freyalise ? Maybe Sheanigans with Animation Module + Metallic Mimic as "Flesh" Producers or the good old SwordCopter combination. Zendikar Nissa (Plants and +1/+1 Counters) and Rishkar, Peema Renegade. And this brew idea need many manasinks
The setup is very dificult and fairly easy to disrupt, but imho this the way to break the green Leyline. Maybe there are better ideas that i posted here.
Went to a little Wednesday Night Modern at my LGS, not a big tournament but it's the only thing I've been able to get to since Horizons dropped. Playing that Naya Eladamri's Call Tooth and Nail list from upthread.
R1: Infect 1-2
G1: This one was close, and came down to me drawing land. I didn't.
G2: A quick tooth and Nail wins this one.
G3: This was a learning experience. I died with call in hand and my only ballista in my graveyard. I need more than one tutorable removal effect in the 75 I think.
R2 WU Control 2-1
G1: I lost in typical 'they stick a Teferi' fashion.
G2: His first two lands are Colonnades, so end of his second turn I call Magus of the Moon. He finds an Island later but it doesn't save him.
G3: I win with fast beats backed up by Scavenging Ooze locking down the graveyard.
R3 Spirits 2-1
G1: I flooded out and died.
G2 and G3 I win with prime time beats and a 7/7 ballista in there somewhere. I don't remember which game though. Playing an early titan and threatening to Wolf Run their face is a good way to win this matchup.
2-1 overall
Takeaway: Eladamri's Call is very good. I have been super impressed with the flexibility it gives the deck, especially in post-board games. I still don't think I have the exact right mix of tutor targets, and which go main vs side. I think I want more creatures in the sideboard in general, though. I'll test more and work it out as I go.
EDIT: Has anyone seen Veil of Summer? I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but that card looks crazy to me. In the right matchup, it's a 2-for-1 for 1 mana. And it's super versatile too. It protects me, and all of my permanents, and makes my spells uncounterable. It does so much for 1 mana.
One of my concerns with Veil of Summer is that, because my deck is so proactive and reliably uses all of its mana the first two turns of the game, Veil of Summer might lose a lot of its effectiveness since, if I'm always tapping out, I won't have any mana up to stop any errant Thoughtseize or Fatal Push. Anywho, I think it's worth seriously considering as a sideboard card. It still has so much going for it.
I'm pretty hyped about this one. I've looked at Autumn's Veil before as a way to deal with some bad matchups, but that card just doesn't do enough. Veil of Summer is so much stronger.
Reach — I'm glad this has reach instead of trample. Ramp decks backpedal a lot, and the 5/6 body combined with reach makes it so that the Cavalier can mitigate pressure that other cards wouldn't be able to. It also isn't important that the Cavalier lacks trample. As a 5-drop, Cavalier of Thorns is a stepping stone. I'm not trying to win the game with it, so I don't care if it can push through damage. What I do care about is whether or not it puts me in a better position the next turn. Trample doesn't do that, but the entire package surrounding Cavalier of Thorns (reach included) does.
ETB, Elvish Rejuvenator — Not a perfect analogy. The land the Cavalier finds comes into play untapped. The remaining cards are also binned instead of being bottomed. Still, the two effects are similar. Having played Elvish Rejuvenator before, I can attest that digging five cards deep is enough to rarely brick with the ability but nothing more. It effectively amounts to getting a random land. With that said, this is still a nice ability to have. Although ramping isn't usually what I want on a 5-drop, it isn't so bad when it's bundled together with the rest of Cavalier's abilities. In the instances where I make it to 5 on turn 3 but not to 6 or 7, I may have a hand full of bombs and not enough mana to cast them. Or maybe an opponent interacted with me, and I would have had enough mana to cast whatever top end is left in my hand, but now I only have 5. That will happen sometimes, and in either case Cavalier of Thorns will help.
