Nissa is a very relevant card with an x natters theme.
It looks rather dubious to me. The more X spells you play to work with Unbound Flourishing, the more often you'll whiff with Nissa's 0 ability. Sure, it gets a lot easier to reach her -6, but aside from that Nissa has anti-synergy with X costing cards more than anything.
The Karn deck is doing great! It really is a crazy good card. I will post a bunch of results this weekend; but it seems like one of the best things you can do in a big-mana deck in Modern right now.
I don't doubt this at all. I simply wonder how many copies I should play. I'm inclined towards two since Karn seems especially bad in multiples, but maybe Karn is so good that I actually want even more. I don't know yet. I probably ought to buy a couple right now. Thankfully, I already own a copy of Lattice, being a Commander player and all. That card has gotten expensive.
I was only on 2-birds. I will probably go up to three given your data (and probably begrudgingly four )...I do think we are one of the decks that actually benefits from the London Mulligan rule more than most (give the importance of a 1-drop on turn one and curving right). It is gonna take some time for me to get to 4x bird I don't doubt your data at all. My gut keeps telling me I would top-deck too many of them late (I likely pay more attention to this as it is usually a close game when you remember this happening).
Well, you're not wrong. If I play more 1-drops, I'm going to draw more 1-drops. That's just sort of inevitable. If anything, the fact I can draw a bunch of Birds in the late game demonstrates just how important it is that I choose the right payoff cards. If I choose poor payoff cards and my opponent answers them without them putting me in a winning position, it's entirely possible I just draw dead the rest of the game. If I don't play lots of 1-drops though, I'll be way less likely to ever cast my payoff cards in the first place. It's sort of a necessary trade off.
Here's a thought: maybe Primal Command isn't important if I'm already playing Woodland Bellower. The two cards clearly aren't the same, but they're similarly costed, and nearly all the modes on Primal Command can be imitated by Woodland Bellower. If I want to find a creature, Woodland Bellower already does that (and casts it for free!) provided the card costs 3 or less. Hell, Arbor Elf was one of the cards I found most with Primal Command anyway. And if what I want is life, there's Knight of Autumn. Naturalize? Also, Knight of Autumn. That's especially nice considering Primal Command couldn't permanently address noncreature permanents without also choosing the shuffle graveyard mode. And speaking of graveyards, there's both Loaming Shaman and Scavenging Ooze to deal with those. About the only thing I lose on Primal Command is the ability to Time Walk opponents by casting half a Plow Under. But considering that typically wasn't useful for me beyond being a stall tactic since I frequently wouldn't have a board state to capitalize off the momentum, it isn't something I'd be too sad to see myself lose.
Is Oath of Nissa falling out of favor? I've liked having the extra card filter to smooth out draws that might've otherwise been too land-light or lacking a creature. I'll have to try changing those 4 slots to something else and see how my consistency changes.
Here are my thoughts on Oath of Nissa. It's exactly the kind of card I would want to play if I thought I could ever afford to cast it.
On turn 1, I want to cast a 1-drop and absolutely nothing else. That means I'm going to play several 1-drops to ensure I always have one in my opener. Sure, if I had Oath of Nissa in my hand and I didn't have a 1-drop, then I would happily cast Oath of Nissa instead. That isn't a situation I ever want to be in though, hence the reason for playing so many 1-drops. Playing a 1-drop turn 1 is always more important than playing Oath of Nissa.
On turn 2, because I'm casting a 1-drop turn 1, I want to cast a 3-drop, and preferably either Overgrowth or Llanowar Tribe. Granted, I won't always have one of those, and even when I do there's a chance my opponent bolts my bird, so sometimes I'll have 2 or 3 mana and no way to spend it. In those instances, I would gladly cast Oath of Nissa since I gained a turn I wouldn't have otherwise had. It is, however, also possible that I just have two more 1-drops that I can play to fill the void of the first one, so Oath of Nissa won't always be a feasible line even when I can't play a 3-drop.
On turn 3, provided everything went according to plan, I want to cast my payoff card. That will probably use most if not all of my mana. Again, things won't always go so smoothly, so there's room for deviation, but depending upon how much mana I have, Oath of Nissa would often be a good play here. If I don't have a payoff card or enough mana to cast said payoff card, Oath of Nissa can find either, and sometimes I'll even be able to play what it finds the same turn.
So, when's the earliest I'll realistically cast Oath of Nissa? Turn 2? Maybe turn 3? A lot of the utility in Oath of Nissa comes from the fact that it can be played on turn 1 when I wouldn't otherwise have anything useful to do. But in this deck, I do always have something useful to do on turn 1. And once I have lots of mana, there are other cards like Harmonize and Hydroid Krasis that compete with Oath of Nissa's effect, so I'm not sure where it fits. It's possible that a cantrip effect like Oath of Nissa is still what I want despite being awkward the first couple of turns. I'm just not completely sure though.
Finale of devastation as a finisher. X=10 for two hornet queen and I'm swinging for over a hundred with those 12 creatures alone. Plus it grabs dudes from the graveyard should anyone of significance make it there. Seems decent.
The eldrazi and such are just because goldfishing got boring I guess. Haha. I like to experiment.
Finale of devastation as a finisher. X=10 for two hornet queen and I'm swinging for over a hundred with those 12 creatures alone. Plus it grabs dudes from the graveyard should anyone of significance make it there. Seems decent.
The eldrazi and such are just because goldfishing got boring I guess. Haha. I like to experiment.
Well, I mean, I guess that sort of answers your own question then. If what you want is to do is experiment, just experiment. You don't need to justify anything if all you care about is finding out what it's like to play different cards.
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That’s a great point on Oath of Nissa. I’m currently down to 3; but could see myself playing only 2 if I ended up playing a full set of birds.
I tend to play decks that want them mostly because of the lines of play for turn 2. I think Arrogant thinks very similar in terms of lines of play.
I have a lot of lines that involve playing 2-drops and 1-drops. A few examples (just assuming I played a Dork on turn 1):
- play Wall of Blossoms and another dork OR Oath of Nissa
- Play Kiora, untap...play Oath of dork (or Wall of Blossoms if Land untapped had Utopia Sprawl on it).
- play dork, Oath, dork
I am currently playing a few tribes as well; but you get the picture.
In a deck focused heavily one turn 1 dork, turn 2 Tribe/Overgrowth you don’t need the cantrips as much.
I don’t think Oath is a necessary card; but it is a very good one. Obviously nearly all Walker decks want them....but even using it as a pseudo-Ponder is rarely a bad thing. But it is one mana and one slot you could spend on something else.
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I actually prefer Woodland Bellower to Primal Command...so I may try this out. I know it can’t replicate the “time walk” land drop loop; but it is nice to build a board up while being a little interactive.
Finale of devastation as a finisher. X=10 for two hornet queen and I'm swinging for over a hundred with those 12 creatures alone. Plus it grabs dudes from the graveyard should anyone of significance make it there. Seems decent.
The eldrazi and such are just because goldfishing got boring I guess. Haha. I like to experiment.
Unfortunately I think only the main Hornet gets the buff/haste (if I remember correctly). It’s still amazing at X=10+ (traditionally game ending). I could be wrong on this; but I thought that A judge outlined this to me.
