Still quite keen on some number of pyroclasm potentially. I'll have to look around at what needs killing. That magic 3 toughness might push me into bolt territory.
Which of the cards do you most use (according to the meta) and in what quantities ?
I currently use 1 Pyroclasm and 2 Kozilek's Return on the main deck, as the Kozilek's Return in addition to being tutored by Ancient Stirrings, and be Instant, it helps against HUMANS or MERFOLKS who are more than 3 Toughness whith his "flashback" ability.
why do we run fatal push in the mainboard? i was gonna cut them and mainboard 3 collective brutality. but it seems like most lists mainboard the push. i was never impressed with push
Should we bring in ravenous trap against mardu pyromancer? I am boarding: -1 w-breaker, -1 ulamog, -2 fatal push // +3 thrag + 1 c-brutality. Should i take out ugins to make room for trap?
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Fatal push is a lot better than the cheap red creature interaction, it hits Baral, Death Shadow, Thought-Knot Seer, Master of Etherium, Tarmogoyf etc. Lightning bolt/Firespout/Kozilek's Return/Pyroclasm does none of these things.
That said, the fact that storm plays 4 Baral makes we want to play Lightning Bolt over Pyroclasm/Kozilek's return if I were playing the red version. They can easily turn 3 kill you on the play, Firespout is too slow on the draw.
Basically, the cheap interaction just needs to buy you time against creature decks before you can Ugin/O-stone them on turn 4. You wouldn't be able to hold a pyroclasm in hand against counters company if they had devoted druid in play, so again bolt is better in this matchup too.
Currently running 3x Pyroclasm. But I need to run some tests with Kozilek's Return, the format is a bit slower nowadays so it might work better.
I played a 2/2 Split at GP Madrid and the Return did some work for me. The fact that it is not actually "cast" from you graveyard means it's safe from counterspells against DS. Against decks with Thought-Knot Seers it felt a bit mediocre though as you had to waste the mana to get it in the grave first... But the again, Pyroclasm does nothing at all in this MU.
why do we run fatal push in the mainboard? i was gonna cut them and mainboard 3 collective brutality. but it seems like most lists mainboard the push. i was never impressed with push
Push just destroys creatures. Brutality is a good SB card against Burn, Storm and other linear decks. MD Push kill Death's Shadow, Thought-Knot Seer, Baral and other cheap, relevant creatures at instant speed. The instant speed is also decent as it allows you to stay mana efficient.
Should we bring in ravenous trap against mardu pyromancer? I am boarding: -1 w-breaker, -1 ulamog, -2 fatal push // +3 thrag + 1 c-brutality. Should i take out ugins to make room for trap?
No. Ravenous Trap will never be hardcast (Double colored mana costs are a big red flag for tron!) and i don't see why it would be good in this MU. You exile what? Lingering Souls? I can't think of any other graveyard shenanigans they play...
Also Ugin simply wins you the match on his own. Jam Ugin Turn 4, tick down once and you're set to win. It's a fair token deck after all.
Taking the question of Phelpssan, I've seen a lot of discussions about whether Blood Sun should play, on the Sideboard or Main Deck, you guys testing the card, what do you think ?
Taking the question of Phelpssan, I've seen a lot of discussions about whether Blood Sun should play, on the Sideboard or Main Deck, you guys testing the card, what do you think ?
Should BS be side or main ?
Surely sideboard :S
Against any aggro decks or storm it does precisely nothing. It's the definition of deck-specific hate.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'm asking because it's been underwhelming on my own testing, mainly because I'm not siding it up in enough matchups to justify the SB slots. It's great against Scapeshift, Affinity, and the occasional deck that tries to GQ lock you with Ramunap Excavator, but other than I don't usually board it in. We can fight occasional GQs easily enough without it, and T3 is too slow to lock down fetch-heavy decks.
