to kill gaddock teeg, (which typically the green white decks that he's played in come with small creatures to begin with) just about any of our creatures paired with Domri Rade is good creature removal.
Last year for a while I played this Against the odds primal surge deck and had some success with it. But now with the new sets i'm trying to figure out how to upgrade it. cards like Nissa, Who Shakes the WorldKiora, Behemoth Beckoner have me interested in it again and wanting to upgrade it.
So far this is the version i'm piloting in testing, I'd like to know what you guys think, I don't have the strongest grasp yet on the new modern horizon meta.
to kill gaddock teeg, (which typically the green white decks that he's played in come with small creatures to begin with) just about any of our creatures paired with Domri Rade is good creature removal.
Yeah...I need to update the primer before they lock it for good. Need to add War, Llanowar Tribe, the Madcap deck, and a dozen other things I’ve made notes on. I will do so within the week.
You are right that black is the best splash for sideboard options right now. Between Leyline of the Void, Force of Despair, Trophy, Thoughtsieze, etc. it’s a great option when the format gets hyper linear/combo heavy.
I’m a big fan of Domri (both three drops). I think Domri, Anarch of Bolas is a great 3-drop. I think it pushes Gruul Devotion hard (as it already had some great pieces).
Long time lurker on this forum, and appreciate how much activity there always is! With printing of Llanowar Tribe, I wanted to dust off and upgrade my Green Devotion List. I unfortunately have a razor thin budget, so don't have the ability in the near term to go the toolbox route (don't own any Summoner's Pacts) or the new Karn combo route (no Karn, the Great Creator or Mycosynth Lattice). What I do have is an old school NyxWave shell, and am just hoping to get as much mileage out of it as possible at the next FNM.
I would love some feedback from all of you expert green mages on how this looks. Specifically curious to know:
Is the additional ramp from Llanowar Tribe worth the loss of card advantage from Wistful Selkie (since Tribe is moving into that slot)?
Should run more Genesis Wave if that's the major payoff card?
Is it even worth running Ruric Thar in the sideboard if I don't have fetch/shock lands, so just relying on Birds and Utopia Sprawl for red mana?
Yeah...I need to update the primer before they lock it for good.
The-powers-that-be actually found an 11th hour buyer, so now MTGS won't actually be shutting down. From the look of it though, virtually all the staff are still leaving for the new website they had in the works. I'll be joining them on that exodus.
1) Card advantage is only good in longer games...Modern has become very fast lately so it's best to just go fast with it. Llanowar Tribe helps in this regard.
2) Genesis Wave is kind of eh in my opinion. ALthough with Tribe, it may be easier to obtain large amounts of mana. I already think your top end with Craterhoof and Primetime is good enough as a finisher...so perhaps Wave is just fine as a value 2-of.
3) Not a lot of decks like Storm for Ruric Thar to trounce lately...I don't think he's super necessary at the moment.
I think the thing I like most about Llanowar Tribe is that it feels like a card that is only for us What I mean is that while it doesn't require Devotion to be good (tapping for three mana is extremely powerful); with Devotion it is bonkers powerful. I like when we can differentiate ourselves from other decks (i.e. so we are not just Amulet, Tron, etc. from a different angle) and I feel like Tribe helps us do that.
Yeah, I like this about Llanowar Tribe too. I mean, if he cost 2G instead of GGG, that wouldn't make any difference; I'd still be playing the card. I just suppose it's nice knowing there's something extremely powerful I can play that other decks can't touch simply because of his casting cost.
Three Chandra’s in Core set 2020 were spoiled (uncommon, rare, and mythic). Two seem strong. Keeping my fingers crossed for three Vivien’s Chandra is the face of the set; so it’s very possible she is the only walker to get the “story progression” walkers. It would be really cool if they did it for all three though (and especially useful for us). **edit..magic stated Chandra is the only 3-card walker in the set...but we do get a mythic Green Walker **.
I'm definitely excited to see a new mythic green walker.
On the topic of Chandra, I can't help but roll my eyes. Chandra, Novice Pyromancer will be great in Limited but not anywhere else. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame looks like a steaming pile of garbage. Her 0 abilities are two of the most ineffectual things I've ever seen on a planeswalker to date, and her minus ability is like a slower, disruptable, more restrictive Pull from the Deep. She's not Tibalt levels of bad, but she's a real stinker.
Chandra, Awakened Inferno is the most interesting of the three versions, but she isn't without her fair share of problems either. Her plus ability, while really cool, is painfully slow, so slow in fact that it might not even matter in stalemates. Her having a +2 ability combined with her 6 starting loyalty makes her really difficult to kill, which is excellent, but that incredible amount of loyalty is wasted by not having any worthwhile minus abilities; they're just all so underwhelming. Yes, Firespout is fine. If I'm facing down a board that consists exactly of a bunch of relevant but tiny creatures, her -3 will shine. In too many cases it just won't matter though. And her -X is even worse. One damage for one loyalty is an abysmal rate; Chandra Nalaar taught us that centuries ago. Sure, Awakened Inferno is certainly better at gaining loyalty than Chandra Nalaar is, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't that valuable as a loyalty sink even if it can hit other planeswalkers. Now, if she could damage players directly, THAT would be amazing. But as she currently stands, this version of Chandra is super ignorable. Even if my opponent casts her during a stalemate where I have no way to deal with her, she's too slow to kill and often lacks ways to use her loyalty meaningfully.