Having said that, Finale is a great option for many Devotion decks. Gives you the ability to tutor for bullets while ALSO being game ending once you hit 12 mana 90% of the time. I think you could brew very successfully around Finale. I for one would love to see it!
I say try out everything you think of. I can’t count the times I’ve had an idea and didn’t realize (a) how good it was and/or interactions I hadn’t even thought of and//or (b) how bad it was or how a deck needed to change to support it. Theory crafting is super important; bout nothing can replicate playing a decklist against a “gauntlet” of the top decks in Modern (and a few tier 2 ones to be safe ).
I do normally advise people to play a full 75 when testing (or at minimum knowing how the board could resolve issues). Your game one deck doesn’t need to beat everything (often doing so muddies the deck)...but having a board to shore up weaknesses is a must. If I know my deck folds to infect...that’s fine as long as I play Melina, Spellskite, Force of Vigor, Etc. (There are many ways to deal with it depending on your main) In the board.
This is in fact true. The tokens get the shaft, but I grabbed a Zetalpa, primal dawn with the finales. A 14/18 flying double striking indestructible vigilant trampling beast of eff you, coming in HOT.
This is in fact true. The tokens get the shaft, but I grabbed a Zetalpa, primal dawn with the finales. A 14/18 flying double striking indestructible vigilant trampling beast of eff you, coming in HOT.
That just seems like pure fun Can you imagine what your opponent was thinking? In a deck like that (you could even play the Devoted Druid combo just for the heck of it) it is a great one-of to just finish the game...a lot of times though; just having a few dorks (Arbor Elf, Bird, even Llanowar Tribe) and fetching something is more than enough to deal 30+ damage. Its a really cool card.
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So I have actually been kinda surprised...I wasn't certain Llanowar Tribe was going to be good in my more Walker-centric Devotion deck. It is. It is very near busted. It seems like a must kill 3-drop or the opponent just loses (often the next turn). I knew the card was bonkers in the creature-heavy decks; but wasn't entirely sold on my deck (I just have reservations about 3-drops that I think comes from a VERY distant past when fair decks actually mattered but I was wrong. It seems bonkers even in my deck. Makes me excited for the true viability of Devotion.
Having said this, I actually think it may not be great in the Pact lists necessarily. It feels like more of a "combo" style card. Playing ramp at 3-CMC is risky and can lead to potential blow outs if not mitigated well. Becoming too focused on a game plan (especially in ramp) can be a really poor plan. This is because we "stack" the "one good discard spell" or "one good counter" issue with the "draw the wrong half of the deck" issue ramp decks have.
Another obstacle we have to think about is the new speed of what will be the meta for the next 6 months. Even with Tribe we are still slower than the fastest decks (and thanks to Horizons/London Mulligan rule we now have at least two more turn 2-3 decks in Hoggak/Vengevine and Neoform decks). I am winning more on turn 3 than I ever have; but still not as consistently as the fastest combo decks do. Karn has helped (as on the play a turn 2-3 Karn can grab a good hate piece); but sideboards are where we will make most of these decisions. Maybe a full playset of Leylines?
I found some of these last few comments confusing, so just to make sure everyone is on the same page, Hornet Queendoes not create tokens until after Finale of Devastation has finished resolving. This is because, whenever you start resolving a spell or ability, you do everything that spell or ability tells you to do from top to bottom until you finish resolving the entire thing. If that spell or ability would put another spell or ability onto the stack while it's resolving, you put the new spell or ability onto the stack, but you do not begin doing the new spell or ability until after the original has completely finished resolving. So, if I cast Finale of Devastation for X equals 10 and put Hornet Queen onto the battlefield, Hornet Queen's triggered ability would be put onto the stack immediately once it comes into play, but that triggered ability won't actually occur until after Finale of Devastation gives my team +10/+10.
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- The witness is not the most powerful thing in the main; but it can loop Waves, is great once Command is sideboarded in, etc.
- Still working on the perfect board; but feel pretty good about it.
- I don't know if Genesis Hydra is necessary; but I feel like we need more against control (I haven't found it to be a difficult match up yet; but their elists are getting good...and if they can stop me early before we overwhelm them I will need to devote more to the match up)
- I may only need three waves...could diversify the big cards.
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I haven't had enough time to delve into my other list...but the focus has been very heavy on trying to make Domri, Anarch of Bolas and Woodland Bellower a thing...I don't know if they work well together; but I love both of them and really want them to I like the Woodland Bellower can work as a pseudo interactive card (by getting things like Reclamation Sage, Loaming Shman, etc.) so it would work somewhat similarly to Karn (in that it tutors for specific hate)...the downside being that it costs 6 mana; with the upside being that it gets the tutored card free of charge and it adds to devotion...It feels like the card is breakable. With the Core I use, Tribe, and Bellower (and currently with Domri) there really are only a few flex spots...its really just finding the best way to win the game with this package.
So I have actually been kinda surprised...I wasn't certain Llanowar Tribe was going to be good in my more Walker-centric Devotion deck. It is. It is very near busted. It seems like a must kill 3-drop or the opponent just loses (often the next turn). I knew the card was bonkers in the creature-heavy decks; but wasn't entirely sold on my deck (I just have reservations about 3-drops that I think comes from a VERY distant past when fair decks actually mattered but I was wrong. It seems bonkers even in my deck. Makes me excited for the true viability of Devotion.
I think sometimes people fail to remember that Llanowar Tribe is just a mana source. That's it. I'm not playing Llanowar Tribe because it's a 3/3, and I'm not playing Llanowar Tribe because it adds three devotion. I'm only playing Llanowar Tribe because it's great at making mana.
With the exception of decks like Manaless Dredge, literally every deck needs mana. It's the reason every deck plays lands; it's so they can cast their spells. Llanowar Tribe isn't a free mana source like lands are, but mana sources don't need to be free to be worth playing. They just need to be better at making mana than other cards. This is why ramp spells have always been attractive to me. Yes, making more mana sooner is a great quality to have, but ramp spells aren't awesome only because they put me further ahead on mana. They're awesome because they can make mana better than lands can. And if I have to make mana to cast the spells that I want, I may as well be good at it, right? It only makes sense.
Having said this, I actually think it may not be great in the Pact lists necessarily. It feels like more of a "combo" style card. Playing ramp at 3-CMC is risky and can lead to potential blow outs if not mitigated well. Becoming too focused on a game plan (especially in ramp) can be a really poor plan. This is because we "stack" the "one good discard spell" or "one good counter" issue with the "draw the wrong half of the deck" issue ramp decks have.
I can understand this sentiment. Some cards, despite being better than other cards of the same kind, won't fit equally well in every deck because some considerations must be made beyond whether one card is better than another. Mana curves are one example of this. If Card A costs 4 mana and Card B costs 3 mana but Card A is also ten times better than Card B, even though it might seem crazy to ever play Card B when I could play Card A, perhaps it's still possible that I already have so many other cards that cost 4 that what I realistically need is anything other than another 4-drop even if that means playing something objectively worse in a vacuum.
Another obstacle we have to think about is the new speed of what will be the meta for the next 6 months. Even with Tribe we are still slower than the fastest decks (and thanks to Horizons/London Mulligan rule we now have at least two more turn 2-3 decks in Hoggak/Vengevine and Neoform decks). I am winning more on turn 3 than I ever have; but still not as consistently as the fastest combo decks do. Karn has helped (as on the play a turn 2-3 Karn can grab a good hate piece); but sideboards are where we will make most of these decisions. Maybe a full playset of Leylines?
