I've taken a bit of a turn in my decks lately, having Affinity, Jund, and a couple flavours of Grixis built. That beings said, mono-Green Devotion is near and dear to my heart. I have it mostly foiled, so I'm looking for what the consensus best build(s) are so I can finish it up.
Any help would be appreciated
Remember you? You mean the reason we have this lovely thread! For any of you who don't know (although I'm fairly certain it's in the Primer) GnuHouse actually created the first Green Decotion thread that has evolved to this thread
@curdbros I also checked out your primer on modern combo elves. Would you say that deck is, in general, superior to green devotion? Which would you recommend for a player that's newer to the game? And thanks for all the great info! Your primers are really a great introduction to some really interesting decks
Thank you so much for the kind words. In just glad to hear they are helpful!
That's actually a really good question. I would say for newer players, my first reaction would be to play a more "traditional" green devotion deck (if there was such a thing ) because Cloudstone Curio can get complicated with triggers (especially off Waves) and when you are untapping lands multiple times a turn, drawing cards, and bouncing things with Cloudstone you often have to "think ahead" to what you may draw into....but to be honest, once you have the hang of it and a general understanding of how Cloudstone works and the fact that the walker trigger at sorcery speed (but with Priority) it's just a matter of playing enough games until you've experienced all of the smaller interactions the deck can offer. It's sounds way more complex than it is in real play (as you will only have so many choices in an actual game).
I perform better currently with the Walker list; but I think that is because (a) it fits my play style, (b) it's a little better suited for the current meta. There are also all kinds of factors that play into "win percentage" such a mulligans, how often you win the die roll, etc. also, the new mulligan rule could help "traditional" versions quite a bit (as hitting a BTE in your first draw instead of a land could mean you win a turn or even 2 turns earlier)! I'm excited to see how the new mulligan rule effects Devotion (I think it's very good for us). Which deck is "better" to me boils down to feel (when the numbers are close). For me, the Walker deck is superior. It is not so much so; however, that I would advise an experienced Tooth and Nail, Stompy, Traditional, or NyxWave devotion player to change over.
We're also talking percentages. If my win percentage is 69% instead of 62%; we're still talking one more win every 14 or so games. Play style preference and tight play will make up just as much if you play a "traditional" version better. I know this probably isn't the answer you were looking for; but it is true. Fortunately, the "core" of devotion decks tend to start with the same 30-45 cards (especially if you include lands).
On the Walkers Version
The walkers list is by no means "perfect" but I have enjoyed the facts that:
A. It can come at the opponent from different angles (there's just a ton of good creature removal in the current meta due to Path (which is always around) and more importantly Terminate (which has spiked with the prevalence of Grixis builds). You can still win the a Wolf-Ran (Wolf-Runned? ) dork or token or by overrunning a board of tokens/dorks....or even just via attacks with 4/4 tramplers and 3/3's etc. the point it that while you can win with combat damage; you don't have too.
B. You infinite combos at your disposal. I recently won vs. a Collected Abzan deck the turn after it had "infinite life". Infinite life is not the same as infinite damage. Technically; you have to make a number. They could say they had a million life...so with Ugin or Wolf Run I just have to do a million and one.
I just like the idea of having an "oops I win" option in the deck; where from any position you can still win the game.
C. There is a lot of built-I'm advantage to walkers (they are always at least a 2-for-1). They may not always be a 2-for-1 that decides the outcome of a game (I.e. Cast a Garruk, make a 3/3 and then they bolt the Garruk....you basically just removed a bolt from their hand and cast a vanilla 3/3 die 4-mana)...but it's still a 2-for-1
On Traditional Green Devotion
Traditional Green Devotion has proven it can and does win! It has ample MTGO evidence to back it up. Until I start playing dailies; the only proof I have is my play/testing results (which really only matters to me and those who bejve me ). While I'm presenting factual data about my play with the deck; it still is only one person's evidence (and the evidence I get from those on here and tappedout that also play the deck and write to me).
You can't go wrong playing a more traditional version; and I think with the right sideboard it can be extremely modern-level competitive.
On the Sideboard
I've been having a lot of success with both Defense Grid and Damping Matrix...obviously not all decks can run Matrix (I.e. Tooth and Nail versions running both Arbor Elf and Viyaging Satyr); but what other sideboard tech are you finding most powerful?
I've always felt Green Devotion's toughest match ups were super-fast combo devks (due to our lack of interaction) and Control (they can just counter our "big" spells). Have you found the same?
In the past, I've loved the use of the leylines as we'll (in elves I used Leyline if Viality) and in my attempt at a "Stompy" Green Devotion deck I utilzed Leyline of Lifeforce. They are very specific; but also very powerful.
In my car, so I apologize if this is a little fragmented and the spelling is awful :). I'll clean it up when I get back to the office.
'Better' depends on the players and the matchup I'm afraid.
I recently had a lot of fun online with Temur Sabretooth, recurring Eternal Witness, casting 1 Garruk, legend ruling the other. Witness got the Garruk back, giving me a fresh 'Walker. All paid for by Nykhos, Shrine to Nyx which was untapped all the time by the 'new' Garruk. Elvish Visionary allowed me to draw the deck.
Great deck to play, not quite tournament-worhty if you play to win though.