Another card I’ve been testing is Garruk, Caller of Beasts. It’s at the 6-mana sweet spot, can refill if you don’t have the pieces you want; and can also cheat-in huge creatures the same turn. Obviously there is the fun of Progenitus; but even for things like Craterhoof, Elderscale Wurm, Terasradon, Dragonlord Atarka, etc. that 1-3 mana difference can be a full turn.
Well, I'd be happy to learn what you think of him once you've gotten the chance to test him thoroughly. From my perspective, he looks pretty bad. His 4 starting loyalty makes him fairly vulnerable, and his minus ability only affecting green creatures means he seriously restricts what I can cheat into play off of him. Not to mention, its usefulness is reliant on me actually having something valuable to put into play, and that's something I won't always have even in the instances where doing so would otherwise be good. I suppose Garruk's most redeeming element is his plus ability. I could generate quite a lot of value with it, and if I hit something expensive, I might be able to play it for free next turn. Even so, I think there are better alternatives. If I want to cheat creatures into play, for the same amount of mana I'd be better off casting See the Unwritten or Summoning Trap. Those cards dig deeper than one activation of Garruk, and they don't limit me to green creatures either.
Well guys, it's been fun lurking here and occasionally discussing deck lists but I think this is the end of my modern magic career. I just went up to my LGS to get my playset of Llanowar Tribe and opened up my magic bag to find that my modern deck had been stolen. I turned the entire backpack and store inside out looking for it but to no avail. I know it's not at my house because I only goldfish my lists by using TappedOut.net to avoid wear-and-tear on my cards. My deckbox also contained all the D20s and D6s I've been collecting since I started playing magic back in Theros, so my only conclusion can be that I took out the box to use my dice at the War of the Spark prerelease and someone decided to help themselves to my deck when I turned my back.
This is now twice that this has happened at that store, first with my Commander deck several years ago and now with the modern deck I spent years collecting cards for. I simply don't have the money to spend on rebuilding the deck from scratch with what little remains in my trade binder. It's been quite the ride the past couple of years but I can't bring myself to invest more money and emotional energy in this game if my cards are just going to get periodically stolen.
I'll definitely swing by every once in a while to lurk or theory craft around my favorite green cards but this is goodbye for now. I'll always look back on my years playing this game fondly. Until then, keep your Primal Commands looped and your Nykthos's untapped. May RNGesus smile upon you and remember to always play to your outs. Magic my seem like a fickle mistress at times but if there's one thing I've learned from this game over the years it's that there's no point in getting frustrated at the parts of the game that you can't control. Just do the best with the information you have and your win rate will thank you for it in the long run.
Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, but I want to let you know that I sympathize with you. I lost a masterpiece Mana Crypt a few months ago, and while I thankfully got it back, the whole debacle was seriously depressing. I hope things ultimately work out for you in the end.
2) This is a bit of a sleeper, but I feel like we should be giving more attention to Eladamri's Call. The fact that it can be cast when you don't have a lot of mana, unlike pact or chord, gives it flexibility that our other tutors lack:
- Helps if the hand has top end but not enough ramp by opening up lines like T1 Forest > Sprawl, T2 Land > Call and play elf, T3 Land > 6 mana.
- You can cast it using leftover mana from whatever your play was to set up next turn's threat.
- If it gets countered you didn't spend your whole turn and tap your team casting it.
- It can also find nongreen creatures like Walking Ballista or an eldrazi.
It's also an instant for whatever that's worth. Regardless, I think you make some compelling points. It's a card I think I glossed over, and I should have given it some more thought.
At the moment, I think my biggest fear with Eladamri's Call is that spending 2 additional mana is too disruptive. If I'm curving out into some expensive spell, Eladamri's Call limits what I can cast in the same turn, and I'm not sure the increased flexibility is worth very much in a deck that doesn't care about finding any one specific creature and creating redundant draws of it. Had Wild Growth been printed, I'm sure Eladamri's Call would have been even better than it is now since Arbor Elf would have skyrocketed in value. But to make one concession, I do think Eladamri's Call is a better choice than Finale of Devastation. The white cost may cause some complications, but the instances where spending 2 leftover mana to find a creature to play next turn greatly outweighs the instances where Finale of Devastation gets cast for X equals 10.
3) Has anyone looked into Winds of Abandon? If your deck can support WW, a spot removal/one-sided sweeper split card that also randomly hates on all this graveyard nonsense sounds good to me.
