Hey Curdbros. I remember Michel Jacobs was using Genesis Wave to set up the Primal Command lock, with Eternal Witness. That probably means you need 2 more witnesses and two to 4 Primal commands, and probably craterhoof, if you try this approach. I feel it would increase the odds to win the turn you play G wave. You probably want the Kessig or Gavony, which I found to be way worse though, as a plan b as well (and playing 22 lands is fine). Also, maybe 4 Genesis Wave is a bit greedy no, since having several in your opening hand is so bad? Maybe having 1 or 2 more witnesses over visionaries helps you to set up a "value" Genesis Wave if you have nothing to do for x equals 3 or 4 since let's say if you hit witness and a land (and bin the other 1 or 2 cards), you still get devotion and a play for the next turn. 1 selkie or courser could replace another visionary since you don't have that many 3 drops. It's possible I undervalue the Shaman elf and it's just easier to sneak in with Garruk and Kiora the turn you play them and untap.
It should be nice if you try Magic Online. Maybe you can not buy the fetches first if you are not sure how you like the program and get the deck for about 20 ticks (that's an estimation, I don't precisely know), then if you enjoy it buy them and maybe some other expensive sideboard slots you need. Eager to see a video of your deck. As for the clicking, you probably want to learn the hotkeys, mainly f6, and have stops only at useful steps (upkeep and draw not necessary, so is beginning of your combat, their mainphase, etc... if you need them once in a game, because let's say you want to kill their rabblemaster before their begin combat, or ghost quarter the tron on their draw, you can manually put them and remove them right after).
Given that I had bad results with the Pact devotion deck that I have been building and trying, I played with Anthony's most recent lists I found to understand the precise logic. The results were not convincing so I probably won't stick with these versions.
I played 2 matchs with the curio combo deck. It's a ton of fun and I like the numbers. I understand the logic more than when i took about 1 minute to look at the list. So i basically understand that you want to have garruk and kiora, master of depth, as well as curio and Nykthos to produce inifinite mana and dig through the whole deck to find a creature to kill or a witness to find a spell to kill. I could do it a few times and laughed a lot
However the issue with clicking is real, sadly. Killing 5 lands with Acidic Slime took me about 8 minutes. It's possible that you just want to accomplish less efficient combo that are easier to do just because it saves you time online, as maybe you will want to give up with the deck.
I obviously have to practice a bit more with the deck to really know, because again, i believe you spent a lot of time and it's really precise. One change I immediatly made though was adding another Breeding Pool because I feel like you may not want to name blue in the first few times with utopia sprawl and people play a lot of field of ruins and ghost quarters, etc...
Also, to save time, maybe you want to have a few more 2 3 mana double devotion cards (or even 1 more Birds). By the way, the kill should probably be Walking Ballista but it's too much clicking. The only card I did not have was Blast Zone and I put a Gavony, which was helpful at pumping my bees and that I could activate several times with the untap ability. I don't really get the chord of calling since it's expensive and i believe you already need too many cards together to add another overcosted tutor. Finale of Devastation could be a fast way to win if you search for Hornet Queen adn a possible 2 mana play.
I am not in love with the Elvish Visionaries so far, I don't think they do enough. I'd probably replace them with a mix of mana (like Burning Tree, maybe try Lotus Cobra and see if in combination with Witness, the first wave can be followed by a 2nd in the same turn, though maybe the 3 mana Kiora is a better cobra) and cards that win if I don't find Genesis Wave, although they probably should be creatures because of Kiora minus.
You probably played 500 more games with the deck and you may wonder why the h... am I giving you thoughts on a 1 hour basis. But anyway, I'll keep playing with it because it's quite fun.
Not at all...every tip/thought is more than welcome! Thank you for such great points and suggestions on the deck. I can’t claim to know everything about the deck and hope the community can help make it even better. The new Kiora reinvigorated it; but there I’m sure there’s room for improvement. You make great points.
The Chord “package” can really be just about anything (there are 3-4 “flex slots” I think still can be worked within the deck.). Finale of Devastation is actually kind of an interesting idea as it would be a way to give everyone haste while functioning very much like Chord (as this deck tends to play at sorcery speed anyways).
You are extremely right about clicks. It is the biggest hit against the deck. The deck is much faster than most people realize looking at the list; and it is extremely consistent/resilient due to all of the card draw/digging...but it is tough to play up front (which can turn people off). I’m super impressed with how deep your understanding of the deck is so quickly.
You are right in finding another win-con (like banefire, etc.) that can just end the game quickly. I have used multiple different options in the past. I used:
1. Xenagos - the first deck used Xenagos to make infinite 2/2 haste creatures.
2. Karn Liberated to remove all permanents.
I’ve also used Walking Ballista, Purphoros for etb triggers, Banefire, etc. There are a million things you can do. I tend to prefer those that also function well in the deck without the combo. Waking Ballista is a good option. Not great off a wave; but that’s not a deal breaker (as Oath and Kiora both dig for creatures and Witness can bring it back if it hits the yard).
It’s my fault for not having a better option in there. When I play for extended periods in paper; I always end up with a super efficient version (removing any non-needed pieces from the main)...but you are right that if it got popular online it may need another card to finish the game quickly. It’s never fun for an opponent to lose for ten minutes straight having nothing they can do about it. It’s kinda like The current standard Reclamation/Turns deck but instead of taking multiple turns you take one very long turn
1. They act as a body that replaces itself to help protect walkers while also digging to the combo pieces.
2. They “loop” with any creature (or even two copies) to draw cards with Cloudstone Curio.
3. 2-drops tend to play smoothly in this deck. A lot of turn 2’s I tend to play a 1-drop and a 2-drop (visionary) rather than a 3-drop. Also, often times Kiora will untap to 2-mana rather than 3.
Having said this, I think (a) you could likely play 3 copies without noticing any real difference and (b) if you don’t like the card you may be able to get away without playing it depending on what you replaced it with (Selkie, Courser, Abundant Growth, etc.) For me it is just kind of a “glue” card that smooths/“tightens” the deck (if that makes any sense).
Initially I looked at playing more Abundant Growth in that spot (as it is more efficient, and it makes for “Curio loops” with Utopia Sprawl and/or Oath of Nissa where you draw/dig over and over for only 1-mana each)... but I worried that it would make the deck more vulnerable to land removal, could make the walkers easier to attack early, etc.
I say replace them and try it out. It will either show us they are great or give us a better option (win win!). I’m really excited to hear more about your experiences with the deck! I will try out some of your suggestions too.
I was wondering as well if elvish visionaries shouldn't be utopia sprawls, because drawing for G is pretty cool. There are several reasons elvish visionary is still probably better; can be found with Oath and Kiora, you have more creatures than enchents so maybe it's slightly harder to have several enchents with curio at the same time, it helps to chord, and another reason I forgot. It's easy though to go 3 mana Kiora into Abundant Growth. So i don't know about which one to play or what split to make.
This is the Curio Combo I played after a few matches.
21 lands including a Gavony (I have not tried Blast Zone)
4 Arbor Elf, 4 Utopia S., 3 Birds, 4 Oath of Nissa
4 Burning Tree Emissary
3 Eternal Witness, 2 Kiora Behemoth, 1 Cloudstone Curio
3 Garruk, 1 Kiora Master
3 Primal Command, 1 Acidic Slime
1 Hornet Queen
4 Genesis Wave, 1 Finale of Devastation (no Dryad Arbor with only one Finale)
I tried to make the mana producers cheaper in general because I believe you are often forced to play the first Genesis Wave for x equals 3 or 4 and cheap mana maybe helps you to play it for 1 more and you also have a slight more chance with more witnesses and bte to redo it in the same turn (and get about the same number of mana or even more if you Genesis Wave again, especially with Bte). The odds of this scenario occuring may not be that much more significant in practice. I lowered the planeswalkers/ curio count because I feel that the odds to keep going after Genesis Wave are about the same as I said, and the Curio aspect should be more to perform a strict combo, and it's so bad having it in your hand. At some point you bring back Finale from your graveyard with witness and you probably don't even need Hornet Queen.