I'm not worried about faster decks for several reasons.
1.) Super fast decks tend to be extremely inconsistent. Sure, it feels bad when my opponent gets a lucky hand and kills me out of nowhere without me having any recourse. That doesn't mean they'll always be quick enough or consistent enough to warrant taking action against.
2.) Super fast decks tend to be hyperlinear. This makes them especially soft to sideboard cards. Decks like Dredge are powerful, but unless they draw some very specific cards, they often fold to a resolved Rest in Peace. Being prepared by having the right sideboard cards to combat these kinds of decks can go a long way towards not losing to them. As for what sideboard cards I should play specifically, I'm not sure. Leyline of Sanctity might be worth playing. I just don't have enough experience sideboarding to say much with confidence yet.
3.) Super fast decks that are somehow both consistent and resilient still run the risk of something getting banned. If any specific deck becomes too problematic, Wizards can always course correct and ban whatever card or cards that they deem are too much trouble.
4.) Perhaps the best reason why I'm not worried about faster decks is that I simply don't care. I want to play ramp. If I cared about losing, I could play "the best deck" instead. If I cared about losing in very specific ways, I could pack my deck full of interaction. I don't care about those things though. What I want to do is play ramp. That means I'm willing to accept the consequences of my decision. Every deck is going to have weaknesses, and one of ramp's weaknesses is that it tends to be linear; it has to play a lot of redundant cards to achieve its goals, and it often won't have space (or even the right colors necessary) to play more interactive cards. These are all things I'm okay with. If I wasn't, I ought to play something else.
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Zetalpa, Atarka and a couple Cultivator of blades to finish things off. This just seems so utterly bonkers, I've got to try to get at least one of the doublestrikers and a Cultivator out to swing fir the win with.
Looks pretty darn strong. A lot of proven powerful cards.
The only suggestions I would make:
1. Try Llanowar Tribe. Maybe in place of 1-2 Wistful Selkies and possibly one Witness and/or land.
2. Maybe cut a land (or two ). I should likely be playing 22; but 24 does seem a little high for me. This could open up at least one of the slots for Tribe as well.
That's really the only suggestions I would make; and only because I've had good recent experiences with llanowar tribe. If you get a chance to grind it; please let us know how it went!
I think you are right playing more lands than I have in the past though...I am considering adding a land. Don't know what I would cut (or if I would just run 61 cards) but generally pros say "take your deck...and add a land!" haha. Having said this, we can run pretty well on a lower land count. Madcap Devotion 5-0'd with only 20 lands. I'll have to look back as to how many lands the 5-0 decks ran to get a better picture.
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I think the thing I like most about Llanowar Tribe is that it feels like a card that is only for us What I mean is that while it doesn't require Devotion to be good (tapping for three mana is extremely powerful); with Devotion it is bonkers powerful. I like when we can differentiate ourselves from other decks (i.e. so we are not just Amulet, Tron, etc. from a different angle) and I feel like Tribe helps us do that.
Three Chandra’s in Core set 2020 were spoiled (uncommon, rare, and mythic). Two seem strong. Keeping my fingers crossed for three Vivien’s Chandra is the face of the set; so it’s very possible she is the only walker to get the “story progression” walkers. It would be really cool if they did it for all three though (and especially useful for us). **edit..magic stated Chandra is the only 3-card walker in the set...but we do get a mythic Green Walker **.
Another card I’ve been testing is Garruk, Caller of Beasts. It’s at the 6-mana sweet spot, can refill if you don’t have the pieces you want; and can also cheat-in huge creatures the same turn. Obviously there is the fun of Progenitus; but even for things like Craterhoof, Elderscale Wurm, Terasradon, Dragonlord Atarka, etc. that 1-3 mana difference can be a full turn.
Well guys, it's been fun lurking here and occasionally discussing deck lists but I think this is the end of my modern magic career. I just went up to my LGS to get my playset of Llanowar Tribe and opened up my magic bag to find that my modern deck had been stolen. I turned the entire backpack and store inside out looking for it but to no avail. I know it's not at my house because I only goldfish my lists by using TappedOut.net to avoid wear-and-tear on my cards. My deckbox also contained all the D20s and D6s I've been collecting since I started playing magic back in Theros, so my only conclusion can be that I took out the box to use my dice at the War of the Spark prerelease and someone decided to help themselves to my deck when I turned my back.
This is now twice that this has happened at that store, first with my Commander deck several years ago and now with the modern deck I spent years collecting cards for. I simply don't have the money to spend on rebuilding the deck from scratch with what little remains in my trade binder. It's been quite the ride the past couple of years but I can't bring myself to invest more money and emotional energy in this game if my cards are just going to get periodically stolen.
I'll definitely swing by every once in a while to lurk or theory craft around my favorite green cards but this is goodbye for now. I'll always look back on my years playing this game fondly. Until then, keep your Primal Commands looped and your Nykthos's untapped. May RNGesus smile upon you and remember to always play to your outs. Magic my seem like a fickle mistress at times but if there's one thing I've learned from this game over the years it's that there's no point in getting frustrated at the parts of the game that you can't control. Just do the best with the information you have and your win rate will thank you for it in the long run.
My current Tooth and Nail list is actually playing 4 Arbor Elf, 4 Utopia Sprawl AND 4 Birds, so I suppose I'm already taking your advice (though I suppose my newest rendition ought to reflect this).
I think what led me to playing Birds was me getting sick of Voyaging Satyr. Costing 2 was always awkward because, if I didn't have a turn 1 play, I already wasn't ramping, which also means I don't have Utopia Sprawl to use with him. Then, on turn 2, I can play the Satyr, but unless I have Overgrowth on 3, Voyaging Satyr won't make me any more than 1 mana, and that's just atrocious. Sure, when I've got a decked out Forest, the Satyr is quite good. In fact, I think I liked him better than Garruk, being easier to cast and all. But Voyaging Satyr frequently disappointed me.
If what I wanted was ramp, it made more sense to increase my number of 1-drops. Turn 1 is the best time to play a ramp spell for so many reasons. It's at the very beginning of the game meaning not only will my opponent not be pressuring me yet, but I'll also be getting the maximum possible return on my card since I can extract value out of it every single turn it remains in play, and there's no possible way to play something sooner. Turn 1 is also the turn where I have the least useful things to do because I don't yet have any significant resources at my disposal, so I may as well capitalize off that fact by finding something productive to do at that time. After all, if I intended to ramp on 2 and do nothing on 1, I may as well just ramp on 1 instead. And in the event I draw multiple 1-drops, that's okay too. Playing additional 1-drops on 2 is fine. If anything, it ensures I don't stumble if my opponent does kill a 1-drop.
This exactly. I have been running 21 land, 12 dorks in Tooth and Nail for a long time now, and I think this is the right call. Now that we have both Overgrowth and Tribe to work with, getting to 3 on turn 2 is a must (if it wasn't already - which it was). Birds is sometimes mediocre since it doesn't contribute to the elf-sprawl engine, but it has upside in color fixing and flying. Bird + Wolf Run over an Ensnaring Bridge is useful trick.
@arrogantAxolotol excellent math work by the way!