I don't see the appeal to this card. It's not that it's bad or anything. It's just... why would I want it?
4) Collector Ouphe. Stony Silence on a green stick? Sign me up.
I'm not sure what to think of Collector Ouphe yet. I'm going to give it a try since I can tutor for it with Woodland Bellower, but the Ouphe being a creature makes it a lot more vulnerable than Stony Silence. For that reason, maybe Stony Silence is still a better sideboard card. Or maybe both cards aren't as important with Karn at our disposal.
Obviously, this isn't a perfect analogy. (I don't get the mana immediately. I have to tap Tribe to get the mana. Etc. etc.) Still, you get the idea. When I frame it this way, doesn't Llanowar Tribe sound a million times better than Wistful Selkie?
Is it even worth running Ruric Thar in the sideboard if I don't have fetch/shock lands, so just relying on Birds and Utopia Sprawl for red mana?
I'm not even sure Ruric Thar is worth running in the first place. If you do want to play with him though, a single Stomping Ground would give you so much more mileage. Even without fetches, your three Oath of Nissa and four Primeval Titan could find it. Hell, you run so many Forest already, you could even get away with playing one Cinder Glade as a serious budget option.
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I do play Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in sideboard, and usually he's good. Often my opponents have to 6 or 12 themselves to get rid of him if he resolves.
That being said, sometimes he's just too slow, especially against Phoenix decks. I resolved Ruric last night against mono-red phoenix, but I was already so far behind she just untapped, said "Six myself to deal you 3, and swing for 6 flying". He's much better against control, but harder to push thru counter-magic. For the fast spell-heavy decks, I think Trinisphere is a better option.
So, FNM didn't fire at my LGS yesterday because all the Modern players in my area mutinied, and they neglected to give me the memo. Fortunately, another poor sod didn't get the memo either, and I was able to play a few games against him using my new cards. Here's what I learned:
1.) Ramping has never been easier. I found myself consistently casting 6-drops turn 3, and I found my opponent frequently had to disrupt me if they didn't want to get completely buried on mana.
2.) 7 fetchlands aren't enough to support Vraska. At the moment, I only own 3 Windswept Heath and 4 Wooded Foothills, so I wasn't able to play as many as I would have liked. Yes, Birds of Paradise helps cast Vraska and sometimes so does Utopia Sprawl, but Llanowar Tribe makes it so that I frequently need to rely on having exactly Overgrown Tomb if I want to cast Vraska turn 3. And 7 fetchlands weren't enough to ensure I could do that most of the time. Playing too many basics definitely takes its toll.
4.)Woodland Bellower was just okay. I played him nearly every game, and while he was always somewhat helpful, he could only do so much to help me stabilize against an overwhelming board presence. This reminded me just how important I found the MadcapEmperion package to be. I'm going to keep playing with Woodland Bellower to see what happens as it may have just been a bad matchup for the card. Nevertheless, his initial debut didn't impress me.
5.)Tooth and Nail is still crazy. Being able to get to 6 easy also means that I naturally have more mana than I might otherwise have at other stages of the game. I found myself casting Tooth and Nail earlier and with fewer cards, and it was also just as effective as it's always been. I absolutely still want to play Tooth and Nail as the top end of my curve.
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So, FNM didn't fire at my LGS yesterday because all the Modern players in my area mutinied, and they neglected to give me the memo. Fortunately, another poor sod didn't get the memo either, and I was able to play a few games against him using my new cards. Here's what I learned:
1.) Ramping has never been easier. I found myself consistently casting 6-drops turn 3, and I found my opponent frequently had to disrupt me if they didn't want to get completely buried on mana.
2.) 7 fetchlands aren't enough to support Vraska. At the moment, I only own 3 Windswept Heath and 4 Wooded Foothills, so I wasn't able to play as many as I would have liked. Yes, Birds of Paradise helps cast Vraska and sometimes so does Utopia Sprawl, but Llanowar Tribe makes it so that I frequently need to rely on having exactly Overgrown Tomb if I want to cast Vraska turn 3. And 7 fetchlands weren't enough to ensure I could do that most of the time. Playing too many basics definitely takes its toll.
This was exactly what I found playing the last two weekends (approximately 20 matches:
1. Ramping is incredibly consistent now. Llanowar Tribe really does more for the deck than I initially expected. Granted, I’ve changed the deck to fit Tribe better (I.e. it doesn’t really “slot” into the Pact decks, etc.)...but it puts us on par (in some cases over the top of) Tron.
2. I’m up to 2 copies of Karn Liberated. I have multiple lines to 7-mana by turn 3; and essentially hitting either Karn by turn 3 wins most games.
I put a 2-of Primeval Titan in as I wanted to get one or more 4+power creature in to draw off Kiora. Obviously, Genesis Hydra does this to (and is good against control) so it’s possible I should just run 2x Hydra or 2x Titan (time will tell)..it’s possible there is another creature I’m not thinking of...but I like that Prime-time gets both Horizon lands and Blast Zone.
