I'm not convinced Alpine Moon is the only way to fight Tron and the like. If we are tempted to run counterspells anyway and have interaction with artifacts, I feel like 2x Ceremonious Rejection could fit very well. That's what I'm currently running.
It leads to sharper plays but also synergizes with the deck, and that's a big plus in my book. Now I'm giving up a weapon VS Amulet and Valakut, but add another VS colorless decks. Certainly a meta call...
If Valakut isn't an issue this is a valid plan. If Valakut is an issue then Alpine Moon is the best we have. Disdainful Stroke is another option but 2cmc is rough to hold up if you ever need to cast 3 spells in your main phase to recur a Phoenix.
PS. How do counterspells synergise with the deck? I actually think the opposite. Sure you can sit on a TiTi and tick down 1 counter a turn by casting a counterspell, but we don't actually have enough cheap countermagic to do this.
Counterspells work fine VS Combo and Ramp decks, because those decks are proactive, so there's always something to counter on their main phase. It's way worse VS Control and Midrange.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
hi! i'm new with this archetype and i would like to ask how this deck fare against "enchantment" based graveyard hate like void and rip?
i'm very specific with "enchantment" since red has access to abrade/ thanks in advance!
That's a reason to run Crackling Drake over Reveler. Your SB should contain a few more threats that ignore graveyard hate as well : Reasearch, Kiln Fiend, Bitterblossom, whatever that can go fast or grind, well you get the point.
Green and white are splashes that help in that regard. I don't think there's a good enough reson to splash green over white, so in white you have Wear // Tear and Nahiri, the Harbinger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
hi! i'm new with this archetype and i would like to ask how this deck fare against "enchantment" based graveyard hate like void and rip?
i'm very specific with "enchantment" since red has access to abrade/ thanks in advance!
It hurts, but you can still play around it. Thing in the Ice ignores that kind of hate, you have a ton of bolts, and you can always hardcast Phoenixes for some flying damage.
Reveler is pretty much dead against those cards, though. If you're expecting a lot those you should either replace it with Cracking Drake, or keep some alternative threats in the SB to swap in against those decks: Crackling Drake, Kiln Field and Young Pyromancer are fine options to consider.
Also, remember that you can counter RIP with the Charm.
@headminerve and Phelpssan, thanks! this archetype is really new to me, you're answer provides a different approach from what i've used to in dredge archetype (claim, trophy, etc) and this gives me a new insight about sideboarding, thank you!
How does this deck do against hardening scales or bant spirits? The archetype in general. Thanks!
I'm still relatively new with this deck, but my feeling so far is that both of Scales and Spirits have trouble if a Thing in the Ice sticks, but they are a bit favored otherwise, as our removal suite is not ideal against them.
Post-board it gets a little better thanks to Anger and more removal.
Just got my Phoenixs in the mail the other day. Waiting for a few more things, but I'm looking to use Mirriam's list as a starting point and move from there. Looks like there have been several possible iterations on this deck, from more speed to better grind. Still trying to figure out how I want to build, but speed is never a bad idea.
I have been playing Runaway Red but have all but the Scalding Tarns for the Izzet version. Won FNM the first time I played and went 3-1 the second time after walking into mainboarded Nihil Spellbombs. Deck is pretty fun!
Anyone have an idea for the Izzet manabase without Scalding Tarns? Unfortunately they are not in the cards (thank you, thank you very much) during the holiday season. Maybe something like:
I would probably play Shivan Reef before Sulfur Falls in this deck. With only 18 lands, and 4 more being Spirebluff Canal, you’re going to have to mulligan more hands where your only lands are Sulfur Falls/Spirebluff Canal. Shivan Reef might eat some of your life, but it will never come into play tapped.
I would probably play Shivan Reef before Sulfur Falls in this deck. With only 18 lands, and 4 more being Spirebluff Canal, you’re going to have to mulligan more hands where your only lands are Sulfur Falls/Spirebluff Canal. Shivan Reef might eat some of your life, but it will never come into play tapped.
Can confirm, played with Shivan Reef for a while, not that different from Scalding Tarns in overall performance. I kept track for some games, and in average it was +1/-1 life from what I would have lost with fetches+shocks, though I felt you had less *control* over the lifeloss.
Also, knowing that whatever you scry bottom will stay there can be interesting depending on your cantrip setup. Here's what I was using:
Hello. I've been greatly enjoying the deck since Thing in the Ice was always my boy
One thing I've noticed is that the latest Ross version is way more susceptible to removal than the one with Fiery Temper. Maybe they were outlier games, but with the latest Ross version I often found myself cantripping into more cantrips while getting my threat killed, and getting killed in the end.
With Fiery Temper, you would turn discards into bolts, which I really liked, and the 8 bolts + Gut Shot + Lightning Axe, in the end gave the deck unparalleled removal against Humans/Spirits while having more Burn potential. Also found it easier to chain spells out of Faithless Looting, Lightning Axe, or even Tormenting Voice or Cathartic Reunion thanks to Madness.
3-4 Crackling Drake are the way to go. It's usually an answer it or die threat, while also drawing for itself. The card is fantastic. 1-2 Bedlam Reveler have been good for me in the 75 though, since people have realized that other than Surgical Extraction, most Graveyard hate is pretty mediocre against us, therefore siding it out against us, and therefore making Reveler good again by completeing the cycle.
1 Noxious Revival has also been working wonders for me. If you really need a cantrip, a land, a bolt or whatever, that card does wonders. Also being able to cast it on your own upkeep means another spell to easily Chain 3 for Phoenix, and also manipulating the top to easily get another spell for it. Try it lads, I swear it's good.
Am I doing something wrong with the latest version? Should I play it slower, or just slam a threat, cantrip for value, and hope it doesn't dies?