I have been losing to other combo decks like tron or Ad Nauseam because I could not interact on turn 3. Either i did not have Genesis Wave or I could not produce a relevant one. So I added Primal Commands as a way to interact and another engine for the deck. Maybe you have an idea about another plan b... But having interaction is important especially on the draw, and as for me, I am not in love with most big creatures. I removed Titan which I found was not necessary although maybe searching for nykthos and untapping it in the same turn is necessary a good amount of the time. Maybe Hornet Queen should be 4th Primal Command or Witness, maybe it's good to have access to a big dude to defend the board...
I find that the coco version probably has access to more solutions regarding these matchups, like fulminator mage, maindeck reclamation sage, and access to cheaper ways to combo. Are you planning to make a video to prove me that I am wrong ?
Primal Command is ok but it reduces the Oath of Nissa and Kiora hits, so top decks Oath of Nissa have often been bad. Another issue is you don't have craterhoof because it may not be instant kill when you combo with genesis wave. So I kept playing Primal Command/Witnesses but could not always win, and would not have witnesses after for when I topdecked Genesis Wave to win for sure. One solution could be to reduce the number of PCs, but the deck would still need some amount of disruption since it's not the fastest or the most consistent. Integrating Woodland Bellower in the Primal Command loop could be good because you would have a real clock while Time Walking, plus some other disruption or interaction like Reclamation Sage / Knight of Autumn. Finding Knight of the Reliquary's never bad as well, maybe even burning Tree if you hit Bellower of a wave although maybe you don't need 2 more mana. Another disruption card is Friend to Wolves, but I wonder if he's not too midrangish most of the time. I fell the Kiora, Master... minus was a bit disappointing. The three mana one seems better, although she does nothing except mana (can sometimes draw 2 with Bellower into Knight OTR). So there's a balance to find.
I've lately shifted towards one of the Stupid Green builds. They tend to use Command better than the combo-oriented lists. As much as I liked Devotion with Command, the trend of Modern towards hyper-linear deck construction means that focus is required, and I don't think Command wants to be run in the same shell that fully leverages Garruk WS or KotR.
I've lately shifted towards one of the Stupid Green builds. They tend to use Command better than the combo-oriented lists. As much as I liked Devotion with Command, the trend of Modern towards hyper-linear deck construction means that focus is required, and I don't think Command wants to be run in the same shell that fully leverages Garruk WS or KotR.
I quite agree with you. Focusing on Garruk / Kiora does tend to fit in a more "combo-centric" build (as you really are going "1, 3-4, 7+" in your turn layout.) The Primal Command decks always felt better (this is just my opinion) to me in a more "toolbox" type approach (where you buy time to continue to play permanents that continue to put your opponent further and further behind until you win. Just different playstyles. Garruk and Kiora are very pro-active in nature.
P.S. Has anyone else tried out Blast Zone in a deck with Garruk/Kiora. I am seriously considering two copies (which I know may seem silly); but wanted to hear other's experiences with the land. It could literally just be that it worked out well thus far by coincidence...so I want to make sure I am getting a realistic picture of the card.
I was trying to give a plan b because only focusing on Genesis Wave is not going to make it. Lord Darkview, to answer your point, let me give you my opinion about the card Primal Command and the Devotion deck in general.
I know Primal Command is a bit slow. I disagree with the toolbox aspect. You mainly need witnesses, a 6 drop in case you cannot curve witness into Command the turn after, and probably a finisher like craterhoof. You have to rely on the loop. It's too expensive to be a toolbox card, it has to be a kill. The toolbox card is Summoner's Pact, but it has targets that are bad most of the time (underpowered or niche cards, plus echo), and Curdbros probably doesn't have enough slots to play it anyway... I played Green Devotion a lot and an important thing I learned is that Primal Command helps you to deal with so many random cards or diverse strategies, that could not be solved otherwise. How would you beat Tron or Ad Nauseam (the examples I stated last post) without Primal Command? Not by Pacting into something random anyway because if they have an answer for it you lose if they go off the turn after when you time walk yourself by paying the echo. Every time I played without Primal Command, I often lost to some bad random decks because I had no solution or nothing to do. It's probably a bit cluncky, not the best Magic card ever, but it's just the best or 2nd best (with coco) plan green devotion has generally. Oh, and it prevents you from flooding in your ramp deck.
So that was my justification about Primal Command. Hope it's good enough because there is generally nothing better in Green dev. By the way, I replayed Anthony's last list (the whole 75) and it's been terrible for me. Unless you predict super accurately the metagame (easy in modern), I don't see it because you are playing so many bad cards (most walkers and big dudes). First, you lose to every random strategy. Then the sideboard recognizes the fact that the maindeck is a slower combo deck than most other ones without consistent interaction (ok, maybe it wants a few more interaction postboard) since it's playing reactive cards like rest in peace, blood moon, etc, and even cards that shouldn't be there like 6 mana Flames of the Firebrand (Bolt or Path are legal), Worship to steal games where you know your deck is bad and you hope they don't have cards like Nature's Claim or whatever disruption they should bring in anyway postboard... That's my experience, and please, in advance, don't try to explain me that Pacting for Thrun, the Last Troll, is a powerful play against blue white control, or Acdic Slime against Tron, etc... Even Primeval Titan is too slow most of the time, and feels like a Colossal Dreadmaw when you pact for it because you won't be able to use Nykthos or Kessig the turn after due to the echo. Primal Command is just better than these cards most of the time and you don't have to play so many bad cards in your deck that will sit in your hand and won't do anything in wrong matchups, and won't always win in the correct ones (correct ones being 20% at most I think). Note that PC could also stand as a good amount of the sideboard slots in the list.
I wanted to justify myself because if the argument is that modern is hyperlinear, you're wrong playing green devotion, just play another deck. It's not the fastest combo deck, it's often cluncky, and it has no great interaction maindeck. It's slower(but slightly more resilient) than most other combo decks, that's it. It's wrong most of the time not to play Primal Command. It's a hedge against many strategies and a kill as well, even though it's a bit slow I agree. You can find it's bad, but replacing it with other cards in your devotion deck because the format is linear is going to be wrong 80% of the time because they will be individually weaker, and won't provide robust solutions as they are supposed to. If my opponent is playing Tron and I am on the draw, how do I survive except hoping they don't have Tron on 3 and having Primal Command on my turn 3? How do you deal with bridges, etc? The Acidic Slime solution is bad because it's too weak of a clock, and you may not draw another big card in your ramp deck to close the game (or maybe the wrong and underpowered big card that doesn't do anything). That's my theory at least. Maybe Primal Command is not great, but there isn't something more consistent to do anyway in your devotion deck on turn 3.
Despite all these arguments, I can see Primal Command not belonging to your deck Curdbros :), it's true that it may not be at its best here (maybe you can adapt the list for it?). Being all in on hoping your walker survives and playing Genesis Wave seems too narrow. I feel like the deck needs more cards to win, you only have 4 (plus Titan maybe, and possibly Garruk's overrun). Also, not playing Burning Tree in Green Devotion feels avoiding some of the best draws, though maybe you don't have enough double devotion at 2 or 3 to leverage it. And you still need a solution against other combo decks because you should be too slow most of the time on the draw.
I was trying to give a plan b because only focusing on Genesis Wave is not going to make it. Lord Darkview, to answer your point, let me give you my opinion about the card Primal Command and the Devotion deck in general.