I could see a deck just playing a set of Prime-times given it draws a card off Kiora on top of its already insane value...and we have walkers that can untap the lands it brings into play...just a LOT of synergy with Kiora in particular.
2. I removed Pithing Needle from the board; but depending on the meta, I may want it or Defense Grid...that will just change with the meta.
3. May need a little bit of help against Control. Will have to test more. Will need to test it extensively to make sure we don’t need some sideboard dedicated to UW Control.
________
For me, Devotion has moved into distinct archetypes...there is the Pact/Hoof lists and the “pure ramp” lists (like T&N, Wave, etc.). Llanowar Tribe has allowed for the pure ramp losta to play far more consistently.
Granted, there are some exceptions. There are two different six card lines that each get to 7 turn 3 due to the fact that Utopia Sprawl doesn't cost any mana to develop turn 2. There's also an extremely unusual line in Land, Birds of Paradise —> Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Overgrowth. That one gets to 8, but it isn't redundant with any of the 7 mana lines either, so I figured it was worth mentioning anyway. Having said all that, aside from these exceptions, if I want to make 7 mana by turn 3 then I'm going to need a hand containing cards from one of the three bullet points above.
Given a 60 card deck containing 21 lands and 4 copies of each of the mentioned cards:
As you might be able to tell from my final two bullets, I've sort of reached my limit in terms of what I know how to calculate via multivariate hypergeometric distribution. I wish I knew how to find the chance of drawing a hand containing exactly some number of one kind of card but which also contains at least some number of another kind of card. Alas, that is beyond my current statistical ability. As it stands, these numbers, while accurate, can be a bit misleading. For example, the first two bullet points don't take into consideration that the extra cards in their hands might overlap with other lines that get to 7 mana by turn 3. As such, I can't tell what the chance of drawing a hand that gets to exactly 7 is. Nevertheless, I hope that what little data I am able to provide still ends up being useful for whoever happens upon it.
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I’m not great with that stuff; but I don’t think that includes the lines taking Kiora, Nykthos, or Garruk into account.
P.S. I had forgot to change the list. I’ve been trying 4x Bird and 2x Oath to try out the full set. I don’t know if I’ll go back once London Mulligan is in effect...but with so many three drops (and a lot of Walls + dork turn 2’s) it is super important to have a dork on turn 1 (and I essentially never want Oath on turn 1 now)...the deck is just more of a pure ramp deck now. Has been great thus far.
So...Wakeroot Elemental is in an infinite combo wih any Nykthos tapping for X=8 or more...If the translation is correct, it untaps ANY land and turns it into a creature with haste...that means you can keep untapping and tapping a Nykthos over and over again.
Granted, it takes him, a Nykthos, and 6 other green symbols...but creatures and lands are relative easy to tutor/dig for...and it can be done at instant speed, even if Wakeroot just entered the battlefield. Could make for some very interesting brews. Could also just be a random 1-of to have an “oops I win” ability (and sink for late games when you have a ton of mana”.
I’m going to add one to my current deck just in place of one Primeeval Titan (since it is built to take advantage of infinite mana in some respects) and I’ll let you know how often it comes up. It would have to be reasonably possible to go off to make it worth not playing another 6-drop:
I’m not great with that stuff; but I don’t think that includes the lines taking Kiora, Nykthos, or Garruk into account.
Correct. My last post only mapped out the lines involving Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth, and Llanowar Tribe that get to exactly 7 mana using 6 or fewer cards. I chose to map out lines with those cards specifically because those are the cards that seem the most crucial to play four copies of if I want to make as much mana as possible as quickly as possible. I may humor you and map out the other cards you mentioned later.
So...Wakeroot Elemental is in an infinite combo wih any Nykthos tapping for X=8 or more...If the translation is correct, it untaps ANY land and turns it into a creature with haste...that means you can keep untapping and tapping a Nykthos over and over again.
Granted, it takes him, a Nykthos, and six other green symbols...but creatures and lands are relative easy to tutor/dig for...and it can be done at instant speed, even if Wakeroot just entered the battlefield. Could make for some very interesting brews. Could also just be a random 1-of to have an “oops I win” ability (and sink for late games when you have a ton of mana”.
I’m going to add one to my current deck just in place of one Primeeval Titan (since it is built to take advantage of infinite mana in some respects) and I’ll let you know how often it comes up.
You're more generous than I am. To me, Wakeroot Elemental looks completely unplayable. And I'm not talking just about Modern. Wakeroot Elemental looks unplayable in every constructed format as well as probably Limited. It's just that terrible.
The crux of the issue is that Wakeroot Elemental is a Craw Wurm. It does nothing the turn it comes into play. It has no combat abilities. It isn't resilient. It is merely a 6 mana 5/5. That's it. In that respect, Wakeroot Elemental is significantly worse than Colossal Dreadmaw. Its only saving grace is its activated ability which isn't even especially useful. If what I want is a pair of big guys, then I ought to play Kalonian Twingrove instead. At least with the Twingrove I don't have to invest another 5 before getting anything valuable. Not to mention I don't lose absolutely everything in the event it's destroyed.