Am I doing something wrong with the latest version? Should I play it slower, or just slam a threat, cantrip for value, and hope it doesn't dies?
There's no clear answer whether Temper is worth cutting entirely. If the card is good for you, keep playing it. I personnally like it too.
If you have access to a T2 Titi, you do it because you can't protect it anyway. You have MUs where you can't run Titi on T2 (if you keep Charm vs Storm for example, or want to have more threats VS BG), but those plays are quite seldom in my experience. My idea is to play Titi asap, then if it dies, well those cantrips are there to find another, right ?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If Valakut isn't an issue this is a valid plan. If Valakut is an issue then Alpine Moon is the best we have. Disdainful Stroke is another option but 2cmc is rough to hold up if you ever need to cast 3 spells in your main phase to recur a Phoenix.
PS. How do counterspells synergise with the deck? I actually think the opposite. Sure you can sit on a TiTi and tick down 1 counter a turn by casting a counterspell, but we don't actually have enough cheap countermagic to do this.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
i'm very specific with "enchantment" since red has access to abrade/ thanks in advance!
Echoing Truth and Void Snare to a lesser extent are cards that can deal with enchantments, but you also have Engineered Explosives for Bogles and RIP specifically.
Green and white are splashes that help in that regard. I don't think there's a good enough reson to splash green over white, so in white you have Wear // Tear and Nahiri, the Harbinger.
It hurts, but you can still play around it. Thing in the Ice ignores that kind of hate, you have a ton of bolts, and you can always hardcast Phoenixes for some flying damage.
Reveler is pretty much dead against those cards, though. If you're expecting a lot those you should either replace it with Cracking Drake, or keep some alternative threats in the SB to swap in against those decks: Crackling Drake, Kiln Field and Young Pyromancer are fine options to consider.
Also, remember that you can counter RIP with the Charm.
Chart a Course, Izzet Charm, Faithless Looting
Would Hollow One, Bedlam Reveler and Thing in the Ice be enough to warrant Flamewake Phoenix?
Fish
U/W Control
U/B Control
U/B Control Mill, U/R Ascension Mill, BUG Mill
G Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Eldrazi Aggro
Junkie Doran
U/W Ephara Flash
Splendid Dredge
You could BR, just use a Hollow One shell
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Arclight Phoenix
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Collective Brutality
2 Gut Shot
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
22
Or something near there. Noxious, Mutagenic, Blooghast, Reveler, Goblin Lore to take the land count down.
Fish
U/W Control
U/B Control
U/B Control Mill, U/R Ascension Mill, BUG Mill
G Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Eldrazi Aggro
Junkie Doran
U/W Ephara Flash
Splendid Dredge
I'm still relatively new with this deck, but my feeling so far is that both of Scales and Spirits have trouble if a Thing in the Ice sticks, but they are a bit favored otherwise, as our removal suite is not ideal against them.
Post-board it gets a little better thanks to Anger and more removal.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/125557
Its what I'm playing as well, and its awesome.
Spirits
By Mike Sigrist
I have been playing Runaway Red but have all but the Scalding Tarns for the Izzet version. Won FNM the first time I played and went 3-1 the second time after walking into mainboarded Nihil Spellbombs. Deck is pretty fun!
Anyone have an idea for the Izzet manabase without Scalding Tarns? Unfortunately they are not in the cards (thank you, thank you very much) during the holiday season. Maybe something like:
Can confirm, played with Shivan Reef for a while, not that different from Scalding Tarns in overall performance. I kept track for some games, and in average it was +1/-1 life from what I would have lost with fetches+shocks, though I felt you had less *control* over the lifeloss.
Also, knowing that whatever you scry bottom will stay there can be interesting depending on your cantrip setup. Here's what I was using:
2x Island
4x Mountain
4x Shivan Reef
4x Spirebluff Canal
4x Steam Vents
You can adjust the split between the basics depending on your list composition.
One thing I've noticed is that the latest Ross version is way more susceptible to removal than the one with Fiery Temper. Maybe they were outlier games, but with the latest Ross version I often found myself cantripping into more cantrips while getting my threat killed, and getting killed in the end.
With Fiery Temper, you would turn discards into bolts, which I really liked, and the 8 bolts + Gut Shot + Lightning Axe, in the end gave the deck unparalleled removal against Humans/Spirits while having more Burn potential. Also found it easier to chain spells out of Faithless Looting, Lightning Axe, or even Tormenting Voice or Cathartic Reunion thanks to Madness.
3-4 Crackling Drake are the way to go. It's usually an answer it or die threat, while also drawing for itself. The card is fantastic. 1-2 Bedlam Reveler have been good for me in the 75 though, since people have realized that other than Surgical Extraction, most Graveyard hate is pretty mediocre against us, therefore siding it out against us, and therefore making Reveler good again by completeing the cycle.
1 Noxious Revival has also been working wonders for me. If you really need a cantrip, a land, a bolt or whatever, that card does wonders. Also being able to cast it on your own upkeep means another spell to easily Chain 3 for Phoenix, and also manipulating the top to easily get another spell for it. Try it lads, I swear it's good.
Am I doing something wrong with the latest version? Should I play it slower, or just slam a threat, cantrip for value, and hope it doesn't dies?
There's no clear answer whether Temper is worth cutting entirely. If the card is good for you, keep playing it. I personnally like it too.
If you have access to a T2 Titi, you do it because you can't protect it anyway. You have MUs where you can't run Titi on T2 (if you keep Charm vs Storm for example, or want to have more threats VS BG), but those plays are quite seldom in my experience. My idea is to play Titi asap, then if it dies, well those cantrips are there to find another, right ?