Hi guy, I'm a big land and combo fan and was thinking to buy in this fun deck.
But after watching today's PT broadcast, I'm a little bit worried. The host said (the play style of) this deck reminds him Second Sunrise.
I'm bit concerned about this deck getting banned. Is it highly possible?
No one can tell you, only WotC knows.
I tend not to think so, the deck is way less consistent, way more interactive (everyone plays creature removal and land destruction/discard/counters are common as well).
Teh finals really showed how inconsistent and easy to disrupt the deck really can be
Is it maybe time to talk about getting some Defense Grid in the sideboard.
Seems like Cavern is just not enough to get past counters, as it doesnt save Bloom, Pacts, Mind, Amulet etc.
If you want to beat one certain type of deck then you can certainly set up any deck and sideboard to do so, but that's not how you get to the finals of a Pro Tour. In fact Justin's list was set up to beat Abzan, which is exactly what it did.
Is it maybe time to talk about getting some Defense Grid in the sideboard.
Seems like Cavern is just not enough to get past counters, as it doesnt save Bloom, Pacts, Mind, Amulet etc.
If you want to beat one certain type of deck then you can certainly set up any deck and sideboard to do so, but that's not how you get to the finals of a Pro Tour. In fact Justin's list was set up to beat Abzan, which is exactly what it did.
I am aware his sideboard was very geared towards Abzan, hence why I am asking if maybe as a general sideboard plan, like if you were taking it to a GP or a local tournament, if Defense Grid should be consider for some sideboard slots.
Scapeshift, Twin and UWR control are all decks that run quite a bit of permission and are decks people will definitely run into at a NON-PT tournament.
Is it maybe time to talk about getting some Defense Grid in the sideboard.
Seems like Cavern is just not enough to get past counters, as it doesnt save Bloom, Pacts, Mind, Amulet etc.
If you want to beat one certain type of deck then you can certainly set up any deck and sideboard to do so, but that's not how you get to the finals of a Pro Tour. In fact Justin's list was set up to beat Abzan, which is exactly what it did.
I am aware his sideboard was very geared towards Abzan, hence why I am asking if maybe as a general sideboard plan, like if you were taking it to a GP or a local tournament, if Defense Grid should be consider for some sideboard slots.
Scapeshift, Twin and UWR control are all decks that run quite a bit of permission and are decks people will definitely run into at a NON-PT tournament.
Defense grid is certainly a very good sideboard card in basically any deck. The thing is 2 of the 3 games he straight up lost to Blood Moon. Most people run 3-4 Seals, and very geared up to fight Blood Moon whereas Justin (correctly) wasn't set up to do that. Usually we can fight through counter-magic effectively, except really in the case of Scapeshift/Twin which have a combo kill. But who's to say they don't just counter Defense Grid? I know that I've gone green-pact, they say fine assuming to counter the Titan, then drop a cavern and a titan and beat face accordingly. But Twin is also difficult because they can tap down Titans or lands repeatedly.
a hand without an amulet isnt necessarily bad. your main concern or at least mine tends to be making sure you either have a titan or a way to get a titan. In most instances you will have a way to ramp the mana it just might not be as explosive without the amulet.
Second reminder: DO NOT DISCUSS BANS IN THIS THREAD. This is against the Modern forum rules and I even explicitly warned people about it at the top of the page.
If you want to discuss bans, take it to the banlist discussion thread. Focus on deck development, tech, matchups, etc. here.
Defense Grid makes Blue Pacts cost more. I think that Cavern is good enough, Justin could have won that one game where he mulled to 5 but his opponent was holding not one, nor two, but three counters. Defense Grid also has to resolve itself, and costing two and being and artifact, it feeds both Spell Snare and Ancient Grudge. Swan Song, more Caverns, or basically anything else should be better.
why would you have pact of negation and defense grid in the deck at the same time?
as you point out one sort of defeats the purpose of the other.
besides in a control match up pact of negation might be the pact you side out as your opponent will have blue to pay for it. bring in spell pierce/dispel in it's place. i guess even defense grid.
just for the record i'm pretty sure Hive mind's copies aren't affect by defense grid, if any opponent bolts on there turn you get a copy of bolt without having to pay 3 extra.
Hey guys! What is your opinion on a sideboard where Unburial Rites replaces Leyline of Sanctity?
Been playing the deck with a three off of leylines for almost a year now and have never been happy with it, since i don't have it T1 most of the time and it's just a dead draw in the lategame.
Since the main reason we board it is Abzan, i think the replacement could be good enough.
Of course the burn matchup is game with the leyline, but i also like the Thragtusk as a sideboard slot.