But maybe I'm missing something and undervaluing it, which is why I'm asking for opinions. Right now it feels like a great tool to have for specific metas, but not a must-have inclusion for the SB.
I'm asking because it's been underwhelming on my own testing, mainly because I'm not siding it up in enough matchups to justify the SB slots. It's great against Scapeshift, Affinity, and the occasional deck that tries to GQ lock you with Ramunap Excavator, but other than I don't usually board it in. We can fight occasional GQs easily enough without it, and T3 is too slow to lock down fetch-heavy decks.
But maybe I'm missing something and undervaluing it, which is why I'm asking for opinions. Right now it feels like a great tool to have for specific metas, but not a must-have inclusion for the SB.
That sounds about right. I'd evaluate it as maybe a 2-3 of, if I was considering those GQ ramunap and titanshift/scapeshift matchups as particularly important. In those metas this card will shine.
Replacing itself is worth mentioning. Reduces the opportunity cost quite significantly for running a piece of hate.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I have not picked up any copies yet so i can't speak from experience.
I would not think that BS is as good as we make it out to be in Scapeshift/Valakut MUs. Most lists play Scapeshift/Breach and those play card like Woodfall Primus after SB. As far as i know they also bring it in frequently to deal with Karns and the like. Not cutting them off green so they can't go for Pact into Primus seems like a big deal...
I have not picked up any copies yet so i can't speak from experience.
I would not think that BS is as good as we make it out to be in Scapeshift/Valakut MUs. Most lists play Scapeshift/Breach and those play card like Woodfall Primus after SB. As far as i know they also bring it in frequently to deal with Karns and the like. Not cutting them off green so they can't go for Pact into Primus seems like a big deal...
Are we playing the same format? I've never seen Woodfall Primus in paper or online. Maybe in some of the breach decks, but most decks I've seen over the last 3 months have been all-in Titanshift (including my deck )
Blood Sun is good against: UW/Jeskai Control (shuts off Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin for UW, and most Jeskai lists play a lot of fetches and hurting controls tempo/land drops is a game winner), Affinity (shuts off manlands), and Titanshift. It's alright against DS (they can't play life off of lands + turns fetches into dead draws), but it might be too slow. I like it over Pyroclasm though.
Walking Ballista has been really impressive in my testing, there's virtually no situation I draw it and say "I'm unhappy about that", so I'll be testing two without any Worldbreakers. I'll miss the extra cast triggers, but I still have 2x Ulamog for that, and I'm NOT going to miss the clunkiness of the green cost in that card.
No Blood Sun in the SB at least for now, for the reasons I mentioned above. Still open to discussions about this, though.
EE + Lightning Bolt + Warping Wail in the SB has been really interesting in aggro matchups, which are usually a weak point for us. Combined with Pyroclasm it gives me a ton of low-cost interaction and lets me play control from the beginning. With TKS and Thragtusk I can even transform the deck in a version that doesn't really need Tron assembled for anything.
I have not picked up any copies yet so i can't speak from experience.
I would not think that BS is as good as we make it out to be in Scapeshift/Valakut MUs. Most lists play Scapeshift/Breach and those play card like Woodfall Primus after SB. As far as i know they also bring it in frequently to deal with Karns and the like. Not cutting them off green so they can't go for Pact into Primus seems like a big deal...
I haven't seen Woodfall primus in any lists, but they have access to Nature's Claim and Reclamation Sage to deal with Blood Sun. But in my testing it usually buys us a couple of turns to drop Karn/Ulamog, which is fine.
And sometimes they don't bring those in, which forces them into the Titan beatdown plan, which is a LOT easier to deal with.
Hoogland played a league with RG Tron and 3 MB Blood Sun recently, here’s what (Limited) conclusions I’ve drawn from that and our own testing with the exact same list against our gauntlet (Affinity, Living End, Jund, Storm, Jeskai, and Grixis Deaths Shadow)
1. On the play, the card is significantly stronger. Against all of the decks that weren’t Storm and Living End, a t3 Blood Sun was effective at bottlenecking mana in 7/20 matches (we put the card into hand on curve even if present in hand already). Two matches it shut the opponent off fetchlands long enough to be game-ending on its own.