Dies, Reclaim — Putting a card back on top of my deck is a lot less salient than putting it into my hand, but this effect is still a lot better than what people give it credit for. A smattering of fetchlands ensures that Cavalier of Thorns will always have lands at its disposal if I want to make my land drop next turn. The fact that the Cavalier's second ability mulches also means it sets itself up. When the Cavalier is answered (as it often will be), it can find a replacement threat for me to deploy the next turn. That is an extremely important quality to have, and one that shouldn't be understated. If I'm playing a ramp deck, I don't want to invest all of my mana and all of my turns into casting some sort of payoff card only to then see that payoff card answered to no lasting effect. That could mean losing the game. Cavalier of Thorns makes it so that I can follow it up after it dies, something other 5-drops seldom do.
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Reach — I'm glad this has reach instead of trample. Ramp decks backpedal a lot, and the 5/6 body combined with reach makes it so that the Cavalier can mitigate pressure that other cards wouldn't be able to. It also isn't important that the Cavalier lacks trample. As a 5-drop, Cavalier of Thorns is a stepping stone. I'm not trying to win the game with it, so I don't care if it can push through damage. What I do care about is whether or not it puts me in a better position the next turn. Trample doesn't do that, but the entire package surrounding Cavalier of Thorns (reach included) does.
ETB, Elvish Rejuvenator — Not a perfect analogy. The land the Cavalier finds comes into play untapped. The remaining cards are also binned instead of being bottomed. Still, the two effects are similar. Having played Elvish Rejuvenator before, I can attest that digging five cards deep is enough to rarely brick with the ability but nothing more. It effectively amounts to getting a random land. With that said, this is still a nice ability to have. Although ramping isn't usually what I want on a 5-drop, it isn't so bad when it's bundled together with the rest of Cavalier's abilities. In the instances where I make it to 5 on turn 3 but not to 6 or 7, I may have a hand full of bombs and not enough mana to cast them. Or maybe an opponent interacted with me, and I would have had enough mana to cast whatever top end is left in my hand, but now I only have 5. That will happen sometimes, and in either case Cavalier of Thorns will help.
Dies, Reclaim — Putting a card back on top of my deck is a lot less salient than putting it into my hand, but this effect is still a lot better than what people give it credit for. A smattering of fetchlands ensures that Cavalier of Thorns will always have lands at its disposal if I want to make my land drop next turn. The fact that the Cavalier's second ability mulches also means it sets itself up. When the Cavalier is answered (as it often will be), it can find a replacement threat for me to deploy the next turn. That is an extremely important quality to have, and one that shouldn't be understated. If I'm playing a ramp deck, I don't want to invest all of my mana and all of my turns into casting some sort of payoff card only to then see that payoff card answered to no lasting effect. That could mean losing the game. Cavalier of Thorns makes it so that I can follow it up after it dies, something other 5-drops seldom do.
I have to agree. It’s far better than its currently being considered. Reach (with 6 toughness) is big deal (shores up a big weakness of green decks)...it grabs ANY land from the top five and puts it into play untapped...with the amount of draw effects we can play there are numerous ways to take advantage of his death trigger. by thy point, we will also have ample mana; so being able to put another threat on top is a big deal (helps mitigate the “wrong half” problem ramp decks can run into by ensuring we keep gassing up.
Of course it may not end up making the cut if the value isn’t fast enough; but it is absolutely worth testing (as 5-CMC is a great spot...and as ArrogantAxolotl said; it’s one of the best 5-cmc green creatures printed). For me at least; the power level is there (and three devotion to boot!)
I can’t say with certainty it’s good, bad, or in between. My gut tells me it would require building around to even remotely make it worth it (I.e. it couldn’t just slot into most Devotion decks). Like I said, it does require itself, Nykthos, and a board..I just never pay any attention to my gut or theory crafting...I’ve been wrong enough to know just to play the card and see how it goes :).
I can’t get it to fit in my Karn list (as honestly there are no slots left to change)...but I will put one in my creature-based deck and let everyone know if it is something that ever comes up.
I do think you are right in the sense that it can only make the cut if the synergy is powerful/consistent enough to overcome the lower power of the individual card.
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I am excited for the New Vivien Reid and the Mythic Green Creature that is part of the ETB/Dies trigger cycle though! And of course I always keep my fingers crossed for GG “draw a card” etb creature :).
At this point I think we (Devotion) are truly viable...we are just looking for incremental improvements where we can get them!
