Guys... Broken Bond is going to be huge for us. With a Nykthos in play, and another in hand or in the graveyard, we combo this with Oath of Nissa to get 2-3 Nykthos activations in a turn. Even more with a Garruk in play.
(Nykthos in hand and play) Activate Nykthos > Oath > Play Nykthos for turn > Sac first Nykthos > activate second nythos > Broken bond targeting Oath > move sac'd Nykthos back to the field > sacrifice second Nykthos > activate third Nykthos
Works the same with a Nykthos in the graveyard and in play, but you just get 1 less activation out of the deal. I name this combo:
The Oath of Broken Nythos.
Because we have finally broken Nykthos.
Even if the combo turns out to be too situational to mainboard the cards for, the new card is still probably the best artifact/enchantment hate that Green ramp decks can get, and especially Nykthos builds.
Nooo I totally misread the card and just went off convinced that it said something else...:frown:
I'm just gonna leave my previous post up as a monument to "read the card".
It is definitely still one of the better artifact/enchantment hate cards available, and in decks that run high numbers of Oath, it can just be a ramp spell too.
Probably more sideboard material though, debatable if its actually better than Reclamation Sage though (tutorable).
Finishing up Primer now. Will be up this evening! I will send a post when it is up. If I can't get the formatting right on these last images; I will still post it (and just fix it later).
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Karn, Scion of Urza has been suprisingly strong. In play it is pretty insurmountable. I REALLY like where the Walker Combo deck is at. It finally feels like I can hit the combo extremely consistently; but most importantly that all of the peices work together WITHOUT the combo (i.e. the deck can easily win without it). That was always one of the weaknesses in the deck in the past that no longer exists. My favorite part is what an opponent last night said...he said, "the thing is, I don't know what to remove...I don't know what is important to deal with and what not to worry about..." With creatures, walkers, artifacts, enchantments, and important lands...the opponent is kind of left deciding what to remove and also whether they should try to attack me or the walkers (if they can profitably attack). I would like to get a few more artifacts in the deck (although my board is heavily in artifacts) to take advantage of Karn SOU's -2 ability...but that can come later. I'm really liking it. I'm down to just two Devotion decks (one being the Walker Combo deck) and feel like i have solidified what I think works best for me in Devotion.
Nooo I totally misread the card and just went off convinced that it said something else...:frown:
I'm just gonna leave my previous post up as a monument to "read the card".
It is definitely still one of the better artifact/enchantment hate cards available, and in decks that run high numbers of Oath, it can just be a ramp spell too.
Probably more sideboard material though, debatable if its actually better than Reclamation Sage though (tutorable).
I have done that in the past. I had a heart attaack when I first read Maulfist Revolutionary...it took me like three times to read it (as I was certain it couldn't be what I thought for the cost...).
But you are right that it is a really cool card. Enchantment/artifact removal with an upside...nice. I do have hate i prefer a little more; but thus definitely has its uses for sure.
The meta is really becoming better and better for us. The “fairer” it gets; the stronger we beccome. I truly believe Damping Sphere is good for us (as our biggest weakness has always been linear fast combo). Granted, it’s not great for us (hurts my Walker Combo a lot) BUT we have the easiest time utilizing artifact hate that is very natural to our deck. I’m really excited for the coming Modern Meta
Playtested a casual game against a Jeskai deck with a win con based on flipping a 3/2 flyer off cantrip spells and putting Geist on the board to swing as finisher while protecting both with spot removal and counterspells.
Prowling Serpopard was a bomb in the match-up. Even if the opponent nuked it with Path or Lightning Bolt, staying on the board with at least 5 to 6 devotion and at least one swing from it in a race turned into a clock the opponents coult not race. You need Aspect of Hydra to win of course. You can now maindeck Deus of Calamity for better devotion and the damn thing will stick with one Serpopard in play. Countermagic is a little *****ty if you play with a full set of Serpopard plus one Gaea's Revenge upon sideboarding, but Serpopard swings hard early game that one unchecked swing with Aspect of Hydra makes it a one turn game.
I've found out that in those games when the opponent does Spreading Seas on your Nykthos, the only reason for playing Aspect of Hydra is to have your dumb weenie horde still be of any value with at least one unblocked creature and the pump spell in hand.
Using the Primalcrux build and not having any Planeswalkers is okay as long as you can plop down fatties by turn 3 or 4 and keep them coming. A good board that sneaks in even just one attacker, pumped by Aspect of Hydra gets them down to 5, this with Prowling Serpopard as the first swing and the opponent trusting they can outrace your damage output because they have spot removal. Replacing the explore creature, you can actually get a ramp elf that fetches a basic land, that's 3 to cast and it thins out the deck of one Forest and keeps you a body blocker in the battlefield. Ywo land fetch elves are my picks plus two to three Prowling Serpopards as early beats that set up a Primalcrux or a Deus of Calamity that cannot be countered. Those fatties don't have to last until next turn, you swing at them with an open Serpopard and if they don't block the Devotion pump from the fattie via ASpect of Hydra is lethal.
Aspect of Hydra makes a nuked Nukthos in your battlefield irrelevant, as the opponent expends mana for spreading seas but opens itself up to a swing and a free Aspect of Hydra pump for devotion almost lethal if not lethal.
The meta is really becoming better and better for us. The “fairer” it gets; the stronger we beccome. I truly believe Damping Sphere is good for us (as our biggest weakness has always been linear fast combo). Granted, it’s not great for us (hurts my Walker Combo a lot) BUT we have the easiest time utilizing artifact hate that is very natural to our deck. I’m really excited for the coming Modern Meta
This all seems correct. I haven't brewed with the deck in a while. It might be time to again.
So I noticed Rien Vanraepenbusch's list made it to the Top 8 in GP Lyon. We didn't really discuss it much that I could find references to in the thread, and I think that going forward, our best bet to becoming competitive is continually developing and updating our core list of includes/meta includes/exludes based on recent tournament results. Here's his list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18503&d=315075&f=MO
Unfortunately, even though he made top 8, he's not in any of the Feature Matches in the MtG YouTube channel for the event :/ bummed me out a bit, I really wanted to see how he piloted his list with such results.
The other recent tournament performer in the archetype I believe is a user here, Anthony Skrzypczak. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18090&d=312273&f=MO
His list seems a bit faster, opting for Pacts over P.Command, and the creature curve is weighted a bit higher. I can't help but wonder though, whether the Arbor Colossus was really just an input error, considering it'd be right next to Arbor Elf in any alphabetical list, and seems to be a bit of a strange 4-of.
