OK, blue is officially on the table now: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18345&d=313879 (11th in a 325 player event).
Julian Grace-Martin was one of the first players of the deck. Compared to his first list -3 Goblin Guide, -1 Grim Lavamancer -2 Cathartic Reunion -2 Temur Battle Rage -3 Become Immense, +3 Flamewake Phoenix +3 Thought Scour +2 Chart a Course +2 Hooting Mandrills +1 Lightning Bolt, so it changed a lot. He apparently still doesn't like Flameblade Adept and random discard though.
I am surprised Chart a Course would be good enough to play in this deck and he plays only 2 Stubborn Denials (in the sideboard). One of the biggest things: no Blood Moon or any other land hate. I guess the plan is always to race anything.
I personally don’t like the Vengevine version. I prefer just straight black and red. In the green version, it relies on you actually casting creatures. It’s just a different deck altogether. No Bloodghast either.
The hilarity. The same thing happened in the RG Super Vengevine thread, when people started playing decks that there 80% the same but tweaked to incorporate Hollow One ("HollowVine"), there was a faction of die-hards who fought any discussion of Hollow One infecting their precious thread because it didn't adhere to their vision of what their deck should be (not caring whether others were interested and thought there was actually a LOT of overlap). Now seeing the same here. Other flavors of the same fundamental deck get a little bit of discussion, and there are immediately people lining up to fight the discussion - not MY deck, not in THIS thread!
So the Hollow One thread doesn't tolerate discussing a deck that includes both Hollow One and Vengevine, the Vengevine thread won't tolerate discussing a deck that includes both Hollow One and Vengevine. I suppose they're forbidden to coexist by forumgoer decree.
i think the amalgam version could have legs for those reasons too..dredge really only has conflagration over that version...
vengevine is different because you have to build around it because it needs triggered with 2 creatures... thus the free creatures (bloodghast, and flamewake) that arent cast, dont work towards the same gameplan.... sure theres a lot of overlap, but Gx tron and eldrazi tron have a lot of overlap, but are quite different decks as well...
on a more relevant note, other than color splashes, destructive revelry 2x SB is nice sb hate-hate which i can get behind.
As described in the op, Bloodghast/Vengevine is an either or situation. Flamewake works out fine - it and VV are the two things you want to discard, and when you bring back VV it serves as the comeback condition for FWP. You meet the VV condition on the backs of 1-drops, 1-and 0-cost Hollow Ones, and (if you play them) net-zero-cost guys like Burning Tree Emissary.
Really feels like we are just breaking into this deck. Also feels like the best version will be discovered in the near future, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it ended up looking and feeling like a turboesque dredge deck.
The draw and random discard can fuel dredge while discarding fuels hallow and flameblades. Only issue I see is incorporating VV in here and space. Something will have to come out.
Between neonate and flameblades thats 8 1 drop guys to bring back VV. Probably need to either wait for another broken 1 drop to be printed or discover the next in line guy.... If going that route than the obvious direction is Lavamancer. 1 drop that deals direct damage at the cost of things you dont need in the yard.
Next most obvious choice is Angler. Since he can delve lands and useless lands to cost only 1 also.
Double post but seporate thoughts.
Okay so its kinda obvious, or atleast my playstyle, that turn 1 on the draw you go for it when you can. But on the play do y'all find yourselves going for it or setting up? Like when Im on the play and have neonate and looting I'll lead with looting. Maybe putting a VV in the yard or seeing if I draw into gas. Its possible to pitch a VV off of a looting and see you have wraith and 2 hallow ones. In which case you switch gears and ram it in there. But more often you don't have that hand. In which case just pitching the vv is fine because next turn you have your draw step and neonate to draw again while knowing that'll count as 1 for VV and 1 for HO.
another veteran from G/R vengevine thread and have to say really likeinmg the temur http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18345&d=313879 deck that was metioned before (i'm not a big fan of random discard but that's more of a personal preference)
a quick question has anyone given any thought to what happens if bloodbraid elf is unbanned ? as vengevine(and now hollow one) have always felt like natural homes for it to me.
