Ha! I had this nice long response discussing the differences between Garruk and Satyr as well as Curio vs. Sabertooth and then you went and said it all in about 200 less words!
Just as with most comparisons; the cards are just different and have their own pros and cons...it's a little hard to compare a 2-mana creature to a 4-mana walker; but I do see why you (ProTourPlayer) did...as you utilize both as mana production (as your deck is not concerned with the 3/3 token and/or Overrun ability). It makes sense that you would compare them under those conditions (I.e. In the prism of your deck in particular).
I have been playing A TON of devotion lately (we've had some downtime in between everything the last few weeks) and I have to say that the Primal Command + Witness combo seems better than ever. I know it's always been one of the more powerful things we can do; but it does require a slightly more interactive deck. It just seems crazy good in the current meta (full of Jund, Dredge, Burn, Eldrazi, etc.) My builds tend to be a little more permanent-heavy than most and I tend to hack an edge on Jund in game one...but I have heard some say their Jund match up is not strong so I don't mean to speak for everyone.
As you know; I've been focusing on some particular cards to see how they function in Devotion. Here is the list I'm currently testing:
1. The Racors have been a little Wonkey (although they work great on Bellower, Hunter, Courser, and the 3/3 tokens...
2. I really wanted to make a deck that focused heavily on Garruk and Witness/Command. The Garruk focus is pretty obvious ( ways to take advantage of all three abilities quickly), but the Witness/Command focus is harder to see. Bellower can tutor for Witness (as can of course Command) but Commune can get Commands in the yard. Because Commune, Oath, Bellower, and Command can dig/tutor for Witness; you either want to have a Command available in hand or in the yard for access to both as often as possible. I've liked the combo of Commune with Witness (as it gives an Early Witness options in the yard).
3. The board is 3-CMC creature and enchantment heavy for obvious reasons. Between Command. Oath, Commune, and Bellower; I am finding it far easier to access my sideboard cards quickly. I also have one more Command in there for those match ups where it is back breaking.
I'd like to get a Sabertooth in the list (right now in board).
The deck is far from tuned; but I have learned a lot from it; and it is competitive (only about 20% of my ideas/brews end up being competitive; but this one is....which is why I'm posting it). I have a LOT more testing to do before I try it out in competitive leagues, etc.; but this may end up being my other Devotion deck I play regularly (as of course I can't get away from my Walker Devotion baby )
I'd truly appreciate any help, thoughts, or ideas. This exact list may not end up what I hope it will be; but there are definite interactions I will be using in the future.
in terms of tournament competitiveness, i have no clue how good it is, but this usually goes off around turn six and is a long hilarious turn of mana. It is a major blast to play, given that its a super budget deck that hasnt been finely tuned
Of course Ghostwslker....not Every build is initially solely made to be an instant Tier deck, I just like to build with that goal. Also, everyone's local Modern meta is different. It is a fun idea either way; and as you said it is a superb budget deck (I'm thinking of adding a "budget" section for the Primer as Devotion is a great deck to play on a budget.
It takes a LONG time to tune decks too. I'm still trying out things in multiple builds; and even then the meta can shift and change your priorities a little.
P.S. I would like to try a Tireless Tracker in my deck as well. Pretty good with Courser and if a game is Super Grindy it can be a great tutor target. Not certain it makes the cut though.
** Removed Rancor from build...it just felt like every time I drew it I wished it was a more high-impact card. Trying out a few things and will let you know where it falls. **
Ha! I had this nice long response discussing the differences between Garruk and Satyr as well as Curio vs. Sabertooth and then you went and said it all in about 200 less words!
Just as with most comparisons; the cards are just different and have their own pros and cons...it's a little hard to compare a 2-mana creature to a 4-mana walker; but I do see why you (ProTourPlayer) did...as you utilize both as mana production (as your deck is not concerned with the 3/3 token and/or Overrun ability). It makes sense that you would compare them under those conditions (I.e. In the prism of your deck in particular).
To be fair, I did spend a bit of time revising that post to make it more concise and precise.
I have been playing A TON of devotion lately (we've had some downtime in between everything the last few weeks) and I have to say that the Primal Command + Witness combo seems better than ever. I know it's always been one of the more powerful things we can do; but it does require a slightly more interactive deck. It just seems crazy good in the current meta (full of Jund, Dredge, Burn, Eldrazi, etc.) My builds tend to be a little more permanent-heavy than most and I tend to hack an edge on Jund in game one...but I have heard some say their Jund match up is not strong so I don't mean to speak for everyone.
As you know; I've been focusing on some particular cards to see how they function in Devotion. Here is the list I'm currently testing:
1. The Racors have been a little Wonkey (although they work great on Bellower, Hunter, Courser, and the 3/3 tokens...
2. I really wanted to make a deck that focused heavily on Garruk and Witness/Command. The Garruk focus is pretty obvious ( ways to take advantage of all three abilities quickly), but the Witness/Command focus is harder to see. Bellower can tutor for Witness (as can of course Command) but Commune can get Commands in the yard. Because Commune, Oath, Bellower, and Command can dig/tutor for Witness; you either want to have a Command available in hand or in the yard for access to both as often as possible. I've liked the combo of Commune with Witness (as it gives an Early Witness options in the yard).
3. The board is 3-CMC creature and enchantment heavy for obvious reasons. Between Command. Oath, Commune, and Bellower; I am finding it far easier to access my sideboard cards quickly. I also have one more Command in there for those match ups where it is back breaking.
