I'm not very optimistic on new Karn's chances in either this deck or any other Tron variant. The problems of wishboards in general come at the very real expense of valuable SB space. A lot of times I feel like I'm struggling to find space for a 4th Claim or 4th Tusk I really want, so it feels annoying to have to shave down my SB from 15 to ~10 cards because I have to put a bunch of cards in my SB that I'm never intending to actually SB in.
I think that finding a way to put 4th O-Stone and 4th Wurm in the SB isn't that difficult. Some builds were already 3 Stone/3 Wurm/1 Dust, so that part I don't see as much a problem. The biggest problem I see is that it's really difficult to convert Karn into meaningful advantage the turn that he lands. The closest a 3-drop artifact comes to immediate impact is something like Ensnaring Bridge, but Ensnaring Bridge has a really big problem in that it's hard for us to empty our hand and Karn gives us more cards. That means T3 Bridge is backed by a 6-7 card hand and will only really stop Thing if you're lucky.
The "consistency" argument is kind of weird to me, because most builds don't currently play 4th Wurmcoil or 3rd-4th Ballista or copies of All Is Dust. Karn's extremely anemic in his immediate-impact if you treat him as a 7-drop. If you treat him as a 10-drop you do get instant Lattice combo, but the Lattice combo only works if your opponent can't immediately hit back for 3 damage with creatures or instants.
A lot of the same arguments remind me of when Planar Bridge was spoiled, and everyone was harping about "consistency." The problem is that Karn isn't himself tutorable, and he's not very playable w/o Tron active either (and doesn't help you get Tron). Like Bridge, he firmly is a "payoff" card. That means he's fighting with cards like extra copies of Wurmcoil or Ballista. A lot of his ability to toolbox is really stymied by the fact that he comes down pretty late in the context of Modern, so most of the time his -2 should just be grabbing payoffs instead of actual toolbox cards. Which kind of brings up the question, why not run more payoffs in his place? If I have 7 mana I could Karn+3-drop, but I could also just slam Wurmcoil or All Is Dust/Ballista, which are on average far more impactful threats.
I think there are 3 reasons to play this Karn in the end.
1. He's a 4-drop, so he's very playable in grindy games vs Trophy/Blood Moon.
2. He's a 10-mana win condition with Mycosynth in certain matchups.
3. Certain decks die to his static ability, even w/o Mycosynth.
I'm honestly not sure if that's worth the SB space of a ~5-card wishboard (which I think is a cost that's hard to overexaggerate). I think I could foresee running a couple copies in the SB with a Mycosynth, and then SBing out a limited number of artifacts that turn into a quasi-wishboard in addition to the Mycosynth for G2 and G3 in certain matchups. It's just annoying that the cards you'd SB out for a wishboard are cards you'd generally want to SB in to draw them (Crucible/Wurmcoil/O-Stone vs land disruption/grindy MUs). On the other hand, it's a very good hate piece vs decks like Whir and Affinity even w/o a wishboard, so it might be playable when you consider that factor.
Now, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't test it out, but I'm just trying to temper expectations, when we've seen this kind of hype before for several different cards.
I think Karn, the Great Creator is worth it if you put a Mycosynth Lattice in the wishboard. Shutting out all opposing lands, planeswalkers, and other activated abilities on permanents is pretty potent, and it can definitely help you stabilize. Even better, Gx Tron can often slam down both parts of the combo in the same turn. The Lattice combo is at its best against combo decks like UR Storm, though.
I got a few test games with Karn GC against UR Phoenix, and thank goodness I also put the 4th Oblivion Stone in the wishboard. Aggressive enough decks, such as UR Phoenix, force us to prioritize eliminating their dudes over preventing them from playing stuff for the rest of the game.
Lattice with Great Creator is definitely a strong combo, but I'm still skeptical that it's something we want to be doing. Please, share your list, I'd like to take a look.
The Witchbane Orb is rather to the untested side, and the Wurmcoil in the wishboard may end up being unnecessary or better off being a Walking Ballista.