Restore Balance is quite restrictive on the rest of the deck (we have a lot of low cmc utility). If you would manage to make it work, it would be a totally different deck than what we are playing here.
All of the Pro-Tour variants are very one-dimensional. They're basically creature aggro with very little interaction. I prefer running less discard outlets/creatures and more burn/interaction.
So here are the last 13 matches I've played in the past few weeks at a few local events:
-Event 1- (4-0. First)
vs 8Rack: 2-0
Not a hard matchup, as he had very little to interact with threats, and making me discard does very little.
vs B/G Rock: 2-1
A much harder matchup! Got lucky Game 1 with double Turn 1 Hollow One off of Looting/Wraith. Game 2 was grindier, but Lili's and a Damnation got him there. Game 3 had a bunch of Bloodghasts he didn't have an answer for, pulling it through in the end.
vs Bring To Light Scapeshift: 2-0
Not enough answers for a versatile threat package. Counterspells and a slow win-con aren't great against our deck without good removal backing them up!
vs Bant Spirits: 2-1
Great match, grindy threats and good spot removal/reach really pulled through. Rakdos Charm for 5 seems legit and won me Game 3!
-Event 2- (5-1, Second)
vs Whir Lantern: 2-0
He didn't find Bridge fast enough Game 1, and was at 5 or 6 by the time he did. I burned him out no problem. Game 2 I dropped Blood Moon before he could Whir for a Bridge, and he lost to Adept beats.
vs B/G Tron: 2-1
Guy knows what he's doing with his version of Tron; normally it's a pretty easy matchup, but he found the discard to take my enablers and drop a Wurmcoil Game 1. Game 2 was double Hollow One on Turn 1, and Game 3 was Blood Moon with him digging for Green mana. Durdling with Stars left him easy prey to a small army of beaters.
vs U/G Fish: 2-1
Kill Fish with Bolts, win game. Game 2 he had the all-Lords backed by Spreading Seas kill. Game 3 he didn't. Rakdos Charms can both give reach or blow an early Vial, as I did Game 3 on the second turn.
vs Amulet Titan: 2-1
Game 1 was Turn 3 Titan, a real quick win, blegh. Game 2 I had Bolt for Azusa and some fast beats. Game 3 I had a Charm for her Amulet. Gotta have interaction!
vs Mardu Midrange: 2-0
Souls is good aganst us, Path is good against us. This poor guy saw 0 Paths both games, and Bloodghasts just pushed through all of his interaction. Saw Damnation against a Ghast, Phoenix, and Adept Game 2, didn't care. Dropped Angler and got everything back next turn, he had Lilis and Bolts in hand that did very little. Didn't see any Revelers, and I Tempered his Pyromancer, though, so I think he just got pretty unlucky.
vs U/W Control: 0-2
NOPE. Game 1 he locked out my Ghasts with D-Sphere and dropped Gideon to slow my roll. Game 2 I go T1 Adept, T2 2x Hollow One (he Paths one), T3 Ghast into play and a Phoenix swinging, T4 swing for lethal, get Settle the Wreckaged! REKT AM I. Good stuff, haha.
-Event 3- (3-0, First)
vs Mono-W Taxes: 2-0
He had a SUPER slow start Game 1, and once I'd Tempered his Thalia, I pretty much had him. Game 2 was Hollow One Turn 1 into Tasigur Turn 2 into Phoenix x2 Turn 3. Really nasty start, he didn't have much in the way of answers other than a single Path.
vs Elves: 2-1
Game 1 my opener was 2 Bolts, a Temper, a Bloodghast, and a Collective Brutality. He got smote. Game 2 he did the Elves thing with Relic of Progenitus backup, and I almost turned it around, but in the end it was just too much. Game 3 I kept a Grim Lavamancer out to protect a single Adept, who went the whole way, with Bolts and the Lavaman dinging blockers to keep the Board clear for Adept to do alllll the work.
vs U/B Mill: 2-0
It was mill. He put three Phoenixes into my GY at one point, then immediately died to them and a Delve dude over the next two turns. Easy match, though Game 2 he surprised me with a Bridge out of his SB! Fortunately, I brought in Charms to hit his Mesmeric Orbs anyway, so it all worked out.