Please share your thoughts about it and now fingers crossed for Cohen
As a little gimmick, check out the atchmnts. to see what happened to me yesterday
are you refering to a posted deck list with unburial rites in it?
i'm not sure i'd cut into leyline for unburial rites, but you can if you want. I prefer the 3 leyline in any discard/liliana match up.
about that image you posted, how did that turn 1 blood moon match up turn out?
i've had living end and affinity do that to me before and they lost because they didn't have enough gas to end the game, the blood moon was there golden play.
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they can be very situational, if you went all in on an early titan, if you didn't bounce lands correctly to leave up for the upkeep, you can't pact to stop anything that would spot remove titan. since we are talking control, they typically will have something nasty waiting for titan.
after turn 4 the risk of not having is far less likely.
funny idea, but I think the mana base can support it. using Memnarch 7 is a very do able ramp. after wards stealing peoples most threatening stuff seem very powerful, and its permanently stolen.
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Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I don't really ever use blue pact on opponent's turn, but of course it is possible to need to. I usually just use them to protect a Hive Mind kill, exactly how Justin was trying to use it too.
If we talk about a matchup like twin or scapeshift, holding blue pacts is key in those matchups. "Pure control" does not exist in modern.
by all means yes game 1, but games 2 and 3, sideboard really changes things up.
scapeshift could pay for a blue pact, (even green for that matter) hence why it sort of makes sense if one chose to side it out, as hive mind isn't at it's strongest in this match. what someone sides it out for can vary.
the niche in this match up where hive mind works is slaughter pacting your own plant tokens, to catch them on 1 black.
twin definitely agree on keeping blue pact in.
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I actually don't like that Bloom Titan is getting so much press right now. I used to love smoking chumps with my "*****ty deck". Now that people realize how good this deck really is, i'm sure more people will know how to play against us.
I also am not of fan of drawing attention to the fact that this deck can win t1-2 either, but oh well.
I guess at the end of the day congrats to anyone who finished, and has been doing well with the deck. While part of me dislikes the attention the deck is getting, another part of me is slightly happy at the affirmation of my deck judgement. I've been playing this deck for a looong time, despite people telling me it's not good enough. Well, here's proof over these last few months of Bloom Titan topping consistently, and certainly being good enough.
I agree, I've also had this deck for ages, since it first got a little attention ages ago..
But on the positive side, the deck has like trippled in price!
Artome - Cohen & Sam Black both did a deck tech. They said something along the lines of "I like having the option of a turn 1 win, but perhaps it shouldn't be in there at all". That's their view of it. I did see Cohen make 2 good plays with the SSG, making the 6th mana for a titan whilst allowing him to keep his slayers / boros untapped. I'm slightly biased towards SSG at present though.
Most interesting part of their lists was the sideboard. I've always dreaded both UR Twin and Abzan matches. I still think they're probably our worst 2, but their sideboard seemed really nicely tuned against Abzan. EE and Chalice both left the 75, and I can understand why. The chalice, though great in quite a few match-ups, is only great in the opener. How often is chalice realistically searched up for off a tolaria west? I can't remember the last time I did that. As a singleton card, I like it a lot less. EE on the other hand, may well be useful to tutor up, but I find slaughter pact often does a similar job. I also like that they dropped the 2nd Slaughter-Pact from the side. Though it is good against twin, I find myself siding in the seals more than the pacts, as well as swan song. I think Nature's Claim over Seal was a mistake on their part, and they did under-prepare for blood moon. It only cost them once, but it was in the final.
From what they have done, I'm considering a over-haul to my sideboard. The EE/Chalice will leave the deck, as will a slaughter pact. I'm thinking something like:
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Swan Song
2 Pyroclasm
1 Firespout (or maybe 2 of these, 1 pyro).
2 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Ruric Thar
Not quite as creature heavy as them, but still not far off!
I like that SB a lot better in a larger meta (basically a non-PT meta). I still think Defense Grid is worth a spot or two, especially with Twin winning a PT, more net-deckers are going to be jumping on it. I think maybe dropping a Thragtusk and the Swan Song for 2 Defense Grid is something I will be testing.
@ the increase in popularity, dont worry too much about it. The deck is way too hard/complex and inconsistent for 99% of players. They will try it out, loss miserably and then drop it like a rock. Even the WotC commentators were saying that they threw the deck together and tried to goldfish it 40ish times and they were so confused. Hell, I have 200+ games with the deck and I still find myself overwhelmed with the different choices/paths the deck can take. Watching Justin play in the Semis/Finals, there were quite a few times, I would have made different plays/different lines to get to the same plays. Obviously, he is prolly more skilled at the deck than me, but I think some of the lines might have worked out as well.
what do you think about a singleton leyline of sanctity instead of that ssg on the pro tour list? omnitell in legacy did this a long time ago, and this deck seem the right place with 3 more on sideboard
what do you think about a singleton leyline of sanctity instead of that ssg on the pro tour list? omnitell in legacy did this a long time ago, and this deck seem the right place with 3 more on sideboard
Don't you think that singleton Leyline will be just blank in most games ? It's good in your open hand and it's worse after every turn.
just like ssg, but can protect you sometimes agains junk
Heres to all the free-wins from people net-decking this and thinking they can just pick it up and win
this deck is not easy to pick up and win for sure.. there are so many decisions to make and it is probably one of the hardest deck to pilot at the moment considering there are so many things to take note during the game like all the mana, triggers and etc.. lol..