The Conduit of Ruin plan may end up being completely subsumed by the Karn GC plan later. My main impetus of Conduit of Ruin was that Kozilek 2.0 was better than Newlamog against Burn, so I wanted to tutor for Kozi. I also thought that more consistent Turn 4 Newlamogs would be dandy. The Karn GC plan does more for cheaper, though.
I still like Kozilek 2.0, though; the additional draw has been great, even if the spell countering is only gravy.
@k0no: My post is not a dismissal of the idea of running the card entirely or shutting down the idea of testing. I'm asking the thread how it is good, after offering a hypothetical, brainstorming it myself and coming to the conclusion that it isn't. Obviously it's possible that a good configuration exists, or that there may be one in the future. I never said anything to the contrary, only that I don't think that is the case. If you think you can make it work, by all means, show us how.
I have been away from Tron for a while now (Switched to Jund and more interactive decks) but in preparation for some MCM Trials and MCM Series Frankfurt i intend to brush the dust off my Karns and give them another spin.
I am aware of the 61 cards maindeck but i think that All is Dust is worth the extra card.
Other than that, has some new tech appeared? I see a lot of lists running Surgicals but i have never really been sold on them in Tron. Are they really a big upgrade?
Surgical is good but not really an "upgrade" to Cage, if that's what you mean, because they're usually fighting for the same slots. They both just hedge against different things - Surgical has applications against Primeval Titan decks and the mirror while being worse against Dredge, whereas Cage is better against Dredge and does work against Counters Company and Elves. Of course you can play a split of both if it suits you.
There's already a discussion going on in the Tron reddit.
I think the card has potential.
Everyone else seems to disagree because it does not impact the board and you can spend your turn by playing a haymaker rather than this.
Anyhow i will give it a try as a 1 or 2-of in my sideboard.
Having tested the card on and off for about 6 months now, I've come to the point where I'm confident it doesn't deserve any slots in the deck. This is what I've believed all along, and I only continued trying it just because I felt a sense of entitlement insofar as winning the midrange matchup, as this has been the case for so long. In any event, Thragtusk is a much better card against the field, and I think if you're playing 4 with a Crucible of Worlds for example, the BG matchup is basically 50/50. And beyond that matchup, there are no Tier 1 or maybe even Tier 2 decks (depending on how you measure it) that you really want Tarmogoyf against, and particularly not over Thought-Knot Seer, which is usually cut to make room for it. It's simply a narrow card against the field that only gives you a leg up in a matchup that is already quite close, so it's just not a logical choice in an open meta. It's smarter to just accept that the BG matchup isn't easy now and take your points against the field elsewhere.
Quick question: Has anyone tested Spellskite recently? I've been looking at options for my SB and I'm thinking about running a few tests with this old friend.
So now that new Karn is properly spoiled, I have some thoughts. My first thought on seeing it, and the one that I really think could do something, is make as close as is reasonable to a SB of 15 different cards it can wish for, haymakers that normally wouldn't be good enough, but are backbreaking against specific decks. I'm thinking cmc 3 or less so they can be cast the turn it comes down. I REALLY don't like Lattice. it's a very cute interaction, but winning the game when we have 10 mana and access to anything we want out of the side is not something I really think Tron worries about. If I need a wincon, I can go get a sideboard Wurmcoil, or something else that won't be cute or spicy or novel, it will just beat their face in. I'm sure it will win the game, but that really isn't where we struggle, and I think we should focus on shoring up more difficult situations. On that note, here are some of my thoughts for the wishboard
Pithing Needle
Grafdiggers Cage
Crucible of Worlds
Spellskite
Torpor Orb
Wurmcoil Engine (not 3 or less, but it might be nice to not have to have it in against a combo deck that doesn't care about it)
O-stone
Defense Grid?
Ethersworn Canonist
Ratchet Bomb
just off the top of my head. what else?
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The fact that we're even discussing a colourless wishboard is just amazing haha.
Also just in case anyone was thinking about it, karn wrecks the mirror match and occasionally the Stony silence effect neuters a deck without needing to wish for anything.