On Mana Lines with Kiora, Garruk, & Nykthos
You don’t have to humor me...I know what they do and how good they are :). I just thought it would be super helpful for those reading your math to also get a feel for the lines involving Kiora, Nykthos, and/or Garruk (as they can lead to son pretty busted lines).
It does get a little complicated because you start taking into account untapping, what you can cast after you untap on the same turn, etc...then it matters what you draw in turns two and three (rather than what is just in your opening hand), etc. In play it doesn't feel as complicated as it seems on paper....but I can totally see where that starts getting into a lot of tangents. Nevertheless, even the most basic lines may be helpful. I’ll try to write out as many as I can think of as well.
Either way...we have a LOT of ways to get to 6 and 7 mana by turn 3 now...more than enough. I have played Devotion for 6 years now (I don't remember exactly when they spoiled Nykthos...but that is when I moved from Elves to Devotion) and the deck has never felt so consistent, fast, and powerful.
A lot of us play a more "combo-centric" deck; but I can see I this being playable in the more "Green Control" versions of Devotion that some prefer to play. You also run into the issue of once you've hit six mana, you have Vraska to kill any creature, etc. (of course when you get into other colors you get superior removal options).
I’m liking the green “ETB Focus” in the set. In honesty, I don't expect much from Core Sets; but this one has some really cool design thus far...Here's to hoping the Mythic Creature, Vivien, and/or Green Leyline are all good
EDIT: Has anyone seen Veil of Summer? I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but that card looks crazy to me. In the right matchup, it's a 2-for-1 for 1 mana. And it's super versatile too. It protects me, and all of my permanents, and makes my spells uncounterable. It does so much for 1 mana.
One of my concerns with Veil of Summer is that, because my deck is so proactive and reliably uses all of its mana the first two turns of the game, Veil of Summer might lose a lot of its effectiveness since, if I'm always tapping out, I won't have any mana up to stop any errant Thoughtseize or Fatal Push. Anywho, I think it's worth seriously considering as a sideboard card. It still has so much going for it.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
What's great about Veil of Summer beyond it being a 2-for-1 is that it often protects cards I've already invested mana in. This makes it a whole lot better than, say, the following card:
Instant
Until end of turn, for the first time this turn, if a blue or black spell an opponent controls targets you, targets a permanent you control, or counters a spell you control, draw two cards.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
It would make for some REALLY fun brews though
Having said this...man does it seems like we are going back to Theros! Just seems like a lot of Theros plants. Fingers crossed.
The green leyline is kinda exciting to be honest. This in your opening hand + any dork (apart from arbor elf) gives you 4 manas on turn 2. It even seems likelier to happen than our favorite Arbor + Utopia Sprawl combo since it required these specific cards to work (when Leyline works with both Llanowar and Birds).
This needs to be seriously considered. I don't know if it's a game changer but it has a lot of potential.
Summer veil I don't really like because of the color restriction. I suppose it could work in some sideboards but I'm not so sure.
Hadn't checked the topic in a while, I see you've been brewing with Llanowar Tribe. I didn't expect this card to have an impact but here we are
Modern :
Legacy :
1.) Leyline of Abundance doesn't work with Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, or Overgrowth, and those three cards are some of the best, if not the best, at making mana in Modern. As such, if I want to support Leyline of Abundance, I'll need to play with objectively worse cards. Granted, that may be okay. If the synergy is powerful enough, then there's nothing wrong with playing worse cards; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts after all. I just suspect that this may not be the case with Leyline of Abundance.
2.) There's no way to make Leyline of Abundance redundant. Sure, the games I have it, a 1-drop, and two lands make getting to 4 relatively easy, but I'm not always going to have Leyline of Abundance, and in the games where I don't I'm effectively playing a much worse ramp deck. If there were other cards that could supplement Leyline of Abundance, this wouldn't be so bad, but the next most effective way to reach 4 turn 2 is by playing something like Simian Spirit Guide or Gemstone Caverns, neither of which are very appealing.