I'd like to get a Sabertooth in the list (right now in board).
The deck is far from tuned; but I have learned a lot from it; and it is competitive (only about 20% of my ideas/brews end up being competitive; but this one is....which is why I'm posting it). I have a LOT more testing to do before I try it out in competitive leagues, etc.; but this may end up being my other Devotion deck I play regularly (as of course I can't get away from my Walker Devotion baby )
I'd truly appreciate any help, thoughts, or ideas. This exact list may not end up what I hope it will be; but there are definite interactions I will be using in the future.
I am, as you know, always a fan of Eternal-Command/Primal-Witness.
Sadly, this is not the deck for Rancor. That surprised the hell out of me, as I'm used to putting Rancor in any Green deck I can. It's as automatic for me as Lightning Bolt in red.
For 3-casters, I absolutely agree with getting a Tracker in there. I also think you should play some Baloths in place of Hunters: while Hunters CAN be bigger, Baloths are reliably "big enough," plus provide a lot more Devotion on their own. Keeping a single Hunter to search up with Bellower/Command is a good idea. For the same reason, a single Nylea as a Command target might not be bad either to close things up (though the Craterhoof might often be better).
in terms of tournament competitiveness, i have no clue how good it is, but this usually goes off around turn six and is a long hilarious turn of mana. It is a major blast to play, given that its a super budget deck that hasnt been finely tuned
While turn 6 is not sufficiently fast, it was definitely interesting as a though experiment and may have utility in other builds.
The trample helps end board stalls and makes Hunters and Bellowers even better; and the 6/6 indestructible for 4 has been helpful in many instances...also, the mana-sink ability has been great for turning dorks/Selkies into threats....Temur Sabertooth just is great with so many cards in the deck, and I won a lot of games just by overrunning Garruk, getting trample from Wolf Run, or just hitting for 20 while keeping them from getting anything going.
It's tough to know how many games I would lose from not having the trample, 6/6 body, and/or sink compared to (versus) how many games I would win by saving a creature, re-triggering ETB effects for card/board advantage.
This one is less worrisome; but Slime is so good and I already have the big body's via Hunters, Bellowers, and Nylea (not to mention pumps via Wolf Run, Garruk, and/or Nylea).
Slime continues the controlling nature of the deck while Hydra goes more toward the "overwhelming" aspect of the deck (that's really all the deck does...slows them down while we build an insurmountable advantage).
In the end; this is only a game-one issue (as the other card will go in the board and could be boarded in during match-ups where it is superior to other cards in the main).
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There are other three- drops to choose between. They include Wistful Selkie, Carven Caryatid, Tireless Tracker, and Courser of Kruphix. I think this can change with the meta if need be. Tracker and Courser go together in Grind-heavy/attrition metas, Selkie is best on his own (if mana works), Caryatid and Courser however are great in heavy aggro metas (which may be coming soon if Deaths Shadow and Burn keep rising). They really can be any of them (those three slots will just shift with the meta) however Selkie does give you:
A turn three Command (especially on the play) is pretty backbreaking to a lot of decks...so Selkie definitely has its own upsides in the deck.
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I really wanted to get Karn Liberated in the main board. I've had so many games where Karn was devastating to the opponent...between Karn and Command many games 2 & 3 felt like I was playing control I'm going to see what can be cut (if anything) without hurting the "smoothness" of the deck.
It's nice having Oath of Nissa, Commune with the Gods, and Kiora, Master of the Depths dig for creatures, lands, enchantments, and/or walkers while Woodland Bellower and Primal Command tutor for certain creatures...makes the deck feel very smooth (like one thing stringing into the other)...this is continued through the board (where all are Creatures' Enchantments, or Planeswalkers to fit the tutors/looting cards in the main...the Summoners Pact also allows us to side in "two effective copies" of each creature. We can always recur it with Eternal Witness or get it back in the deck to be tutored again with Primal Command.
There are a few cards I'd like in the board (mainly Dragonlord Atarka) but gotta figure out what to cut (maybe Ruric Thar, the Unbowed). The cards are most just the tried and true "oldies but goodies" but that's ok. The deck is functioning extremely well; and being able to both overwhelm the opponent while also feeling like I can interact with their game plan is something that is a tough balance. So far so good! I'll keep testing (wanted to get a minimum of 12 hours in) and provide what info I can.
Walker Combo "Midrange"
I've also worked a little on trying to incorporate some of this into a Walker Combo build. This is what I have so far (although I've only spent about 4 of the last 12 hours on it):
I was actually surprised at how differently they play and equally surprised in this meta how important it can be to simply have an early 6/6 - 10/10 (even without trample). I can't say one is better than the other but these are the two decks I will be playing at minimum until Kaladesh comes out (assuming something is printed that we can utilize which is a big assumption).
P.S. You could also play the exact same list, but with Acidic Slime instead of Karn, Liberated and Temur Sabertooth instead of Cloudstone Curio if you wanted a list close to that of ProTourPlayers list (i.e. kind of a control/etb abuse main). I've put it below.
Same thing...it is the same exact "Core" with the four slots of choice changed. I'd have to test to figure out how often you have 5 and not 7 mana (as Karn Liberated is the superior card in a vaccum) however Acidic Slime and Temur Sabertooth can be tutored with Primal Command as ProTourPlayer has stated; and it is easier to bounce an Acidic Slime than Karn Liberated (just requires Cloudstone Curio and one other creature or a Temur Sabertooth rather than Karn which requires Curio and another walker). The downside is that it is not an "infinite" combo where the Walkers are (so even if the opponent gains infinite life you still win with the Walkers).