I know Primal Command is a bit slow. I disagree with the toolbox aspect. You mainly need witnesses, a 6 drop in case you cannot curve witness into Command the turn after, and probably a finisher like craterhoof. You have to rely on the loop. It's too expensive to be a toolbox card, it has to be a kill. The toolbox card is Summoner's Pact, but it has targets that are bad most of the time (underpowered or niche cards, plus echo), and Curdbros probably doesn't have enough slots to play it anyway... I played Green Devotion a lot and an important thing I learned is that Primal Command helps you to deal with so many random cards or diverse strategies, that could not be solved otherwise. How would you beat Tron or Ad Nauseam (the examples I stated last post) without Primal Command? Not by Pacting into something random anyway because if they have an answer for it you lose if they go off the turn after when you time walk yourself by paying the echo. Every time I played without Primal Command, I often lost to some bad random decks because I had no solution or nothing to do. It's probably a bit cluncky, not the best Magic card ever, but it's just the best or 2nd best (with coco) plan green devotion has generally. Oh, and it prevents you from flooding in your ramp deck.
So that was my justification about Primal Command. Hope it's good enough because there is generally nothing better in Green dev. By the way, I replayed Anthony's last list (the whole 75) and it's been terrible for me. Unless you predict super accurately the metagame (easy in modern), I don't see it because you are playing so many bad cards (most walkers and big dudes). First, you lose to every random strategy. Then the sideboard recognizes the fact that the maindeck is a slower combo deck than most other ones without consistent interaction (ok, maybe it wants a few more interaction postboard) since it's playing reactive cards like rest in peace, blood moon, etc, and even cards that shouldn't be there like 6 mana Flames of the Firebrand (Bolt or Path are legal), Worship to steal games where you know your deck is bad and you hope they don't have cards like Nature's Claim or whatever disruption they should bring in anyway postboard... That's my experience, and please, in advance, don't try to explain me that Pacting for Thrun, the Last Troll, is a powerful play against blue white control, or Acdic Slime against Tron, etc... Even Primeval Titan is too slow most of the time, and feels like a Colossal Dreadmaw when you pact for it because you won't be able to use Nykthos or Kessig the turn after due to the echo. Primal Command is just better than these cards most of the time and you don't have to play so many bad cards in your deck that will sit in your hand and won't do anything in wrong matchups, and won't always win in the correct ones (correct ones being 20% at most I think). Note that PC could also stand as a good amount of the sideboard slots in the list.
I wanted to justify myself because if the argument is that modern is hyperlinear, you're wrong playing green devotion, just play another deck. It's not the fastest combo deck, it's often cluncky, and it has no great interaction maindeck. It's slower(but slightly more resilient) than most other combo decks, that's it. It's wrong most of the time not to play Primal Command. It's a hedge against many strategies and a kill as well, even though it's a bit slow I agree. You can find it's bad, but replacing it with other cards in your devotion deck because the format is linear is going to be wrong 80% of the time because they will be individually weaker, and won't provide robust solutions as they are supposed to. If my opponent is playing Tron and I am on the draw, how do I survive except hoping they don't have Tron on 3 and having Primal Command on my turn 3? How do you deal with bridges, etc? The Acidic Slime solution is bad because it's too weak of a clock, and you may not draw another big card in your ramp deck to close the game (or maybe the wrong and underpowered big card that doesn't do anything). That's my theory at least. Maybe Primal Command is not great, but there isn't something more consistent to do anyway in your devotion deck on turn 3.
Despite all these arguments, I can see Primal Command not belonging to your deck Curdbros :), it's true that it may not be at its best here (maybe you can adapt the list for it?). Being all in on hoping your walker survives and playing Genesis Wave seems too narrow. I feel like the deck needs more cards to win, you only have 4 (plus Titan maybe, and possibly Garruk's overrun). Also, not playing Burning Tree in Green Devotion feels avoiding some of the best draws, though maybe you don't have enough double devotion at 2 or 3 to leverage it. And you still need a solution against other combo decks because you should be too slow most of the time on the draw.
Thanks for your help Fulgence (I'm just going to call you Fulgence if that is ok as "NoNameAlreadyTaken" is just so long
I agree Primal Command is a great card...likely the best Green Devotion card there is. I just honestly thought it performs poorly in my list (which you also point out). I hope I didn't come off as arguing against Command. I had just found in my experience/history with my particular deck that it wasn't great (which may or may not be a problem for my deck ). In nearly all other builds (save maybe certain Tooth and Nail variants) it is the best game plan you can have.
If I didn’t play Walker Devotion; I would be playing a list similar to yours with Command and CoCo.
I’ve just always found Garruk Wildspeaker (and really just the ability to untap lands on the same turn the permanent enters play) to be incredibly powerful...and spent a lot of time just focusing on seeing if I could somehow “break” that aspect of Devotion (as it breaks a few game rules in terms of timing, mana, etc.) Also, I just really enjoyed that play style and wanted to try to make it viable.
I’ve played since “historical” Traditional Devotion was a thing. At that time it was standard to play Command, Wave, Garruk, PrimeVal Titan, Witness, and a Craterhoof in the same deck. I just always found the “stresses” of trying to play Garruk (and other walkers) and Selkie in the same deck as cards like Command and Witness to be somewhat “at odds” with each other...I know that sounds weird; but I tend to word things on how they felt in actual play...I felt like (a) Garruk was crazy powerful, (b) Primal Command was crazy powerful, and (c) Primeval Titan was crazy powerful; but (d) they didn’t all play perfectly together. I began to believe that A Devotion deck needed to either focus on Garruk and somewhat “proactive” play (where you overwhelm the opponent) or Command and somewhat “reactive” play (where you buy time to fill up the board. I didn’t see one as “better” than the other...just different (and excelling in different metas).
The Walker deck got a little shot in the arm recently with the addition of Kiora; which is what led me to play it again recently.
You make some great points about the Walker deck. While I have found the Walker deck to be surprisingly fast since the addition of Kiora...it is still 2/3 a turn slower than the faster combo decks in the format (i.e. not as fast). While it has a few different turn-3 lines; I have found it to be a "turn 4" deck on average (4.2 to be exact)...but the fastest combo decks are realistically turn 3.5 decks (unless you've seen Neoform Combo...which is a turn 2 deck now!). I have found the main "trade offs" being that the deck has been historically consistent and resilient (mainly due to all of the digging/drawing, etc.); and also coming from an angle that opponents don't have any truly great ways to shut it down.
Having said this, I will never stop believing there is room for improvement. The deck is not as fast as many of the best combo decks in the format (but it is much closer now) and it does not have the interaction needed in the main-deck to deal with them. While some of this is obviously the job of the sideboard...there still is potential for main board options. I also agree that a more definitive secondary win-condition was needed. I took some of your thoughts into consideration and went back to where I was going (if you look a few pages back) before I went the "Chord" route...with Karn, the Great Creator.
I know...but hear me out. I think we are in a uniquely good place to play the card. We can cast it on turn 2 with Arbor/Sprawl...We use Oath of Nissa so we can dig for it...we can get to 10 mana for same-turn locks...and we can use it as a "Wish board" for good interactive artifacts. I know it may seem hokey at first...but I wanted to try it and I was really making headway when it was spoiled. It may not be the "it" I'm looking for; but it certainly has potential.
Here is the list I’ve been playing the last few days:
* Obviously, the big change was the removal of the "Chord/Finale" pack and addition of Karn, the Great Creator
* I added back a third Birds of Paradise given that the London Mulligan may not happen.
* For a short period I played Finale of Devastation and it was much better than Chord (it did actually win a few games at X=10+...Karn just "feels" more appropriate to this build.
I know I've discussed Karn, the Great Creator in the past and was all hyped about it; but here is my thought process for trying it here:
The "Finale Package" was fine....but felt a little "off" of the main game plan of this deck that is more Walker-centric. I tended to mostly cast Chord or either Witness for Value or Acidic Slime...I removed the package and added another Slime to up the chances I hit it when I wanted it (as I draw/dig through the deck a lot already).
Karn can grab a Cloudstone Curio out of the board if need be (so I only have to play one copy main). Karn becomes less of a "secondary" win condition and really just a “main” win condition...