And if I want to make infinite mana with Wakeroot Elemental and Nykthos, that's a tall order too. Not only do I need to have both those cards in tandem, but I also need eight devotion, which is no easy feet, and my vanilla 5/5 needs to make it all the way till my next turn since casting Wakeroot Elemental, activating its ability, and using Nykthosrequires 13 mana total, and there's no way I'm ever going to have that much all in one turn.
And if I want to make infinite mana with Wakeroot Elemental and Nykthos, that's a tall order too. Not only do I need to have both those cards in tandem, but I also need eight devotion, which is no easy feet, and my vanilla 5/5 needs to make it all the way till my next turn since casting Wakeroot Elemental, activating its ability, and using Nykthos requires 13 mana total, and there's no way I'm ever going to have that much all in one turn.
It seems like you would only need 9 mana and 8 devotion to go infinite. Pay 4GG to cast Wakeroot and then an additional 2 to activate Nykthos. If you have 8 devotion at that point (and since Wakeroot counts as 2, only six other sources), use 5 to activate Wakeroot, 2 to activate the untapped Nykthos, and 1 floats. Rinse repeat. It does seem like a tough ask, but maybe easier than you initially laid out? Or I could be getting it wrong as well.
It seems like you would only need 9 mana and 8 devotion to go infinite. Pay 4GG to cast Wakeroot and then an additional 2 to activate Nykthos. If you have 8 devotion at that point (and since Wakeroot counts as 2, only six other sources), use 5 to activate Wakeroot, 2 to activate the untapped Nykthos, and 1 floats. Rinse repeat. It does seem like a tough ask, but maybe easier than you initially laid out? Or I could be getting it wrong as well.
No, you've got it right. For whatever reason, I neglected to think of that sequence Thank you for pointing that out.
Regardless, my point still stands. Wakeroot Elemental is a terrible card without Nykthos, and even when I do have Nykthos I still need six more devotion and eight more mana. That's asking way too much from a card that isn't very useful outside of being a combo piece.
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to kill gaddock teeg, (which typically the green white decks that he's played in come with small creatures to begin with) just about any of our creatures paired with Domri Rade is good creature removal.
all and all eternal witness with black splash for assassin's trophy pretty good for the deck these days.
2 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Champion of Wits
1 Thragtusk
4 Primeval Titan
1 Platinum Angel
4 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Primal Surge
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Overgrowth
1 Asceticism
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Breeding Pool
1 Field of Ruin
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner is ramp and the necessary draw effect in one card.
Nissa, Who Shakes the World basically takes you to 10 mana.
Springbloom Druid seems might be useful as far as land ramp is concerned.
Wall of Blossoms also got the green wall of walls. (haven't used this since legacy)
So far this is the version i'm piloting in testing, I'd like to know what you guys think, I don't have the strongest grasp yet on the new modern horizon meta.
4 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 wall of blossoms
1 Thragtusk
1 Platinum Angel
4 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 liliana vess
4 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
3 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
4 utopia sprawl
1 Asceticism
Yeah...I need to update the primer before they lock it for good. Need to add War, Llanowar Tribe, the Madcap deck, and a dozen other things I’ve made notes on. I will do so within the week.
You are right that black is the best splash for sideboard options right now. Between Leyline of the Void, Force of Despair, Trophy, Thoughtsieze, etc. it’s a great option when the format gets hyper linear/combo heavy.
I’m a big fan of Domri (both three drops). I think Domri, Anarch of Bolas is a great 3-drop. I think it pushes Gruul Devotion hard (as it already had some great pieces).
I would love some feedback from all of you expert green mages on how this looks. Specifically curious to know:
- Is the additional ramp from Llanowar Tribe worth the loss of card advantage from Wistful Selkie (since Tribe is moving into that slot)?
- Should run more Genesis Wave if that's the major payoff card?
- Is it even worth running Ruric Thar in the sideboard if I don't have fetch/shock lands, so just relying on Birds and Utopia Sprawl for red mana?
I appreciate the insights!Ramp
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Llanowar Tribe
Utility / Win-Cons
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Eternal Witness
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Primal Command
4 Primeval Titan
2 Genesis Wave
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Lands
17 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Sideboard
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea's Disciple
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
2 Pithing Needle
1 Acidic Slime
3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
The-powers-that-be actually found an 11th hour buyer, so now MTGS won't actually be shutting down. From the look of it though, virtually all the staff are still leaving for the new website they had in the works. I'll be joining them on that exodus.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
1) Card advantage is only good in longer games...Modern has become very fast lately so it's best to just go fast with it. Llanowar Tribe helps in this regard.
2) Genesis Wave is kind of eh in my opinion. ALthough with Tribe, it may be easier to obtain large amounts of mana. I already think your top end with Craterhoof and Primetime is good enough as a finisher...so perhaps Wave is just fine as a value 2-of.