The version wit more Planeswalker is more combo-control, but it's a strong endgame as well. Like the Elves as played by CVM, it all about snowballing. Cloudstone is important in CVM Elves and the Walkers deck. I can make weird loops with Temur Sabretooth + Elvish Visionary + Eternal Witness. Getting there (with enough devotion (mana)) is the trick. Snowballing (or creating velocity, similar to Pyromancer with cheap spells) is key in all versions.
Temur Sabertooth is a spectacular addition to any Green Devotion deck playing Eternal Witness and Elvish Visionary...I would go as far as to say that it would replace at least one card in the "Main" or "Traditional" Green Devotion deck. There is just so much offensive and defensive power in one card for a deck that can generate a lot of mana.
As an aside, I don't mean any negative connocation when I say "Traditional" Green Devotion. On the contrary; it is the most successful Green Devotion deck to date. I do think we need to (as a community) develop the most "agreed upon" Traditional Green Devotion deck (as GnuHouse brought up). I would assume the following make the cut:
If you assume 20-22 lands, there is generally a total of 50-52 cards most lists share...so there is a little leeway (and not everyone agrees on all of the above; but agrees on most of the above). There are of course numerous opinions from whether we should play BTE or not, to whether Tooth and Nail versions, Traditional Versions, or NyxWave versions are the best version of Green Devotion. Having said this, I would like to try to develop a relative consensus on each version as to the cards that are seen in nearly every version (like the "Core" of each version along with the cards that a player can choose from to fill in the "flex" spots from there.
I do think Devotion is going to see a resurgence in Modern soon; and I would like for our primer and thread to be completely organized and up to date for any new readers that are interested in playing the archetype. That, and it makes for a much more active and vibrant community for those of us who do play the archetype to discuss our choices within the "flex" spots and how each plays out in our respective metas.
On Sideboarding
Another area that we can improve upon is how Green Devotion sideboards. I've haven't had a ton of success with Beast Within and other 1-for-1 removal spells. There is a very specific subset of decks that greed devotion struggles with. Should we gear our board more towards fighting those?
On Walker Devotion Deck
So, a member of the TappedOut community (Ksong) made a really interesting observation when disscussing this deck...why was I playing Elvish Visionary instead of Courser of Kruphix?
My initial thought was, "beacuase that is how I've always done it...I always start with 4x Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, and Garruik Wildseaker because they are a "perfect" Core to a green devotion deck....but that is what is great about things like tappedout. You get ideas from people outside of yourself. The way the curve works, the bad match ups, etc. may actually lend itself better to playing Courser of Kruphix....I'm testing it now and have had enough success to post the decklist with it (as it appears the change most likely is going to stick):
I've been testing all weekend and am testing another several dozen games from now until 2:00 AM ish...so I'll let you know how it goes!
Random Food for Thought...
I recently made a Green Devotion deck with both [[Chancellor of the Tangle]] and [[Simian Spirit Guide]] that also utilized BTE (as with these two you can cast BTE on turn one, chain it into another 1-2 cards, etc.). It is certainly a glass cannon-feeling deck; but my God is it fast. Just throwing those two cards out there for anyone still in the "brewing" stage that wanted to try something crazy. I'll let you know if and when I seriously test the deck to see if could be viable; but I did want to throw the idea out there in the community just in case anyone wanted to go with it
I'll do my best to update the primer as we go to get this up-to-date so Green Devotion can rise again in Modern! I'm also going to play on some Dailies with the Walker deck to see if we can't get a little recognition there too.
...Personally I prefer G/w with just KotR for white to find Nyhktos more reliably. Then once the mana is running (the snowballing in this deck) it's almost academic which way you (ab)use it. Planeswalkers, Genesis Wave, chaining Primal Commands, going for the throat with Craterhoof,...
The nice part about this deck how well it handles B/G/x decks, which is a big part of the modern-meta (at least in my limited experience the matchup is good). Generally, it has a decent matchup against most fair decks but cannot handle unfair stuff.
Could not agree more! I have found that pretty much every version of Green Devotion destroys anything trying to play a "fair" game; and struggles against the fastest of the unfair decks (infect, twin, amulet, tron to a lesser extent, etc.). We are a half to full turn slower (albeit far more consistent and resilient); so unless they stumble to get their combo together by a turn or two (which happense); we can't win.
I'm finding more and more success with my "pure hate" artifacts/enchantments in the board. I currently run"
It seems a little "drastic", but literally don't board in anything at all against a few of the fair decks; and leave ample room for the unfair match ups. The match up is just so darn strong against fair decks that it seems sill Utilizing Enchantments and Walkers gives me the luxury to play Torpor Orb and Damping Matrix; but I'm sure there are other powerful options for creature-based green devotion.
Completely agree, our strategy is sooo strong against fair decks, I'm also exclusively going for "extreme" hate in my sideboard.
Defense Grid and Damping Matrix have been doing really well so far, with Spellskite being an absolute MVP (I go for the playset between main and side).
Akoya: main issue with your list is going out of gas. You'll see that every version has some draw, be it Elves/enchantments/Harmonize etc.
After briefly messing around with the Planeswalker Cloudstone Curio variant, extensively testing the more traditional (maybe) Genesis Wave Craterhoof Behemoth variant (including splashing white for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and trying a main board Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. ) I'm definitely enjoying the less combo-centric Gen wave deck.
The build I'm going to try next is a tiny bit skewed towards land destruction/disruption.