Karn and Curio work really well together and apart. There is actually is a lot you can do with Curio outside of the combo (it is not JUST a combo piece) so I have no issue with it in the main....but a second one is generally a dead draw...so Karn helps mitigate this.
Karn is just a great additional win-condition for a big mana deck. We can play a turn-2 Karn and a turn 3 "I win".
It allows me to get cards out of my board like Spellskite, Grafdiggers Cage, Explosives, Ballista, etc. Makes for more interaction while also being a 1-card win-condition. We have the luxury of both tutoring AND using the card in the same turn.
It allows me to finish the game quickly with infinite mana...just grab Walking Ballista from the board.
I know Karn is all the rage right now and is being crammed into a lot of decks...soo that could absolutely be skewing my thought process. I have WAY more testing to do with it before I can say it is better than other options. Thus far I have seen good results; but I've only played it approximately 20 matches (not hardly enough to make any definitive assertions. I feel with my playing Oath of Nissa, the ability to get to 4-mana on turn two, being a big-mana deck, etc....it actually is a really good fit here. It just "feels" natural to the deck.
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As always, I'd like to hear your thoughts. I will post a better board the second I get enough testing in. This is just where I've landed thus far. I generally HATE to post a deck-list without a board (as matches are played with 75 cards, not 60....and I tend to "muddle" a deck if I play with only the main) I will look for answers to everything in the main 60 when I shouldn't be...that is the point of a board!. Having said that, I do understand the point of needing a hair more interaction in the main. Let me know what you think. My main questions now are:
1. Is Karn a good fit?
2. If so, should I go down to 1 or zero copies of Kiora, Master of Depths
3. How many (if any) copies of Acidic Slime should I play main?
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
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P.S. I will be going back over the last few pages and discussing other's decks and ideas (including things like land destruction, Hydroid Krasis, Tamiyo in the "top of the deck" version, and very importantly Fulgence's Command/Company list. I want to hear all things Devotion and how each of you are tackling the new meta. Of course Horizons will likely change everything anyways But I just don't want you to feel that I only want to discuss my list. Don't get me wrong...I love discussing it and can't tell you how much I appreciate criticism, help, thoughts, and encouragement. But I get just as excited seeing what you are all doing with the archetype and when it puts up results!
i dont understand what karn does to enable a turn three win?? am i missing something?
If we are able to land a Karn turn 3 you can grab Mycosynth lattice from the sideboard making all activated abilities stop. this means land for opponents which means no mana can be made
Turn Two:
* Play Forest
* Cast Utopia Sprawl
* Cast Karn, the Great Creator
Because of the way Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl work together; you have access to four mana on turn 2.
Turn Three:
* Play Land
* Trigger Karn to tutor Lattice from your sideboard
* Use 6-mana available to cast Lattice.
I guess you don’t technically win. It’s more of a hard lock (they can’t tap mana, activate abilities, etc.). This deck does quite a bit at 6+ mana so even slowing them down a turn will often end the game (not to mention being able to grab other stuff and even Curio from the board).
There are other ways to do so as well. Many start with Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl...but not all.
Turn 3:
* Play Nykthos
* Cast Oath of Nissa
* Trigger Nykthos for X=5 (with enchanted land paying for Nykthos trigger).
* Cast Garruk (floating 1 mana)
* Trigger Garruk to untap both lands
* Re-Trigger Nykthos for X= 7 (8 total mana)
* Trigger Kiora to untap Nykthos
* Re-trigger to Net 5 more mana (13 total).
* Cast Karn, tutor for Lattice
* Cast Lattice floating 3 mana.
You could also cast a Genesis Wave for X=11 and you’ll probably hit enough to win the game).
Obviously the turn-3 hands require cards in a specific order (there are multiple ways to do it; but turn 3 is not the average goldfish).
The Karn + Lattice Combo is really prevalent right now because ta new...but I do think Walker Devotion may be a good fit. It could be a good fit in other Devotion decks...but I don’t have any experience with it in those shells.
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TESTING RESULTS / THOUGHTS FROM TONIGHT:
1. Karn has been extremely good. I may want to play a full play set.
The deck feels faster and more interactive. I find myself tutoring for interaction 35% of the time for hosers (Sorcerous Spyglass has been particularly strong)
We may literally be the best deck/core for Karn TGC. I’m seriously thinking we may actually be better with this card in particular than both Tron and Amulet. This is based on limited testing...but I’ve watched many Tron, Amulet, and Prison decks playing Karn TGC and it seems better in our deck (Devotion).
I had several turn 2 Karn’s (I used to think turn 2 Garruk was the most busted thing we could do...) and many more times where i could cast Karn and a 2-4 drop interactive artifact to effectively put the opponent too far behind (as if they can’t kill Karn you Combo the following turn).
I think Karn May truly be something Devotion should put some time in building with Karn. I thought it seemed like a strong option before when it was spoiled; and more testing has only made me believe this more. We have the benefits of:
1. Turn 2 Karn casting
2. Oath of Nissa
4. Relatively Consistent (at least we have the option for) 6+ mana on turn three and 10+ mana by turn four.
While we don’t have Ancient Stirrings (a deck could be built to use it but I don’t think it’s necessary); we still can get to Karn quickly.
2. Blast Zone came in handy...wondering if I should play some way to tutor for it.
3. Have a little room for brewing. A few slots still feel like they could be something else...Karn did change things a little.
4. Wild Growth would make the deck that much faster...but I’m not sure what I would remove.
how are you getting any use out of Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner?
In most builds i've been testing I've been finding the 3cc spot still needs to be overgrowth.
Maybe its just me but turn 4, hasn't consistently been 6/7 mana for me in many games without over growth.
lastly the card draw off Kiora, behemoth beckoner has been pretty low. 1 exta card doesn't make or break game, if the titan or Genesis hydra is landing.
I was brewing yesterday and I might have found something cool and quite powerful. This is a Genesis Wave combo deck that puts the whole deck on the table and attacks with haste. In addition to Genesis Wave, there is Hydroid Krasis for another big mana payoff. New Tamiyo is basically a better Eternal Witness because it can dig for Genesis Wave too. There are a lot of cycling creatures so they help dig for what is needed also. Nissa, Vital Force is for additional recursion or mana. At the end of the combo, you recur Finale of Devastation and give everything haste and +20/+20 or something. You can also put Krasis on the play with 0 counters because it doesn't die until the end of turn so part of the damage is flying and trample. Anyways, I have only been goldfishing this but it feels like there might be something so I wanted to share this idea.
Hey Curdbros. Thanks for your answer, I had been a bit direct in my last post, but I felt like I needed to precisely justify some of my thoughts, and my conviction (not against you) that some people may express sophisticated theories about modern but still be totally wrong... I took some time to develop to be clear and so that I won't have to do it again.
I may try the Karn version, but I have been losing a bit last weeks with my brews and don't have many ticks available I wonder if it's not suffering the same interaction problems that older version(< turn 3), since arbor elf / utopia sprawl plus 2 forest doesn't come that often to play Karn,etc.... Also, isn't cage a nonbo with Genesis Wave (not sure of the rule), although it seems good to have cheap cards like this to grab with Karn? About the 4 mana Kiora, I am not sure you need it since you already have Garruk and the other Kiora to combo, and her =2 is not that great. I honestly have no idea how Karn would do and if it wouldn't deprive yourself from other sideboard options.
Again, I encourage you to record a few videos if you have access to Mtgo.
I was brewing yesterday and I might have found something cool and quite powerful. This is a Genesis Wave combo deck that puts the whole deck on the table and attacks with haste. In addition to Genesis Wave, there is Hydroid Krasis for another big mana payoff. New Tamiyo is basically a better Eternal Witness because it can dig for Genesis Wave too. There are a lot of cycling creatures so they help dig for what is needed also. Nissa, Vital Force is for additional recursion or mana. At the end of the combo, you recur Finale of Devastation and give everything haste and +20/+20 or something. You can also put Krasis on the play with 0 counters because it doesn't die until the end of turn so part of the damage is flying and trample. Anyways, I have only been goldfishing this but it feels like there might be something so I wanted to share this idea.