Essentially, I have "Core" with 4 slots that can change. The remainder of the deck is a great Witness/Command/Garruk Core. From there it is literally just the win-cons and interaction of choice for the meta.
As discussed above, it is literally just the same core 56 cards with the four "cards of choice" being 2x Acidic Slime and 2x Temur Sabertooth. May be best with only one Sabertooth main, and one board; but that is a small change.
This is essentially the "core" to each of my current lists....it for me has been a great core at taking the most advantage out of three of the cards I want to focus on the most (Eternal Witness, Primal Command, and Garruk Wildspeaker). The other four slots can be taken up pretty by any cards you choose.
Hey everybody. I've given up the devo combo version for MTGO even tho I love it in paper. I need a version that isn't so time consuming online. Im brewing up a ramp into primalcrux and xenagod currently. Anybody using them now?
That was my main thing with the combo deck robrone....even when you yield to the Curio trigger and are fast enough to get it done...it still is taxing just doing it
The Primallcrux/Xenagos idea is a fun one! Since they are both Green and you are going for a more Combo-centric deck; I would say you most likely want to look into a faster Summoner's Pact type devotion deck.
@steven: Land Destruction Primer
The R/G Ponza looks very similar because it uses Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl Ramp. However since they play Blood Moon, Nykthos isn't really an option. Be ready for some salt when playing the deck, people hate playing aginst LD.
With the recent discussion, there are some other points I was observing: The Number of Birds of Paradise. I have been playing 2, 3 and 4. And it's a good sign to see that players using Birds, many came to the conclusion that 3 is the smoothest number. 11x 1 drop ramp, should guarantee a T1 ramp play. (There's a reprint in CN2, hooray!)
The lack of Primeval Titan. Even without the deck supporting him sepcifically (Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker, Lotus Cobra), I would still warrant the inclusion of 1. Searching out Kessig Wolf Run (+Nykthos) and turning every creature you have into a lethal threat is one of the more specific uses I play him for. And then all the land thinning, ramp, him being natural trampler. it's the literal horror for any fair and grindy decks.
Financial Note: If you're into playing this kind of deck in paper, now is a great time to get your Primeval Titans. Here in Europe they are 8 Euros/copy. (They've dropped since Amulet of Vigor ban)
The "return" of Overgrowth. Traditionally, only T&N played them as a staple. I can most definitely see the appeal:
T1: Land + Arbor Elf / Birds of Paradise / Utopia Sprawl
T2: Land + 3 Drop. While most of the 3 drops are game advancing, they fail to secure T3 5+ Mana. Overgrowth is ensuring to hit 5 Mana by turn 3, given your T1 Ramp survives. Being removal safe comes with the loss of any board presence, and a meager +1 to devotion.
And being able to T3 Primal Command (bounce a land + Ewitness="lock") is a strong disruptive play. On the play you can effectively keep them on 2 mana, plus no natural draws for the next turns (given we have 8 Mana T4). All the while you get your draws and get back your Primal Command and add eWitness to the board. (just re-emphasizing the power of that play)
Maybe it is worth to talk about why Primal Command is so exceptionally good. The answer is versatility!
This makes the Command a card you want to see in so many matchups:
Burn/Zoo/Aggro: Gaining 7 Life, getting a solid blocker or creature based Life gain. Amazing.
Dredge: Shuffling their Graveyard into their library. Goodbye Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam and all the Dredge enabler.
Lantern Control: Bouncing Ensnaring Bridge and beating the miserable lantern player (yes, I hate the deck) with your creatures. Shuffling your own Graveyard into the library, keeping Surgical Extraction and the eventual mill death at bay.
Affinity: Bouncing, gaining Life, searching creatures. What you need the most at the moment.
Control (Esper, UW, UWR Nahiri): Haven't been playing a lot against it. In my little experience: Mana Leak can be played around. Spell Snare is laughably bad for them. Resolved Primal Command (lock mode) gets you incredibly far ahead.
Living End: With playing so many ETB creatures, it's not as bad a matchup in the first place. Shuffling their GY into the Library is devastating.
Ad Nauseam: In my experience, just be faster. Primal Command buys time.
Tron: Bouncing Tron pieces is obviously good. Curdbros hit the nail on the head: we are the control players here.
Merfolk/Jeskai Geist/Hatebear/Scapeshift: Not enough experience on my part.
The matchup I was the most disappointed in Primal Command was Infect. I really feel helpless against Blighted Agent (G1).
There are so many MU's where Primal Command is relevant, that's why the card is so strong and I'm back playing 4 again.
Never stop brewing (experimental online list, not playing it in paper)
I wanted to be able to remove something T2. This lead me to the following list. It's still in the stage 1 (as many 4 ofs as possible). It's not working out so far. The idea being T2: BTE + Domri Rade.
Jaccjacc: I agree with most of what you said. I can also point to the failure point in that brew: while it looks streamlined, it has insufficient midrange and threats. Its only real way to deliver lethal damage is through a Garruk-Overrun or lucking into a Kessig. Domri Rade is really about as good as Phyrexian Arena here and, while good, it's not sufficient if our best threats are only bears. A single Titan and/or Craterhoof in there to be found by Oath/Command would go a long way in making the deck more consistent.