Plow Under and Primal Command have been absolutely back breaking in early turns, and not even bad mid-later game (as you are controlling their top-decks.) Especially against aggro variants (combined with Bonfire of the Damned) or burn you just run them out of gas.
I'll post a proper list later, but one of the interesting cards I've seen mentioned before that I'd like to try is Sowing Salt.
Feedback and tipps from experienced green Nykthos devotees would be highly appreciated
Thank you guys G
I LOVE the straight-forward, stompy nature of the deck. And you are going to rachet up devotion extremely fast! On top of that, Pytroclasm will not be nearly as rough on you as other devotion decks. Great deck!
My only suggestion would be to maybe reduce a few of the bigger options to 3-of's and replace them with some sort of card advantage. It could be Harmonize or in your case even Collected Company (as you have a LOT of targets for it). Devotion decks tend to burn through our hands; so it's nice to be able to refill them. You already have the best of the bunch in Genesis Wave; so even just finding a way to run 3x Collected Company and/or Harmonize and i think you are set.
Hi all, I've been working on a build that started as a tribal hydra deck and has since morphed into more generalized green-devotion battlecruiser build, currently centered around Primalcrux.
With Lightning bolt being such a ubiquitous, efficient, powerful, format defining spell it pains me a bit too see any significant part of my ramp that's effectively "Bolt Bait". It seems like this is really the Achilles heal of many ramp decks, with a very direct role in determining deck viability. For this reason I've been working on a devotion build that attempts to minimize reliance on boltable critters (other than Arbor Elf, his explosive synergy with Utopian Sprawl is too good to pass up), using Wall of Roots instead.
While we lose the ability to untap a land and really go bonkers with the ramp, WoR dodges Bolt, Anger of the Gods, & Pyroclasm until you've at least gotten a little mana out of it. Since it doesn't need to be tapped it can also chain with other 1-2 drop ramp pieces to help hit a T3 Primalcrux etc.
Overall, rather than ramping for 9+ mana for an explosive combo finish this deck aims to put out as many efficient, early 3-6 CMC beaters as possible, each one demanding their own response.
Right now I've got ~5 flexible spots in the deck and I'd love to get feedback from you on the best way to fill those slots.
Currently I'm splashing red for 3 Lightning Bolt and 2 Banefire MB to act as either removal or a burn finisher (was running Kessig Wolf Run but had to drop it to support GGGGGG for Primalcrux =/ ). However I could also splash black for Inquisition / Thoughtseize (pick out removal as extra fatty protection or disrupt opponent combo) or Abrupt Decay, splash white for Path and/or run KotR for more consistent Nykthos appearance, or could go all in on Green and accept poorer spot removal & SB options but save 3-5 life per game by ditching fetches/shocks.
Nearly all of this is just replacing Nissa with Kiora (and making the mana base work to make it easy to cast Kiora). The Eternal Witness's come into play because Kior's -2 ability makes you want to play more creatures, the ability can put a lot of cards into your yard you may wish to recur, and you don't need Nykthos to be a Forest for her to untap it (unlike Nissa).
The pros here are:
1. Kiora at 4-CMC is often a turn faster to cast than Nissa. Four is a relatively easy number to get to.
2. Kiora can untap a Nykthos
3. Kiora's -2 can draw you even more cards than you were before.
4. After you've hit the infinite mana combo; you have a means of ensuring you can draw into what you need (via Kiora's draw ability and Eternal Witness).
The cons are:
1. Arbor Elf can no longer untap a Nykthos with Nylea's Presence on it.
2. You lose the "beatdown" that Nissa's 4/4 tramplers could sometimes provide.
3. The mana base is a little more punishing.
4. You are more open to board wipes.
5. Kiora adds only 1-devotion (where Nissa added 2).
Kiora is superior in most ways to Nissa...the only question that remains is if the deck change requirements to play Kiora are worth it. Only time and testing will tell!
Any thoughts on Ruric Thar, the Unbowed as a 5th 6/6 body for further beatdown and preventing decks that play plenty of noncreature spells from doing their shenigans?
Hi all, I've been working on a build that started as a tribal hydra deck and has since morphed into more generalized green-devotion battlecruiser build, currently centered around Primalcrux.
With Lightning bolt being such a ubiquitous, efficient, powerful, format defining spell it pains me a bit too see any significant part of my ramp that's effectively "Bolt Bait". It seems like this is really the Achilles heal of many ramp decks, with a very direct role in determining deck viability. For this reason I've been working on a devotion build that attempts to minimize reliance on boltable critters (other than Arbor Elf, his explosive synergy with Utopian Sprawl is too good to pass up), using Wall of Roots instead.
While we lose the ability to untap a land and really go bonkers with the ramp, WoR dodges Bolt, Anger of the Gods, & Pyroclasm until you've at least gotten a little mana out of it. Since it doesn't need to be tapped it can also chain with other 1-2 drop ramp pieces to help hit a T3 Primalcrux etc.
Overall, rather than ramping for 9+ mana for an explosive combo finish this deck aims to put out as many efficient, early 3-6 CMC beaters as possible, each one demanding their own response.
Right now I've got ~5 flexible spots in the deck and I'd love to get feedback from you on the best way to fill those slots.