What a cool list. Very focused. I have been wondering about Tamiyo...I will have to test it.
This is definitely a wave deck :). Very simple...ramp quick, play ahuge spell that creates card advantage...win the game. The board is super important in a deck like this (as there will be tough match ups) but it will go over the top against pretty much anything if given the time.
Thanks for posting this. I’ll try to playboy a bit so i can give more constructive feedback later.
how are you getting any use out of Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner?
In most builds i've been testing I've been finding the 3cc spot still needs to be overgrowth.
Maybe its just me but turn 4, hasn't consistently been 6/7 mana for me in many games without over growth.
lastly the card draw off Kiora, behemoth beckoner has been pretty low. 1 exta card doesn't make or break game, if the titan or Genesis hydra is landing.
For me, it is two fold. It is a combo piece and a ramp card. Overgrowth can potentially create more mana...that is certainly true. Kiora tends to be a little faster early (as she untaps immediately and generally you tap out for an early Overgrowth).
I don’t think Kiora necessarily works in all Devotion decks. She is just really strong in the Walker Combo Deck. She actually had a very similar play pattern to Overgrowth some games...
Kiora speeds up the Walker deck as well. I provided an example above where she leads to a tier 3 win. There are a few new T-3 and T-4!win lines due to her addition. It is only possible because of Kiora. I agree that Arbor Elf + Utopi Sprawl doesn’t always occur...so having another option to speed up the deck is nice.
I don’t know if she replaces Garruk in “Traditional” Devotion (if traditional is still a thing or if she has a similar effect to Tooth and Nail decks...replacing a 4-drop Garruk or Kiora MOD would be a trade off of speed for versatility. I think you are right that you would want some 4-power creatures to get some more value out of here in those cases. I only discussed her this far in the context of how it plays in my current deck.
I’ve changed my board a little (tried to make most of the changes in the list above) and added a fourth copy of Karn. Karn has actually become plan A of the deck as it is just that good. Kinds stinks in a way because I loved the Curio combo (it is absolutely still there as there will be a lot of hate showing up for Karn/Lattice since it is now in Prison, Amulet, AND Tron)...but I tend to win more now off Karn than I do off the infinite combo
1. It is less of a "Wave" deck now...so may not need two Eternal Witness, etc. (but she is good even without wave so its not a huge investment). Thought about adding a Tamiyo; but it is currently completely mono-green so I don't know if the blue splash is worth it just for that (and it may not be good enough anyways...)
2. Probably don't need a 4th copy of Kiora, but it does speed up the deck.
3. I would like to play a Genesis Hydra or two. It's good with Kiora (as at 4+ it draws a card even if it finds her as the way it works she comes into play first.). I think Genesis Wave is still superior; but it is close. Maybe with the removal of a 4th Kiora..
**Edit** If Force of Negation becomes a big enough deal in Modern I may switch to Hydra anyways. There are ways to utilize it well with Karn, Curio, and The untap walkers. Wave is better most of the time, but there are definite upsides to Hydra too.
4. Sraining the mana base quite a bit playing 2 copies of Blast Zone. I just really like having that removal when needed (and given the untap abilities of the walkers it can be used the same turn you play it). It may drop to one copy again...but I wanted to see what I could get away with.
5. Obviously, the board is still under construction...
I will provide the new list and testing results/thoughts tomorrow.
With the uptick in planeswalkers in some of the builds I'm wondering if Kamahl's Druidic Vow is viable in those lists.
compared to genesis wave you are getting all the lands you hit. But your not getting the mana ramp and non legendary stuff you hit. Which most of the planeswalker lists revolve around hitting walkers, so the legendary clause of Vow doesn't seem that restrictive.
how are you getting any use out of Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner?
In most builds i've been testing I've been finding the 3cc spot still needs to be overgrowth.
Maybe its just me but turn 4, hasn't consistently been 6/7 mana for me in many games without over growth.
lastly the card draw off Kiora, behemoth beckoner has been pretty low. 1 exta card doesn't make or break game, if the titan or Genesis hydra is landing.
For me, it is two fold. It is a combo piece and a ramp card. Overgrowth can potentially create more mana...that is certainly true. Kiora tends to be a little faster early (as she untaps immediately and generally you tap out for an early Overgrowth).
I don’t think Kiora necessarily works in all Devotion decks. She is just really strong in the Walker Combo Deck. She actually had a very similar play pattern to Overgrowth some games...
Kiora speeds up the Walker deck as well. I provided an example above where she leads to a tier 3 win. There are a few new T-3 and T-4!win lines due to her addition. It is only possible because of Kiora. I agree that Arbor Elf + Utopi Sprawl doesn’t always occur...so having another option to speed up the deck is nice.
I don’t know if she replaces Garruk in “Traditional” Devotion (if traditional is still a thing or if she has a similar effect to Tooth and Nail decks...replacing a 4-drop Garruk or Kiora MOD would be a trade off of speed for versatility. I think you are right that you would want some 4-power creatures to get some more value out of here in those cases. I only discussed her this far in the context of how it plays in my current deck.
I'm still back and forth on her. hitting a 3 mana play makes a huge difference. I feel like it need to be overgrowth,
that gets even crazier if you have extra untap effects, beyond garruk or arbor elf. But my point is they are for not without a sprawl or something to get extra mana per tap.
It might see odd to point out but even Weirding Wood feels viable in the 3cc spot because of the investigate token. While not as abusive as 3 mana per tap, it gives a card draw. Overgrowth is always the target of Cryptic bounce land or ghost quarter.
I like Force of Vigor. Could absolutely see board play for us. I will be trying a few copies in the board to see if the “free” is worth the card disadvantage.
Just seems like a great way to get around Chalices, early Mox Opal decks, etc. without needing to spend mana.
It should be nice if you try Magic Online. Maybe you can not buy the fetches first if you are not sure how you like the program and get the deck for about 20 ticks (that's an estimation, I don't precisely know), then if you enjoy it buy them and maybe some other expensive sideboard slots you need. Eager to see a video of your deck. As for the clicking, you probably want to learn the hotkeys, mainly f6, and have stops only at useful steps (upkeep and draw not necessary, so is beginning of your combat, their mainphase, etc... if you need them once in a game, because let's say you want to kill their rabblemaster before their begin combat, or ghost quarter the tron on their draw, you can manually put them and remove them right after).
Given that I had bad results with the Pact devotion deck that I have been building and trying, I played with Anthony's most recent lists I found to understand the precise logic. The results were not convincing so I probably won't stick with these versions.
However the issue with clicking is real, sadly. Killing 5 lands with Acidic Slime took me about 8 minutes. It's possible that you just want to accomplish less efficient combo that are easier to do just because it saves you time online, as maybe you will want to give up with the deck.
I obviously have to practice a bit more with the deck to really know, because again, i believe you spent a lot of time and it's really precise. One change I immediatly made though was adding another Breeding Pool because I feel like you may not want to name blue in the first few times with utopia sprawl and people play a lot of field of ruins and ghost quarters, etc...
Also, to save time, maybe you want to have a few more 2 3 mana double devotion cards (or even 1 more Birds). By the way, the kill should probably be Walking Ballista but it's too much clicking. The only card I did not have was Blast Zone and I put a Gavony, which was helpful at pumping my bees and that I could activate several times with the untap ability. I don't really get the chord of calling since it's expensive and i believe you already need too many cards together to add another overcosted tutor. Finale of Devastation could be a fast way to win if you search for Hornet Queen adn a possible 2 mana play.
