A query for the veterans...I've really enjoyed playing Tron these past few months and have tried out most of the color combinations. I understand the deck well now...the only thing I could never fully understand was, why World Breaker? Out of all the possible cards in the Magic universe, why is this particular one chosen? I see that it has high toughness and has reach, can remove a permanent of certain types and can come back from the graveyard...but does this make it the best possible choice for the slot?
Not that I don't think the card is good, I am just a little surprised that it is viewed as the best possible option.
It's just a really versatile card that does things that your other cards in that mana slot (Karn/Wurmcoil) can't do. The cast trigger is really important against UWx when they're holding up a counter for your Karn or Wurmcoil, and you still get value if they Path it. It's the best card against Affinity other than O-Stone because it kills their best thing and can block anything. Similar scenario against Boggles and Eldrazi Tron. Against Hollow One it can kill the eponymous creature/Blood Moon and still block their Phoenix. It's the best card in the mirror along with Karn. Etc. And the recursion ability is just gravy.
Also, this is fairly corner case, but a surprising amount of people don't realize the card has Reach, I guess because of how the keyword is positioned in the textbox. I must have had a dozen Insectile Abberations fly directly into my World Breaker over the time when that matchup existed.
decent reasons.
i've been running 1x sundering titan in that slot for some time, to attack the meta in a slightly different way. For the record, I currently play (and have always wanted to play) Red-Green Tron, which naturally has better matchups against affinity and so can afford to run a slightly off-kilter singleton (like S-Titan) in that flex slot.
To support this titan, I also run 1x tutorable Cavern of Souls. It's insane against control and also really good against the innumerable three-colour decks which exist in the format.
Yes, actually I 5-0d a league recently with 2 copies, you can find it on Goldfish. That being said, I cut the second copy shortly after in favor of another Spatial Contortion. The 2 copies were a reaction to seeing lots of Ponza, but that's basically the only scenario where I think 2 is necessary. Having one copy is super useful though, as you mention against Control and Taxes, but also in the mirror and against Jund. Against Control you don't care if they counter it, you can just dredge it back. Same with Jund, even if they make you discard it you can just dredge it back. It's definitely the type of card that can steal games.
1 copy is solid, and it's better than Crucible of Worlds because of the recursion (even though dredging isn't ideal for us). It can't get hit with artifact destruction and it isn't a nonbo with Oblivion Stone either. The only downside to Loam is that it isn't searchable off of Stirrings, but chances are you want another land or a threat anyway.
Last week I tried a pseudo-GB list with 2 Llanowar Wastes main (3 Forests) and 2 Dismembers, along with a basic Swamp and Thoughtseize/Brutality in the side. I liked it a lot and I wanted to see if anyone has tried a list like this, a bit like the list from the relatively recent Hareruya article. You get the mono-Green consistency in game 1 with some phenomenal sideboard cards against rough matchups like spell-based combo and burn in game 2/3. I'm not sure if I want to run Blooming Marsh or not, but the Llanowar Wastes didn't punish me so I'm inclined to stick with those.
Not sacrificing your draw step to use the land recursion more than once is a big upside for Crucible over Loam. Horizon Canopy is basically a nonbo with Loam, whereas with Crucible, it's two cards per turn if you are flooding out. Because of both the draw loss and the mana required to recast Loam repeatedly, Sanctum loops often work better with Crucible as well. This leads me to feel that Crucible is a bit better as a proactive card. And yes, as a singleton, there have been multiple times where the ability to hit it off of Stirrings has been relevant (even game-breaking), so it's important not to discount this. On the other hand, if I have the mana to crack an O-Stone and survive for a few more turns, I doubt I'm lamenting losing a Crucible to allow that to happen.
That's not to say that Crucible is objectively better than Loam. As several people have mentioned here, Loam is definitely more resilient. The dredge can on occasion allow for more lands to come back to your hand at once as well, even setting up some better sequences because of it (though at the cost of a draw). Ponza on the play with good lines can also keep you from hitting three available mana, let alone seven, so Loam has a chance to keep you in the game when Crucible might not be enough.