Currently I'm splashing red for 3 Lightning Bolt and 2 Banefire MB to act as either removal or a burn finisher (was running Kessig Wolf Run but had to drop it to support GGGGGG for Primalcrux =/ ). However I could also splash black for Inquisition / Thoughtseize (pick out removal as extra fatty protection or disrupt opponent combo) or Abrupt Decay, splash white for Path and/or run KotR for more consistent Nykthos appearance, or could go all in on Green and accept poorer spot removal & SB options but save 3-5 life per game by ditching fetches/shocks.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
I like the idea as a big fan of hydras and especially Kalonian Hydra.
While being powerful on his own, you may need a bit more workaround to get the best out of her. Let's say splash white instead of red, and with Gavony Township and Dromoka's command you get an alternate wincon as everything can grow out of control. (And depending on your meta Dromoka's can be an awesome card.) I'd also say if you want some removal go for PtE, there are too many things not reached by Bolt.
Otherwise I suggest not to play Polukranos, the lack of trample hurts too much. And his monstrosity ability isn't relevant in many matchups. For a similar effect, and as you alreday play red, Bonfire of the Damned is way superior.
You may also want one Genesis Hydra as an uncounterable tutor.
Let me know how you develop it and its matchups. HYDRA POWER !
I like the idea of replacing red with white here shelldell. As Gm13p suggested Dromoka's and path would be my go-to main deck replcements for bolt and banefire. I wouldn't however, cut the Polukranos. He is positively disgusting to untap with in a devotion list.
Which match ups have you found difficult? There are a couple of Hydra's (dependent on what's difficult for you) that might shore up those gaps. Alternatively, I wouldn't be averse to splashing a third colour to address those weaknesses. Devotion can easily splash 3 colours between shocks and Utopia Sprawls
For Polukranos the lack of trample can hurt, though Garruk Wildspeaker's very useable ultimate helps get around that (also helping the Leatherback Baloths). Polukranos has very much earned his 2x spots and I've seen decks that run 4x despite his legendary status. Depending upon what else I have in hand I may pass over his monstrous ability in favor of putting down a Kalonian or Primalcrux, but it's a wonderful option to have in a deck that's starved for creature removal.
Between Wall of Roots, Polukranos, and Leatherback Baloth I've got twelve different X/5 walls to drop – all as soon as T2 – to completely shut down ground based aggro while I ramp. The problem is that these don't do anything against flying. Affinity's quasi-flying Pestermites plus flying Vault Skirge & Ornithopters quickly become a problem if I don't have any way to take them out directly or take out their buffing Steel Overseer.
Other less common flying threats:
*Delver (3/2) is less common these days but still hurts
*Restoration Angel (3/4) by T4 we should be pretty well ramped so this isn't a big problem IMO
*Geist of Saint Traft (2/2 creating 4/4 Angel token)
I could SB Windstorm etc but Lightning bolt would answer most of these options and I like that a bit of burn could help finish a turn earlier since Primalcrux is usually ~14/14, so if my rampers and Baloths attack then +3 bolt damage may be the difference between finishing the opponent this turn or waiting another turn.
Aside from evasive aggro, anything with a lot of disruption or removal is going to be tricky. I expect Jund to be messy but haven't gotten a chance to play that yet. Board wipes are also going to be a problem.
I own a playset of Dromoka's Command and I like it but I don't think I'd ever Main Board it again since it's just a bit too situational for my tastes. The +1/+1 counter and fighting modes both need a heavier creature in play already to be truly valuable, enchantments are reasonably common but not ubiquitous, and the spell damage negation is somewhat situational, too. Compare this to K Command, where the discard & damage are pretty much always useful, and the other two modes are applicable quite often as well. So I'm not wildly excited by D Command but Path is always excellent.
Overall for those 5 flex slots I'm trying think about what will help me get my ramp established and keep it established, or bring me back from a losing state and buy me more time to do so, rather than what will help me win more after I'm set up. Lightning Bolt / Thoughtseize / Path fill that role IMO, though Banefire kinda feels like the latter atm. As mentioned Bonfire of the Damned could work though I'm rather lukewarm on the randomness of the miracle cost, whereas the unstoppable nature of Banefire makes it an exceptionally reliable finisher.
Finally, as for Utopia Sprawl I usually need to set that to green if I want to hit a T3-T4 Primalcrux (big payoff but big design cost, still evaluating him), so it's not terribly reliable as far as splashes go. I've been doing alright with 8 fetches and 2 G/R shocks though, so I might be able to do 8 fetches and two different shocks, 1x G/R + 1x G/W etc.
Dromoka's might not be the ticket you are looking for, and it depends on your meta, but in my experience four removal spells is not enough to race combo (unless, of course, you are going off faster than them a la Curdbros' elf and walker combo deck)
Twin, as an example, you must have an answer for, either a removal spell for the creature, or for the Twin. Abrupt decay is often my preferred method as it can't be answered, however without running black, path is the next best option (and cheaper) but on the basis you can only have 4 of those, I think Dromoka's is reasonable as with the ability on the stack, you can force them to sac the twin, and get double value by fighting the creature, or some other such. Against infect I can see a scenario where you fight their early creature to give yourself more time. Admittedly there are few other decks that run backbreaking enchantments but I can see the fight mode being useful against Grixis, Jund, Abzan decks, especially adding a +1/+1 counter to your baloth and slapping a Tasigur/Delvefish/Siege Rhino about.