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About what we gain from Horizons:
1) Llanowar Tribe is great. Yes it dies to removal, but it also taps for 3 mana, is easily playable on two, adds 6 mana if you have a Nykthos, and holds the ground against early aggressive starts. It presents a bit of a kill-it-or-die situation for opponents, because if we untap with it we are probably casting something stupid.
2) This is a bit of a sleeper, but I feel like we should be giving more attention to Eladamri's Call. The fact that it can be cast when you don't have a lot of mana, unlike pact or chord, gives it flexibility that our other tutors lack:
- Helps if the hand has top end but not enough ramp by opening up lines like T1 Forest > Sprawl, T2 Land > Call and play elf, T3 Land > 6 mana.
- You can cast it using leftover mana from whatever your play was to set up next turn's threat.
- If it gets countered you didn't spend your whole turn and tap your team casting it.
- It can also find nongreen creatures like Walking Ballista or an eldrazi.
3) Has anyone looked into Winds of Abandon? If your deck can support WW, a spot removal/one-sided sweeper split card that also randomly hates on all this graveyard nonsense sounds good to me.
4) Collector Ouphe. Stony Silence on a green stick? Sign me up.
Here's a list, let me know what you think Naya Call Tooth and Nail
The suite of tutorable creatures in the main is not in any way finalized yet, but I think I am on the right track. Scavenging ooze and thragtusk are consessions to bad matchups that are also just solid cards. Ballista is just good, and Call solves the problem of not wanting to see it in some opening hands. World Breaker is a pet card of mine and a catch-all against flyers, pro-green, and problem permanents.
Much of the board is just more tutor targets. If you have suggestions, let me know.
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About Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis:
I have played against the deck twice. The first time, I lost badly, but I didn't know what I was doing. The second time I won. Having 6 copies each of Scavenging Ooze and Collector Ouphe in your deck can pick them apart. I'm not saying that it's not a strong deck - it is, and the nut draws are scary fast. But I'm not too worried about it because if your throw a wrench in their plans, they tend to just spin wheels.
I will probably add one more SB card against it though.
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@BlatantLizard I'm sorry man. That stinks.
You're a good theorycrafter though, would love it if you popped in here every so often.
I have been running 21 land, 12 dorks in Tooth and Nail for a long time now, and I think this is the right call. Now that we have both Overgrowth and Tribe to work with, getting to 3 on turn 2 is a must (if it wasn't already - which it was). Birds is sometimes mediocre since it doesn't contribute to the elf-sprawl engine, but it has upside in color fixing and flying.
Yeah, now that I'm 100% positive I ought to be playing 4 Birds of Paradise, I'm also beginning to wonder if playing some number of 5-drops might also be correct. Sure, reaching 6 mana turn 3 isn't that difficult, but there are still some lines that get to 5 but not 6.
These are all the lines involving Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl, and Overgrowth that get to 5 mana turn 3 with five or fewer cards that don't get to 6. Admittedly, many of these lines are redundant, but I decided to include every possible sequence this time because topdecks will sometimes affect the order in which I play cards despite the cards themselves all still being the same. I also added an Overgrowth line I overlooked the previous time. (Oops!)
From this information, it looks to me that getting to 5 on turn 3 usually involves drawing no 3-drops, two lands, two 1-drops, and either a third land or a third 1-drop. Clearly, this is not always the case. There are lines that get to 5 with one land. There are lines that get to 5 with Overgrowth. There are lines that get to 5 with four cards. But generally speaking, getting to 5 on turn 3 usually means having no 3-drops, two lands, two 1-drops, and then a third land or third 1-drop. Birds of Paradise noticeably has the most lines that get to 5 since, for all intents and purposes, it's effectively always +1 mana. Utopia Sprawl is similar, but since it and Overgrowth interact with Arbor Elf in ways that make more than 5 by turn 3, not as many lines involve them. And Llanowar Tribe is nowhere to be seen since, if I cast Llanowar Tribe turn 2, I'm guaranteed to make it to 6 mana turn 3 barring shenanigans.
Anywho, I took a look at all the 5-drops available, and this is everything I thought was notable:
I think a lot of the qualities that I want in a 6-drop are qualities I want in a 5-drop too. Essentially, if it's the only non-ramp spell I have, I want to make sure that whatever 5-drop I have doesn't leave me stranded in the event something happens to it. That could mean being resilient by having hexproof or indestructible. That could also mean being resilient by making multiple bodies. Even cards that draw other cards can help me dig for whatever I need the following turn. Whatever the card, I want to be sure it has gusto. Playing lots of ramp spells inherently means playing fewer business spells, so the business spells I do play need to be carefully curated lest I choose poorly and suffer at the hands of some ineffectual card.
Additional Mana — Not a fan of any of these. Once I reach the upper half of my curve, I want to be casting spells that meaningfully impact the game, not spells that don't do anything significant aside from make even more mana. That's what the less expensive cards are for.
Big Chungus — These suck. If all I'm getting for 5 is a body, I may as well get a resilient one. Their increase in size doesn't make up for their vulnerability.
Card Draw — The only card I'd consider here is Urban Evolution as the others are all too fragile. Is the ability to make an extra land drop worth an additional blue? Maybe. I'm not sure. With the Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Utopia Sprawl line, it's possible to get to 4 turn 2, and Harmonize turn 2 is big game. But in every other case, Urban Evolution is going to be better since the land it puts into play still leaves me with the same amount of mana as Harmonize.
Land Destruction — Deus of Calamity is salient in that it takes over games better than any other card. As a whole, I think it's still worse than a card like Primeval Titan though. There are just so many ways to take over the game while still getting some kind of value in the event my card is destroyed before it gets started. Plow Under is another brutal 5-drop. It works best with pressure, and that's something I can't provide alongside it most of the time, but it may be worth playing just as a way to stall for more turns/mana. Losing two lands/draw steps is no joke.
Life Gain — There are a few different ways to gain life, but it's hard to beat Thragtusk and Primal Command. Batterskull is interesting in that it provides recurring life gain as well as a resilient/flexible body, but the fact that it doesn't immediately gain me life when it comes into play makes me sour to it. Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves can gain life and kill an aggressive creature at the same time. I'm not sure it will be better than Thragtusk against a deck like burn though. The raw amount of life a card initially gains matters quite a lot.
Multiple Bodies — There are a lot of cards in this category but not too many I'm especially fond of. Thragtusk and Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves are both solid. Deep Forest Hermit provides the most effective bodies the turn it comes into play. Biogenic Ooze provides a useful mana sink, but it falters a lot like Deep Forest Hermit if it's removed the turn it's played. I don't think I care much for any of these.
Other — This is a mixed bag. Not a lot to say here. None of these cards look like especially great options.
Planeswalker — I like planeswalkers A LOT. They do something relevant the moment I play them, so even if they're removed I still got something out of them. They threaten to take over the game by repeating some action each turn they remain on the battlefield. That makes it so they frequently can't be ignored. They're also less prone to removal; fewer cards outright kill planeswalkers than do creatures. And if they're ignored long enough, their ultimates can win the game on their own. Hell, about the only thing planeswalkers have going against them is that they're soft to on-board threats if I don't have a way to protect them. As such, I might not get enough out of them if they happen to die prematurely. Still, having said all of that, planeswalker is an awesome card type. It provides exactly what a ramp deck wants in an expensive card.