I've been thinking a lot of ways to optimize, and I think that aside from the archetypes already outlines (toolbox, nyxwave, etc) a distinction needs to be made between builds that go for explosiveness, and ones that build towards consistency/sticky devotion.
A good example is Strangleroot Geist vs Burning Tree Emissary. Once the opponent gets stomped down the first game, if they're heavy on removal (Jund) they will quickly realize that if they just bolt all of our easily boltable devotion enablers, our big guys never come out. Most of our lists don't have much of a midrange grinding strategy. Strangleroot gives us sticky devotion and early game beats, while trading off the potential explosiveness of BTE>Nykthos
in the 3drop slot, Courser of Kruphix/Kitchen Finks vs Wistful Selkie. Selkie gives us instant card draw, but like BTE, a small body, and the only enduring effect being 1 more devotion than other choices. Courser gives us card advantage, especially when paired with strategic use of fetches, and the 4 toughness is incredibly relevant, as it survives blocking just about all the creatures opponents will drop for the first 3 turns, bolt, and Anger of the Gods. Finks is good but probably not better, likely best in the side, or builds with more of a "stompy" curve. Another card worth more discussion that I would really like to see results with is Jadelight Ranger, especially in a list that runs high numbers of Courser/Tireless Tracker/fetches/Eternal Witness. The synergy there could possibly comprise the best "value" list we have access to.
4 drops are an awkward slot for us, but our best "actual" four drops are Thrun, the last troll and Chameleon Colossus, as they survive just about all removal in the meta. Surrak, the Hunt Caller, Boartusk Liege are very decent but I haven't been able to justify trading them our for Thrun/Colossus. Obstinate Baloth should live in the side of all Green builds against handrips and as lifegain on a stick.
5 drops are also an awkward slot for us currently, as the best "sticky" devotion enabler is Vorapede, but as a creature, Thragtusk is just better, as Vorapede is still susceptible to Exile effects. Samut, Voice of Dissent is another very powerful 5 drop, and arguably better than Surrak as a haste enabler, though including him over Xenagos, God of Revels would depend on the build.
7 drops are the game enders/heavy disruption/go-wide, Dragonlord Atarka, Hornet Queen. These creatures all shift the board massively in our advantage. I also consider Wolfbriar and Polukranos to occupy this slot, as they have the same effects as Dragonlord and Queen, cost roughly the same or more in practice, though they are are arguably less effective choices in most builds.
And obviously, Craterhoof Behemoth is in a tier of his own, as an auto-include for ending the game at 8 mana.
If I have missed anything or if there is disagreement over my choices then lets discuss it, but just to recap, I think that we really need to start focusing our creature choices and coming to some agreements on core lists!
Some footnotes, after considering the use of Chameleon Colossus vs Polukranos in the 4 slot, and Polukranos' scalable utility over Dragonlord, I thought there is some potential in a build that specifically works to maximize devotion while prioritizing sticky and easily castable creatures, through going the route of mono-green. The build would prioritize creatures that are hard to remove and have the best devotion available along the curve, so as to have undisrupted ramp into Craterhoof. To further the redundancy, the list would probably run an extra craterhoof in the side against control. I'll have a bit of a sample list up later on today.
Another consideration I'm currently musing over is mainboarding Bonfire of the Damned, possibly over Polukranos/Dragonlord if its hard to find room. A scalable boardwipe with no bottom end (like Polukranos), that also does damage straight to the face, is a powerful option. Banefire is another very powerful card, and possibly a better include alongside our creature suite, to give us an alternate finisher.
Playtested a casual game against a Jeskai deck with a win con based on flipping a 3/2 flyer off cantrip spells and putting Geist on the board to swing as finisher while protecting both with spot removal and counterspells.
Prowling Serpopard was a bomb in the match-up. Even if the opponent nuked it with Path or Lightning Bolt, staying on the board with at least 5 to 6 devotion and at least one swing from it in a race turned into a clock the opponents coult not race. You need Aspect of Hydra to win of course. You can now maindeck Deus of Calamity for better devotion and the damn thing will stick with one Serpopard in play. Countermagic is a little *****ty if you play with a full set of Serpopard plus one Gaea's Revenge upon sideboarding, but Serpopard swings hard early game that one unchecked swing with Aspect of Hydra makes it a one turn game.
I've found out that in those games when the opponent does Spreading Seas on your Nykthos, the only reason for playing Aspect of Hydra is to have your dumb weenie horde still be of any value with at least one unblocked creature and the pump spell in hand.
Using the Primalcrux build and not having any Planeswalkers is okay as long as you can plop down fatties by turn 3 or 4 and keep them coming. A good board that sneaks in even just one attacker, pumped by Aspect of Hydra gets them down to 5, this with Prowling Serpopard as the first swing and the opponent trusting they can outrace your damage output because they have spot removal. Replacing the explore creature, you can actually get a ramp elf that fetches a basic land, that's 3 to cast and it thins out the deck of one Forest and keeps you a body blocker in the battlefield. Ywo land fetch elves are my picks plus two to three Prowling Serpopards as early beats that set up a Primalcrux or a Deus of Calamity that cannot be countered. Those fatties don't have to last until next turn, you swing at them with an open Serpopard and if they don't block the Devotion pump from the fattie via ASpect of Hydra is lethal.
Aspect of Hydra makes a nuked Nukthos in your battlefield irrelevant, as the opponent expends mana for spreading seas but opens itself up to a swing and a free Aspect of Hydra pump for devotion almost lethal if not lethal.
Mistcutter hydra seems pretty good along those lines
Yup I forgot to include colossus, but I consider him an auto include as well. He's just so, so good against all removal aside from path, and I'd only take him out for a Thrun against control.
Nissa is definitely a good choice, but I'd have to be convinced to run more than 2 of her. She would add a lot of value to Kitchen Finks (resetting persist), but overall the best thing she does is create token blockers which eventually become a stronger Behemoth finish. Any planeswalker that isn't Garruk is a bit of a flex slot for me. I suppose a good argument could be made for a 2/2 split between her and Courser of Kruphix.
Anytime I start talking about more than a 1x of Courser, I start thinking about how damn good adding the whole package of Tracker/Jadelight/Eternal witness would be. It requires quite the mainboard slot investment, but I really, really think it could be an amazing performer. It trades a bit of devotion for the ability to grind out the midrange with more consistent topdeck filtering and card advantage than any control deck.
So I noticed Rien Vanraepenbusch's list made it to the Top 8 in GP Lyon. We didn't really discuss it much that I could find references to in the thread, and I think that going forward, our best bet to becoming competitive is continually developing and updating our core list of includes/meta includes/exludes based on recent tournament results. Here's his list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18503&d=315075&f=MO
Unfortunately, even though he made top 8, he's not in any of the Feature Matches in the MtG YouTube channel for the event :/ bummed me out a bit, I really wanted to see how he piloted his list with such results.