I can't speak from experience of using it, (unfortunately as my Devotion deck is currently taken apart for some brewing projects)
Ultimately it probably depends on your meta, (and this is almost always the caveat whenever any advice is given) but path is almost certainly better than bolt.
One can also make an argument for Beast Within maindeck as well as this can hit Tron (on the play... good luck on the draw though) as well as many other threats, though the three mana can be restrictive at times.
Anyway, I would at least Try Dromoka's Command unless your meta is such that there is absolutely no need for it whatsoever
So I've been off Mono Green Devotion since the early part of the year, mostly because of trying new things (and, I tend not to stick with something for too too long before getting distracted by shiny new toys)
I think the below just about qualifies as a green devotion list, but it's horribly untested (hopefully i get my card order this weekend and can try it out at FNM
the theory, is to produce mana, activate your enchantments, and go to town beating face.
Not clever, not elegant, and not yet consistent, but i do see promise.
There are a few things i like about the deck.
Positives :
Lots of gg casting costs means lots of reliable nykthos mana.
deck appears like it can grind with incidental life gain from the leylines and Coursers adding up as well as uncounterability of creatures to challenge control decks.
resilient against spot removal
Negatives :
Still too fragile
Currently little removal
very weak to mass enchantment removal
I've tried white leylines as well / instead of, and it's just too awkward splitting the devotion up, so even though a white version probably exists, (and might be superior outside of the ramp MGD can give you) it's a totally different beast (and in fact may be even more controlling
Remember you? You mean the reason we have this lovely thread! For any of you who don't know (although I'm fairly certain it's in the Primer) GnuHouse actually created the first Green Decotion thread that has evolved to this thread
Thank you so much for the kind words. In just glad to hear they are helpful!
That's actually a really good question. I would say for newer players, my first reaction would be to play a more "traditional" green devotion deck (if there was such a thing ) because Cloudstone Curio can get complicated with triggers (especially off Waves) and when you are untapping lands multiple times a turn, drawing cards, and bouncing things with Cloudstone you often have to "think ahead" to what you may draw into....but to be honest, once you have the hang of it and a general understanding of how Cloudstone works and the fact that the walker trigger at sorcery speed (but with Priority) it's just a matter of playing enough games until you've experienced all of the smaller interactions the deck can offer. It's sounds way more complex than it is in real play (as you will only have so many choices in an actual game).
I perform better currently with the Walker list; but I think that is because (a) it fits my play style, (b) it's a little better suited for the current meta. There are also all kinds of factors that play into "win percentage" such a mulligans, how often you win the die roll, etc. also, the new mulligan rule could help "traditional" versions quite a bit (as hitting a BTE in your first draw instead of a land could mean you win a turn or even 2 turns earlier)! I'm excited to see how the new mulligan rule effects Devotion (I think it's very good for us). Which deck is "better" to me boils down to feel (when the numbers are close). For me, the Walker deck is superior. It is not so much so; however, that I would advise an experienced Tooth and Nail, Stompy, Traditional, or NyxWave devotion player to change over.
We're also talking percentages. If my win percentage is 69% instead of 62%; we're still talking one more win every 14 or so games. Play style preference and tight play will make up just as much if you play a "traditional" version better. I know this probably isn't the answer you were looking for; but it is true. Fortunately, the "core" of devotion decks tend to start with the same 30-45 cards (especially if you include lands).
On the Walkers Version
The walkers list is by no means "perfect" but I have enjoyed the facts that:
A. It can come at the opponent from different angles (there's just a ton of good creature removal in the current meta due to Path (which is always around) and more importantly Terminate (which has spiked with the prevalence of Grixis builds). You can still win the a Wolf-Ran (Wolf-Runned? ) dork or token or by overrunning a board of tokens/dorks....or even just via attacks with 4/4 tramplers and 3/3's etc. the point it that while you can win with combat damage; you don't have too.
B. You infinite combos at your disposal. I recently won vs. a Collected Abzan deck the turn after it had "infinite life". Infinite life is not the same as infinite damage. Technically; you have to make a number. They could say they had a million life...so with Ugin or Wolf Run I just have to do a million and one.
I just like the idea of having an "oops I win" option in the deck; where from any position you can still win the game.
C. There is a lot of built-I'm advantage to walkers (they are always at least a 2-for-1). They may not always be a 2-for-1 that decides the outcome of a game (I.e. Cast a Garruk, make a 3/3 and then they bolt the Garruk....you basically just removed a bolt from their hand and cast a vanilla 3/3 die 4-mana)...but it's still a 2-for-1
On Traditional Green Devotion
Traditional Green Devotion has proven it can and does win! It has ample MTGO evidence to back it up. Until I start playing dailies; the only proof I have is my play/testing results (which really only matters to me and those who bejve me ). While I'm presenting factual data about my play with the deck; it still is only one person's evidence (and the evidence I get from those on here and tappedout that also play the deck and write to me).
You can't go wrong playing a more traditional version; and I think with the right sideboard it can be extremely modern-level competitive.
On the Sideboard
I've been having a lot of success with both Defense Grid and Damping Matrix...obviously not all decks can run Matrix (I.e. Tooth and Nail versions running both Arbor Elf and Viyaging Satyr); but what other sideboard tech are you finding most powerful?
I've always felt Green Devotion's toughest match ups were super-fast combo devks (due to our lack of interaction) and Control (they can just counter our "big" spells). Have you found the same?