Looking over the walkers I listed, it's unfortunate that none have any +2 abilities. Of the bunch, I'm only giving any kind of real consideration to the ones with five starting loyalty. While it's possible that a planeswalker's abilities can compensate for their lack of initial loyalty, four starting loyalty is pretty underwhelming for a 5-drop, and three is downright insulting. That's just way too fragile.
Recently, I've experimented with Nissa, Who Shakes the World thinking her static paired with her +1 might be great both at ramping and at breaking a stalemate. What I didn't consider is just how few lands I usually have in play. The extra mana she makes, while nice, just isn't worth the price of the card, and her ability to spit out 3/3s wasn't impressive enough to make me want her in the absence of ludicrous mana.
Nissa, Vital Force is another card I have experience playing albeit not in modern. What I least like about Vital Force is her +1 ability. When I play a planeswalker, what I want is a minus ability that strongly impacts the game and a plus ability that I can feel great about using turn after turn in the event that I don't need to use the minus ability. Untapping a land and making a temporary 5/5 isn't something I can really get behind though. Her Horn of Greed, while not too hard to reach, is too slow in this style of deck, and her Nature's Spiral can't return some of my most powerful cards which are sorceries. Overall, her two minus abilities don't compensate for her lackluster plus ability.
That leaves Vivien Reid. She's the best of the lot in my opinion. Her minus ability is both impactful and provides interaction. Her plus ability is stellar, certainly better than drawing a card each turn. Sure, she only Impulses for creatures, so Vivien can't find other planeswalkers, but as long as I play enough creature cards both in my top end and overall, I'm sure I'll get enough mileage out of her even if sometimes she does brick on a land. When I'm seriously far behind and not facing down something Vivien can specifically destroy, Vivien's likely a dead card. Nevertheless, I think she's a strong consideration. There will be instances where digging four cards and redirecting six damage is still a worthwhile play at 5 mana.
Removal — Not a lot to consider here. Acidic Slime is reasonable, but likely worse than Vivien Reid in most cases. We see Tolsimir here again as he sort of dips into every category. He's not exceptionally great at killing creatures though. Probably best at dealing with Lavinias and Gaddock Teegs.
Resilient — Thornling and Vorapede both look terrible. Oversoul of Dusk is interesting, but I don't think I want a 5-drop that's an evasive, resilient beater and nothing else. Underrealm Lich seems promising. While still vulnerable to effects like Path to Exile, the Lich is generally difficult to get rid of. That, and it helps find additional threats (or whatever else I might need) to play on subsequent turns. Possibly one of the better 5-drops I could play.
I mean, why do you want to play these cards specifically? Is it just to try stuff out?
Yeah, Wild Growth would have been ridiculous.
I don't doubt this at all. I simply wonder how many copies I should play. I'm inclined towards two since Karn seems especially bad in multiples, but maybe Karn is so good that I actually want even more. I don't know yet. I probably ought to buy a couple right now. Thankfully, I already own a copy of Lattice, being a Commander player and all. That card has gotten expensive.
Well, you're not wrong. If I play more 1-drops, I'm going to draw more 1-drops. That's just sort of inevitable. If anything, the fact I can draw a bunch of Birds in the late game demonstrates just how important it is that I choose the right payoff cards. If I choose poor payoff cards and my opponent answers them without them putting me in a winning position, it's entirely possible I just draw dead the rest of the game. If I don't play lots of 1-drops though, I'll be way less likely to ever cast my payoff cards in the first place. It's sort of a necessary trade off.
By "both" I presume you mean Eternal Witness.
Here's a thought: maybe Primal Command isn't important if I'm already playing Woodland Bellower. The two cards clearly aren't the same, but they're similarly costed, and nearly all the modes on Primal Command can be imitated by Woodland Bellower. If I want to find a creature, Woodland Bellower already does that (and casts it for free!) provided the card costs 3 or less. Hell, Arbor Elf was one of the cards I found most with Primal Command anyway. And if what I want is life, there's Knight of Autumn. Naturalize? Also, Knight of Autumn. That's especially nice considering Primal Command couldn't permanently address noncreature permanents without also choosing the shuffle graveyard mode. And speaking of graveyards, there's both Loaming Shaman and Scavenging Ooze to deal with those. About the only thing I lose on Primal Command is the ability to Time Walk opponents by casting half a Plow Under. But considering that typically wasn't useful for me beyond being a stall tactic since I frequently wouldn't have a board state to capitalize off the momentum, it isn't something I'd be too sad to see myself lose.
Thank you for the praise. I put a lot of effort into that.
Here are my thoughts on Oath of Nissa. It's exactly the kind of card I would want to play if I thought I could ever afford to cast it.
On turn 1, I want to cast a 1-drop and absolutely nothing else. That means I'm going to play several 1-drops to ensure I always have one in my opener. Sure, if I had Oath of Nissa in my hand and I didn't have a 1-drop, then I would happily cast Oath of Nissa instead. That isn't a situation I ever want to be in though, hence the reason for playing so many 1-drops. Playing a 1-drop turn 1 is always more important than playing Oath of Nissa.
On turn 2, because I'm casting a 1-drop turn 1, I want to cast a 3-drop, and preferably either Overgrowth or Llanowar Tribe. Granted, I won't always have one of those, and even when I do there's a chance my opponent bolts my bird, so sometimes I'll have 2 or 3 mana and no way to spend it. In those instances, I would gladly cast Oath of Nissa since I gained a turn I wouldn't have otherwise had. It is, however, also possible that I just have two more 1-drops that I can play to fill the void of the first one, so Oath of Nissa won't always be a feasible line even when I can't play a 3-drop.
On turn 3, provided everything went according to plan, I want to cast my payoff card. That will probably use most if not all of my mana. Again, things won't always go so smoothly, so there's room for deviation, but depending upon how much mana I have, Oath of Nissa would often be a good play here. If I don't have a payoff card or enough mana to cast said payoff card, Oath of Nissa can find either, and sometimes I'll even be able to play what it finds the same turn.
So, when's the earliest I'll realistically cast Oath of Nissa? Turn 2? Maybe turn 3? A lot of the utility in Oath of Nissa comes from the fact that it can be played on turn 1 when I wouldn't otherwise have anything useful to do. But in this deck, I do always have something useful to do on turn 1. And once I have lots of mana, there are other cards like Harmonize and Hydroid Krasis that compete with Oath of Nissa's effect, so I'm not sure where it fits. It's possible that a cantrip effect like Oath of Nissa is still what I want despite being awkward the first couple of turns. I'm just not completely sure though.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
The eldrazi and such are just because goldfishing got boring I guess. Haha. I like to experiment.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I tend to play decks that want them mostly because of the lines of play for turn 2. I think Arrogant thinks very similar in terms of lines of play.
I have a lot of lines that involve playing 2-drops and 1-drops. A few examples (just assuming I played a Dork on turn 1):
- play Wall of Blossoms and another dork OR Oath of Nissa
- Play Kiora, untap...play Oath of dork (or Wall of Blossoms if Land untapped had Utopia Sprawl on it).
- play dork, Oath, dork
I am currently playing a few tribes as well; but you get the picture.
In a deck focused heavily one turn 1 dork, turn 2 Tribe/Overgrowth you don’t need the cantrips as much.