If Broken Bond becomes adopted into lists to keep tempo and combat hate like Blood Moon, Stony Silence, and Damping Sphere (for starters), it definitely plays nicer with Loam than Crucible.
So which is better? Frankly, that's up to you. The way I play, I'm more about Crucible right now, but Loam definitely has its merits. The point is that they are similar enough, yet have enough distinct pros and cons (and this post is by no means comprehensive), that calling one or the other objectively better shouldn't be how we look at this. Use the one best suited to your meta and play style, but remember the other one is available if the proverbial tides shift.
Last week I tried a pseudo-GB list with 2 Llanowar Wastes main (3 Forests) and 2 Dismembers, along with a basic Swamp and Thoughtseize/Brutality in the side. I liked it a lot and I wanted to see if anyone has tried a list like this, a bit like the list from the relatively recent Hareruya article. You get the mono-Green consistency in game 1 with some phenomenal sideboard cards against rough matchups like spell-based combo and burn in game 2/3. I'm not sure if I want to run Blooming Marsh or not, but the Llanowar Wastes didn't punish me so I'm inclined to stick with those.
Personally I haven't felt any need to stray from mono green lately. The spell based-combo decks that the black cards help against are at an extremely low ebb right now. Valakut and Ad Nauseam are virtually non-existent. Storm is easy to beat with the 75 mono green has access to, and while Collective Brutality is nice to have against Burn, it's only a slight upgrade and that deck isn't seeing much play right now either anyway. I think GB is a totally fine choice if you want the versatility, but I just don't think it's necessary right now given the variance you add to the manabase, even if it is quite small. At some point the damage from your Llanowar Wastes will kill you, at some point you'll draw the Swamp when you need a Forest, at some point you'll get strip mined because you don't have a 4th basic in g1, etc. Just my experience from tons of grinding on MTGO lately and crushing it with mono green.
Thanks for the replies, I definitely shouldn't discount Crucible over Loam even though I prefer Loam as they both have big upside for helping us recover. I've never played with Horizon Canopy but a card drawing engine with that + Crucible would be pretty insane.
Personally I haven't felt any need to stray from mono green lately. The spell based-combo decks that the black cards help against are at an extremely low ebb right now. Valakut and Ad Nauseam are virtually non-existent. Storm is easy to beat with the 75 mono green has access to, and while Collective Brutality is nice to have against Burn, it's only a slight upgrade and that deck isn't seeing much play right now either anyway. I think GB is a totally fine choice if you want the versatility, but I just don't think it's necessary right now given the variance you add to the manabase, even if it is quite small. At some point the damage from your Llanowar Wastes will kill you, at some point you'll draw the Swamp when you need a Forest, at some point you'll get strip mined because you don't have a 4th basic in g1, etc. Just my experience from tons of grinding on MTGO lately and crushing it with mono green.
I'm glad to hear mono green has been doing well, and it's certainly been putting up the most results lately, I just value the black sideboard options locally and haven't made the jump yet. There's an invitational coming up and I'm thinking of trying it there for the consistency but I'd like to test it some first. Do you run any Dismembers, multiple Ballistas, or any Spatial Contortions? Spot removal is the one area of mono green I can never decide on.
I wonder what you guys think of 19 lands vs 20 lands? I've been doing 20 lately in GB so I can jam an extra forest but I'm not sure if it's correct. It's great for games where I'm trying to make drops turns 1-6 to hardcast tusk or wormcoil but I feel like I'm also drawing to many of them a lot of the time.
@Sinister_Minister this is what I'm currently running. Spatial Contortion has been so good in this Humans-heavy meta that I recently bumped it up to 3 copies, but that's kinda my flex slot atm.
Went up to 4 Relics to combat the now ubiquitous Hollow One deck. Also now maindecking Scavenger Grounds in lieu of the 2nd Ghost Quarter, with tremendous results. It's won me a bunch of game 1's against graveyard decks I would otherwise have had no business winning. Being able to tutor for that effect is crazy powerful, and I rarely feel like I'm missing the second GQ in this meta.
@bradstone 20 lands is a lot I think. In many matchups I go down to 18 post-board. I could see having access to 20 post-board but maindeck that doesn't seem correct to me.