I beleive there is another for Ponza alone (as we had a few on here before that discussed starting their own thread)...I would just search for it in the Developing Compeitive and Deck Creation sections.
@steven: Land Destruction Primer
The R/G Ponza looks very similar because it uses Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl Ramp. However since they play Blood Moon, Nykthos isn't really an option. Be ready for some salt when playing the deck, people hate playing aginst LD.
With the recent discussion, there are some other points I was observing: The Number of Birds of Paradise. I have been playing 2, 3 and 4. And it's a good sign to see that players using Birds, many came to the conclusion that 3 is the smoothest number. 11x 1 drop ramp, should guarantee a T1 ramp play. (There's a reprint in CN2, hooray!)
The lack of Primeval Titan. Even without the deck supporting him sepcifically (Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker, Lotus Cobra), I would still warrant the inclusion of 1. Searching out Kessig Wolf Run (+Nykthos) and turning every creature you have into a lethal threat is one of the more specific uses I play him for. And then all the land thinning, ramp, him being natural trampler. it's the literal horror for any fair and grindy decks.
Financial Note: If you're into playing this kind of deck in paper, now is a great time to get your Primeval Titans. Here in Europe they are 8 Euros/copy. (They've dropped since Amulet of Vigor ban)
The "return" of Overgrowth. Traditionally, only T&N played them as a staple. I can most definitely see the appeal:
T1: Land + Arbor Elf / Birds of Paradise / Utopia Sprawl
T2: Land + 3 Drop. While most of the 3 drops are game advancing, they fail to secure T3 5+ Mana. Overgrowth is ensuring to hit 5 Mana by turn 3, given your T1 Ramp survives. Being removal safe comes with the loss of any board presence, and a meager +1 to devotion.
And being able to T3 Primal Command (bounce a land + Ewitness="lock") is a strong disruptive play. On the play you can effectively keep them on 2 mana, plus no natural draws for the next turns (given we have 8 Mana T4). All the while you get your draws and get back your Primal Command and add eWitness to the board. (just re-emphasizing the power of that play)
Maybe it is worth to talk about why Primal Command is so exceptionally good. The answer is versatility!
This makes the Command a card you want to see in so many matchups:
Burn/Zoo/Aggro: Gaining 7 Life, getting a solid blocker or creature based Life gain. Amazing.
Dredge: Shuffling their Graveyard into their library. Goodbye Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam and all the Dredge enabler.
Lantern Control: Bouncing Ensnaring Bridge and beating the miserable lantern player (yes, I hate the deck) with your creatures. Shuffling your own Graveyard into the library, keeping Surgical Extraction and the eventual mill death at bay.
Affinity: Bouncing, gaining Life, searching creatures. What you need the most at the moment.
Control (Esper, UW, UWR Nahiri): Haven't been playing a lot against it. In my little experience: Mana Leak can be played around. Spell Snare is laughably bad for them. Resolved Primal Command (lock mode) gets you incredibly far ahead.
Living End: With playing so many ETB creatures, it's not as bad a matchup in the first place. Shuffling their GY into the Library is devastating.
Ad Nauseam: In my experience, just be faster. Primal Command buys time.
Tron: Bouncing Tron pieces is obviously good. Curdbros hit the nail on the head: we are the control players here.
Merfolk/Jeskai Geist/Hatebear/Scapeshift: Not enough experience on my part.
The matchup I was the most disappointed in Primal Command was Infect. I really feel helpless against Blighted Agent (G1).
There are so many MU's where Primal Command is relevant, that's why the card is so strong and I'm back playing 4 again.
Never stop brewing (experimental online list, not playing it in paper)
I wanted to be able to remove something T2. This lead me to the following list. It's still in the stage 1 (as many 4 ofs as possible). It's not working out so far. The idea being T2: BTE + Domri Rade.
What a cool post! I may have to add some of this to the Primer
I like the idea of having some form of versatile creature removal. It is the one area Green lacks the most (all colors have to have a weakness or it wouldn't be a very fun/versatile game). I tend to hope my creatures will outsize their's' but when it comes to decks like Infect and Abzan Company (with the infinite combo(s)) there is a definite need for actual removal. There are a few things we can do. and it is a great place for us to explore. Domri Rade is a great card because it allows us to have removal without dedicating a card to just removal (and being a permanent is big).
Hit the infinite combo today vs. Control..it is nice to have a combo available in an otherwise interactive deck.
For those that didn't know; you can use two Garruk's, a Witness, and a Temur Sabertooth to create infinite mana (which in turn can be infinite life/infinite loop with Witness/Command and/or infinite damage via Nylea or Wolf Run.)
Infinite is fun.
And ill go ahead and ask since its sort of relevant and seems okay. Pelakka Wurm.
Its not Craterhoof or Titan but a 7/7 and seven life is okay, adding three devotion at the time you could play it is slightly ineffective but ive had some odd experiences with it. Its big enough that its always a valid threat, but its mediocre enough that they dont really want to waste removal on it since theres Titans and Craters floating around. They tend to let it slide with bad blocks and a few trample hits while getting rid of scarier threats. And that lets it beat in for some significant damage while boosting devotion for the later plays off of Nykthos.
Not that its the best card you could play by a long shot, but its still oddly effective
Pelakka Wurm is completely playable. I generally find that other cards have more impact, but it's solid. It's particularly useful as a tutor-target against Burn (discussed a few pages back).
Hit the infinite combo today vs. Control..it is nice to have a combo available in an otherwise interactive deck.