I am not in love with the Elvish Visionaries so far, I don't think they do enough. I'd probably replace them with a mix of mana (like Burning Tree, maybe try Lotus Cobra and see if in combination with Witness, the first wave can be followed by a 2nd in the same turn, though maybe the 3 mana Kiora is a better cobra) and cards that win if I don't find Genesis Wave, although they probably should be creatures because of Kiora minus.
You probably played 500 more games with the deck and you may wonder why the h... am I giving you thoughts on a 1 hour basis. But anyway, I'll keep playing with it because it's quite fun.
Not at all...every tip/thought is more than welcome! Thank you for such great points and suggestions on the deck. I can’t claim to know everything about the deck and hope the community can help make it even better. The new Kiora reinvigorated it; but there I’m sure there’s room for improvement. You make great points.
The Chord “package” can really be just about anything (there are 3-4 “flex slots” I think still can be worked within the deck.). Finale of Devastation is actually kind of an interesting idea as it would be a way to give everyone haste while functioning very much like Chord (as this deck tends to play at sorcery speed anyways).
You are extremely right about clicks. It is the biggest hit against the deck. The deck is much faster than most people realize looking at the list; and it is extremely consistent/resilient due to all of the card draw/digging...but it is tough to play up front (which can turn people off). I’m super impressed with how deep your understanding of the deck is so quickly.
You are right in finding another win-con (like banefire, etc.) that can just end the game quickly. I have used multiple different options in the past. I used:
1. Xenagos - the first deck used Xenagos to make infinite 2/2 haste creatures.
2. Karn Liberated to remove all permanents.
I’ve also used Walking Ballista, Purphoros for etb triggers, Banefire, etc. There are a million things you can do. I tend to prefer those that also function well in the deck without the combo. Waking Ballista is a good option. Not great off a wave; but that’s not a deal breaker (as Oath and Kiora both dig for creatures and Witness can bring it back if it hits the yard).
It’s my fault for not having a better option in there. When I play for extended periods in paper; I always end up with a super efficient version (removing any non-needed pieces from the main)...but you are right that if it got popular online it may need another card to finish the game quickly. It’s never fun for an opponent to lose for ten minutes straight having nothing they can do about it. It’s kinda like The current standard Reclamation/Turns deck but instead of taking multiple turns you take one very long turn
The Elvish Visionary’s are in there for a few reasons:
1. They act as a body that replaces itself to help protect walkers while also digging to the combo pieces.
2. They “loop” with any creature (or even two copies) to draw cards with Cloudstone Curio.
3. 2-drops tend to play smoothly in this deck. A lot of turn 2’s I tend to play a 1-drop and a 2-drop (visionary) rather than a 3-drop. Also, often times Kiora will untap to 2-mana rather than 3.
Having said this, I think (a) you could likely play 3 copies without noticing any real difference and (b) if you don’t like the card you may be able to get away without playing it depending on what you replaced it with (Selkie, Courser, Abundant Growth, etc.) For me it is just kind of a “glue” card that smooths/“tightens” the deck (if that makes any sense).
Initially I looked at playing more Abundant Growth in that spot (as it is more efficient, and it makes for “Curio loops” with Utopia Sprawl and/or Oath of Nissa where you draw/dig over and over for only 1-mana each)... but I worried that it would make the deck more vulnerable to land removal, could make the walkers easier to attack early, etc.
I say replace them and try it out. It will either show us they are great or give us a better option (win win!). I’m really excited to hear more about your experiences with the deck! I will try out some of your suggestions too.
This is the Curio Combo I played after a few matches.
21 lands including a Gavony (I have not tried Blast Zone)
4 Arbor Elf, 4 Utopia S., 3 Birds, 4 Oath of Nissa
4 Burning Tree Emissary
3 Eternal Witness, 2 Kiora Behemoth, 1 Cloudstone Curio
3 Garruk, 1 Kiora Master
3 Primal Command, 1 Acidic Slime
1 Hornet Queen
4 Genesis Wave, 1 Finale of Devastation (no Dryad Arbor with only one Finale)
I tried to make the mana producers cheaper in general because I believe you are often forced to play the first Genesis Wave for x equals 3 or 4 and cheap mana maybe helps you to play it for 1 more and you also have a slight more chance with more witnesses and bte to redo it in the same turn (and get about the same number of mana or even more if you Genesis Wave again, especially with Bte). The odds of this scenario occuring may not be that much more significant in practice. I lowered the planeswalkers/ curio count because I feel that the odds to keep going after Genesis Wave are about the same as I said, and the Curio aspect should be more to perform a strict combo, and it's so bad having it in your hand. At some point you bring back Finale from your graveyard with witness and you probably don't even need Hornet Queen.
I have been losing to other combo decks like tron or Ad Nauseam because I could not interact on turn 3. Either i did not have Genesis Wave or I could not produce a relevant one. So I added Primal Commands as a way to interact and another engine for the deck. Maybe you have an idea about another plan b... But having interaction is important especially on the draw, and as for me, I am not in love with most big creatures. I removed Titan which I found was not necessary although maybe searching for nykthos and untapping it in the same turn is necessary a good amount of the time. Maybe Hornet Queen should be 4th Primal Command or Witness, maybe it's good to have access to a big dude to defend the board...
I find that the coco version probably has access to more solutions regarding these matchups, like fulminator mage, maindeck reclamation sage, and access to cheaper ways to combo. Are you planning to make a video to prove me that I am wrong ?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I quite agree with you. Focusing on Garruk / Kiora does tend to fit in a more "combo-centric" build (as you really are going "1, 3-4, 7+" in your turn layout.) The Primal Command decks always felt better (this is just my opinion) to me in a more "toolbox" type approach (where you buy time to continue to play permanents that continue to put your opponent further and further behind until you win. Just different playstyles. Garruk and Kiora are very pro-active in nature.
P.S. Has anyone else tried out Blast Zone in a deck with Garruk/Kiora. I am seriously considering two copies (which I know may seem silly); but wanted to hear other's experiences with the land. It could literally just be that it worked out well thus far by coincidence...so I want to make sure I am getting a realistic picture of the card.
I know Primal Command is a bit slow. I disagree with the toolbox aspect. You mainly need witnesses, a 6 drop in case you cannot curve witness into Command the turn after, and probably a finisher like craterhoof. You have to rely on the loop. It's too expensive to be a toolbox card, it has to be a kill. The toolbox card is Summoner's Pact, but it has targets that are bad most of the time (underpowered or niche cards, plus echo), and Curdbros probably doesn't have enough slots to play it anyway... I played Green Devotion a lot and an important thing I learned is that Primal Command helps you to deal with so many random cards or diverse strategies, that could not be solved otherwise. How would you beat Tron or Ad Nauseam (the examples I stated last post) without Primal Command? Not by Pacting into something random anyway because if they have an answer for it you lose if they go off the turn after when you time walk yourself by paying the echo. Every time I played without Primal Command, I often lost to some bad random decks because I had no solution or nothing to do. It's probably a bit cluncky, not the best Magic card ever, but it's just the best or 2nd best (with coco) plan green devotion has generally. Oh, and it prevents you from flooding in your ramp deck.
So that was my justification about Primal Command. Hope it's good enough because there is generally nothing better in Green dev. By the way, I replayed Anthony's last list (the whole 75) and it's been terrible for me. Unless you predict super accurately the metagame (easy in modern), I don't see it because you are playing so many bad cards (most walkers and big dudes). First, you lose to every random strategy. Then the sideboard recognizes the fact that the maindeck is a slower combo deck than most other ones without consistent interaction (ok, maybe it wants a few more interaction postboard) since it's playing reactive cards like rest in peace, blood moon, etc, and even cards that shouldn't be there like 6 mana Flames of the Firebrand (Bolt or Path are legal), Worship to steal games where you know your deck is bad and you hope they don't have cards like Nature's Claim or whatever disruption they should bring in anyway postboard... That's my experience, and please, in advance, don't try to explain me that Pacting for Thrun, the Last Troll, is a powerful play against blue white control, or Acdic Slime against Tron, etc... Even Primeval Titan is too slow most of the time, and feels like a Colossal Dreadmaw when you pact for it because you won't be able to use Nykthos or Kessig the turn after due to the echo. Primal Command is just better than these cards most of the time and you don't have to play so many bad cards in your deck that will sit in your hand and won't do anything in wrong matchups, and won't always win in the correct ones (correct ones being 20% at most I think). Note that PC could also stand as a good amount of the sideboard slots in the list.