The other recent tournament performer in the archetype I believe is a user here, Anthony Skrzypczak. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18090&d=312273&f=MO
His list seems a bit faster, opting for Pacts over P.Command, and the creature curve is weighted a bit higher. I can't help but wonder though, whether the Arbor Colossus was really just an input error, considering it'd be right next to Arbor Elf in any alphabetical list, and seems to be a bit of a strange 4-of.
I've been thinking a lot of ways to optimize, and I think that aside from the archetypes already outlines (toolbox, nyxwave, etc) a distinction needs to be made between builds that go for explosiveness, and ones that build towards consistency/sticky devotion.
A good example is Strangleroot Geist vs Burning Tree Emissary. Once the opponent gets stomped down the first game, if they're heavy on removal (Jund) they will quickly realize that if they just bolt all of our easily boltable devotion enablers, our big guys never come out. Most of our lists don't have much of a midrange grinding strategy. Strangleroot gives us sticky devotion and early game beats, while trading off the potential explosiveness of BTE>Nykthos
in the 3drop slot, Courser of Kruphix/Kitchen Finks vs Wistful Selkie. Selkie gives us instant card draw, but like BTE, a small body, and the only enduring effect being 1 more devotion than other choices. Courser gives us card advantage, especially when paired with strategic use of fetches, and the 4 toughness is incredibly relevant, as it survives blocking just about all the creatures opponents will drop for the first 3 turns, bolt, and Anger of the Gods. Finks is good but probably not better, likely best in the side, or builds with more of a "stompy" curve. Another card worth more discussion that I would really like to see results with is Jadelight Ranger, especially in a list that runs high numbers of Courser/Tireless Tracker/fetches/Eternal Witness. The synergy there could possibly comprise the best "value" list we have access to.
4 drops are an awkward slot for us, but our best "actual" four drops are Thrun, the last troll and Chameleon Colossus, as they survive just about all removal in the meta. Surrak, the Hunt Caller, Boartusk Liege are very decent but I haven't been able to justify trading them our for Thrun/Colossus. Obstinate Baloth should live in the side of all Green builds against handrips and as lifegain on a stick.
5 drops are also an awkward slot for us currently, as the best "sticky" devotion enabler is Vorapede, but as a creature, Thragtusk is just better, as Vorapede is still susceptible to Exile effects. Samut, Voice of Dissent is another very powerful 5 drop, and arguably better than Surrak as a haste enabler, though including him over Xenagos, God of Revels would depend on the build.
7 drops are the game enders/heavy disruption/go-wide, Dragonlord Atarka, Hornet Queen. These creatures all shift the board massively in our advantage. I also consider Wolfbriar and Polukranos to occupy this slot, as they have the same effects as Dragonlord and Queen, cost roughly the same or more in practice, though they are are arguably less effective choices in most builds.
And obviously, Craterhoof Behemoth is in a tier of his own, as an auto-include for ending the game at 8 mana.
If I have missed anything or if there is disagreement over my choices then lets discuss it, but just to recap, I think that we really need to start focusing our creature choices and coming to some agreements on core lists!
Some footnotes, after considering the use of Chameleon Colossus vs Polukranos in the 4 slot, and Polukranos' scalable utility over Dragonlord, I thought there is some potential in a build that specifically works to maximize devotion while prioritizing sticky and easily castable creatures, through going the route of mono-green. The build would prioritize creatures that are hard to remove and have the best devotion available along the curve, so as to have undisrupted ramp into Craterhoof. To further the redundancy, the list would probably run an extra craterhoof in the side against control. I'll have a bit of a sample list up later on today.
Another consideration I'm currently musing over is mainboarding Bonfire of the Damned, possibly over Polukranos/Dragonlord if its hard to find room. A scalable boardwipe with no bottom end (like Polukranos), that also does damage straight to the face, is a powerful option. Banefire is another very powerful card, and possibly a better include alongside our creature suite, to give us an alternate finisher.
@mistahARK Great breakdown! I would say for the 3 drops we have Nissa, which is quite relevant in grinding games. And for 4 drops dont forget about Camaleon Colossus, hes such a powerhouse I have been running him in most of my last games as my 4 drops of choice in my main board
Yup I forgot to include colossus, but I consider him an auto include as well. He's just so, so good against all removal aside from path, and I'd only take him out for a Thrun against control.
Nissa is definitely a good choice, but I'd have to be convinced to run more than 2 of her. She would add a lot of value to Kitchen Finks (resetting persist), but overall the best thing she does is create token blockers which eventually become a stronger Behemoth finish. Any planeswalker that isn't Garruk is a bit of a flex slot for me. I suppose a good argument could be made for a 2/2 split between her and Courser of Kruphix.
Anytime I start talking about more than a 1x of Courser, I start thinking about how damn good adding the whole package of Tracker/Jadelight/Eternal witness would be. It requires quite the mainboard slot investment, but I really, really think it could be an amazing performer. It trades a bit of devotion for the ability to grind out the midrange with more consistent topdeck filtering and card advantage than any control deck.
I think this is a good synopsis of the options at various mana thresholds. Just to add a bit:
I've always been torn about BTE; it enables our most explosive openings, but is generally a very bad topdeck. I think the decision about this versus other options is going to depend a lot on the deck structure. BTE is going to perform at its best with decks emphasizing powerful openings and a go-wide strategy, but Geist is really great when you expect to draw a lot of extra cards or cast something like Genesis Wave or Aspect of Hydra, where it creates a sudden and noticeable increase in offensive power.
I can understand not being crazy about just playing Wolfbriar at 4 mana. But Polukranos is fine there, as it outsizes most things at the same cost. Realistically, it is hard to fit a lot of 4 mana creatures in alongside Garruk.
At 3 mana, I've found Nissa VoZ is actually great when mixed with Garruk WS in almost any circumstances. Bolstering Craterhoof as another victory path is great too, as is the threat of a big Sphinx's Revelation in several turns. I was skeptical on this at first, preferring Courser, but AS changed my mind. Another card that relates is Tracker, which can lead to gradual accumulation of card advantage while presenting a huge threat on its own.
I've been looking lately for more threats that stick early and can win, but also can still be meaningful long-term. As much as I like Atarka and Hornet Queen, I'm no longer sure I want them in my main deck.
Have you guys tought about opening a discord channel or a facebook group? The guys from the amulet titan have one going on and its very good for dynamic discussions about specific cards as well as sharing lists pre tournaments and discussing tournament results while they are in them.