I don’t think Oath is a necessary card; but it is a very good one. Obviously nearly all Walker decks want them....but even using it as a pseudo-Ponder is rarely a bad thing. But it is one mana and one slot you could spend on something else.
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I actually prefer Woodland Bellower to Primal Command...so I may try this out. I know it can’t replicate the “time walk” land drop loop; but it is nice to build a board up while being a little interactive.
Unfortunately I think only the main Hornet gets the buff/haste (if I remember correctly). It’s still amazing at X=10+ (traditionally game ending). I could be wrong on this; but I thought that A judge outlined this to me.
Having said that, Finale is a great option for many Devotion decks. Gives you the ability to tutor for bullets while ALSO being game ending once you hit 12 mana 90% of the time. I think you could brew very successfully around Finale. I for one would love to see it!
I say try out everything you think of. I can’t count the times I’ve had an idea and didn’t realize (a) how good it was and/or interactions I hadn’t even thought of and//or (b) how bad it was or how a deck needed to change to support it. Theory crafting is super important; bout nothing can replicate playing a decklist against a “gauntlet” of the top decks in Modern (and a few tier 2 ones to be safe ).
I do normally advise people to play a full 75 when testing (or at minimum knowing how the board could resolve issues). Your game one deck doesn’t need to beat everything (often doing so muddies the deck)...but having a board to shore up weaknesses is a must. If I know my deck folds to infect...that’s fine as long as I play Melina, Spellskite, Force of Vigor, Etc. (There are many ways to deal with it depending on your main) In the board.
So I'm guessing that it's each one of the creatures that you control get haste and plusx/plusx
If you stack the triggers, you get twelve flying 11/11 hasty beaters.
I could be wrong, but I'm buying a playset as if I'm not.
Time will tell.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
I bought a playset even thinking it couldn't... so I don't blame you
That just seems like pure fun Can you imagine what your opponent was thinking? In a deck like that (you could even play the Devoted Druid combo just for the heck of it) it is a great one-of to just finish the game...a lot of times though; just having a few dorks (Arbor Elf, Bird, even Llanowar Tribe) and fetching something is more than enough to deal 30+ damage. Its a really cool card.
_______
So I have actually been kinda surprised...I wasn't certain Llanowar Tribe was going to be good in my more Walker-centric Devotion deck. It is. It is very near busted. It seems like a must kill 3-drop or the opponent just loses (often the next turn). I knew the card was bonkers in the creature-heavy decks; but wasn't entirely sold on my deck (I just have reservations about 3-drops that I think comes from a VERY distant past when fair decks actually mattered but I was wrong. It seems bonkers even in my deck. Makes me excited for the true viability of Devotion.
Having said this, I actually think it may not be great in the Pact lists necessarily. It feels like more of a "combo" style card. Playing ramp at 3-CMC is risky and can lead to potential blow outs if not mitigated well. Becoming too focused on a game plan (especially in ramp) can be a really poor plan. This is because we "stack" the "one good discard spell" or "one good counter" issue with the "draw the wrong half of the deck" issue ramp decks have.
Another obstacle we have to think about is the new speed of what will be the meta for the next 6 months. Even with Tribe we are still slower than the fastest decks (and thanks to Horizons/London Mulligan rule we now have at least two more turn 2-3 decks in Hoggak/Vengevine and Neoform decks). I am winning more on turn 3 than I ever have; but still not as consistently as the fastest combo decks do. Karn has helped (as on the play a turn 2-3 Karn can grab a good hate piece); but sideboards are where we will make most of these decisions. Maybe a full playset of Leylines?
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Llanowar Tribe
1x Eternal Witness
1x Genesis Hydra
Artifact/Enchantment (8)
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Oath of Nissa
1x Cloudstone Curio
Planeswalker (11)
3x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Karn, the Great Creator
1x Karn Liberated
4x Genesis Wave
Land (21)
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
8x Forest
2x Waterlogged Grove
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Blast Zone
2x Force of Vigor
2x Primal Command
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Walking Ballista
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trinisphere
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Mycosynth Lattice
2x Flex
- The witness is not the most powerful thing in the main; but it can loop Waves, is great once Command is sideboarded in, etc.
- Still working on the perfect board; but feel pretty good about it.
- I don't know if Genesis Hydra is necessary; but I feel like we need more against control (I haven't found it to be a difficult match up yet; but their elists are getting good...and if they can stop me early before we overwhelm them I will need to devote more to the match up)
- I may only need three waves...could diversify the big cards.
____________
I haven't had enough time to delve into my other list...but the focus has been very heavy on trying to make Domri, Anarch of Bolas and Woodland Bellower a thing...I don't know if they work well together; but I love both of them and really want them to I like the Woodland Bellower can work as a pseudo interactive card (by getting things like Reclamation Sage, Loaming Shman, etc.) so it would work somewhat similarly to Karn (in that it tutors for specific hate)...the downside being that it costs 6 mana; with the upside being that it gets the tutored card free of charge and it adds to devotion...It feels like the card is breakable. With the Core I use, Tribe, and Bellower (and currently with Domri) there really are only a few flex spots...its really just finding the best way to win the game with this package.
With the exception of decks like Manaless Dredge, literally every deck needs mana. It's the reason every deck plays lands; it's so they can cast their spells. Llanowar Tribe isn't a free mana source like lands are, but mana sources don't need to be free to be worth playing. They just need to be better at making mana than other cards. This is why ramp spells have always been attractive to me. Yes, making more mana sooner is a great quality to have, but ramp spells aren't awesome only because they put me further ahead on mana. They're awesome because they can make mana better than lands can. And if I have to make mana to cast the spells that I want, I may as well be good at it, right? It only makes sense.
I can understand this sentiment. Some cards, despite being better than other cards of the same kind, won't fit equally well in every deck because some considerations must be made beyond whether one card is better than another. Mana curves are one example of this. If Card A costs 4 mana and Card B costs 3 mana but Card A is also ten times better than Card B, even though it might seem crazy to ever play Card B when I could play Card A, perhaps it's still possible that I already have so many other cards that cost 4 that what I realistically need is anything other than another 4-drop even if that means playing something objectively worse in a vacuum.
I'm not worried about faster decks for several reasons.
1.) Super fast decks tend to be extremely inconsistent. Sure, it feels bad when my opponent gets a lucky hand and kills me out of nowhere without me having any recourse. That doesn't mean they'll always be quick enough or consistent enough to warrant taking action against.
2.) Super fast decks tend to be hyperlinear. This makes them especially soft to sideboard cards. Decks like Dredge are powerful, but unless they draw some very specific cards, they often fold to a resolved Rest in Peace. Being prepared by having the right sideboard cards to combat these kinds of decks can go a long way towards not losing to them. As for what sideboard cards I should play specifically, I'm not sure. Leyline of Sanctity might be worth playing. I just don't have enough experience sideboarding to say much with confidence yet.
3.) Super fast decks that are somehow both consistent and resilient still run the risk of something getting banned. If any specific deck becomes too problematic, Wizards can always course correct and ban whatever card or cards that they deem are too much trouble.