I think 20 is really hard to justify in the post-Eye era. Even most 2-color Tron builds can fit 2-3 MD and 0-1 SB basics in 19. Running such a high density of lands is a real risk when we essentially are running 8 extra “dead draws” (Scryings + Maps) late game if we don’t already have a way to trigger our Sanctum, as well as 8 redraws that essentially increase that concentration.
I’m not sure if that calculus will remain the same post-Dampening Sphere, but right now I don’t want to go past 19 (with a possible 20th SB).
Love the card, but I don't think it belongs in Gx Tron, so it seems our feelings are similar here.
Slivortal, welcome back!
Went 4-0 last FNM; 2-0 the mirror, 2-1 Gifts Storm, 2-0 Ponza (lol), 2-1 GW Taxes/Valuetown hybrid. Local meta's predictable enough to know a pair of Spatial Contortion serves better at the moment than Dismember where I play; need to test squarely against decks like Hollow One and GDS to see how badly I miss Dismember, because Contortion feels much better for me at that slot. Had the third Ulamog, but didn't feel like that copy made the deck more consistent (though my playtest time has been brief with it). Once DOM is legal, I'll bring a Relic to the main instead to make room for the 2-2 split of Nature's Claim and Broken Bond to hedge against Damping Sphere while everyone is trying them out.
Karplusan Forest, Burst Lightning and Lightning Bolt are all in the main deck.
Karplusan Forest is "Budget Grove of the Burnwillows" for GR builds.
Bolt MB is not that uncommon for GR, I've used that myself, but Burst Lightning is a first. List is nice, thought it seems a little heavy on colored spells MB.
4-0 tonight; 2-0 Kiki Moon, 2-0 Humans, 2-0 Esper Control, 2-0 Lantern Control. Still running 3 Ulamog with 2 Spatial Contortion in the main. Walking Ballista was a house tonight. Just two more weeks until Damping Sphere is legal, so I'm enjoying this before pretty much everyone jams them.
Hi all. I'm looking to pick up Tron and this thread is a great resource that I'll be wading through in the coming weeks. I do have one immediate question however as I'd like to play this deck at the LGS (unknown meta) this coming week: what would you sub in place of the 4th Karn? I only own 3 and can't bring myself to shell out for the 4th right now.
I'm thinking of trying either a Sundering Titan or a second All Is Dust. A fourth Wurmcoil or third Ballista are also options I have if the Tron gurus here think that's not terrible either.
Thanks in advance for the advice!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBG Atraxa Superfriends WRBG Saskia's Angry UBRG Yidris Valuetown WUBR Breya "not just for infinite combos anymore" Etherium Shaper
mana]W[/mana]UR Narset the Nerfed WBG Ghave counters madness BRG Prossh, Token Master UBG Tasigur Seedborn Control WU Brago Bouncy Castle WB Karlov Voltron B Erebos/Drana MBC R Feldon jank
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
decent reasons.
i've been running 1x sundering titan in that slot for some time, to attack the meta in a slightly different way. For the record, I currently play (and have always wanted to play) Red-Green Tron, which naturally has better matchups against affinity and so can afford to run a slightly off-kilter singleton (like S-Titan) in that flex slot.
To support this titan, I also run 1x tutorable Cavern of Souls. It's insane against control and also really good against the innumerable three-colour decks which exist in the format.
Has anyone tried life from the loam in their sb ? If so do you like it ?
Im thinking its brought in against control but it may just get countered all the time.
Seems a little fringe to bring in against g/r land destruction which leaves control or taxes variants.
Thoughts and comments
I can definitely see its potential.
Thanks for the reply.
Last week I tried a pseudo-GB list with 2 Llanowar Wastes main (3 Forests) and 2 Dismembers, along with a basic Swamp and Thoughtseize/Brutality in the side. I liked it a lot and I wanted to see if anyone has tried a list like this, a bit like the list from the relatively recent Hareruya article. You get the mono-Green consistency in game 1 with some phenomenal sideboard cards against rough matchups like spell-based combo and burn in game 2/3. I'm not sure if I want to run Blooming Marsh or not, but the Llanowar Wastes didn't punish me so I'm inclined to stick with those.