3) Not a lot of decks like Storm for Ruric Thar to trounce lately...I don't think he's super necessary at the moment.
I'm definitely excited to see a new mythic green walker.
On the topic of Chandra, I can't help but roll my eyes. Chandra, Novice Pyromancer will be great in Limited but not anywhere else. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame looks like a steaming pile of garbage. Her 0 abilities are two of the most ineffectual things I've ever seen on a planeswalker to date, and her minus ability is like a slower, disruptable, more restrictive Pull from the Deep. She's not Tibalt levels of bad, but she's a real stinker.
Chandra, Awakened Inferno is the most interesting of the three versions, but she isn't without her fair share of problems either. Her plus ability, while really cool, is painfully slow, so slow in fact that it might not even matter in stalemates. Her having a +2 ability combined with her 6 starting loyalty makes her really difficult to kill, which is excellent, but that incredible amount of loyalty is wasted by not having any worthwhile minus abilities; they're just all so underwhelming. Yes, Firespout is fine. If I'm facing down a board that consists exactly of a bunch of relevant but tiny creatures, her -3 will shine. In too many cases it just won't matter though. And her -X is even worse. One damage for one loyalty is an abysmal rate; Chandra Nalaar taught us that centuries ago. Sure, Awakened Inferno is certainly better at gaining loyalty than Chandra Nalaar is, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't that valuable as a loyalty sink even if it can hit other planeswalkers. Now, if she could damage players directly, THAT would be amazing. But as she currently stands, this version of Chandra is super ignorable. Even if my opponent casts her during a stalemate where I have no way to deal with her, she's too slow to kill and often lacks ways to use her loyalty meaningfully.
Well, I'd be happy to learn what you think of him once you've gotten the chance to test him thoroughly. From my perspective, he looks pretty bad. His 4 starting loyalty makes him fairly vulnerable, and his minus ability only affecting green creatures means he seriously restricts what I can cheat into play off of him. Not to mention, its usefulness is reliant on me actually having something valuable to put into play, and that's something I won't always have even in the instances where doing so would otherwise be good. I suppose Garruk's most redeeming element is his plus ability. I could generate quite a lot of value with it, and if I hit something expensive, I might be able to play it for free next turn. Even so, I think there are better alternatives. If I want to cheat creatures into play, for the same amount of mana I'd be better off casting See the Unwritten or Summoning Trap. Those cards dig deeper than one activation of Garruk, and they don't limit me to green creatures either.
Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, but I want to let you know that I sympathize with you. I lost a masterpiece Mana Crypt a few months ago, and while I thankfully got it back, the whole debacle was seriously depressing. I hope things ultimately work out for you in the end.
It's also an instant for whatever that's worth. Regardless, I think you make some compelling points. It's a card I think I glossed over, and I should have given it some more thought.
At the moment, I think my biggest fear with Eladamri's Call is that spending 2 additional mana is too disruptive. If I'm curving out into some expensive spell, Eladamri's Call limits what I can cast in the same turn, and I'm not sure the increased flexibility is worth very much in a deck that doesn't care about finding any one specific creature and creating redundant draws of it. Had Wild Growth been printed, I'm sure Eladamri's Call would have been even better than it is now since Arbor Elf would have skyrocketed in value. But to make one concession, I do think Eladamri's Call is a better choice than Finale of Devastation. The white cost may cause some complications, but the instances where spending 2 leftover mana to find a creature to play next turn greatly outweighs the instances where Finale of Devastation gets cast for X equals 10.
I don't see the appeal to this card. It's not that it's bad or anything. It's just... why would I want it?
I'm not sure what to think of Collector Ouphe yet. I'm going to give it a try since I can tutor for it with Woodland Bellower, but the Ouphe being a creature makes it a lot more vulnerable than Stony Silence. For that reason, maybe Stony Silence is still a better sideboard card. Or maybe both cards aren't as important with Karn at our disposal.
I find it helpful to frame Llanowar Tribe this way:
Say I play Wistful Selkie. When I do, I get a 2/2, and I draw a card. Now say I play Llanowar Tribe. When I do, I get a 3/3, and I also draw a card. The card Llanowar Tribe draws me isn't a random card like the card Wistful Selkie draws me though. Instead, the card Llanowar Tribe draws me is always a Gilded Lotus. And not only does Llanowar Tribe always draw me a Gilded Lotus, but it also casts that Gilded Lotus for free.
Obviously, this isn't a perfect analogy. (I don't get the mana immediately. I have to tap Tribe to get the mana. Etc. etc.) Still, you get the idea. When I frame it this way, doesn't Llanowar Tribe sound a million times better than Wistful Selkie?