I recently started participating in some Legacy discords. I'd be glad to set up one for mono-green Devotion, but I don't think I should be the one maintaining it long-term. I'll work on it, but I think one of our long-term veterans like CurdBros might be better to admin it in the long haul. Give me a few minutes and I'll set it up.
That's awesome Lord! Legacy Devotion would be awesome! And I'd call you a Veteran at this point
P.S. The Primer may go down for a little while today or at minimum look pretty funny for a few hours (while I add the new one in). It will only effect the first page...but I wanted to give a heads up just in case.
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In terms of what 2-, 3-, and 4-drops to use (and really every other cost up the curve) I really do believe the deck structure and "purpose" will help make these decisions for you.
A good example of this is Wolfbriar Elemental. It is not a card I play in most decks; but in my current list it has performed quite well. The reason, however, is because I have the ability to bounce it. It functions as a 4-drop 4/4 in the absolute worst case scenario...however with Clodustone CurioI can re-cast and re-kick it whenever I have the extra mana. Obviously, ever 2/2 for G is where the real power in the card is. Essentially, if I kick Wolfbriar for anything over 2, traditionally I will win the next turn.
Having said all of this, it is not a card I would advise for a majority of Devotion decks. I think it can be a good one-of in attrition-based match ups; but there are other good options available. This is the importance deck construction plays in our choices. I also tend to heavily weight (likely more than most would) permanent-mana sinks and cards that net card advantage (i.e. things that explicity draw a card or cards, planeswalkers, etc.) upon resolution.
BTE is a perfect example of this as well. If I play BTE, I play Summoner's Pact...and this means the deck is going to be more linear and more explosive. BTE is a great card in this deck...but there are a lot of Devotion decks where it just underperforms. I also play Elvish Visionary, Coiling Oracle, and Fertile Ground at 2-CMC...I think more decks should consider these cards...but again their use is based on deck construction (where many decks would likely prefer Strangleroot Geist and other decks forego the 2-drop slot altogether). By playing so many 2-drops, however, I am also forced to play a few more 1-drops (like Abundant Growth, Oath, etc.) as turn 2 will often involve playing BOTH a 2-drop and a 1-drop (rather than a 3-drop). The patterns of play over my experience/time with the deck have helped define what cards I can/should play.
I think you are ABSOLUTELY right, however, that it would be super helpful to have a CMC-based analysis in the Primer. I have something somewhat similar; but I will work now to break it down into CMC-sections. Hopefully this will help new players decide what is best for their decks. Great point!
One of my favorite moments in magic happened last night...
I was up against a friend playing a Marvel deck. If you're not familiar, it basically uses energy artifacts to cheat in Emrakul. First game, she did just that on turn 4. 2nd Game I killed her with a Craterhoof overrun, specifically on an Inkmoth. Third game, I won by sacrificing Hornet Queen tokens (for annilihator 6), blocking Emrakul with the Queen, recurring Hornet Queen with Eternal Witness. Then she plays Emrakul again, I again sac tokens and block with Queen, build up the board a couple turns, and win with a Garruk overrun I was so nervous but ***** did that end up playing out well. I think the Queen has earned a mainboard slot in the deck, sorry Atarka, but you're just not quite as good.
I also took a cue from the two most recent tournament lists and ran a single Garruk Relentless, and boy was he a performer, I'd say easily as good as both VoZ and Wildspeaker. I can't see running more than one, but he was very good at what he did.
Random Aside...this is the "Grull" version of Walker Combo I am currently trying (I have been going back and fourth between the Simic Version and the Grull version)...I feel like the Black Splash and White Splash lend themselves better to non-combo versions of a Walker deck. The deck plays relatively similar to a "normal" devotion deck with the main difference being the combo infinite mana/dra/damage win condition.
1. Bloodbraid Elf was a strong addition to the deck.
2. Still not entirely sure that Oath of Nissa shouldn't just be Abundant Growth (as it doesn't hit Curio)...but Oath is awesome.
3. Reclamation Sage is currently a "test" card in the main.
4. Bloodbraid Elf and Walking Ballista is a nombo...so this could be an issue. Hasn't been a huge issue yet; but I'm sure it will happen.
The Red version (Grull Version) has the benefit of not needing Nykthos to go infinite (as Xenagos can "go off" without Nykthos)...its really nice when three different walkers can generate mana (Garruk, Xenagos, and Chandra). It is a little less resilient and does not dig as much as the blue version; but can create more tokens. There are pros and cons to both...I can't yet say one is superior to the other (but I am trying to find out).
Current Simic Version (for my own use to have both lists in same spot)
Not certain the Fertile Grounds are necessary; but I have liked the play patterns so I don't want to screw it up too much It is likely they would be better as two copies of Oath of Nissa or even another high-CMC card but I'll have to test it.
Off playtesting the deck I've noticed that the board dorks with devotion need to ramp into a fatty devotion dork to impose a threat level that overwhelms an opponent. If you can plop down a Deus of Calamity by turn 3 or 4, it immediately places so much pressure on the opponent to kill your fatty, and if he doesn't even with summoning sickenss, the fatty enables an almost lethal devotion attack from a Prowling Serpopard and other devotion dorks like a BTE or Strangleroot Geist by pump with Aspect of Hydra.
The philosophy behind putting a fatty in play immediately like Arbor Colossus from Alex's list or Deus of Calamity as my preferred fatty is to force them to spend mana and lose their Path to Exile, help us get more land ramp in, and to pave the way for the Primalcrux to hit the board. If they tap out early, the Aspect of Hydra pumps for almost lethal with only 5 or 6 life remaining.
Although given there are Snapcaster Mage's in any White splash decks, playing with Prowling Serpopard guarantees bigger early hits, forces them to cuse up their Lightning Bolts instead of waiting for lethal range to close out.
This build may not necessarily be a pure BIG STOMPY deck with Nykthos as an additional pump.
But you can't ignore Aspect of Hydra's potential to make the window for the opponent to survive shorter.
They get shocked that even if they kill your fatty, or wait it out because of summoning sickness, an unblocked dork like a Serpopard will net up to 11 damage or more in one swing.
Given minus 1 from fetch and minus 2 from Shocklands, that means they get below 10 so fast, they start to throw everything at your small guys or save them for your next fatty, in any case, if they kill a Strangleroot Geist, he comes back and you let them expend a spot removal spell while using up mana, and you put down another fatty, whether that be Primalcrux or Primeval Titan.