That's not to say that Crucible is objectively better than Loam. As several people have mentioned here, Loam is definitely more resilient. The dredge can on occasion allow for more lands to come back to your hand at once as well, even setting up some better sequences because of it (though at the cost of a draw). Ponza on the play with good lines can also keep you from hitting three available mana, let alone seven, so Loam has a chance to keep you in the game when Crucible might not be enough.
If Broken Bond becomes adopted into lists to keep tempo and combat hate like Blood Moon, Stony Silence, and Damping Sphere (for starters), it definitely plays nicer with Loam than Crucible.
So which is better? Frankly, that's up to you. The way I play, I'm more about Crucible right now, but Loam definitely has its merits. The point is that they are similar enough, yet have enough distinct pros and cons (and this post is by no means comprehensive), that calling one or the other objectively better shouldn't be how we look at this. Use the one best suited to your meta and play style, but remember the other one is available if the proverbial tides shift.
Personally I haven't felt any need to stray from mono green lately. The spell based-combo decks that the black cards help against are at an extremely low ebb right now. Valakut and Ad Nauseam are virtually non-existent. Storm is easy to beat with the 75 mono green has access to, and while Collective Brutality is nice to have against Burn, it's only a slight upgrade and that deck isn't seeing much play right now either anyway. I think GB is a totally fine choice if you want the versatility, but I just don't think it's necessary right now given the variance you add to the manabase, even if it is quite small. At some point the damage from your Llanowar Wastes will kill you, at some point you'll draw the Swamp when you need a Forest, at some point you'll get strip mined because you don't have a 4th basic in g1, etc. Just my experience from tons of grinding on MTGO lately and crushing it with mono green.
Miren, the Moaning Well
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I'm glad to hear mono green has been doing well, and it's certainly been putting up the most results lately, I just value the black sideboard options locally and haven't made the jump yet. There's an invitational coming up and I'm thinking of trying it there for the consistency but I'd like to test it some first. Do you run any Dismembers, multiple Ballistas, or any Spatial Contortions? Spot removal is the one area of mono green I can never decide on.
Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Dismember
1 All Is Dust
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
2 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Spatial Contortion
2 Warping Wail
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Thragtusk
@bradstone 20 lands is a lot I think. In many matchups I go down to 18 post-board. I could see having access to 20 post-board but maindeck that doesn't seem correct to me.
I’m not sure if that calculus will remain the same post-Dampening Sphere, but right now I don’t want to go past 19 (with a possible 20th SB).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1031017#online
Karplusan Forest, Burst Lightning and Lightning Bolt are all in the main deck.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Slivortal, welcome back!
Went 4-0 last FNM; 2-0 the mirror, 2-1 Gifts Storm, 2-0 Ponza (lol), 2-1 GW Taxes/Valuetown hybrid. Local meta's predictable enough to know a pair of Spatial Contortion serves better at the moment than Dismember where I play; need to test squarely against decks like Hollow One and GDS to see how badly I miss Dismember, because Contortion feels much better for me at that slot. Had the third Ulamog, but didn't feel like that copy made the deck more consistent (though my playtest time has been brief with it). Once DOM is legal, I'll bring a Relic to the main instead to make room for the 2-2 split of Nature's Claim and Broken Bond to hedge against Damping Sphere while everyone is trying them out.
Karplusan Forest is "Budget Grove of the Burnwillows" for GR builds.
Bolt MB is not that uncommon for GR, I've used that myself, but Burst Lightning is a first. List is nice, thought it seems a little heavy on colored spells MB.
I'm thinking of trying either a Sundering Titan or a second All Is Dust. A fourth Wurmcoil or third Ballista are also options I have if the Tron gurus here think that's not terrible either.
Thanks in advance for the advice!
WUBG Atraxa Superfriends
WRBG Saskia's Angry
UBRG Yidris Valuetown
WUBR Breya "not just for infinite combos anymore" Etherium Shaper
mana]W[/mana]UR Narset the Nerfed
WBG Ghave counters madness
BRG Prossh, Token Master
UBG Tasigur Seedborn Control
WU Brago Bouncy Castle
WB Karlov Voltron
B Erebos/Drana MBC
R Feldon jank