In the past, I've loved the use of the leylines as we'll (in elves I used Leyline if Viality) and in my attempt at a "Stompy" Green Devotion deck I utilzed Leyline of Lifeforce. They are very specific; but also very powerful.
In my car, so I apologize if this is a little fragmented and the spelling is awful :). I'll clean it up when I get back to the office.
Temur Sabertooth is a spectacular addition to any Green Devotion deck playing Eternal Witness and Elvish Visionary...I would go as far as to say that it would replace at least one card in the "Main" or "Traditional" Green Devotion deck. There is just so much offensive and defensive power in one card for a deck that can generate a lot of mana.
As an aside, I don't mean any negative connocation when I say "Traditional" Green Devotion. On the contrary; it is the most successful Green Devotion deck to date. I do think we need to (as a community) develop the most "agreed upon" Traditional Green Devotion deck (as GnuHouse brought up). I would assume the following make the cut:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary and/or Wistful Selkie
1x Temur Sabertooth
Enchantment
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
If you assume 20-22 lands, there is generally a total of 50-52 cards most lists share...so there is a little leeway (and not everyone agrees on all of the above; but agrees on most of the above). There are of course numerous opinions from whether we should play BTE or not, to whether Tooth and Nail versions, Traditional Versions, or NyxWave versions are the best version of Green Devotion. Having said this, I would like to try to develop a relative consensus on each version as to the cards that are seen in nearly every version (like the "Core" of each version along with the cards that a player can choose from to fill in the "flex" spots from there.
I do think Devotion is going to see a resurgence in Modern soon; and I would like for our primer and thread to be completely organized and up to date for any new readers that are interested in playing the archetype. That, and it makes for a much more active and vibrant community for those of us who do play the archetype to discuss our choices within the "flex" spots and how each plays out in our respective metas.
On Sideboarding
Another area that we can improve upon is how Green Devotion sideboards. I've haven't had a ton of success with Beast Within and other 1-for-1 removal spells. There is a very specific subset of decks that greed devotion struggles with. Should we gear our board more towards fighting those?
On Walker Devotion Deck
So, a member of the TappedOut community (Ksong) made a really interesting observation when disscussing this deck...why was I playing Elvish Visionary instead of Courser of Kruphix?
My initial thought was, "beacuase that is how I've always done it...I always start with 4x Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, and Garruik Wildseaker because they are a "perfect" Core to a green devotion deck....but that is what is great about things like tappedout. You get ideas from people outside of yourself. The way the curve works, the bad match ups, etc. may actually lend itself better to playing Courser of Kruphix....I'm testing it now and have had enough success to post the decklist with it (as it appears the change most likely is going to stick):
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Courser of Kruphix
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
3x Fertile Ground
2x Nylea's Presence
Planeswalkers
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Nissa, Worldwaker
2x Ugin, Spirit Dragon
1x Karn Liberated
3x Cloudstone Curio
3x Genesis Wave
Lands
8x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Stomping Ground
2x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Damping Matrix
2x Defense Grid
1x Pithing Needle
2x Primal Command
2x Privileged Position
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Spellskite
1x Torpor Orb
I've been testing all weekend and am testing another several dozen games from now until 2:00 AM ish...so I'll let you know how it goes!
Random Food for Thought...
I recently made a Green Devotion deck with both [[Chancellor of the Tangle]] and [[Simian Spirit Guide]] that also utilized BTE (as with these two you can cast BTE on turn one, chain it into another 1-2 cards, etc.). It is certainly a glass cannon-feeling deck; but my God is it fast. Just throwing those two cards out there for anyone still in the "brewing" stage that wanted to try something crazy. I'll let you know if and when I seriously test the deck to see if could be viable; but I did want to throw the idea out there in the community just in case anyone wanted to go with it
I'll do my best to update the primer as we go to get this up-to-date so Green Devotion can rise again in Modern! I'm also going to play on some Dailies with the Walker deck to see if we can't get a little recognition there too.
Could not agree more! I have found that pretty much every version of Green Devotion destroys anything trying to play a "fair" game; and struggles against the fastest of the unfair decks (infect, twin, amulet, tron to a lesser extent, etc.). We are a half to full turn slower (albeit far more consistent and resilient); so unless they stumble to get their combo together by a turn or two (which happense); we can't win.
I'm finding more and more success with my "pure hate" artifacts/enchantments in the board. I currently run"
1. Damping Matrix
2. Torpor Orb
3. Spellskite
4. Pithing Needle
5. Defense Grid
and am currently testing these options:
6. Trinisphere
7, Blood Moon
8, Ghostly Prison
It seems a little "drastic", but literally don't board in anything at all against a few of the fair decks; and leave ample room for the unfair match ups. The match up is just so darn strong against fair decks that it seems sill Utilizing Enchantments and Walkers gives me the luxury to play Torpor Orb and Damping Matrix; but I'm sure there are other powerful options for creature-based green devotion.
Defense Grid and Damping Matrix have been doing really well so far, with Spellskite being an absolute MVP (I go for the playset between main and side).
Akoya: main issue with your list is going out of gas. You'll see that every version has some draw, be it Elves/enchantments/Harmonize etc.
The build I'm going to try next is a tiny bit skewed towards land destruction/disruption.