I'm looking at Devotion Modern Green now as counting down before they get card advantage for disrupting your hand or board, then taking over with their Celestial Colonnade or blue creature, or you forcing the issue by making countermagic dead cards, and forcing opponents to cast spot removals and lose card advantage, an early game Aspect of Hydra is always the BIG PLAY in this scenario, followed by big daddy after big daddy.
If you do manage to add any more stuff, try counting the play by play of your builds. As Aggro Jamie Wakefield aka Secret Force, but casting a Fatty, we can tweak for See the Unwritten or Summoning Trap, or put in one or two Privileged Position to make the Aspect Pump so difficult to recover from.
The goal again is to set up board with one or two devotion dorks that include Prowling Serpopard so that your next fatty gets down clean and you can cast an Aspect of hydra on any unblcoked attacker to push their life down to two swings.
If this is the best way to build on BIG STOMPY with some options for pulling out stuff like Ruric Thar the Unbowed, to make any spot removal game over, as the second or third fatty via Primal Command or any creature tutor. The kill against any control deck may be faster too this way. instead of overloading on blockers, as is the usual route of devotion green, blocker devotion creeps into Craterhoof or Garruk Overrun--both o which is inherently a weaker strategy because the opponent will just disrupt your hand to limit the devotion curve or blow up your board. A third turn fatty protected by Prowling Serpopard is serious clock for anyone to build around.
The other rouite is multiple BTE into Craterhoof, or Garruk is already built in for the listed Primalcrux build, You just have to play it a certain way. And swing at once for the Serpopard if you can make a Deus of Calamity stick. The ETB snootiness of Devotion builds may be overrated, like Acidic Slime or any other 5 CMC creature, the slot is really best served by Deus just for the imminent threat of overwhelming plus the sweet clock reduction via Aspect of Hydra. You don't play Aspect for defense either, you go to the head if an unblocked creature punches through to make it tougher on them to defend or to mana fix with shock lands or fetches.
Having a 5 CMC Devotion creature that is difficult to kill aside from Path to Exile or dedicated black burn spells is highly underrated and I know the long timers on the board have different playstyles thinking a more resilient build with smaller devotion is preferable because of the Craterhoof alpha strike.
Deus sets up Primalcrux, and if you are lucky enough for a sweet devotion presence with other devotion dorks, you get lethal via any topdeck Aspect of Hydra or one already in hand..
Alright, i am looking to try and see how close this can become to being competitive. I kow it can have a goodly amount of huge t2 and t3 plays. 5 mana available on t2 for land hate is not horribly uncommon. Beast within is the almoat gauremteed t2 land hate, or combo hate in a few annoying matches. Lots of refining is needed though, so i am looking for lots of help.
A lot of discussion going on since I've been away the last few days!
Couple things that caught my eye -
I dig the discord idea. I check here throughout the day, so it's nice to have a more dynamic place to discuss
I also believe that a CMC-breakdown would be a great addition to the primer. There are so many options of Devotion, it would certainly help newer players narrow in on the most important cards.
@mistahARK I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for Jadelight. I've been running it for a while now and it is consistently one of the best cards in the deck. In the early game it helps you dig, and late game it clears out the junk at the top. Some may compare it to Selkie, however the GGG cost versus 1GG is actually a big difference. With a low land count, it is very common to only have GG available on turn 2. Very relevant.
@Curdbros I dig your inclusion of BBE! I know it's a nonbo with certain cards, but sometimes you have to embrace the variance. Also, is there a reason for the Ballistas over something like Karn? I remember your earlier curio builds used him as an alternate win condition. Does Ballista fill a similar infinite mana dump role? (Also, it's Gruul, like in Gruul Ragebeast :P)
@stormie_sarge Your list is very interesting! The only thing I can say with experience is that many times, a turn 2 Beast Within can actually lose you the game! Ponza players (including myself) have played it, and there are times when you feel like you need to destroy a permanent, but you don't have the boardstate to protect against the beast. In your list, there are not many cards that can deal with a 3/3 early, which is my main point of concern. If you added some Coursers to help protect yourself, that may be beneficial. I would even consider swapping or splitting the Beast Within's with Mwonvuli Acid Moss, but that's for you to test out. Other things to tighten up... BTE seems awkward with no Oath's or Pact's in the build. You don't have much in the way of digging power, so you won't always have a Nykthos to take advantage of them. I would clean up your 2 and 3 CMC slots to allow more Coursers and Trackers for some card advantage and blocking power. Thragtusk might be more of a sideboard card as well. Hope this helps!
jund itself drives me crazy, in my recent round of losing too it, the guy was using the -2 ability to use and abuse the same bloodbraid elf for a lot of dig/gas.
considering how creature centric we tend to be I'm considering splash for her.
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(Nykthos in hand and play) Activate Nykthos > Oath > Play Nykthos for turn > Sac first Nykthos > activate second nythos > Broken bond targeting Oath > move sac'd Nykthos back to the field > sacrifice second Nykthos > activate third Nykthos
Works the same with a Nykthos in the graveyard and in play, but you just get 1 less activation out of the deal. I name this combo:
The Oath of Broken Nythos.
Because we have finally broken Nykthos.
Even if the combo turns out to be too situational to mainboard the cards for, the new card is still probably the best artifact/enchantment hate that Green ramp decks can get, and especially Nykthos builds.
I'm just gonna leave my previous post up as a monument to "read the card".
It is definitely still one of the better artifact/enchantment hate cards available, and in decks that run high numbers of Oath, it can just be a ramp spell too.
Probably more sideboard material though, debatable if its actually better than Reclamation Sage though (tutorable).
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Karn, Scion of Urza has been suprisingly strong. In play it is pretty insurmountable. I REALLY like where the Walker Combo deck is at. It finally feels like I can hit the combo extremely consistently; but most importantly that all of the peices work together WITHOUT the combo (i.e. the deck can easily win without it). That was always one of the weaknesses in the deck in the past that no longer exists. My favorite part is what an opponent last night said...he said, "the thing is, I don't know what to remove...I don't know what is important to deal with and what not to worry about..." With creatures, walkers, artifacts, enchantments, and important lands...the opponent is kind of left deciding what to remove and also whether they should try to attack me or the walkers (if they can profitably attack). I would like to get a few more artifacts in the deck (although my board is heavily in artifacts) to take advantage of Karn SOU's -2 ability...but that can come later. I'm really liking it. I'm down to just two Devotion decks (one being the Walker Combo deck) and feel like i have solidified what I think works best for me in Devotion.
The other card I've been really happy with is Wolfbriar Elemental.
I have done that in the past. I had a heart attaack when I first read Maulfist Revolutionary...it took me like three times to read it (as I was certain it couldn't be what I thought for the cost...).