For those that didn't know; you can use two Garruk's, a Witness, and a Temur Sabertooth to create infinite mana (which in turn can be infinite life/infinite loop with Witness/Command and/or infinite damage via Nylea or Wolf Run.)
Isnt two Garruks a witness and a sabertooth way harder to get than an Acolyte and a SBS?
Hit the infinite combo today vs. Control..it is nice to have a combo available in an otherwise interactive deck.
For those that didn't know; you can use two Garruk's, a Witness, and a Temur Sabertooth to create infinite mana (which in turn can be infinite life/infinite loop with Witness/Command and/or infinite damage via Nylea or Wolf Run.)
Isnt two Garruks a witness and a sabertooth way harder to get than an Acolyte and a SBS?
I actually never thought about the 2x Garruk + Sabertooth + Witness combo. It works, but it's cumbersome. Acolyte + SBS is easier, but requires two sub-par cards.
I like that we have these incidental combos, but I don't build specifically to include any of them. I just consider it a plus when they turn up.
Okay, so ive been hesitant to include this in the thread, mostly cause ive classified it as more of a landfall deck, but theres no landfall primer and this does use Nykthos a lot. My current,most competitive list that i usually play with the few modern players in my area is this.
3 Scythe leopard
3 Elvish Mystic
3 Khalni heart expedition
3 Undergrowth Champion
3 Harrow
3 retreat to kazandu
3 Surrak the hunt caller
3 Garruk wildspeake
2 Polukranos, world eater
3 Baru, fist of Krosa
3 Primeval titan
3 Garruk, caller of beasts
3 Avenger of zendikar
1 Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
20 forest
3 Nykthos
SIDEBOARD
3 fog
3 isochron scepter
3 autumns veil
3 creeping corosion
3 back to nature
Apolagies for not linking to cards, i havent figured out if its even possible on a phone yet.
If you use deck-tags, it will automatically turn the cards into links (whether mobile or on a full computer).
While your build isn't a common Nykthos variant, it is interesting. I recommend cramming 4x Sprawl and Arbor Elf in. Then, it will indisputably qualify (and might even be faster).
Also, while not technically landfall cards, have you considered Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix? The former gives card advantage in a very landfall-like way, and the latter makes land drops more reliable.
I have considered both. Im trying to get trackers and coursers are awesome, i was playing three before but the deck plays out lands so quickly that it gets to the point where you're just forecasting your draws way too early for it to be favorable. Its very common to have 10-12 lands down on turn five or six and then im not seeing them often enough on top to be worth the forecast. This deck doesnt do a whole lot on 1 or two. But on turn three i can Harrow into the Expedition and i have six land on field. Turn four titan is awesome. Im working on Amulet of vigor so i can Surrak on three to haste Primeval titan on four. The main use of Nykthos is trying to drop Emrakul or Ulamog. Although it does make great use of Baller of Beasts' +1 basically refilling my hand to flood the board. I was playing three Acolytes and three Voyaging Satyr but the deck doesnt value having all that mana considering the point of unless i draw one of the Eldrazi im not going to spend more than 25 mana which Nykthos makes it easy to ramp up to.
Basically every card in the deck is furthering the goal and Baru can end up boosting the whole team in ways that i feel outclass even Kessig Wolf Run and is comprable to Craterhoof, considering i put out 4-8 lands a turn for most of the game until im out of them and his grandeur ability makes drawing multiples very satisfying.
When i get Trackers they are definitely heavily in consideration to go in here, i just cant decide where yet, and while i like Sprawls and Arbors, i really cant find a good home for them in here, im already playing 63 cards and i dont really know what id take out. The best option would be Expeditions and Harrows but those are neccessary to the speed. Maybe the Mystics, which is a good option, but i cant justify taking anything out for Sprawl when i already have a very solid manabase.
@deklive: Congratulations to your results. Spreading Seas is truly a pain to play against.
Great little SB guide. It makes a lot of sense.
Surprised that you're writing Eldrazi&Taxes is favorable. They just have so much to interact with our Mana acceleration. Leonin Arbiter, Aven Mindcensor is good vs fetches and Command. Flickerwisp, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben all slow us down. On the other hand, we do play a lot of creatures (and bigger ones). How did you SB vs it?
Just as with most comparisons; the cards are just different and have their own pros and cons...it's a little hard to compare a 2-mana creature to a 4-mana walker; but I do see why you (ProTourPlayer) did...as you utilize both as mana production (as your deck is not concerned with the 3/3 token and/or Overrun ability). It makes sense that you would compare them under those conditions (I.e. In the prism of your deck in particular).
I have been playing A TON of devotion lately (we've had some downtime in between everything the last few weeks) and I have to say that the Primal Command + Witness combo seems better than ever. I know it's always been one of the more powerful things we can do; but it does require a slightly more interactive deck. It just seems crazy good in the current meta (full of Jund, Dredge, Burn, Eldrazi, etc.) My builds tend to be a little more permanent-heavy than most and I tend to hack an edge on Jund in game one...but I have heard some say their Jund match up is not strong so I don't mean to speak for everyone.