Oh and (a trick from playing Sydri, galvanic genius in commander) you can animate opposing artifacts and then kill them with creature removal. Why is this relevant? Well..... I guess one of your wish targets could be liquimetal coating and you could use it like a rishadan port with karn's static ability, or destroy lands entirely with karn's +1 (which is a pretty good rate and seems viable), switch off planeswalkers for a turn, negate any permanent with an activated ability, or just kill them outright with creature removal by using karn's +1. Seems pretty versatile as an option actually.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'm still not sure about this new Karn, the fact that is does nothing when you cast really worries me.
I do want that the rumored new Ugin to be truth, that would be a 4 off. We'll see next week.
If by 'nothing' you mean 'puts the best sideboard card for the match up directly into your hand and then does a one-sided Stony Silence until they deal with it', then sure, it does nothing. I don't know what more people want from this card, they weren't going to put the minus of Liberated on it, but this is a 'win game 1 against the decks that you normally just go straight to game 2 and hope to draw sideboard stuff against'. We don't need more ways to close out the game, our haymakers are already some of the best ever printed, we needed a toolbox to get us to the late game. If I had been told 'design a card to make Tron better, just go nuts, I would be less excited about what I dreamed up than about this thing.
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Well, got my first taste of the new Mulligan rule and loved it. Went 4-1 tonight on mtgo, (taking a break from grinding Arena):
R1) 2-1 Win Vs Hardened Scales Affinity
R2) 2-0 Win Vs Affinity
R3) 2-0 Win vs Martyr Proc
R4) 2-1 Win Vs Eldrazi and Taxes
R5) 0-2 Loss Vs Ad Naus (Wings clipped, my 5-0 turned into a 4-1)
Deck felt great, the Ad Naus match up felt like it should, MEH. The wins over Hardened Scales and affinity were sweet! Eldrazi and Taxes was rough until I decided to bury my opponent under their own Arbitor via GQ, of course I found a way out of the lock and proceeded to ult Ugin.
I am waiting for Ugin to be spoiled, here's hoping we get a new toy to work with.
On New Karn: We can't play this card in our starting 60. The format is brutal right now, it's not feasible to play a T3 do nothing. I can see new Karn taking a few SB slots, but is better than what we already do well?
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I'm still not sure about this new Karn, the fact that is does nothing when you cast really worries me.
I do want that the rumored new Ugin to be truth, that would be a 4 off. We'll see next week.
If you fetch liquimetal coating with the minus ability, that's basically a stone rain/rishadan port ability. Not equivalent of course, but a similar effect on an opponent to Karn Liberated's -3. That's not nothing.
That's like... Level one. I think the key to evaluating this card appropriately is by taking an extensive look at all the things he *can* do and balancing them against the needs of the deck, what would go out for him to take a slot, what the metagame requires etc.
For instance, I'm quite keen on having the 4th o-stone in the side, along with a walking ballista. O-stone could (with a turn 3 new karn) be activated on turn four, same as usual. Having an extra 10+% likelihood of getting that crucial o-stone on the board could be valuable just in itself. All the other stuff is going to be a bonus.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Might Bond of Flourishing be playable in this deck as a filtering 2-mana cantrip (that grabs permanents only) that crucially gains 3 life, or would that add too many green cards to the deck?
I think that finding a way to put 4th O-Stone and 4th Wurm in the SB isn't that difficult. Some builds were already 3 Stone/3 Wurm/1 Dust, so that part I don't see as much a problem. The biggest problem I see is that it's really difficult to convert Karn into meaningful advantage the turn that he lands. The closest a 3-drop artifact comes to immediate impact is something like Ensnaring Bridge, but Ensnaring Bridge has a really big problem in that it's hard for us to empty our hand and Karn gives us more cards. That means T3 Bridge is backed by a 6-7 card hand and will only really stop Thing if you're lucky.
The "consistency" argument is kind of weird to me, because most builds don't currently play 4th Wurmcoil or 3rd-4th Ballista or copies of All Is Dust. Karn's extremely anemic in his immediate-impact if you treat him as a 7-drop. If you treat him as a 10-drop you do get instant Lattice combo, but the Lattice combo only works if your opponent can't immediately hit back for 3 damage with creatures or instants.