But you are right that it is a really cool card. Enchantment/artifact removal with an upside...nice. I do have hate i prefer a little more; but thus definitely has its uses for sure.
Prowling Serpopard was a bomb in the match-up. Even if the opponent nuked it with Path or Lightning Bolt, staying on the board with at least 5 to 6 devotion and at least one swing from it in a race turned into a clock the opponents coult not race. You need Aspect of Hydra to win of course. You can now maindeck Deus of Calamity for better devotion and the damn thing will stick with one Serpopard in play. Countermagic is a little *****ty if you play with a full set of Serpopard plus one Gaea's Revenge upon sideboarding, but Serpopard swings hard early game that one unchecked swing with Aspect of Hydra makes it a one turn game.
I've found out that in those games when the opponent does Spreading Seas on your Nykthos, the only reason for playing Aspect of Hydra is to have your dumb weenie horde still be of any value with at least one unblocked creature and the pump spell in hand.
Using the Primalcrux build and not having any Planeswalkers is okay as long as you can plop down fatties by turn 3 or 4 and keep them coming. A good board that sneaks in even just one attacker, pumped by Aspect of Hydra gets them down to 5, this with Prowling Serpopard as the first swing and the opponent trusting they can outrace your damage output because they have spot removal. Replacing the explore creature, you can actually get a ramp elf that fetches a basic land, that's 3 to cast and it thins out the deck of one Forest and keeps you a body blocker in the battlefield. Ywo land fetch elves are my picks plus two to three Prowling Serpopards as early beats that set up a Primalcrux or a Deus of Calamity that cannot be countered. Those fatties don't have to last until next turn, you swing at them with an open Serpopard and if they don't block the Devotion pump from the fattie via ASpect of Hydra is lethal.
Aspect of Hydra makes a nuked Nukthos in your battlefield irrelevant, as the opponent expends mana for spreading seas but opens itself up to a swing and a free Aspect of Hydra pump for devotion almost lethal if not lethal.
This all seems correct. I haven't brewed with the deck in a while. It might be time to again.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Unfortunately, even though he made top 8, he's not in any of the Feature Matches in the MtG YouTube channel for the event :/ bummed me out a bit, I really wanted to see how he piloted his list with such results.
The other recent tournament performer in the archetype I believe is a user here, Anthony Skrzypczak. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18090&d=312273&f=MO
His list seems a bit faster, opting for Pacts over P.Command, and the creature curve is weighted a bit higher. I can't help but wonder though, whether the Arbor Colossus was really just an input error, considering it'd be right next to Arbor Elf in any alphabetical list, and seems to be a bit of a strange 4-of.
I've been thinking a lot of ways to optimize, and I think that aside from the archetypes already outlines (toolbox, nyxwave, etc) a distinction needs to be made between builds that go for explosiveness, and ones that build towards consistency/sticky devotion.
A good example is Strangleroot Geist vs Burning Tree Emissary. Once the opponent gets stomped down the first game, if they're heavy on removal (Jund) they will quickly realize that if they just bolt all of our easily boltable devotion enablers, our big guys never come out. Most of our lists don't have much of a midrange grinding strategy. Strangleroot gives us sticky devotion and early game beats, while trading off the potential explosiveness of BTE>Nykthos
in the 3drop slot, Courser of Kruphix/Kitchen Finks vs Wistful Selkie. Selkie gives us instant card draw, but like BTE, a small body, and the only enduring effect being 1 more devotion than other choices. Courser gives us card advantage, especially when paired with strategic use of fetches, and the 4 toughness is incredibly relevant, as it survives blocking just about all the creatures opponents will drop for the first 3 turns, bolt, and Anger of the Gods. Finks is good but probably not better, likely best in the side, or builds with more of a "stompy" curve. Another card worth more discussion that I would really like to see results with is Jadelight Ranger, especially in a list that runs high numbers of Courser/Tireless Tracker/fetches/Eternal Witness. The synergy there could possibly comprise the best "value" list we have access to.
4 drops are an awkward slot for us, but our best "actual" four drops are Thrun, the last troll and Chameleon Colossus, as they survive just about all removal in the meta. Surrak, the Hunt Caller, Boartusk Liege are very decent but I haven't been able to justify trading them our for Thrun/Colossus. Obstinate Baloth should live in the side of all Green builds against handrips and as lifegain on a stick.
Polukranos, world eater and Wolbriar elemental are intended to be scaled up, and thus feel bad as just a 4 drop, so I don't include them in the 4 slot, but rather in the slot that Dragonlord Atarka and Hornet Queen compete for.
5 drops are also an awkward slot for us currently, as the best "sticky" devotion enabler is Vorapede, but as a creature, Thragtusk is just better, as Vorapede is still susceptible to Exile effects. Samut, Voice of Dissent is another very powerful 5 drop, and arguably better than Surrak as a haste enabler, though including him over Xenagos, God of Revels would depend on the build.
the 6cmc slot is pretty well locked into Primeval Titan into Treetop Village/Raging Ravine/Kessig Wolf Run, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in the side against disruptive opponents, and the new Carnage Tyrant as a bomb against control. There are other options, but having either an ETB effect or being resistant to removal is a must for a creature to be competitive.
7 drops are the game enders/heavy disruption/go-wide, Dragonlord Atarka, Hornet Queen. These creatures all shift the board massively in our advantage. I also consider Wolfbriar and Polukranos to occupy this slot, as they have the same effects as Dragonlord and Queen, cost roughly the same or more in practice, though they are are arguably less effective choices in most builds.
And obviously, Craterhoof Behemoth is in a tier of his own, as an auto-include for ending the game at 8 mana.
If I have missed anything or if there is disagreement over my choices then lets discuss it, but just to recap, I think that we really need to start focusing our creature choices and coming to some agreements on core lists!
Some footnotes, after considering the use of Chameleon Colossus vs Polukranos in the 4 slot, and Polukranos' scalable utility over Dragonlord, I thought there is some potential in a build that specifically works to maximize devotion while prioritizing sticky and easily castable creatures, through going the route of mono-green. The build would prioritize creatures that are hard to remove and have the best devotion available along the curve, so as to have undisrupted ramp into Craterhoof. To further the redundancy, the list would probably run an extra craterhoof in the side against control. I'll have a bit of a sample list up later on today.
Another consideration I'm currently musing over is mainboarding Bonfire of the Damned, possibly over Polukranos/Dragonlord if its hard to find room. A scalable boardwipe with no bottom end (like Polukranos), that also does damage straight to the face, is a powerful option. Banefire is another very powerful card, and possibly a better include alongside our creature suite, to give us an alternate finisher.
Looking forward to the Primer update @Curdbros!