Plow Under and Primal Command have been absolutely back breaking in early turns, and not even bad mid-later game (as you are controlling their top-decks.) Especially against aggro variants (combined with Bonfire of the Damned) or burn you just run them out of gas.
I'll post a proper list later, but one of the interesting cards I've seen mentioned before that I'd like to try is Sowing Salt.
Untapping an Arbor Elf AND a Nykthos seems quite strong
Precisely my first thoughts when I saw her Curdbros!
I LOVE the straight-forward, stompy nature of the deck. And you are going to rachet up devotion extremely fast! On top of that, Pytroclasm will not be nearly as rough on you as other devotion decks. Great deck!
My only suggestion would be to maybe reduce a few of the bigger options to 3-of's and replace them with some sort of card advantage. It could be Harmonize or in your case even Collected Company (as you have a LOT of targets for it). Devotion decks tend to burn through our hands; so it's nice to be able to refill them. You already have the best of the bunch in Genesis Wave; so even just finding a way to run 3x Collected Company and/or Harmonize and i think you are set.
Collected Company is actually a really intersting card when dealing with cards like Leatherback Baloth, Strangleroot Geist, Wistful Selkie, Boggart Ram-Gang and even Eternal Witness....that is a lot of card advantage and a TON of devotion for 4-mana at instant speed. Wow. So many options.
My lord she seems good.
With Lightning bolt being such a ubiquitous, efficient, powerful, format defining spell it pains me a bit too see any significant part of my ramp that's effectively "Bolt Bait". It seems like this is really the Achilles heal of many ramp decks, with a very direct role in determining deck viability. For this reason I've been working on a devotion build that attempts to minimize reliance on boltable critters (other than Arbor Elf, his explosive synergy with Utopian Sprawl is too good to pass up), using Wall of Roots instead.
While we lose the ability to untap a land and really go bonkers with the ramp, WoR dodges Bolt, Anger of the Gods, & Pyroclasm until you've at least gotten a little mana out of it. Since it doesn't need to be tapped it can also chain with other 1-2 drop ramp pieces to help hit a T3 Primalcrux etc.
Overall, rather than ramping for 9+ mana for an explosive combo finish this deck aims to put out as many efficient, early 3-6 CMC beaters as possible, each one demanding their own response.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/2000-heads-are-better-than-one/
Right now I've got ~5 flexible spots in the deck and I'd love to get feedback from you on the best way to fill those slots.
Currently I'm splashing red for 3 Lightning Bolt and 2 Banefire MB to act as either removal or a burn finisher (was running Kessig Wolf Run but had to drop it to support GGGGGG for Primalcrux =/ ). However I could also splash black for Inquisition / Thoughtseize (pick out removal as extra fatty protection or disrupt opponent combo) or Abrupt Decay, splash white for Path and/or run KotR for more consistent Nykthos appearance, or could go all in on Green and accept poorer spot removal & SB options but save 3-5 life per game by ditching fetches/shocks.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
1. Replace 3x Nissa, Worldwaker with 3x Kiora, Master of the Depths
2. Replace 2x Nylea's Presence with 2x Eternal Witness
2. Change up the mana base a little to add blue - replace 2x Forest, 1x Stomping Ground, and 1x Wooded Foothill with 2x Misty Rainforest and 2x Breeding Pool.
Nearly all of this is just replacing Nissa with Kiora (and making the mana base work to make it easy to cast Kiora). The Eternal Witness's come into play because Kior's -2 ability makes you want to play more creatures, the ability can put a lot of cards into your yard you may wish to recur, and you don't need Nykthos to be a Forest for her to untap it (unlike Nissa).
The pros here are:
1. Kiora at 4-CMC is often a turn faster to cast than Nissa. Four is a relatively easy number to get to.
2. Kiora can untap a Nykthos
3. Kiora's -2 can draw you even more cards than you were before.
4. After you've hit the infinite mana combo; you have a means of ensuring you can draw into what you need (via Kiora's draw ability and Eternal Witness).
The cons are:
1. Arbor Elf can no longer untap a Nykthos with Nylea's Presence on it.
2. You lose the "beatdown" that Nissa's 4/4 tramplers could sometimes provide.
3. The mana base is a little more punishing.
4. You are more open to board wipes.
5. Kiora adds only 1-devotion (where Nissa added 2).
Kiora is superior in most ways to Nissa...the only question that remains is if the deck change requirements to play Kiora are worth it. Only time and testing will tell!
the devotion count stays higher, you maintain all your walkers (except Ugin) as land untappers… (easier to go infinite with cheaper walkers..?
seems better in more instances than Karn/Ugin, though I'm not as familiar with the deck as you are?
I like the idea as a big fan of hydras and especially Kalonian Hydra.
While being powerful on his own, you may need a bit more workaround to get the best out of her. Let's say splash white instead of red, and with Gavony Township and Dromoka's command you get an alternate wincon as everything can grow out of control. (And depending on your meta Dromoka's can be an awesome card.) I'd also say if you want some removal go for PtE, there are too many things not reached by Bolt.
Otherwise I suggest not to play Polukranos, the lack of trample hurts too much. And his monstrosity ability isn't relevant in many matchups. For a similar effect, and as you alreday play red, Bonfire of the Damned is way superior.
You may also want one Genesis Hydra as an uncounterable tutor.
Let me know how you develop it and its matchups. HYDRA POWER !