Hello there, im currently running Ken Yukihiro version with a little bit modifications. I like Faerie Macabre as extra discard and graveyard key removal, also with Call Netherworld to get back faerie and discard again or Gurmag. In sideboard playing with 3 Ravenous Trap since i can't afford Leyline yet. Any thoughts?
^My initial thought is that Call of the Netherworld was tried out in the very early versions of the deck, but somehow was abandoned. Basically you go -2 Bolt, -2 Collective Brutality, +2 Call +2 Macabre as compared to the PT list. It feels like you trade a lot of interaction away.
Meanwhile on Reddit, one of the Rakdos Hollow One developers posted a primer. Interestingly, there is an extensive matchup list. As Gruul player with a list that has a lot of overlap with the Rakdos version, I can complement the list. Char_Aznable's original comment in BLACK. In case the matchup is for Gruul identical I write nothing and in case there is a difference I write it in GREEN. The reason the ratings are high is because the Rakdos player has 78% win in 140+ Competitive League matches. I (Gruul) have 75% win in 260 Friendly League matches.
4c Saheeli: 7/10 Good Matchup, Reason: Fast Clock + Burn Interaction
4c Shadow: 6.5/10 Good Matchup, Reason: Go way too wide + Menace/Flying
Abzan: 50/50, Reason: Lingering Souls+Path keeps them in it
Ad Nauseam: 90/10 Great Matchup, Reason: Random Discard+Turn 3 Goldfish Kills
Good matchup, but definitely lower than 90/10. More like 75/25
Affinity: 25/75 G1, 60/40 G2/G3, Reason: Cranial Plating destroys this deck
40/60 G1, 75/25 G2/G3. Gruul is a bit faster, so it can race G1. Maindeck Lavamancer helps as well. G2 I bring in 2x Bolt, 2x Revelry, 3x Grudge, which is a lot of extra hate.
Amulet: 60/40 Good Matchup, Reason: Simply too fast unless they have a turn 3 kill
Probably better than 60/40. Moon gets them really hard and you can turn 3 them.
Bant Eldrazi: 70/30 Great Matchup, Reason: We are the better stompy deck
Not particularly Stompy here, but still fast enough to get the 70/30.
BG Rock Midrange: 60/40 Good Matchup, Reason: No Path and Liliana is atrocious vs us
BG Tron: 75/25 Great Matchup, Reason: Simply too slow and many turn 3 tron payoffs don't save them
BR Hollow One: Skill Dependent, Reason: Experience
I think coinflip. Early Vengevines can dominate, but once they get their Gurmag Anglers, I get stalled.
Burn: 90/10 Great Matchup, Reason: Extremely fast 4/4 and 5/5 combined with Maindeck Brutality
More like 70/30, because no Brutality. Also more pain from Eidolon as I have less Delve. Still good matchup as Gruul is fast
BW Eldrazi Taxes: 60/40 Good Matchup, Reason: Superior Creature Quality combined with recurring threats/interaction
BW Smallpox: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: Bloodghast/Flamewake laugh at them
No experience, but matchup seems fine.
BW Tokens: 40/60 Bad Matchup, Reason: Path deck + infinite blockers
Revelry can deal with annoying enchantments and sometimes you can just nutdraw your wins
Counters Company: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: Fast Clock + 6x MD interaction for combo
I don't get 80/20, more like 70/30, but Lavamancer is great here.
DnT: 65/35 Great Matchup, Reason: Superior Creature Quality combined with recurring threats/interaction
Dredge: 75/25 Great Matchup, Reason: While dredge can also deploy 8-10 power turn 2, most of their creatures CIP Tapped/Can't Block, and are smaller than our 4/4s and 5/5s.
60/40. Blockers less great than those of Rakdos. I usually still outrace it.
Eldrazi Tron: 60/40 Good Matchup, Barring Turn 2 on the play Chalice, simply too fast with creatures that are bigger than most of E-trons early threats.
GDS: 40/60 Bad Matchup, Reason: Kommand + TBR + Death Shadow is a nightmare.