Mistcutter hydra seems pretty good along those lines
Nissa is definitely a good choice, but I'd have to be convinced to run more than 2 of her. She would add a lot of value to Kitchen Finks (resetting persist), but overall the best thing she does is create token blockers which eventually become a stronger Behemoth finish. Any planeswalker that isn't Garruk is a bit of a flex slot for me. I suppose a good argument could be made for a 2/2 split between her and Courser of Kruphix.
Anytime I start talking about more than a 1x of Courser, I start thinking about how damn good adding the whole package of Tracker/Jadelight/Eternal witness would be. It requires quite the mainboard slot investment, but I really, really think it could be an amazing performer. It trades a bit of devotion for the ability to grind out the midrange with more consistent topdeck filtering and card advantage than any control deck.
I think this is a good synopsis of the options at various mana thresholds. Just to add a bit:
I've always been torn about BTE; it enables our most explosive openings, but is generally a very bad topdeck. I think the decision about this versus other options is going to depend a lot on the deck structure. BTE is going to perform at its best with decks emphasizing powerful openings and a go-wide strategy, but Geist is really great when you expect to draw a lot of extra cards or cast something like Genesis Wave or Aspect of Hydra, where it creates a sudden and noticeable increase in offensive power.
I can understand not being crazy about just playing Wolfbriar at 4 mana. But Polukranos is fine there, as it outsizes most things at the same cost. Realistically, it is hard to fit a lot of 4 mana creatures in alongside Garruk.
At 3 mana, I've found Nissa VoZ is actually great when mixed with Garruk WS in almost any circumstances. Bolstering Craterhoof as another victory path is great too, as is the threat of a big Sphinx's Revelation in several turns. I was skeptical on this at first, preferring Courser, but AS changed my mind. Another card that relates is Tracker, which can lead to gradual accumulation of card advantage while presenting a huge threat on its own.
I've been looking lately for more threats that stick early and can win, but also can still be meaningful long-term. As much as I like Atarka and Hornet Queen, I'm no longer sure I want them in my main deck.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I recently started participating in some Legacy discords. I'd be glad to set up one for mono-green Devotion, but I don't think I should be the one maintaining it long-term. I'll work on it, but I think one of our long-term veterans like CurdBros might be better to admin it in the long haul. Give me a few minutes and I'll set it up.
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Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
P.S. The Primer may go down for a little while today or at minimum look pretty funny for a few hours (while I add the new one in). It will only effect the first page...but I wanted to give a heads up just in case.
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In terms of what 2-, 3-, and 4-drops to use (and really every other cost up the curve) I really do believe the deck structure and "purpose" will help make these decisions for you.
A good example of this is Wolfbriar Elemental. It is not a card I play in most decks; but in my current list it has performed quite well. The reason, however, is because I have the ability to bounce it. It functions as a 4-drop 4/4 in the absolute worst case scenario...however with Clodustone CurioI can re-cast and re-kick it whenever I have the extra mana. Obviously, ever 2/2 for G is where the real power in the card is. Essentially, if I kick Wolfbriar for anything over 2, traditionally I will win the next turn.
Having said all of this, it is not a card I would advise for a majority of Devotion decks. I think it can be a good one-of in attrition-based match ups; but there are other good options available. This is the importance deck construction plays in our choices. I also tend to heavily weight (likely more than most would) permanent-mana sinks and cards that net card advantage (i.e. things that explicity draw a card or cards, planeswalkers, etc.) upon resolution.
BTE is a perfect example of this as well. If I play BTE, I play Summoner's Pact...and this means the deck is going to be more linear and more explosive. BTE is a great card in this deck...but there are a lot of Devotion decks where it just underperforms. I also play Elvish Visionary, Coiling Oracle, and Fertile Ground at 2-CMC...I think more decks should consider these cards...but again their use is based on deck construction (where many decks would likely prefer Strangleroot Geist and other decks forego the 2-drop slot altogether). By playing so many 2-drops, however, I am also forced to play a few more 1-drops (like Abundant Growth, Oath, etc.) as turn 2 will often involve playing BOTH a 2-drop and a 1-drop (rather than a 3-drop). The patterns of play over my experience/time with the deck have helped define what cards I can/should play.
I think you are ABSOLUTELY right, however, that it would be super helpful to have a CMC-based analysis in the Primer. I have something somewhat similar; but I will work now to break it down into CMC-sections. Hopefully this will help new players decide what is best for their decks. Great point!
I was up against a friend playing a Marvel deck. If you're not familiar, it basically uses energy artifacts to cheat in Emrakul. First game, she did just that on turn 4. 2nd Game I killed her with a Craterhoof overrun, specifically on an Inkmoth. Third game, I won by sacrificing Hornet Queen tokens (for annilihator 6), blocking Emrakul with the Queen, recurring Hornet Queen with Eternal Witness. Then she plays Emrakul again, I again sac tokens and block with Queen, build up the board a couple turns, and win with a Garruk overrun
I also took a cue from the two most recent tournament lists and ran a single Garruk Relentless, and boy was he a performer, I'd say easily as good as both VoZ and Wildspeaker. I can't see running more than one, but he was very good at what he did.
I've organized the Discord and tossed a few starting builds up for people to look at, just to get the conversation rolling.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Primeval Titan
2x Walking Ballista
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Abundant Growth
Artifact (2)
2x Cloudstone Curio
Planeswalker (10)
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
3x Stomping Ground
6x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Few current thoughts"
1. Bloodbraid Elf was a strong addition to the deck.
2. Still not entirely sure that Oath of Nissa shouldn't just be Abundant Growth (as it doesn't hit Curio)...but Oath is awesome.
3. Reclamation Sage is currently a "test" card in the main.
4. Bloodbraid Elf and Walking Ballista is a nombo...so this could be an issue. Hasn't been a huge issue yet; but I'm sure it will happen.
The Red version (Grull Version) has the benefit of not needing Nykthos to go infinite (as Xenagos can "go off" without Nykthos)...its really nice when three different walkers can generate mana (Garruk, Xenagos, and Chandra). It is a little less resilient and does not dig as much as the blue version; but can create more tokens. There are pros and cons to both...I can't yet say one is superior to the other (but I am trying to find out).
Current Simic Version (for my own use to have both lists in same spot)
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Elvish Visionary
3x Coiling Oracle
1x Eternal Witness
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
1x Acidic Slime
2x Walking Ballista
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Abundant Growth
1x Fertile Ground
Artifact (2)
2x Cloudstone Curio
Planeswalker (11)
3x Nissa, Steward of Elements
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Karn, Scion of Urza
1x Karn Liberated
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Breeding Pools
7x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Not certain the Fertile Grounds are necessary; but I have liked the play patterns so I don't want to screw it up too much
The philosophy behind putting a fatty in play immediately like Arbor Colossus from Alex's list or Deus of Calamity as my preferred fatty is to force them to spend mana and lose their Path to Exile, help us get more land ramp in, and to pave the way for the Primalcrux to hit the board. If they tap out early, the Aspect of Hydra pumps for almost lethal with only 5 or 6 life remaining.