A lot of the same arguments remind me of when Planar Bridge was spoiled, and everyone was harping about "consistency." The problem is that Karn isn't himself tutorable, and he's not very playable w/o Tron active either (and doesn't help you get Tron). Like Bridge, he firmly is a "payoff" card. That means he's fighting with cards like extra copies of Wurmcoil or Ballista. A lot of his ability to toolbox is really stymied by the fact that he comes down pretty late in the context of Modern, so most of the time his -2 should just be grabbing payoffs instead of actual toolbox cards. Which kind of brings up the question, why not run more payoffs in his place? If I have 7 mana I could Karn+3-drop, but I could also just slam Wurmcoil or All Is Dust/Ballista, which are on average far more impactful threats.
I think there are 3 reasons to play this Karn in the end.
1. He's a 4-drop, so he's very playable in grindy games vs Trophy/Blood Moon.
2. He's a 10-mana win condition with Mycosynth in certain matchups.
3. Certain decks die to his static ability, even w/o Mycosynth.
I'm honestly not sure if that's worth the SB space of a ~5-card wishboard (which I think is a cost that's hard to overexaggerate). I think I could foresee running a couple copies in the SB with a Mycosynth, and then SBing out a limited number of artifacts that turn into a quasi-wishboard in addition to the Mycosynth for G2 and G3 in certain matchups. It's just annoying that the cards you'd SB out for a wishboard are cards you'd generally want to SB in to draw them (Crucible/Wurmcoil/O-Stone vs land disruption/grindy MUs). On the other hand, it's a very good hate piece vs decks like Whir and Affinity even w/o a wishboard, so it might be playable when you consider that factor.
Now, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't test it out, but I'm just trying to temper expectations, when we've seen this kind of hype before for several different cards.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Here's my current (Cockatrice) Mono-G Tron list:
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Forest
Creatures
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Conduit of Ruin
1 World Breaker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 Walking Ballista
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Thragtusk
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Nature's Claim
The Witchbane Orb is rather to the untested side, and the Wurmcoil in the wishboard may end up being unnecessary or better off being a Walking Ballista.
The Conduit of Ruin plan may end up being completely subsumed by the Karn GC plan later. My main impetus of Conduit of Ruin was that Kozilek 2.0 was better than Newlamog against Burn, so I wanted to tutor for Kozi. I also thought that more consistent Turn 4 Newlamogs would be dandy. The Karn GC plan does more for cheaper, though.
I still like Kozilek 2.0, though; the additional draw has been great, even if the spell countering is only gravy.
@k0no: My post is not a dismissal of the idea of running the card entirely or shutting down the idea of testing. I'm asking the thread how it is good, after offering a hypothetical, brainstorming it myself and coming to the conclusion that it isn't. Obviously it's possible that a good configuration exists, or that there may be one in the future. I never said anything to the contrary, only that I don't think that is the case. If you think you can make it work, by all means, show us how.
I have been away from Tron for a while now (Switched to Jund and more interactive decks) but in preparation for some MCM Trials and MCM Series Frankfurt i intend to brush the dust off my Karns and give them another spin.
Right now this is the list i am tinkering with:
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Ground
4 Fores
2 Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Walking Ballista
4 Expedition map
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 All is Dust
3 Nature's Claim
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thragtusk
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Warping Wail
I am aware of the 61 cards maindeck but i think that All is Dust is worth the extra card.
Other than that, has some new tech appeared? I see a lot of lists running Surgicals but i have never really been sold on them in Tron. Are they really a big upgrade?
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
Not a bad card ...
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I think the card has potential.
Everyone else seems to disagree because it does not impact the board and you can spend your turn by playing a haymaker rather than this.
Anyhow i will give it a try as a 1 or 2-of in my sideboard.
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Eggs are a huge part of our Engine and Trinisphere hurts that a lot...