I wanted to justify myself because if the argument is that modern is hyperlinear, you're wrong playing green devotion, just play another deck. It's not the fastest combo deck, it's often cluncky, and it has no great interaction maindeck. It's slower(but slightly more resilient) than most other combo decks, that's it. It's wrong most of the time not to play Primal Command. It's a hedge against many strategies and a kill as well, even though it's a bit slow I agree. You can find it's bad, but replacing it with other cards in your devotion deck because the format is linear is going to be wrong 80% of the time because they will be individually weaker, and won't provide robust solutions as they are supposed to. If my opponent is playing Tron and I am on the draw, how do I survive except hoping they don't have Tron on 3 and having Primal Command on my turn 3? How do you deal with bridges, etc? The Acidic Slime solution is bad because it's too weak of a clock, and you may not draw another big card in your ramp deck to close the game (or maybe the wrong and underpowered big card that doesn't do anything). That's my theory at least. Maybe Primal Command is not great, but there isn't something more consistent to do anyway in your devotion deck on turn 3.
Despite all these arguments, I can see Primal Command not belonging to your deck Curdbros :), it's true that it may not be at its best here (maybe you can adapt the list for it?). Being all in on hoping your walker survives and playing Genesis Wave seems too narrow. I feel like the deck needs more cards to win, you only have 4 (plus Titan maybe, and possibly Garruk's overrun). Also, not playing Burning Tree in Green Devotion feels avoiding some of the best draws, though maybe you don't have enough double devotion at 2 or 3 to leverage it. And you still need a solution against other combo decks because you should be too slow most of the time on the draw.
Thanks for your help Fulgence (I'm just going to call you Fulgence if that is ok as "NoNameAlreadyTaken" is just so long
I agree Primal Command is a great card...likely the best Green Devotion card there is. I just honestly thought it performs poorly in my list (which you also point out). I hope I didn't come off as arguing against Command. I had just found in my experience/history with my particular deck that it wasn't great (which may or may not be a problem for my deck
If I didn’t play Walker Devotion; I would be playing a list similar to yours with Command and CoCo.
I’ve just always found Garruk Wildspeaker (and really just the ability to untap lands on the same turn the permanent enters play) to be incredibly powerful...and spent a lot of time just focusing on seeing if I could somehow “break” that aspect of Devotion (as it breaks a few game rules in terms of timing, mana, etc.) Also, I just really enjoyed that play style and wanted to try to make it viable.
I’ve played since “historical” Traditional Devotion was a thing. At that time it was standard to play Command, Wave, Garruk, PrimeVal Titan, Witness, and a Craterhoof in the same deck. I just always found the “stresses” of trying to play Garruk (and other walkers) and Selkie in the same deck as cards like Command and Witness to be somewhat “at odds” with each other...I know that sounds weird; but I tend to word things on how they felt in actual play...I felt like (a) Garruk was crazy powerful, (b) Primal Command was crazy powerful, and (c) Primeval Titan was crazy powerful; but (d) they didn’t all play perfectly together. I began to believe that A Devotion deck needed to either focus on Garruk and somewhat “proactive” play (where you overwhelm the opponent) or Command and somewhat “reactive” play (where you buy time to fill up the board. I didn’t see one as “better” than the other...just different (and excelling in different metas).
The Walker deck got a little shot in the arm recently with the addition of Kiora; which is what led me to play it again recently.
You make some great points about the Walker deck. While I have found the Walker deck to be surprisingly fast since the addition of Kiora...it is still 2/3 a turn slower than the faster combo decks in the format (i.e. not as fast). While it has a few different turn-3 lines; I have found it to be a "turn 4" deck on average (4.2 to be exact)...but the fastest combo decks are realistically turn 3.5 decks (unless you've seen Neoform Combo...which is a turn 2 deck now!). I have found the main "trade offs" being that the deck has been historically consistent and resilient (mainly due to all of the digging/drawing, etc.); and also coming from an angle that opponents don't have any truly great ways to shut it down.
Having said this, I will never stop believing there is room for improvement. The deck is not as fast as many of the best combo decks in the format (but it is much closer now) and it does not have the interaction needed in the main-deck to deal with them. While some of this is obviously the job of the sideboard...there still is potential for main board options. I also agree that a more definitive secondary win-condition was needed. I took some of your thoughts into consideration and went back to where I was going (if you look a few pages back) before I went the "Chord" route...with Karn, the Great Creator.
I know...but hear me out. I think we are in a uniquely good place to play the card. We can cast it on turn 2 with Arbor/Sprawl...We use Oath of Nissa so we can dig for it...we can get to 10 mana for same-turn locks...and we can use it as a "Wish board" for good interactive artifacts. I know it may seem hokey at first...but I wanted to try it and I was really making headway when it was spoiled. It may not be the "it" I'm looking for; but it certainly has potential.
Here is the list I’ve been playing the last few days:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Acidic Slime
Enchantment/Artifact (10)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
1x Abundant Growth
1x Cloudstone Curio
3x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Kiora, Master of the Depths
3x Karn, the Great Creator
Instant/Sorcery (4)
4x Genesis Wave
Lands (21)
8x Green Fetch
6x Forest
2x Breeding Pool
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Blast Zone
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Walking Ballista
1x Tormods Crypt
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spellskite
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Flex
* Obviously, the big change was the removal of the "Chord/Finale" pack and addition of Karn, the Great Creator
* I added back a third Birds of Paradise given that the London Mulligan may not happen.
* For a short period I played Finale of Devastation and it was much better than Chord (it did actually win a few games at X=10+...Karn just "feels" more appropriate to this build.
I know I've discussed Karn, the Great Creator in the past and was all hyped about it; but here is my thought process for trying it here:
I know Karn is all the rage right now and is being crammed into a lot of decks...soo that could absolutely be skewing my thought process. I have WAY more testing to do with it before I can say it is better than other options. Thus far I have seen good results; but I've only played it approximately 20 matches (not hardly enough to make any definitive assertions. I feel with my playing Oath of Nissa, the ability to get to 4-mana on turn two, being a big-mana deck, etc....it actually is a really good fit here. It just "feels" natural to the deck.
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As always, I'd like to hear your thoughts. I will post a better board the second I get enough testing in. This is just where I've landed thus far. I generally HATE to post a deck-list without a board (as matches are played with 75 cards, not 60....and I tend to "muddle" a deck if I play with only the main) I will look for answers to everything in the main 60 when I shouldn't be...that is the point of a board!. Having said that, I do understand the point of needing a hair more interaction in the main. Let me know what you think. My main questions now are:
1. Is Karn a good fit?
2. If so, should I go down to 1 or zero copies of Kiora, Master of Depths
3. How many (if any) copies of Acidic Slime should I play main?
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
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P.S. I will be going back over the last few pages and discussing other's decks and ideas (including things like land destruction, Hydroid Krasis, Tamiyo in the "top of the deck" version, and very importantly Fulgence's Command/Company list. I want to hear all things Devotion and how each of you are tackling the new meta. Of course Horizons will likely change everything anyways
If we are able to land a Karn turn 3 you can grab Mycosynth lattice from the sideboard making all activated abilities stop. this means land for opponents which means no mana can be made
Karn, the Great Creator and Mycosynth Lattice are a 1-card combo that can shut off the opponent’s mana. Our deck can play this combo by turn 3.