I'm not even sure Ruric Thar is worth running in the first place. If you do want to play with him though, a single Stomping Ground would give you so much more mileage. Even without fetches, your three Oath of Nissa and four Primeval Titan could find it. Hell, you run so many Forest already, you could even get away with playing one Cinder Glade as a serious budget option.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
That being said, sometimes he's just too slow, especially against Phoenix decks. I resolved Ruric last night against mono-red phoenix, but I was already so far behind she just untapped, said "Six myself to deal you 3, and swing for 6 flying". He's much better against control, but harder to push thru counter-magic. For the fast spell-heavy decks, I think Trinisphere is a better option.
1.) Ramping has never been easier. I found myself consistently casting 6-drops turn 3, and I found my opponent frequently had to disrupt me if they didn't want to get completely buried on mana.
2.) 7 fetchlands aren't enough to support Vraska. At the moment, I only own 3 Windswept Heath and 4 Wooded Foothills, so I wasn't able to play as many as I would have liked. Yes, Birds of Paradise helps cast Vraska and sometimes so does Utopia Sprawl, but Llanowar Tribe makes it so that I frequently need to rely on having exactly Overgrown Tomb if I want to cast Vraska turn 3. And 7 fetchlands weren't enough to ensure I could do that most of the time. Playing too many basics definitely takes its toll.
3.) I need more and/or different cards to support Karn. Right now, I have Tormod's Crypt, Spellskite, Vivien's Arkbow, Mycosynth Lattice in my sideboard. I found myself really wanting Ensnaring Bridge. I'd also like to give Trinisphere a try.
4.) Woodland Bellower was just okay. I played him nearly every game, and while he was always somewhat helpful, he could only do so much to help me stabilize against an overwhelming board presence. This reminded me just how important I found the Madcap Emperion package to be. I'm going to keep playing with Woodland Bellower to see what happens as it may have just been a bad matchup for the card. Nevertheless, his initial debut didn't impress me.
5.) Tooth and Nail is still crazy. Being able to get to 6 easy also means that I naturally have more mana than I might otherwise have at other stages of the game. I found myself casting Tooth and Nail earlier and with fewer cards, and it was also just as effective as it's always been. I absolutely still want to play Tooth and Nail as the top end of my curve.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I've used it a few time in the past for getting my traverse the ulvenwald delirium.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
This was exactly what I found playing the last two weekends (approximately 20 matches:
1. Ramping is incredibly consistent now. Llanowar Tribe really does more for the deck than I initially expected. Granted, I’ve changed the deck to fit Tribe better (I.e. it doesn’t really “slot” into the Pact decks, etc.)...but it puts us on par (in some cases over the top of) Tron.
2. I’m up to 2 copies of Karn Liberated. I have multiple lines to 7-mana by turn 3; and essentially hitting either Karn by turn 3 wins most games.
Here is the current list:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Wall of Blossoms
4x Llanowar Tribe
2x Primeval Titan
Spells (10)
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Oath of Nissa
1x Cloudstone Curio
3x Genesis Wave
4x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Karn, the Great Creator
2x Karn Liberated
Land (21)
6x Green Fetch
7x Forest
1x Breeding Pool
2x Waterlogged Grove
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Blast Zone
2x Force of Vigor
2x Primal Command
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Spellskite
1x Trinisphere
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Walking Ballista
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dampening Sphere
Current thoughts:
I put a 2-of Primeval Titan in as I wanted to get one or more 4+power creature in to draw off Kiora. Obviously, Genesis Hydra does this to (and is good against control) so it’s possible I should just run 2x Hydra or 2x Titan (time will tell)..it’s possible there is another creature I’m not thinking of...but I like that Prime-time gets both Horizon lands and Blast Zone.
I could see a deck just playing a set of Prime-times given it draws a card off Kiora on top of its already insane value...and we have walkers that can untap the lands it brings into play...just a LOT of synergy with Kiora in particular.
2. I removed Pithing Needle from the board; but depending on the meta, I may want it or Defense Grid...that will just change with the meta.
3. May need a little bit of help against Control. Will have to test more. Will need to test it extensively to make sure we don’t need some sideboard dedicated to UW Control.
________
For me, Devotion has moved into distinct archetypes...there is the Pact/Hoof lists and the “pure ramp” lists (like T&N, Wave, etc.). Llanowar Tribe has allowed for the pure ramp losta to play far more consistently.