3.) Leyline of Abundance is risky. Not only do I need it in my opening hand to be effective, but it also makes me more vulnerable to disruption. In a regular ramp deck, if an opponent Bolts my Bird, that sucks, but at the end of the day it's still a 1-for-1. In a deck with Leyline, when an opponent Bolts my Bird, not only is my Bird dead, but they've also invalidated my Leyline until I manage to stick something. That can turn Bolt into a 2-for-1 or better depending on the circumstances, so not only will I need to play worse cards to support Leyline of Abundance, but the consequences of having these worse cards destroyed are even more disastrous than they would normally be.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Leyline is also better at building devotion, which is another selling point.
We'll get to see what people brew. I think IF we want to try it, I could see Arbor Elf getting the axe, and us playing more mana dorks (even a few Noble Hierarchs). Here is a list I threw together : I reduced slightly my toolbox, removed the Oath of Nissa, added more dorks and more tutors. I've been trying Llanowar Tribe in place of my Jadelight Rangers, and wow these guys work hard, although they are a bit of a nombo with Burning Tree Emissaries.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Eternal Witness
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Llanowar Tribe
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Woodland Bellower
2 Finale of Devastation
4 Summoner's Pact
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Enchantments (8)
4 Leyline of Abundance
4 Utopia Sprawl
Lands (20)
8 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
I'm not a great deckbuilder so take this list with a grain of salt, but it can ramp up very fast beyond tron mana. I might consider adding even more tutors to the list to get them more consistently...
Even managed a dirty T2 kill in my goldfishing ^^
Leyline on the battelfield.
T1 : land + Noble Hierarch
T2 : Nykthos + Burning Tree + Burning Tree + Bird of Paradise + Pact of Negation ==> Craterhoof Behemoth since I had 8 devotion on the battlefield.
Modern :
Legacy :
It’s Super powerful (seems Modern-pushed) but i don’t know what we would cut to use it :). The lists are so tuned now that there aren’t a ton of slots left). We also don’t HAVE to have Nykthos anymore to get to 6-7 mana by turn 3; so it is less of an early imperative than it used to be...but a Nykthos tutor is a huge deal when stuck to a 1-drop permanent....Ugh...
There are definite downsides though...summoning sick, takes 2-mana to activate, AND the land comes into play tapped. Granted, we can untap it with Kiora and Garruk (I cant count the games I’ve cast Prime Time to grab a Nykthos and untapped it)...but that is a lot of hoops to jump through to tutor a Land.
I imagine this is about as good as we are gonna get for a Nykthos tutor; so at minimum I’m going to test it. It’s an ability we can really take advantage of stuck to a good body that pays for itself with Nykthos in play. I’ll let everyone know how it goes.
Could be good but I'll let you test it ^^
Modern :
Legacy :
I think Leyline would just require an entirely different build (no Arbor Elf, nonUtopia Sprawl, etc.) and possibly a means to obtain infinite mana (to make its creature pump ability a win-con)
There is absolutely nothing wrong brewing a new build...just if you are building with Leyline you can’t just port it in to existing builds. It will require its own build.
Modern :
Legacy :
I'm not saying that there is not a Leyline Devotion brew (the card is bonkers in the right build)...just that it doesn't port into the Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl/Llanowar tribe builds. I think there is a Leyline Devotion deck out there. We just have to (get to!) build it. Leylines can work very well with the Devotion mechanic. In this case, I feel like in order to get enough out of the card, you need to build around it. You wanna make sure you always have a mana-dork (not Arbor Elf or Utopia Sprawl), etc.
I don't think the Leyline lists will look THAT different from the current devotion lists; but they will be different.
Yes...a little. It helps that it is a 1-drop. There are large downsides. The 2-mana to tap the ability is the biggest one (as it taxes you the turn you tutor and even then the land comes into play tapped). I had always hoped for an ETB "search a land" creatura at 2-3 CMC; but it looks like this is as far as they will go
Something like Tokenproducers in combination with
Cryptolith Rite and Leyline of Abundance? supportet with Song of Freyalise ? Maybe Sheanigans with Animation Module + Metallic Mimic as "Flesh" Producers or the good old SwordCopter combination. Zendikar Nissa (Plants and +1/+1 Counters) and Rishkar, Peema Renegade. And this brew idea need many manasinks
The setup is very dificult and fairly easy to disrupt, but imho this the way to break the green Leyline. Maybe there are better ideas that i posted here.