As you know; I've been focusing on some particular cards to see how they function in Devotion. Here is the list I'm currently testing:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Reverent Hunter
3x Eternal Witness
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Woodland Bellower
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Rancor
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Instant/Sorcery
3x Primal Command
4x Commune with the Gods
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wooded Foothills
6x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Few Random points:
1. The Racors have been a little Wonkey (although they work great on Bellower, Hunter, Courser, and the 3/3 tokens...
2. I really wanted to make a deck that focused heavily on Garruk and Witness/Command. The Garruk focus is pretty obvious ( ways to take advantage of all three abilities quickly), but the Witness/Command focus is harder to see. Bellower can tutor for Witness (as can of course Command) but Commune can get Commands in the yard. Because Commune, Oath, Bellower, and Command can dig/tutor for Witness; you either want to have a Command available in hand or in the yard for access to both as often as possible. I've liked the combo of Commune with Witness (as it gives an Early Witness options in the yard).
3. The board is 3-CMC creature and enchantment heavy for obvious reasons. Between Command. Oath, Commune, and Bellower; I am finding it far easier to access my sideboard cards quickly. I also have one more Command in there for those match ups where it is back breaking.
I'd like to get a Sabertooth in the list (right now in board).
The deck is far from tuned; but I have learned a lot from it; and it is competitive (only about 20% of my ideas/brews end up being competitive; but this one is....which is why I'm posting it). I have a LOT more testing to do before I try it out in competitive leagues, etc.; but this may end up being my other Devotion deck I play regularly (as of course I can't get away from my Walker Devotion baby )
I'd truly appreciate any help, thoughts, or ideas. This exact list may not end up what I hope it will be; but there are definite interactions I will be using in the future.
It takes a LONG time to tune decks too. I'm still trying out things in multiple builds; and even then the meta can shift and change your priorities a little.
P.S. I would like to try a Tireless Tracker in my deck as well. Pretty good with Courser and if a game is Super Grindy it can be a great tutor target. Not certain it makes the cut though.
** Removed Rancor from build...it just felt like every time I drew it I wished it was a more high-impact card. Trying out a few things and will let you know where it falls. **
To be fair, I did spend a bit of time revising that post to make it more concise and precise.
I am, as you know, always a fan of Eternal-Command/Primal-Witness.
Sadly, this is not the deck for Rancor. That surprised the hell out of me, as I'm used to putting Rancor in any Green deck I can. It's as automatic for me as Lightning Bolt in red.
For 3-casters, I absolutely agree with getting a Tracker in there. I also think you should play some Baloths in place of Hunters: while Hunters CAN be bigger, Baloths are reliably "big enough," plus provide a lot more Devotion on their own. Keeping a single Hunter to search up with Bellower/Command is a good idea. For the same reason, a single Nylea as a Command target might not be bad either to close things up (though the Craterhoof might often be better).
While turn 6 is not sufficiently fast, it was definitely interesting as a though experiment and may have utility in other builds.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Reverent Hunter
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wistful Selkie
2x Woodland Bellower
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
1x Acidic Slime
Enchantment & Walker
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Overgrowth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
4x Primal Command
2x Commune with the Gods
Land
7x Green Fetch Land
6x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Blood Moon
2x Haze Frog
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Temur Sabertooth
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Hornet Queen
1x Chandra Flamecaller
1x Karn, Liberated
1x Summoners Pact
The goal is to focus making the most of Garruk Wildspeaker, Eternal Witness, and Primal Command. I'm feeling really good with where it's at. The only real questions I have are two slots:
I would love input on the following
1. I don't know whether Nylea, God of the Hunt should just be Temur Sabertooth main.
The trample helps end board stalls and makes Hunters and Bellowers even better; and the 6/6 indestructible for 4 has been helpful in many instances...also, the mana-sink ability has been great for turning dorks/Selkies into threats....Temur Sabertooth just is great with so many cards in the deck, and I won a lot of games just by overrunning Garruk, getting trample from Wolf Run, or just hitting for 20 while keeping them from getting anything going.
It's tough to know how many games I would lose from not having the trample, 6/6 body, and/or sink compared to (versus) how many games I would win by saving a creature, re-triggering ETB effects for card/board advantage.
2. Should Acidic Slime be main or Genesis Hyrda?
This one is less worrisome; but Slime is so good and I already have the big body's via Hunters, Bellowers, and Nylea (not to mention pumps via Wolf Run, Garruk, and/or Nylea).
Slime continues the controlling nature of the deck while Hydra goes more toward the "overwhelming" aspect of the deck (that's really all the deck does...slows them down while we build an insurmountable advantage).
In the end; this is only a game-one issue (as the other card will go in the board and could be boarded in during match-ups where it is superior to other cards in the main).
---
There are other three- drops to choose between. They include Wistful Selkie, Carven Caryatid, Tireless Tracker, and Courser of Kruphix. I think this can change with the meta if need be. Tracker and Courser go together in Grind-heavy/attrition metas, Selkie is best on his own (if mana works), Caryatid and Courser however are great in heavy aggro metas (which may be coming soon if Deaths Shadow and Burn keep rising). They really can be any of them (those three slots will just shift with the meta) however Selkie does give you:
T1 - Forest, Arbor Elf
T2 - Forest, Wistful Selkie
T3 - Nykthos, Primal Command
A turn three Command (especially on the play) is pretty backbreaking to a lot of decks...so Selkie definitely has its own upsides in the deck.
I really wanted to get Karn Liberated in the main board. I've had so many games where Karn was devastating to the opponent...between Karn and Command many games 2 & 3 felt like I was playing control I'm going to see what can be cut (if anything) without hurting the "smoothness" of the deck.