2. On the draw, the only decks it was any kind of helpful Against were Affinity, Jeskai, and Jund (eliminate manlands, Jeskai’s LD Lands). Grixis deaths shadow had already deployed their lands and threats by t3, although one match it did keep them off third land long enough to cast Karn and subsequently eliminate threats and then their B sources. Overall would not keep it on the draw against any non-Scapeshift and non-Taxes decks.
3. Drawing a card definitely mitigates the opportunity cost of Blood Sun, there were games when cantripping even though there was already one in play was the best decision, instead of cracking a mana rock on the blind (excessive mana available situations)
Overall, playing 3 Blood Sun over some of the interaction almost felt like it streamlined the deck, and there were a few matches where it shut off Field of Ruins//Ghost Quarter just in time to assemble tron and start executing the game plan. Of course a strong conclusion can’t be reached from our testing, but I think if the card has any home in this deck it is going to be in the MB.
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I'd probably trade the third Warping Wail in your board for a single copy of World Breaker. That card is too good in too many matches to completely omit from the list, and your three Lightning Bolts plus the pairs of EE and Wail are probably fine to cover your removal bases.
With no Blood Sun, Pithing Needle, Sorcerer's Spyglass, or Surgical Extraction to fight against GQ-style land hate, and only two basics, you're exposed a bit against UW Control, D&T, Stevens-style GW Company, and any number of decks that just decide to jam them.
I'd probably trade the third Warping Wail in your board for a single copy of World Breaker. That card is too good in too many matches to completely omit from the list, and your three Lightning Bolts plus the pairs of EE and Wail are probably fine to cover your removal bases.
When I see a Ballista I'll ask myself "would you rather have a World Breaker here" and see how it goes, but I don't think the answer is going to be "yes" very often. At the very least I want to test this setup, and since I don't have any major tournaments coming up it's a good time to be more "experiemental".
With no Blood Sun, Pithing Needle, Sorcerer's Spyglass, or Surgical Extraction to fight against GQ-style land hate, and only two basics, you're exposed a bit against UW Control, D&T, Stevens-style GW Company, and any number of decks that just decide to jam them.
I'm OK with that. I never liked Needle or Spyglass for handling targeted LD, we're rather good on rebuilding and the current SB lets me lower the curve with cheap removal + TKS/Thragtusk so I'm not as reliant on Tron assembled. As for Blood Sun, I didn't feel it was worth the slots in my initial testing, but I'll hold my final judgment until we get more feedback from other people.
The decks I most like world breaker Against are: TitanShift, Jeskai, Grixis Deaths Shadow, and the mirror.
It’s also potent against every fair Midrange deck, although we don’t struggle there by any means.
TitanShift: t3 karn can still lose the game to a titan. Following him up with a World breaker makes that much less likely.
Jeskai: even if they counter World breaker, you’re going to get to use his cast trigger again and again. They have to have path, and a path directed at him is a path not being directed at Ulamog - not to mention you can begin constraining their White sources.
Grixis Deaths Shadow: they don’t play creature counters so it’s infinitely easier to resolve a world breaker than it is to resolve a karn or ugin. Once you eliminate their Blue source, your walker is free to come down. Not that it’s a hard MU to begin with, but I like worldbreaker more than Ballista (can’t be fatal pushed)
Just some thoughts on it
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Back about 3 years ago I built tron, played it once and sold the deck. Well I traded in infect for the deck again, this time g/b tron so hopefully like it more.
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Great question, I would also like to know according to the current meta, which of these cards do you guys like the most: Pyroclasm, Kozilek's Return, Lightning Bolt and Firespout.
Which of the cards do you most use (according to the meta) and in what quantities ?