R1: Infect 1-2
G1: This one was close, and came down to me drawing land. I didn't.
G2: A quick tooth and Nail wins this one.
G3: This was a learning experience. I died with call in hand and my only ballista in my graveyard. I need more than one tutorable removal effect in the 75 I think.
R2 WU Control 2-1
G1: I lost in typical 'they stick a Teferi' fashion.
G2: His first two lands are Colonnades, so end of his second turn I call Magus of the Moon. He finds an Island later but it doesn't save him.
G3: I win with fast beats backed up by Scavenging Ooze locking down the graveyard.
R3 Spirits 2-1
G1: I flooded out and died.
G2 and G3 I win with prime time beats and a 7/7 ballista in there somewhere. I don't remember which game though. Playing an early titan and threatening to Wolf Run their face is a good way to win this matchup.
2-1 overall
Takeaway: Eladamri's Call is very good. I have been super impressed with the flexibility it gives the deck, especially in post-board games. I still don't think I have the exact right mix of tutor targets, and which go main vs side. I think I want more creatures in the sideboard in general, though. I'll test more and work it out as I go.
I'm pretty hyped about this one. I've looked at Autumn's Veil before as a way to deal with some bad matchups, but that card just doesn't do enough. Veil of Summer is so much stronger.
Reach — I'm glad this has reach instead of trample. Ramp decks backpedal a lot, and the 5/6 body combined with reach makes it so that the Cavalier can mitigate pressure that other cards wouldn't be able to. It also isn't important that the Cavalier lacks trample. As a 5-drop, Cavalier of Thorns is a stepping stone. I'm not trying to win the game with it, so I don't care if it can push through damage. What I do care about is whether or not it puts me in a better position the next turn. Trample doesn't do that, but the entire package surrounding Cavalier of Thorns (reach included) does.
ETB, Elvish Rejuvenator — Not a perfect analogy. The land the Cavalier finds comes into play untapped. The remaining cards are also binned instead of being bottomed. Still, the two effects are similar. Having played Elvish Rejuvenator before, I can attest that digging five cards deep is enough to rarely brick with the ability but nothing more. It effectively amounts to getting a random land. With that said, this is still a nice ability to have. Although ramping isn't usually what I want on a 5-drop, it isn't so bad when it's bundled together with the rest of Cavalier's abilities. In the instances where I make it to 5 on turn 3 but not to 6 or 7, I may have a hand full of bombs and not enough mana to cast them. Or maybe an opponent interacted with me, and I would have had enough mana to cast whatever top end is left in my hand, but now I only have 5. That will happen sometimes, and in either case Cavalier of Thorns will help.
Dies, Reclaim — Putting a card back on top of my deck is a lot less salient than putting it into my hand, but this effect is still a lot better than what people give it credit for. A smattering of fetchlands ensures that Cavalier of Thorns will always have lands at its disposal if I want to make my land drop next turn. The fact that the Cavalier's second ability mulches also means it sets itself up. When the Cavalier is answered (as it often will be), it can find a replacement threat for me to deploy the next turn. That is an extremely important quality to have, and one that shouldn't be understated. If I'm playing a ramp deck, I don't want to invest all of my mana and all of my turns into casting some sort of payoff card only to then see that payoff card answered to no lasting effect. That could mean losing the game. Cavalier of Thorns makes it so that I can follow it up after it dies, something other 5-drops seldom do.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I have to agree. It’s far better than its currently being considered. Reach (with 6 toughness) is big deal (shores up a big weakness of green decks)...it grabs ANY land from the top five and puts it into play untapped...with the amount of draw effects we can play there are numerous ways to take advantage of his death trigger. by thy point, we will also have ample mana; so being able to put another threat on top is a big deal (helps mitigate the “wrong half” problem ramp decks can run into by ensuring we keep gassing up.
Of course it may not end up making the cut if the value isn’t fast enough; but it is absolutely worth testing (as 5-CMC is a great spot...and as ArrogantAxolotl said; it’s one of the best 5-cmc green creatures printed). For me at least; the power level is there (and three devotion to boot!)