It's nice having Oath of Nissa, Commune with the Gods, and Kiora, Master of the Depths dig for creatures, lands, enchantments, and/or walkers while Woodland Bellower and Primal Command tutor for certain creatures...makes the deck feel very smooth (like one thing stringing into the other)...this is continued through the board (where all are Creatures' Enchantments, or Planeswalkers to fit the tutors/looting cards in the main...the Summoners Pact also allows us to side in "two effective copies" of each creature. We can always recur it with Eternal Witness or get it back in the deck to be tutored again with Primal Command.
There are a few cards I'd like in the board (mainly Dragonlord Atarka) but gotta figure out what to cut (maybe Ruric Thar, the Unbowed). The cards are most just the tried and true "oldies but goodies" but that's ok. The deck is functioning extremely well; and being able to both overwhelm the opponent while also feeling like I can interact with their game plan is something that is a tough balance. So far so good! I'll keep testing (wanted to get a minimum of 12 hours in) and provide what info I can.
Walker Combo "Midrange"
I've also worked a little on trying to incorporate some of this into a Walker Combo build. This is what I have so far (although I've only spent about 4 of the last 12 hours on it):
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wistful Selkie
2x Woodland Bellower
Enchantment
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Overgrowth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
2x Karn Liberated
Artifact
2x Cloudstone Curio
Instant/Sorcery
4x Primal Command
2x Commune with the Gods
7x Green Fetch Land
6x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
This version is a little "cleaner" than the "Midrange" above even though they are only 4 total cards different (you literally just trade out:
- 1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
- 1x Acidic Slime
- 2x Reverent Hunter
and
+ 2x Karn Liberated
+ 2x Cloudstone Curio
I was actually surprised at how differently they play and equally surprised in this meta how important it can be to simply have an early 6/6 - 10/10 (even without trample). I can't say one is better than the other but these are the two decks I will be playing at minimum until Kaladesh comes out (assuming something is printed that we can utilize which is a big assumption).
P.S. You could also play the exact same list, but with Acidic Slime instead of Karn, Liberated and Temur Sabertooth instead of Cloudstone Curio if you wanted a list close to that of ProTourPlayers list (i.e. kind of a control/etb abuse main). I've put it below.
Same thing...it is the same exact "Core" with the four slots of choice changed. I'd have to test to figure out how often you have 5 and not 7 mana (as Karn Liberated is the superior card in a vaccum) however Acidic Slime and Temur Sabertooth can be tutored with Primal Command as ProTourPlayer has stated; and it is easier to bounce an Acidic Slime than Karn Liberated (just requires Cloudstone Curio and one other creature or a Temur Sabertooth rather than Karn which requires Curio and another walker). The downside is that it is not an "infinite" combo where the Walkers are (so even if the opponent gains infinite life you still win with the Walkers).
Essentially, I have "Core" with 4 slots that can change. The remainder of the deck is a great Witness/Command/Garruk Core. From there it is literally just the win-cons and interaction of choice for the meta.
Devotion Midrange Slime Version
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wistful Selkie
2x Temur Sabertooth
2x Acidic Slime
2x Woodland Bellower
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Overgrowth
Planeswalker
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Instant/Sorcery
4x Primal Command
2x Commune with the Gods
7x Green Fetch Land
6x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
As discussed above, it is literally just the same core 56 cards with the four "cards of choice" being 2x Acidic Slime and 2x Temur Sabertooth. May be best with only one Sabertooth main, and one board; but that is a small change.
Devotion Midrange "Core"
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wistful Selkie
2x Woodland Bellower
Enchantment
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Overgrowth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Instant/Sorcery
4x Primal Command
2x Commune with the Gods
Remaining Slots
4x Cards of Choice
Land
7x Green Fetch Land
6x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
This is essentially the "core" to each of my current lists....it for me has been a great core at taking the most advantage out of three of the cards I want to focus on the most (Eternal Witness, Primal Command, and Garruk Wildspeaker). The other four slots can be taken up pretty by any cards you choose.
Some of my decks:
Oath Walker Devo - Modern
Stompy - Modern
Battle of Wits - Modern
Teysa's Sac Circus - EDH
Rob's 450 Unpowered - Cube
The Primallcrux/Xenagos idea is a fun one! Since they are both Green and you are going for a more Combo-centric deck; I would say you most likely want to look into a faster Summoner's Pact type devotion deck.
The R/G Ponza looks very similar because it uses Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl Ramp. However since they play Blood Moon, Nykthos isn't really an option. Be ready for some salt when playing the deck, people hate playing aginst LD.
With the recent discussion, there are some other points I was observing: The Number of Birds of Paradise. I have been playing 2, 3 and 4. And it's a good sign to see that players using Birds, many came to the conclusion that 3 is the smoothest number. 11x 1 drop ramp, should guarantee a T1 ramp play. (There's a reprint in CN2, hooray!)
The lack of Primeval Titan. Even without the deck supporting him sepcifically (Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker, Lotus Cobra), I would still warrant the inclusion of 1. Searching out Kessig Wolf Run (+Nykthos) and turning every creature you have into a lethal threat is one of the more specific uses I play him for. And then all the land thinning, ramp, him being natural trampler. it's the literal horror for any fair and grindy decks.