No one can tell you, only WotC knows.
I tend not to think so, the deck is way less consistent, way more interactive (everyone plays creature removal and land destruction/discard/counters are common as well).
Teh finals really showed how inconsistent and easy to disrupt the deck really can be
If you want to beat one certain type of deck then you can certainly set up any deck and sideboard to do so, but that's not how you get to the finals of a Pro Tour. In fact Justin's list was set up to beat Abzan, which is exactly what it did.
I am aware his sideboard was very geared towards Abzan, hence why I am asking if maybe as a general sideboard plan, like if you were taking it to a GP or a local tournament, if Defense Grid should be consider for some sideboard slots.
Scapeshift, Twin and UWR control are all decks that run quite a bit of permission and are decks people will definitely run into at a NON-PT tournament.
Defense grid is certainly a very good sideboard card in basically any deck. The thing is 2 of the 3 games he straight up lost to Blood Moon. Most people run 3-4 Seals, and very geared up to fight Blood Moon whereas Justin (correctly) wasn't set up to do that. Usually we can fight through counter-magic effectively, except really in the case of Scapeshift/Twin which have a combo kill. But who's to say they don't just counter Defense Grid? I know that I've gone green-pact, they say fine assuming to counter the Titan, then drop a cavern and a titan and beat face accordingly. But Twin is also difficult because they can tap down Titans or lands repeatedly.
If you want to discuss bans, take it to the banlist discussion thread. Focus on deck development, tech, matchups, etc. here.
why would you have pact of negation and defense grid in the deck at the same time?
as you point out one sort of defeats the purpose of the other.
besides in a control match up pact of negation might be the pact you side out as your opponent will have blue to pay for it. bring in spell pierce/dispel in it's place. i guess even defense grid.
just for the record i'm pretty sure Hive mind's copies aren't affect by defense grid, if any opponent bolts on there turn you get a copy of bolt without having to pay 3 extra.
are you refering to a posted deck list with unburial rites in it?
i'm not sure i'd cut into leyline for unburial rites, but you can if you want. I prefer the 3 leyline in any discard/liliana match up.
about that image you posted, how did that turn 1 blood moon match up turn out?
i've had living end and affinity do that to me before and they lost because they didn't have enough gas to end the game, the blood moon was there golden play.
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
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after turn 4 the risk of not having is far less likely.
late game defense grid and pact of negation conflict less and less if the lands accumulate as they should.
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funny idea, but I think the mana base can support it. using Memnarch 7 is a very do able ramp. after wards stealing peoples most threatening stuff seem very powerful, and its permanently stolen.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
by all means yes game 1, but games 2 and 3, sideboard really changes things up.
scapeshift could pay for a blue pact, (even green for that matter) hence why it sort of makes sense if one chose to side it out, as hive mind isn't at it's strongest in this match. what someone sides it out for can vary.
the niche in this match up where hive mind works is slaughter pacting your own plant tokens, to catch them on 1 black.
twin definitely agree on keeping blue pact in.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I agree, I've also had this deck for ages, since it first got a little attention ages ago..
But on the positive side, the deck has like trippled in price!
I like that SB a lot better in a larger meta (basically a non-PT meta). I still think Defense Grid is worth a spot or two, especially with Twin winning a PT, more net-deckers are going to be jumping on it. I think maybe dropping a Thragtusk and the Swan Song for 2 Defense Grid is something I will be testing.
@ the increase in popularity, dont worry too much about it. The deck is way too hard/complex and inconsistent for 99% of players. They will try it out, loss miserably and then drop it like a rock. Even the WotC commentators were saying that they threw the deck together and tried to goldfish it 40ish times and they were so confused. Hell, I have 200+ games with the deck and I still find myself overwhelmed with the different choices/paths the deck can take. Watching Justin play in the Semis/Finals, there were quite a few times, I would have made different plays/different lines to get to the same plays. Obviously, he is prolly more skilled at the deck than me, but I think some of the lines might have worked out as well.
Who would ever have seen the day.....
Heres to all the free-wins from people net-decking this and thinking they can just pick it up and win
just like ssg, but can protect you sometimes agains junk