4.) Perhaps the best reason why I'm not worried about faster decks is that I simply don't care. I want to play ramp. If I cared about losing, I could play "the best deck" instead. If I cared about losing in very specific ways, I could pack my deck full of interaction. I don't care about those things though. What I want to do is play ramp. That means I'm willing to accept the consequences of my decision. Every deck is going to have weaknesses, and one of ramp's weaknesses is that it tends to be linear; it has to play a lot of redundant cards to achieve its goals, and it often won't have space (or even the right colors necessary) to play more interactive cards. These are all things I'm okay with. If I wasn't, I ought to play something else.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I make this, what you think?
4 Arbor Elf
4 Wistful Selkie
4 Eternal Witness
1 Hornet Queen
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
15 Forest
1 Blast Zone
Sorcery
3 Genesis Wave
3 Primal Command
Planeswalker
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
The only suggestions I would make:
1. Try Llanowar Tribe. Maybe in place of 1-2 Wistful Selkies and possibly one Witness and/or land.
2. Maybe cut a land (or two ). I should likely be playing 22; but 24 does seem a little high for me. This could open up at least one of the slots for Tribe as well.
That's really the only suggestions I would make; and only because I've had good recent experiences with llanowar tribe. If you get a chance to grind it; please let us know how it went!
I think you are right playing more lands than I have in the past though...I am considering adding a land. Don't know what I would cut (or if I would just run 61 cards) but generally pros say "take your deck...and add a land!" haha. Having said this, we can run pretty well on a lower land count. Madcap Devotion 5-0'd with only 20 lands. I'll have to look back as to how many lands the 5-0 decks ran to get a better picture.
______
I think the thing I like most about Llanowar Tribe is that it feels like a card that is only for us What I mean is that while it doesn't require Devotion to be good (tapping for three mana is extremely powerful); with Devotion it is bonkers powerful. I like when we can differentiate ourselves from other decks (i.e. so we are not just Amulet, Tron, etc. from a different angle) and I feel like Tribe helps us do that.
Another card I’ve been testing is Garruk, Caller of Beasts. It’s at the 6-mana sweet spot, can refill if you don’t have the pieces you want; and can also cheat-in huge creatures the same turn. Obviously there is the fun of Progenitus; but even for things like Craterhoof, Elderscale Wurm, Terasradon, Dragonlord Atarka, etc. that 1-3 mana difference can be a full turn.
This is now twice that this has happened at that store, first with my Commander deck several years ago and now with the modern deck I spent years collecting cards for. I simply don't have the money to spend on rebuilding the deck from scratch with what little remains in my trade binder. It's been quite the ride the past couple of years but I can't bring myself to invest more money and emotional energy in this game if my cards are just going to get periodically stolen.
I'll definitely swing by every once in a while to lurk or theory craft around my favorite green cards but this is goodbye for now. I'll always look back on my years playing this game fondly. Until then, keep your Primal Commands looped and your Nykthos's untapped. May RNGesus smile upon you and remember to always play to your outs. Magic my seem like a fickle mistress at times but if there's one thing I've learned from this game over the years it's that there's no point in getting frustrated at the parts of the game that you can't control. Just do the best with the information you have and your win rate will thank you for it in the long run.
This exactly. I have been running 21 land, 12 dorks in Tooth and Nail for a long time now, and I think this is the right call. Now that we have both Overgrowth and Tribe to work with, getting to 3 on turn 2 is a must (if it wasn't already - which it was). Birds is sometimes mediocre since it doesn't contribute to the elf-sprawl engine, but it has upside in color fixing and flying. Bird + Wolf Run over an Ensnaring Bridge is useful trick.
@arrogantAxolotol excellent math work by the way!
~~~
About what we gain from Horizons:
1) Llanowar Tribe is great. Yes it dies to removal, but it also taps for 3 mana, is easily playable on two, adds 6 mana if you have a Nykthos, and holds the ground against early aggressive starts. It presents a bit of a kill-it-or-die situation for opponents, because if we untap with it we are probably casting something stupid.
CurdBros said it better than I can...
2) This is a bit of a sleeper, but I feel like we should be giving more attention to Eladamri's Call. The fact that it can be cast when you don't have a lot of mana, unlike pact or chord, gives it flexibility that our other tutors lack:
- Helps if the hand has top end but not enough ramp by opening up lines like T1 Forest > Sprawl, T2 Land > Call and play elf, T3 Land > 6 mana.
- You can cast it using leftover mana from whatever your play was to set up next turn's threat.
- If it gets countered you didn't spend your whole turn and tap your team casting it.
- It can also find nongreen creatures like Walking Ballista or an eldrazi.
3) Has anyone looked into Winds of Abandon? If your deck can support WW, a spot removal/one-sided sweeper split card that also randomly hates on all this graveyard nonsense sounds good to me.
4) Collector Ouphe. Stony Silence on a green stick? Sign me up.
Here's a list, let me know what you think
Naya Call Tooth and Nail
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Overgrowth
4 Llanowar Tribe
3 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
3 Primeval Titan
3 Tooth and Nail
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Walking Ballista
1 Thragtusk
1 World Breaker
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
8 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Collector Ouphe
1 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Thragtusk
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Damping Sphere
1 Raking Canopy
2 Rhythm of the Wild
2 Winds of Abandon
The suite of tutorable creatures in the main is not in any way finalized yet, but I think I am on the right track. Scavenging ooze and thragtusk are consessions to bad matchups that are also just solid cards. Ballista is just good, and Call solves the problem of not wanting to see it in some opening hands. World Breaker is a pet card of mine and a catch-all against flyers, pro-green, and problem permanents.
Much of the board is just more tutor targets. If you have suggestions, let me know.
~~~
About Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis:
I have played against the deck twice. The first time, I lost badly, but I didn't know what I was doing. The second time I won. Having 6 copies each of Scavenging Ooze and Collector Ouphe in your deck can pick them apart. I'm not saying that it's not a strong deck - it is, and the nut draws are scary fast. But I'm not too worried about it because if your throw a wrench in their plans, they tend to just spin wheels.
I will probably add one more SB card against it though.
~~~
@BlatantLizard I'm sorry man. That stinks.
You're a good theorycrafter though, would love it if you popped in here every so often.
Leading Arbor Elf:
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Utopia Sprawl —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Arbor Elf, Arbor Elf
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Birds of Paradise, Birds of Paradise
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Arbor Elf, Arbor Elf —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Birds of Paradise, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Arbor Elf —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land
Leading Birds of Paradise:
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Overgrowth
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Arbor Elf, Arbor Elf
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Birds of Paradise, Birds of Paradise
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Utopia Sprawl, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Arbor Elf, Arbor Elf —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Birds of Paradise, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Utopia Sprawl, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Arbor Elf —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
Leading Utopia Sprawl:
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Arbor Elf
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Arbor Elf —> Land
5 mana, 4 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Overgrowth
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Birds of Paradise, Birds of Paradise
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Utopia Sprawl, Utopia Sprawl
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Birds of Paradise, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Utopia Sprawl, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Birds of Paradise —> Land
5 mana, 5 cards:Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land, Utopia Sprawl —> Land
These are all the lines involving Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Utopia Sprawl, and Overgrowth that get to 5 mana turn 3 with five or fewer cards that don't get to 6. Admittedly, many of these lines are redundant, but I decided to include every possible sequence this time because topdecks will sometimes affect the order in which I play cards despite the cards themselves all still being the same. I also added an Overgrowth line I overlooked the previous time. (Oops!)