Financial Note: If you're into playing this kind of deck in paper, now is a great time to get your Primeval Titans. Here in Europe they are 8 Euros/copy. (They've dropped since Amulet of Vigor ban)
The "return" of Overgrowth. Traditionally, only T&N played them as a staple. I can most definitely see the appeal:
T1: Land + Arbor Elf / Birds of Paradise / Utopia Sprawl
T2: Land + 3 Drop. While most of the 3 drops are game advancing, they fail to secure T3 5+ Mana. Overgrowth is ensuring to hit 5 Mana by turn 3, given your T1 Ramp survives. Being removal safe comes with the loss of any board presence, and a meager +1 to devotion.
And being able to T3 Primal Command (bounce a land + Ewitness="lock") is a strong disruptive play. On the play you can effectively keep them on 2 mana, plus no natural draws for the next turns (given we have 8 Mana T4). All the while you get your draws and get back your Primal Command and add eWitness to the board. (just re-emphasizing the power of that play)
Maybe it is worth to talk about why Primal Command is so exceptionally good. The answer is versatility!
This makes the Command a card you want to see in so many matchups:
The matchup I was the most disappointed in Primal Command was Infect. I really feel helpless against Blighted Agent (G1).
There are so many MU's where Primal Command is relevant, that's why the card is so strong and I'm back playing 4 again.
Never stop brewing (experimental online list, not playing it in paper)
I wanted to be able to remove something T2. This lead me to the following list. It's still in the stage 1 (as many 4 ofs as possible). It's not working out so far. The idea being T2: BTE + Domri Rade.
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Arbor Elf
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Birds of Paradise
Utility
4 Domri Rade
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Primal Command
4 Eternal Witness
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Hey Steven...here is what I found for a land-destruction Primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/220790-modern-land-destruction-denial
I beleive there is another for Ponza alone (as we had a few on here before that discussed starting their own thread)...I would just search for it in the Developing Compeitive and Deck Creation sections.
JaccJacc,
What a cool post! I may have to add some of this to the Primer
I like the idea of having some form of versatile creature removal. It is the one area Green lacks the most (all colors have to have a weakness or it wouldn't be a very fun/versatile game). I tend to hope my creatures will outsize their's' but when it comes to decks like Infect and Abzan Company (with the infinite combo(s)) there is a definite need for actual removal. There are a few things we can do. and it is a great place for us to explore. Domri Rade is a great card because it allows us to have removal without dedicating a card to just removal (and being a permanent is big).
For those that didn't know; you can use two Garruk's, a Witness, and a Temur Sabertooth to create infinite mana (which in turn can be infinite life/infinite loop with Witness/Command and/or infinite damage via Nylea or Wolf Run.)
And ill go ahead and ask since its sort of relevant and seems okay. Pelakka Wurm.
Its not Craterhoof or Titan but a 7/7 and seven life is okay, adding three devotion at the time you could play it is slightly ineffective but ive had some odd experiences with it. Its big enough that its always a valid threat, but its mediocre enough that they dont really want to waste removal on it since theres Titans and Craters floating around. They tend to let it slide with bad blocks and a few trample hits while getting rid of scarier threats. And that lets it beat in for some significant damage while boosting devotion for the later plays off of Nykthos.
Not that its the best card you could play by a long shot, but its still oddly effective
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Isnt two Garruks a witness and a sabertooth way harder to get than an Acolyte and a SBS?
I actually never thought about the 2x Garruk + Sabertooth + Witness combo. It works, but it's cumbersome. Acolyte + SBS is easier, but requires two sub-par cards.
I like that we have these incidental combos, but I don't build specifically to include any of them. I just consider it a plus when they turn up.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
3 Scythe leopard
3 Elvish Mystic
3 Khalni heart expedition
3 Undergrowth Champion
3 Harrow
3 retreat to kazandu
3 Surrak the hunt caller
3 Garruk wildspeake
2 Polukranos, world eater
3 Baru, fist of Krosa
3 Primeval titan
3 Garruk, caller of beasts
3 Avenger of zendikar
1 Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
20 forest
3 Nykthos
SIDEBOARD
3 fog
3 isochron scepter
3 autumns veil
3 creeping corosion
3 back to nature
Apolagies for not linking to cards, i havent figured out if its even possible on a phone yet.
While your build isn't a common Nykthos variant, it is interesting. I recommend cramming 4x Sprawl and Arbor Elf in. Then, it will indisputably qualify (and might even be faster).
Also, while not technically landfall cards, have you considered Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix? The former gives card advantage in a very landfall-like way, and the latter makes land drops more reliable.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Basically every card in the deck is furthering the goal and Baru can end up boosting the whole team in ways that i feel outclass even Kessig Wolf Run and is comprable to Craterhoof, considering i put out 4-8 lands a turn for most of the game until im out of them and his grandeur ability makes drawing multiples very satisfying.
When i get Trackers they are definitely heavily in consideration to go in here, i just cant decide where yet, and while i like Sprawls and Arbors, i really cant find a good home for them in here, im already playing 63 cards and i dont really know what id take out. The best option would be Expeditions and Harrows but those are neccessary to the speed. Maybe the Mystics, which is a good option, but i cant justify taking anything out for Sprawl when i already have a very solid manabase.
Great little SB guide. It makes a lot of sense.
Surprised that you're writing Eldrazi&Taxes is favorable. They just have so much to interact with our Mana acceleration. Leonin Arbiter, Aven Mindcensor is good vs fetches and Command. Flickerwisp, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben all slow us down. On the other hand, we do play a lot of creatures (and bigger ones). How did you SB vs it?
vs Jund: I was so disappointed that Genesis Wave can be targeted by Inquisition of Kozilek. Atleast we got Eternal Witness.