Example:
Turn 1:
* Play Forest
* Cast Arbor Elf
Turn Two:
* Play Forest
* Cast Utopia Sprawl
* Cast Karn, the Great Creator
Because of the way Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl work together; you have access to four mana on turn 2.
Turn Three:
* Play Land
* Trigger Karn to tutor Lattice from your sideboard
* Use 6-mana available to cast Lattice.
I guess you don’t technically win. It’s more of a hard lock (they can’t tap mana, activate abilities, etc.). This deck does quite a bit at 6+ mana so even slowing them down a turn will often end the game (not to mention being able to grab other stuff and even Curio from the board).
There are other ways to do so as well. Many start with Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl...but not all.
One example without them is:
Turn 1:
* Play Forest
* Cast Birds of Paradise
Turn 2:
* Play Forest
* Cast Utopia Sprawl
* Cast Kiora Behemoth Beckoner
* Trigger Kiora
* Cast Elvish Visionary
Turn 3:
* Play Nykthos
* Cast Oath of Nissa
* Trigger Nykthos for X=5 (with enchanted land paying for Nykthos trigger).
* Cast Garruk (floating 1 mana)
* Trigger Garruk to untap both lands
* Re-Trigger Nykthos for X= 7 (8 total mana)
* Trigger Kiora to untap Nykthos
* Re-trigger to Net 5 more mana (13 total).
* Cast Karn, tutor for Lattice
* Cast Lattice floating 3 mana.
You could also cast a Genesis Wave for X=11 and you’ll probably hit enough to win the game).
Obviously the turn-3 hands require cards in a specific order (there are multiple ways to do it; but turn 3 is not the average goldfish).
The Karn + Lattice Combo is really prevalent right now because ta new...but I do think Walker Devotion may be a good fit. It could be a good fit in other Devotion decks...but I don’t have any experience with it in those shells.
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TESTING RESULTS / THOUGHTS FROM TONIGHT:
1. Karn has been extremely good. I may want to play a full play set.
The deck feels faster and more interactive. I find myself tutoring for interaction 35% of the time for hosers (Sorcerous Spyglass has been particularly strong)
We may literally be the best deck/core for Karn TGC. I’m seriously thinking we may actually be better with this card in particular than both Tron and Amulet. This is based on limited testing...but I’ve watched many Tron, Amulet, and Prison decks playing Karn TGC and it seems better in our deck (Devotion).
I had several turn 2 Karn’s (I used to think turn 2 Garruk was the most busted thing we could do...) and many more times where i could cast Karn and a 2-4 drop interactive artifact to effectively put the opponent too far behind (as if they can’t kill Karn you Combo the following turn).
I think Karn May truly be something Devotion should put some time in building with Karn. I thought it seemed like a strong option before when it was spoiled; and more testing has only made me believe this more. We have the benefits of:
1. Turn 2 Karn casting
2. Oath of Nissa
4. Relatively Consistent (at least we have the option for) 6+ mana on turn three and 10+ mana by turn four.
While we don’t have Ancient Stirrings (a deck could be built to use it but I don’t think it’s necessary); we still can get to Karn quickly.
2. Blast Zone came in handy...wondering if I should play some way to tutor for it.
3. Have a little room for brewing. A few slots still feel like they could be something else...Karn did change things a little.
4. Wild Growth would make the deck that much faster...but I’m not sure what I would remove.
In most builds i've been testing I've been finding the 3cc spot still needs to be overgrowth.
Maybe its just me but turn 4, hasn't consistently been 6/7 mana for me in many games without over growth.
lastly the card draw off Kiora, behemoth beckoner has been pretty low. 1 exta card doesn't make or break game, if the titan or Genesis hydra is landing.
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Overgrowth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Tamiyo, Collector of Tales
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Genesis Wave
4 Hydroid Krasis
1 Finale of Devastation
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Breeding Pool
6 Forest
Here is the deck in Tappedout if someone wants to try it. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/simic-wave-2/?cb=1558167097
I may try the Karn version, but I have been losing a bit last weeks with my brews and don't have many ticks available
Again, I encourage you to record a few videos if you have access to Mtgo.
What a cool list. Very focused. I have been wondering about Tamiyo...I will have to test it.
This is definitely a wave deck :). Very simple...ramp quick, play ahuge spell that creates card advantage...win the game. The board is super important in a deck like this (as there will be tough match ups) but it will go over the top against pretty much anything if given the time.
Thanks for posting this. I’ll try to playboy a bit so i can give more constructive feedback later.
For me, it is two fold. It is a combo piece and a ramp card. Overgrowth can potentially create more mana...that is certainly true. Kiora tends to be a little faster early (as she untaps immediately and generally you tap out for an early Overgrowth).
I don’t think Kiora necessarily works in all Devotion decks. She is just really strong in the Walker Combo Deck. She actually had a very similar play pattern to Overgrowth some games...
Kiora speeds up the Walker deck as well. I provided an example above where she leads to a tier 3 win. There are a few new T-3 and T-4!win lines due to her addition. It is only possible because of Kiora. I agree that Arbor Elf + Utopi Sprawl doesn’t always occur...so having another option to speed up the deck is nice.
I don’t know if she replaces Garruk in “Traditional” Devotion (if traditional is still a thing or if she has a similar effect to Tooth and Nail decks...replacing a 4-drop Garruk or Kiora MOD would be a trade off of speed for versatility. I think you are right that you would want some 4-power creatures to get some more value out of here in those cases. I only discussed her this far in the context of how it plays in my current deck.
Current List:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Acidic Slime
Enchantment/Artifact (10)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
1x Abundant Growth
1x Cloudstone Curio
4x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Karn, the Great Creator
Instant/Sorcery (4)
4x Genesis Wave
Lands (21)
6x Green Fetch
8x Forest
2x Waterlogged Grove
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Blast Zone
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Walking Ballista
1x Tormods Crypt
1x Trinisphere
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spellskite
3x Flex
Current Random Thoughts:
1. It is less of a "Wave" deck now...so may not need two Eternal Witness, etc. (but she is good even without wave so its not a huge investment). Thought about adding a Tamiyo; but it is currently completely mono-green so I don't know if the blue splash is worth it just for that (and it may not be good enough anyways...)
2. Probably don't need a 4th copy of Kiora, but it does speed up the deck.
3. I would like to play a Genesis Hydra or two. It's good with Kiora (as at 4+ it draws a card even if it finds her as the way it works she comes into play first.). I think Genesis Wave is still superior; but it is close. Maybe with the removal of a 4th Kiora..
**Edit** If Force of Negation becomes a big enough deal in Modern I may switch to Hydra anyways. There are ways to utilize it well with Karn, Curio, and The untap walkers. Wave is better most of the time, but there are definite upsides to Hydra too.
4. Sraining the mana base quite a bit playing 2 copies of Blast Zone. I just really like having that removal when needed (and given the untap abilities of the walkers it can be used the same turn you play it). It may drop to one copy again...but I wanted to see what I could get away with.
5. Obviously, the board is still under construction...
I will provide the new list and testing results/thoughts tomorrow.
compared to genesis wave you are getting all the lands you hit. But your not getting the mana ramp and non legendary stuff you hit. Which most of the planeswalker lists revolve around hitting walkers, so the legendary clause of Vow doesn't seem that restrictive.
plus your 1 less green with vow, than genesis.
I'm still back and forth on her. hitting a 3 mana play makes a huge difference. I feel like it need to be overgrowth,
that gets even crazier if you have extra untap effects, beyond garruk or arbor elf. But my point is they are for not without a sprawl or something to get extra mana per tap.
It might see odd to point out but even Weirding Wood feels viable in the 3cc spot because of the investigate token. While not as abusive as 3 mana per tap, it gives a card draw. Overgrowth is always the target of Cryptic bounce land or ghost quarter.
Just seems like a great way to get around Chalices, early Mox Opal decks, etc. without needing to spend mana.