From this information, it looks to me that getting to 5 on turn 3 usually involves drawing no 3-drops, two lands, two 1-drops, and either a third land or a third 1-drop. Clearly, this is not always the case. There are lines that get to 5 with one land. There are lines that get to 5 with Overgrowth. There are lines that get to 5 with four cards. But generally speaking, getting to 5 on turn 3 usually means having no 3-drops, two lands, two 1-drops, and then a third land or third 1-drop. Birds of Paradise noticeably has the most lines that get to 5 since, for all intents and purposes, it's effectively always +1 mana. Utopia Sprawl is similar, but since it and Overgrowth interact with Arbor Elf in ways that make more than 5 by turn 3, not as many lines involve them. And Llanowar Tribe is nowhere to be seen since, if I cast Llanowar Tribe turn 2, I'm guaranteed to make it to 6 mana turn 3 barring shenanigans.
Anywho, I took a look at all the 5-drops available, and this is everything I thought was notable:
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
1 Vivien Reid
Life Gain
1 Batterskull
1 Primal Command
1 Thragtusk
1 Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
1 Trostani Discordant
Multiple Bodies
1 Biogenic Ooze
1 Deep Forest Hermit
1 Fated Intervention
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Tendershoot Dryad
1 Thragtusk
1 Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
1 Trostani Discordant
1 Whisperwood Elemental
1 Batterskull
1 Oversoul of Dusk
1 Thornling
1 Underrealm Lich
1 Vorapede
Big Chungus
1 Awakening of Vitu-Ghazi
1 Gigantosaurus
1 Heroes' Bane
Removal
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primal Command
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
Additional Mana
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Kruphix, God of Horizons
1 Nikya of the Old Ways
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Rude Awakening
1 Deus of Calamity
1 Plow Under
1 Primal Command
Card Draw
1 Tatyova, Benthic Druid
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 The Mending of Dominaria
1 Urban Evolution
Other
1 Genesis
1 Primal Command
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Roalesk, Apex Hybrid
1 Rude Awakening
1 Samut, Voice of Dissent
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Whisperwood Elemental
Additional Mana — Not a fan of any of these. Once I reach the upper half of my curve, I want to be casting spells that meaningfully impact the game, not spells that don't do anything significant aside from make even more mana. That's what the less expensive cards are for.
Big Chungus — These suck. If all I'm getting for 5 is a body, I may as well get a resilient one. Their increase in size doesn't make up for their vulnerability.
Card Draw — The only card I'd consider here is Urban Evolution as the others are all too fragile. Is the ability to make an extra land drop worth an additional blue? Maybe. I'm not sure. With the Land, Arbor Elf —> Land, Utopia Sprawl line, it's possible to get to 4 turn 2, and Harmonize turn 2 is big game. But in every other case, Urban Evolution is going to be better since the land it puts into play still leaves me with the same amount of mana as Harmonize.
Land Destruction — Deus of Calamity is salient in that it takes over games better than any other card. As a whole, I think it's still worse than a card like Primeval Titan though. There are just so many ways to take over the game while still getting some kind of value in the event my card is destroyed before it gets started. Plow Under is another brutal 5-drop. It works best with pressure, and that's something I can't provide alongside it most of the time, but it may be worth playing just as a way to stall for more turns/mana. Losing two lands/draw steps is no joke.
Life Gain — There are a few different ways to gain life, but it's hard to beat Thragtusk and Primal Command. Batterskull is interesting in that it provides recurring life gain as well as a resilient/flexible body, but the fact that it doesn't immediately gain me life when it comes into play makes me sour to it. Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves can gain life and kill an aggressive creature at the same time. I'm not sure it will be better than Thragtusk against a deck like burn though. The raw amount of life a card initially gains matters quite a lot.
Multiple Bodies — There are a lot of cards in this category but not too many I'm especially fond of. Thragtusk and Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves are both solid. Deep Forest Hermit provides the most effective bodies the turn it comes into play. Biogenic Ooze provides a useful mana sink, but it falters a lot like Deep Forest Hermit if it's removed the turn it's played. I don't think I care much for any of these.
Other — This is a mixed bag. Not a lot to say here. None of these cards look like especially great options.
Planeswalker — I like planeswalkers A LOT. They do something relevant the moment I play them, so even if they're removed I still got something out of them. They threaten to take over the game by repeating some action each turn they remain on the battlefield. That makes it so they frequently can't be ignored. They're also less prone to removal; fewer cards outright kill planeswalkers than do creatures. And if they're ignored long enough, their ultimates can win the game on their own. Hell, about the only thing planeswalkers have going against them is that they're soft to on-board threats if I don't have a way to protect them. As such, I might not get enough out of them if they happen to die prematurely. Still, having said all of that, planeswalker is an awesome card type. It provides exactly what a ramp deck wants in an expensive card.
Looking over the walkers I listed, it's unfortunate that none have any +2 abilities. Of the bunch, I'm only giving any kind of real consideration to the ones with five starting loyalty. While it's possible that a planeswalker's abilities can compensate for their lack of initial loyalty, four starting loyalty is pretty underwhelming for a 5-drop, and three is downright insulting. That's just way too fragile.
Recently, I've experimented with Nissa, Who Shakes the World thinking her static paired with her +1 might be great both at ramping and at breaking a stalemate. What I didn't consider is just how few lands I usually have in play. The extra mana she makes, while nice, just isn't worth the price of the card, and her ability to spit out 3/3s wasn't impressive enough to make me want her in the absence of ludicrous mana.
Nissa, Vital Force is another card I have experience playing albeit not in modern. What I least like about Vital Force is her +1 ability. When I play a planeswalker, what I want is a minus ability that strongly impacts the game and a plus ability that I can feel great about using turn after turn in the event that I don't need to use the minus ability. Untapping a land and making a temporary 5/5 isn't something I can really get behind though. Her Horn of Greed, while not too hard to reach, is too slow in this style of deck, and her Nature's Spiral can't return some of my most powerful cards which are sorceries. Overall, her two minus abilities don't compensate for her lackluster plus ability.
That leaves Vivien Reid. She's the best of the lot in my opinion. Her minus ability is both impactful and provides interaction. Her plus ability is stellar, certainly better than drawing a card each turn. Sure, she only Impulses for creatures, so Vivien can't find other planeswalkers, but as long as I play enough creature cards both in my top end and overall, I'm sure I'll get enough mileage out of her even if sometimes she does brick on a land. When I'm seriously far behind and not facing down something Vivien can specifically destroy, Vivien's likely a dead card. Nevertheless, I think she's a strong consideration. There will be instances where digging four cards and redirecting six damage is still a worthwhile play at 5 mana.
Removal — Not a lot to consider here. Acidic Slime is reasonable, but likely worse than Vivien Reid in most cases. We see Tolsimir here again as he sort of dips into every category. He's not exceptionally great at killing creatures though. Probably best at dealing with Lavinias and Gaddock Teegs.
Resilient — Thornling and Vorapede both look terrible. Oversoul of Dusk is interesting, but I don't think I want a 5-drop that's an evasive, resilient beater and nothing else. Underrealm Lich seems promising. While still vulnerable to effects like Path to Exile, the Lich is generally difficult to get rid of. That, and it helps find additional threats (or whatever else I might need) to play on subsequent turns. Possibly one of the better 5-drops I could play.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!