Which match ups have you found difficult? There are a couple of Hydra's (dependent on what's difficult for you) that might shore up those gaps. Alternatively, I wouldn't be averse to splashing a third colour to address those weaknesses. Devotion can easily splash 3 colours between shocks and Utopia Sprawls
Between Wall of Roots, Polukranos, and Leatherback Baloth I've got twelve different X/5 walls to drop – all as soon as T2 – to completely shut down ground based aggro while I ramp. The problem is that these don't do anything against flying. Affinity's quasi-flying Pestermites plus flying Vault Skirge & Ornithopters quickly become a problem if I don't have any way to take them out directly or take out their buffing Steel Overseer.
Other less common flying threats:
*Delver (3/2) is less common these days but still hurts
*Restoration Angel (3/4) by T4 we should be pretty well ramped so this isn't a big problem IMO
*Geist of Saint Traft (2/2 creating 4/4 Angel token)
I could SB Windstorm etc but Lightning bolt would answer most of these options and I like that a bit of burn could help finish a turn earlier since Primalcrux is usually ~14/14, so if my rampers and Baloths attack then +3 bolt damage may be the difference between finishing the opponent this turn or waiting another turn.
Aside from evasive aggro, anything with a lot of disruption or removal is going to be tricky. I expect Jund to be messy but haven't gotten a chance to play that yet. Board wipes are also going to be a problem.
I own a playset of Dromoka's Command and I like it but I don't think I'd ever Main Board it again since it's just a bit too situational for my tastes. The +1/+1 counter and fighting modes both need a heavier creature in play already to be truly valuable, enchantments are reasonably common but not ubiquitous, and the spell damage negation is somewhat situational, too. Compare this to K Command, where the discard & damage are pretty much always useful, and the other two modes are applicable quite often as well. So I'm not wildly excited by D Command but Path is always excellent.
Overall for those 5 flex slots I'm trying think about what will help me get my ramp established and keep it established, or bring me back from a losing state and buy me more time to do so, rather than what will help me win more after I'm set up. Lightning Bolt / Thoughtseize / Path fill that role IMO, though Banefire kinda feels like the latter atm. As mentioned Bonfire of the Damned could work though I'm rather lukewarm on the randomness of the miracle cost, whereas the unstoppable nature of Banefire makes it an exceptionally reliable finisher.
Finally, as for Utopia Sprawl I usually need to set that to green if I want to hit a T3-T4 Primalcrux (big payoff but big design cost, still evaluating him), so it's not terribly reliable as far as splashes go. I've been doing alright with 8 fetches and 2 G/R shocks though, so I might be able to do 8 fetches and two different shocks, 1x G/R + 1x G/W etc.
Twin, as an example, you must have an answer for, either a removal spell for the creature, or for the Twin. Abrupt decay is often my preferred method as it can't be answered, however without running black, path is the next best option (and cheaper) but on the basis you can only have 4 of those, I think Dromoka's is reasonable as with the ability on the stack, you can force them to sac the twin, and get double value by fighting the creature, or some other such. Against infect I can see a scenario where you fight their early creature to give yourself more time. Admittedly there are few other decks that run backbreaking enchantments but I can see the fight mode being useful against Grixis, Jund, Abzan decks, especially adding a +1/+1 counter to your baloth and slapping a Tasigur/Delvefish/Siege Rhino about.
I can't speak from experience of using it, (unfortunately as my Devotion deck is currently taken apart for some brewing projects)
Ultimately it probably depends on your meta, (and this is almost always the caveat whenever any advice is given) but path is almost certainly better than bolt.
One can also make an argument for Beast Within maindeck as well as this can hit Tron (on the play... good luck on the draw though) as well as many other threats, though the three mana can be restrictive at times.
Anyway, I would at least Try Dromoka's Command unless your meta is such that there is absolutely no need for it whatsoever
So I've been off Mono Green Devotion since the early part of the year, mostly because of trying new things (and, I tend not to stick with something for too too long before getting distracted by shiny new toys)
I think the below just about qualifies as a green devotion list, but it's horribly untested (hopefully i get my card order this weekend and can try it out at FNM
the theory, is to produce mana, activate your enchantments, and go to town beating face.
Not clever, not elegant, and not yet consistent, but i do see promise.
There are a few things i like about the deck.
Positives :
Lots of gg casting costs means lots of reliable nykthos mana.
deck appears like it can grind with incidental life gain from the leylines and Coursers adding up as well as uncounterability of creatures to challenge control decks.
resilient against spot removal
Negatives :
Still too fragile
Currently little removal
very weak to mass enchantment removal
I've tried white leylines as well / instead of, and it's just too awkward splitting the devotion up, so even though a white version probably exists, (and might be superior outside of the ramp MGD can give you) it's a totally different beast (and in fact may be even more controlling
10x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Plains
4x Temple Garden
3x Windswept Heath
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Leyline of Lifeforce
4x Leyline of Vitality
4x Starfield of Nyx
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Arbor Elf
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
2x Genesis Hydra
4x Ghostly Prison
1x Greater Auramancy
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
Lots of cards not in there but under consideration like bow of nylea, worship, sphere of safety, oblivion ring, etc etc
I'm interested in your criticisms, as well as improvements.
tapped out link here in case you want to try a few hands, (not fussed about tapped out comments, so don't necessarily bother leaving any )