I currently use 1 Pyroclasm and 2 Kozilek's Return on the main deck, as the Kozilek's Return in addition to being tutored by Ancient Stirrings, and be Instant, it helps against HUMANS or MERFOLKS who are more than 3 Toughness whith his "flashback" ability.
That said, the fact that storm plays 4 Baral makes we want to play Lightning Bolt over Pyroclasm/Kozilek's return if I were playing the red version. They can easily turn 3 kill you on the play, Firespout is too slow on the draw.
Basically, the cheap interaction just needs to buy you time against creature decks before you can Ugin/O-stone them on turn 4. You wouldn't be able to hold a pyroclasm in hand against counters company if they had devoted druid in play, so again bolt is better in this matchup too.
I played a 2/2 Split at GP Madrid and the Return did some work for me. The fact that it is not actually "cast" from you graveyard means it's safe from counterspells against DS. Against decks with Thought-Knot Seers it felt a bit mediocre though as you had to waste the mana to get it in the grave first... But the again, Pyroclasm does nothing at all in this MU.
Push just destroys creatures. Brutality is a good SB card against Burn, Storm and other linear decks. MD Push kill Death's Shadow, Thought-Knot Seer, Baral and other cheap, relevant creatures at instant speed. The instant speed is also decent as it allows you to stay mana efficient.
No. Ravenous Trap will never be hardcast (Double colored mana costs are a big red flag for tron!) and i don't see why it would be good in this MU. You exile what? Lingering Souls? I can't think of any other graveyard shenanigans they play...
Also Ugin simply wins you the match on his own. Jam Ugin Turn 4, tick down once and you're set to win. It's a fair token deck after all.
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
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GElvesG
Should BS be side or main ?
Surely sideboard :S
Against any aggro decks or storm it does precisely nothing. It's the definition of deck-specific hate.
I'm asking because it's been underwhelming on my own testing, mainly because I'm not siding it up in enough matchups to justify the SB slots. It's great against Scapeshift, Affinity, and the occasional deck that tries to GQ lock you with Ramunap Excavator, but other than I don't usually board it in. We can fight occasional GQs easily enough without it, and T3 is too slow to lock down fetch-heavy decks.
But maybe I'm missing something and undervaluing it, which is why I'm asking for opinions. Right now it feels like a great tool to have for specific metas, but not a must-have inclusion for the SB.
That sounds about right. I'd evaluate it as maybe a 2-3 of, if I was considering those GQ ramunap and titanshift/scapeshift matchups as particularly important. In those metas this card will shine.
Replacing itself is worth mentioning. Reduces the opportunity cost quite significantly for running a piece of hate.
I would not think that BS is as good as we make it out to be in Scapeshift/Valakut MUs. Most lists play Scapeshift/Breach and those play card like Woodfall Primus after SB. As far as i know they also bring it in frequently to deal with Karns and the like. Not cutting them off green so they can't go for Pact into Primus seems like a big deal...
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
Are we playing the same format? I've never seen Woodfall Primus in paper or online. Maybe in some of the breach decks, but most decks I've seen over the last 3 months have been all-in Titanshift (including my deck )
Blood Sun is good against: UW/Jeskai Control (shuts off Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin for UW, and most Jeskai lists play a lot of fetches and hurting controls tempo/land drops is a game winner), Affinity (shuts off manlands), and Titanshift. It's alright against DS (they can't play life off of lands + turns fetches into dead draws), but it might be too slow. I like it over Pyroclasm though.
2x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Sanctum of Ugin
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
Planeswalker (6)
4x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Artifact (17)
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Chromatic Star
4x Expedition Map
3x Oblivion Stone
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Pyroclasm
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Walking Ballista
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Nature's Claim
2x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Thragtusk
3x Warping Wail
Walking Ballista has been really impressive in my testing, there's virtually no situation I draw it and say "I'm unhappy about that", so I'll be testing two without any Worldbreakers. I'll miss the extra cast triggers, but I still have 2x Ulamog for that, and I'm NOT going to miss the clunkiness of the green cost in that card.