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
Having tested the card on and off for about 6 months now, I've come to the point where I'm confident it doesn't deserve any slots in the deck. This is what I've believed all along, and I only continued trying it just because I felt a sense of entitlement insofar as winning the midrange matchup, as this has been the case for so long. In any event, Thragtusk is a much better card against the field, and I think if you're playing 4 with a Crucible of Worlds for example, the BG matchup is basically 50/50. And beyond that matchup, there are no Tier 1 or maybe even Tier 2 decks (depending on how you measure it) that you really want Tarmogoyf against, and particularly not over Thought-Knot Seer, which is usually cut to make room for it. It's simply a narrow card against the field that only gives you a leg up in a matchup that is already quite close, so it's just not a logical choice in an open meta. It's smarter to just accept that the BG matchup isn't easy now and take your points against the field elsewhere.
Pithing Needle
Grafdiggers Cage
Crucible of Worlds
Spellskite
Torpor Orb
Wurmcoil Engine (not 3 or less, but it might be nice to not have to have it in against a combo deck that doesn't care about it)
O-stone
Defense Grid?
Ethersworn Canonist
Ratchet Bomb
just off the top of my head. what else?
Other good CMC3 or less artifacts you may consider if you go with a Wishboard route.
If you're considering CMC4+ cards you can also include:
I added a * to the ones I find more interesting.
Also just in case anyone was thinking about it, karn wrecks the mirror match and occasionally the Stony silence effect neuters a deck without needing to wish for anything.
Oh and (a trick from playing Sydri, galvanic genius in commander) you can animate opposing artifacts and then kill them with creature removal. Why is this relevant? Well..... I guess one of your wish targets could be liquimetal coating and you could use it like a rishadan port with karn's static ability, or destroy lands entirely with karn's +1 (which is a pretty good rate and seems viable), switch off planeswalkers for a turn, negate any permanent with an activated ability, or just kill them outright with creature removal by using karn's +1. Seems pretty versatile as an option actually.
I do want that the rumored new Ugin to be truth, that would be a 4 off. We'll see next week.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
If by 'nothing' you mean 'puts the best sideboard card for the match up directly into your hand and then does a one-sided Stony Silence until they deal with it', then sure, it does nothing. I don't know what more people want from this card, they weren't going to put the minus of Liberated on it, but this is a 'win game 1 against the decks that you normally just go straight to game 2 and hope to draw sideboard stuff against'. We don't need more ways to close out the game, our haymakers are already some of the best ever printed, we needed a toolbox to get us to the late game. If I had been told 'design a card to make Tron better, just go nuts, I would be less excited about what I dreamed up than about this thing.
R1) 2-1 Win Vs Hardened Scales Affinity
R2) 2-0 Win Vs Affinity
R3) 2-0 Win vs Martyr Proc
R4) 2-1 Win Vs Eldrazi and Taxes
R5) 0-2 Loss Vs Ad Naus (Wings clipped, my 5-0 turned into a 4-1)
Deck felt great, the Ad Naus match up felt like it should, MEH. The wins over Hardened Scales and affinity were sweet! Eldrazi and Taxes was rough until I decided to bury my opponent under their own Arbitor via GQ, of course I found a way out of the lock and proceeded to ult Ugin.
I am waiting for Ugin to be spoiled, here's hoping we get a new toy to work with.
On New Karn: We can't play this card in our starting 60. The format is brutal right now, it's not feasible to play a T3 do nothing. I can see new Karn taking a few SB slots, but is better than what we already do well?
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
If you fetch liquimetal coating with the minus ability, that's basically a stone rain/rishadan port ability. Not equivalent of course, but a similar effect on an opponent to Karn Liberated's -3. That's not nothing.
That's like... Level one. I think the key to evaluating this card appropriately is by taking an extensive look at all the things he *can* do and balancing them against the needs of the deck, what would go out for him to take a slot, what the metagame requires etc.
For instance, I'm quite keen on having the 4th o-stone in the side, along with a walking ballista. O-stone could (with a turn 3 new karn) be activated on turn four, same as usual. Having an extra 10+% likelihood of getting that crucial o-stone on the board could be valuable just in itself. All the other stuff is going to be a bonus.
Looks really strong to me, I would consider one MD and maybe more.
Could be a 4 of ?
What do you think ?