Leading Arbor Elf:
7 mana, 4 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Overgrowth
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Utopia Sprawl, Utopia Sprawl
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Utopia Sprawl, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Llanowar Tribe —> Land
Leading Birds of Paradise:
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Llanowar Tribe —> Land
7 mana, 6 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth —> Land
Leading Utopia Sprawl:
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Arbor Elf, Arbor Elf
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Arbor Elf, Arbor Elf —> Land
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
7 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Llanowar Tribe —> Land
7 mana, 6 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth —> Land
So, the takeaway here is that, if I want to get 7 mana by turn 3, I'll need to have:
- 3 lands, a 1-drop, and Llanowar Tribe
- 2 lands, Arbor Elf, and Overgrowth
- 2 lands, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and one more copy of either Arbor Elf or Utopia Sprawl
Granted, there are some exceptions. There are two different six card lines that each get to 7 turn 3 due to the fact that Utopia Sprawl doesn't cost any mana to develop turn 2. There's also an extremely unusual line in Land, Birds of Paradise —> Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Overgrowth. That one gets to 8, but it isn't redundant with any of the 7 mana lines either, so I figured it was worth mentioning anyway. Having said all that, aside from these exceptions, if I want to make 7 mana by turn 3 then I'm going to need a hand containing cards from one of the three bullet points above.Given a 60 card deck containing 21 lands and 4 copies of each of the mentioned cards:
- What is the chance my opening hand will contain at least three lands, at least one copy of either Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, or Utopia Sprawl, and at least one copy of Llanowar Tribe? 9.8%
- What is the chance my opening hand will contain at least two lands, at least one copy of Arbor Elf, and at least one copy of Overgrowth? 9.3%
- What is the chance my opening hand will contain exactly two lands, exactly two Arbor Elf, exactly one Utopia Sprawl, and exactly two other cards that are not lands, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Llanowar Tribe, or Overgrowth? 0.3%
- What is the chance my opening hand will contain exactly two lands, exactly one Arbor Elf, exactly two Utopia Sprawl, and exactly two other cards that are not lands, Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Llanowar Tribe, or Overgrowth? 0.3%
As you might be able to tell from my final two bullets, I've sort of reached my limit in terms of what I know how to calculate via multivariate hypergeometric distribution. I wish I knew how to find the chance of drawing a hand containing exactly some number of one kind of card but which also contains at least some number of another kind of card. Alas, that is beyond my current statistical ability. As it stands, these numbers, while accurate, can be a bit misleading. For example, the first two bullet points don't take into consideration that the extra cards in their hands might overlap with other lines that get to 7 mana by turn 3. As such, I can't tell what the chance of drawing a hand that gets to exactly 7 is. Nevertheless, I hope that what little data I am able to provide still ends up being useful for whoever happens upon it.Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I’m not great with that stuff; but I don’t think that includes the lines taking Kiora, Nykthos, or Garruk into account.
P.S. I had forgot to change the list. I’ve been trying 4x Bird and 2x Oath to try out the full set. I don’t know if I’ll go back once London Mulligan is in effect...but with so many three drops (and a lot of Walls + dork turn 2’s) it is super important to have a dork on turn 1 (and I essentially never want Oath on turn 1 now)...the deck is just more of a pure ramp deck now. Has been great thus far.
Granted, it takes him, a Nykthos, and 6 other green symbols...but creatures and lands are relative easy to tutor/dig for...and it can be done at instant speed, even if Wakeroot just entered the battlefield. Could make for some very interesting brews. Could also just be a random 1-of to have an “oops I win” ability (and sink for late games when you have a ton of mana”.
I’m going to add one to my current deck just in place of one Primeeval Titan (since it is built to take advantage of infinite mana in some respects) and I’ll let you know how often it comes up. It would have to be reasonably possible to go off to make it worth not playing another 6-drop:
You're more generous than I am. To me, Wakeroot Elemental looks completely unplayable. And I'm not talking just about Modern. Wakeroot Elemental looks unplayable in every constructed format as well as probably Limited. It's just that terrible.
The crux of the issue is that Wakeroot Elemental is a Craw Wurm. It does nothing the turn it comes into play. It has no combat abilities. It isn't resilient. It is merely a 6 mana 5/5. That's it. In that respect, Wakeroot Elemental is significantly worse than Colossal Dreadmaw. Its only saving grace is its activated ability which isn't even especially useful. If what I want is a pair of big guys, then I ought to play Kalonian Twingrove instead. At least with the Twingrove I don't have to invest another 5 before getting anything valuable. Not to mention I don't lose absolutely everything in the event it's destroyed.
And if I want to make infinite mana with Wakeroot Elemental and Nykthos, that's a tall order too. Not only do I need to have both those cards in tandem, but I also need eight devotion, which is no easy feet, and my vanilla 5/5 needs to make it all the way till my next turn since casting Wakeroot Elemental, activating its ability, and using Nykthos
requires 13 mana total, and there's no way I'm ever going to have that much all in one turn.EDIT: See posts below.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
It seems like you would only need 9 mana and 8 devotion to go infinite. Pay 4GG to cast Wakeroot and then an additional 2 to activate Nykthos. If you have 8 devotion at that point (and since Wakeroot counts as 2, only six other sources), use 5 to activate Wakeroot, 2 to activate the untapped Nykthos, and 1 floats. Rinse repeat. It does seem like a tough ask, but maybe easier than you initially laid out? Or I could be getting it wrong as well.
Regardless, my point still stands. Wakeroot Elemental is a terrible card without Nykthos, and even when I do have Nykthos I still need six more devotion and eight more mana. That's asking way too much from a card that isn't very useful outside of being a combo piece.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!