No Blood Sun in the SB at least for now, for the reasons I mentioned above. Still open to discussions about this, though.
EE + Lightning Bolt + Warping Wail in the SB has been really interesting in aggro matchups, which are usually a weak point for us. Combined with Pyroclasm it gives me a ton of low-cost interaction and lets me play control from the beginning. With TKS and Thragtusk I can even transform the deck in a version that doesn't really need Tron assembled for anything.
I haven't seen Woodfall primus in any lists, but they have access to Nature's Claim and Reclamation Sage to deal with Blood Sun. But in my testing it usually buys us a couple of turns to drop Karn/Ulamog, which is fine.
And sometimes they don't bring those in, which forces them into the Titan beatdown plan, which is a LOT easier to deal with.
1. On the play, the card is significantly stronger. Against all of the decks that weren’t Storm and Living End, a t3 Blood Sun was effective at bottlenecking mana in 7/20 matches (we put the card into hand on curve even if present in hand already). Two matches it shut the opponent off fetchlands long enough to be game-ending on its own.
2. On the draw, the only decks it was any kind of helpful Against were Affinity, Jeskai, and Jund (eliminate manlands, Jeskai’s LD Lands). Grixis deaths shadow had already deployed their lands and threats by t3, although one match it did keep them off third land long enough to cast Karn and subsequently eliminate threats and then their B sources. Overall would not keep it on the draw against any non-Scapeshift and non-Taxes decks.
3. Drawing a card definitely mitigates the opportunity cost of Blood Sun, there were games when cantripping even though there was already one in play was the best decision, instead of cracking a mana rock on the blind (excessive mana available situations)
Overall, playing 3 Blood Sun over some of the interaction almost felt like it streamlined the deck, and there were a few matches where it shut off Field of Ruins//Ghost Quarter just in time to assemble tron and start executing the game plan. Of course a strong conclusion can’t be reached from our testing, but I think if the card has any home in this deck it is going to be in the MB.
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I'd probably trade the third Warping Wail in your board for a single copy of World Breaker. That card is too good in too many matches to completely omit from the list, and your three Lightning Bolts plus the pairs of EE and Wail are probably fine to cover your removal bases.
With no Blood Sun, Pithing Needle, Sorcerer's Spyglass, or Surgical Extraction to fight against GQ-style land hate, and only two basics, you're exposed a bit against UW Control, D&T, Stevens-style GW Company, and any number of decks that just decide to jam them.
When I see a Ballista I'll ask myself "would you rather have a World Breaker here" and see how it goes, but I don't think the answer is going to be "yes" very often. At the very least I want to test this setup, and since I don't have any major tournaments coming up it's a good time to be more "experiemental".
I'm OK with that. I never liked Needle or Spyglass for handling targeted LD, we're rather good on rebuilding and the current SB lets me lower the curve with cheap removal + TKS/Thragtusk so I'm not as reliant on Tron assembled. As for Blood Sun, I didn't feel it was worth the slots in my initial testing, but I'll hold my final judgment until we get more feedback from other people.
It’s also potent against every fair Midrange deck, although we don’t struggle there by any means.
TitanShift: t3 karn can still lose the game to a titan. Following him up with a World breaker makes that much less likely.
Jeskai: even if they counter World breaker, you’re going to get to use his cast trigger again and again. They have to have path, and a path directed at him is a path not being directed at Ulamog - not to mention you can begin constraining their White sources.
Grixis Deaths Shadow: they don’t play creature counters so it’s infinitely easier to resolve a world breaker than it is to resolve a karn or ugin. Once you eliminate their Blue source, your walker is free to come down. Not that it’s a hard MU to begin with, but I like worldbreaker more than Ballista (can’t be fatal pushed)
Just some thoughts on it
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