Although given there are Snapcaster Mage's in any White splash decks, playing with Prowling Serpopard guarantees bigger early hits, forces them to cuse up their Lightning Bolts instead of waiting for lethal range to close out.
This build may not necessarily be a pure BIG STOMPY deck with Nykthos as an additional pump.
But you can't ignore Aspect of Hydra's potential to make the window for the opponent to survive shorter.
They get shocked that even if they kill your fatty, or wait it out because of summoning sickness, an unblocked dork like a Serpopard will net up to 11 damage or more in one swing.
Given minus 1 from fetch and minus 2 from Shocklands, that means they get below 10 so fast, they start to throw everything at your small guys or save them for your next fatty, in any case, if they kill a Strangleroot Geist, he comes back and you let them expend a spot removal spell while using up mana, and you put down another fatty, whether that be Primalcrux or Primeval Titan.
I'm looking at Devotion Modern Green now as counting down before they get card advantage for disrupting your hand or board, then taking over with their Celestial Colonnade or blue creature, or you forcing the issue by making countermagic dead cards, and forcing opponents to cast spot removals and lose card advantage, an early game Aspect of Hydra is always the BIG PLAY in this scenario, followed by big daddy after big daddy.
If you do manage to add any more stuff, try counting the play by play of your builds. As Aggro Jamie Wakefield aka Secret Force, but casting a Fatty, we can tweak for See the Unwritten or Summoning Trap, or put in one or two Privileged Position to make the Aspect Pump so difficult to recover from.
The goal again is to set up board with one or two devotion dorks that include Prowling Serpopard so that your next fatty gets down clean and you can cast an Aspect of hydra on any unblcoked attacker to push their life down to two swings.
If this is the best way to build on BIG STOMPY with some options for pulling out stuff like Ruric Thar the Unbowed, to make any spot removal game over, as the second or third fatty via Primal Command or any creature tutor. The kill against any control deck may be faster too this way. instead of overloading on blockers, as is the usual route of devotion green, blocker devotion creeps into Craterhoof or Garruk Overrun--both o which is inherently a weaker strategy because the opponent will just disrupt your hand to limit the devotion curve or blow up your board. A third turn fatty protected by Prowling Serpopard is serious clock for anyone to build around.
The other rouite is multiple BTE into Craterhoof, or Garruk is already built in for the listed Primalcrux build, You just have to play it a certain way. And swing at once for the Serpopard if you can make a Deus of Calamity stick. The ETB snootiness of Devotion builds may be overrated, like Acidic Slime or any other 5 CMC creature, the slot is really best served by Deus just for the imminent threat of overwhelming plus the sweet clock reduction via Aspect of Hydra. You don't play Aspect for defense either, you go to the head if an unblocked creature punches through to make it tougher on them to defend or to mana fix with shock lands or fetches.
Having a 5 CMC Devotion creature that is difficult to kill aside from Path to Exile or dedicated black burn spells is highly underrated and I know the long timers on the board have different playstyles thinking a more resilient build with smaller devotion is preferable because of the Craterhoof alpha strike.
Deus sets up Primalcrux, and if you are lucky enough for a sweet devotion presence with other devotion dorks, you get lethal via any topdeck Aspect of Hydra or one already in hand..
Think about it guys. Arbor Elf into BTE then Prowling Serpopard, sets up Deus of Calamity then Primalcrux or Primeval Titan or even Craterhoof Behemoth. All the while, you can have 3 or so Aspects of Hydra in the deck.
4x Arbor Elf
4x Burning-Tree Emmissary
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Leatherback Baloth
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Primeval Titan
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Terestadon
1x Acidic Slime
1x Thragtusk
2x World Breaker
4x Utopia Sprawl
Instant (4)
4x Beast Within
Sorcery (4)
4x Primal Command
Planeswalker (10)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Land (24)
2x Treetop Village
18x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Acidic Slime
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Pithing Needle
1x Bow of Nylea
Alright, i am looking to try and see how close this can become to being competitive. I kow it can have a goodly amount of huge t2 and t3 plays. 5 mana available on t2 for land hate is not horribly uncommon. Beast within is the almoat gauremteed t2 land hate, or combo hate in a few annoying matches. Lots of refining is needed though, so i am looking for lots of help.
Couple things that caught my eye -
I dig the discord idea. I check here throughout the day, so it's nice to have a more dynamic place to discuss
I also believe that a CMC-breakdown would be a great addition to the primer. There are so many options of Devotion, it would certainly help newer players narrow in on the most important cards.
@mistahARK I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for Jadelight. I've been running it for a while now and it is consistently one of the best cards in the deck. In the early game it helps you dig, and late game it clears out the junk at the top. Some may compare it to Selkie, however the GGG cost versus 1GG is actually a big difference. With a low land count, it is very common to only have GG available on turn 2. Very relevant.
@Curdbros I dig your inclusion of BBE! I know it's a nonbo with certain cards, but sometimes you have to embrace the variance. Also, is there a reason for the Ballistas over something like Karn? I remember your earlier curio builds used him as an alternate win condition. Does Ballista fill a similar infinite mana dump role? (Also, it's Gruul, like in Gruul Ragebeast :P)
@stormie_sarge Your list is very interesting! The only thing I can say with experience is that many times, a turn 2 Beast Within can actually lose you the game! Ponza players (including myself) have played it, and there are times when you feel like you need to destroy a permanent, but you don't have the boardstate to protect against the beast. In your list, there are not many cards that can deal with a 3/3 early, which is my main point of concern. If you added some Coursers to help protect yourself, that may be beneficial. I would even consider swapping or splitting the Beast Within's with Mwonvuli Acid Moss, but that's for you to test out. Other things to tighten up... BTE seems awkward with no Oath's or Pact's in the build. You don't have much in the way of digging power, so you won't always have a Nykthos to take advantage of them. I would clean up your 2 and 3 CMC slots to allow more Coursers and Trackers for some card advantage and blocking power. Thragtusk might be more of a sideboard card as well. Hope this helps!
jund itself drives me crazy, in my recent round of losing too it, the guy was using the -2 ability to use and abuse the same bloodbraid elf for a lot of dig/gas.
considering how creature centric we tend to be I'm considering