It is slightly favorable (55/45). In addition to Flameblade, also Neonate can get it. Then, there is also the option to go wide with Bushwhacker as I have more creatures than Rakdos.
Grixis Control: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: No Path + Bloodghast/Flamewake/Delve package.
I guess I don't have enough reach, and they have a lot of removal. It is not a terrible matchup, but definitely not 80/20
GW Value Company: 45/55 Bad Matchup, Reason: Path deck + lifegain + blocks well
55/45. Not that bad, Lavamancers are good here.
Humans: 20/80 G1 Bad Matchup, Key card is Reflector Mage/Thalia LT, 60/40 G2/G3 with torpor orb as dedicated hate.
50+ matchup: Lavamancer shines here. Also, usually I can nutdraw them with excessive Vengevines.
Infect: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: Fast Clock with interaction
Jeskai Ascendancy 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: Fast Clock with interaction
Not much experience, but I can't remember this was a bad matchup.
Jeskai Control 75/25 Great Matchup, 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: No Path + Bloodghast/Flamewake/Delve package.
Jeskai Geist: 55/45 Good Matchup, Reason: Similar logic to burn, although lightning helix combined with a fast giest can be problematic.
Jund: 60/40 Good Matchup, Reason: No Lingering Souls/Path make this much better than Abzan. Goyf can be problematic.
Use Lavamancer for dealing with Goyf and Ooze.
Kiki Chord: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: 6x Interaction + Fast clock + torpor orb
No Torpor Orb here, but I can't remember huge problems.
Lantern: 15/85 G1, 40/60 G2/G3 Awful Matchup, Reason: Bridge is GG g1 unless you got them to 5-6 life and burn them out. Grudges make G2/G3 more competitive, but whir -> bridge + cage/jar is very tough to beat as we saw in the PT finals.
This is where probably the biggest difference between Gruul/Rakdos is. I experienced not that many problems. I guess it is a 60/40 matchup or so. Reason: Insolent Neonate is extra instant speed card draw which makes their lock less tight, Vengevines can end the game before bridge hits, and I have also 2x Revelry to side in on top of the 3x Grudge. It is possible though that Friendly League players are a lot worse at Lantern than Competitive League players.
Living End: 90/10 Great Matchup, Reason: fast clock + cycling/discard subtheme basically make living end a dead card. Leyline sideboard.
Not 90/10 for sure. I don't have anything 90/10 as Gruul can just sometimes fumble. Nonetheless this is a good matchup
Mardu Pyromancer: 45/55 G1, 60/40 G2/G3 Mixed, G1 can be tough with lingering souls + lots of terminate/dreadbore, but leyline in G2/G3 completely destroys their deck
Bad matchup 40/60 or less. Too much creature removal to get really dangerous.
Mill: 90/10 Great Matchup, Reason: Simply too slow barring a nice fast bridge
Again, I don't think 90/10 matchups are possible with this deck. Still good matchup (70+), but make sure you don't get hit by Crypt Incursion.
Mono U Living End: 90/10 Great Matchup, Reason: fast clock + cycling/discard subtheme basically make living end a dead card. Leyline sideboard.
Again, so 90/10s here. Also I have not played enough against this deck to give a proper estimate.
Mono U Tron: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: Way too slow and lack removal options of B/G Tron
RG Ponza: 70/30 Great Matchup, Reason: Extremely fast clock + deck operates on 1-2 lands without many issues
RG Titanshift: 85/15 Great Matchup, Reason: Too slow
70/30, a race usually in my favor, Blood Moon, but Anger of the Gods is a thing
Taking Turns: 90/10 Great Matchup, Reason: Too slow
UR Moon/Breach: 70/30 Great Matchup for Breach, 55/45 G1 vs Madcap, then 65/35 G2/G3, Reason, Lack of Path combined with random discard/recurring threats is too hard for them to deal with.
UR Pyromancer: 80/20 Great Matchup, Reason: No Path/Terminate isn't going to cut it
UR Storm: 55/45 Good Matchup, Reason: Generally favored due to 6x interaction + fast clock, but sometimes they will just "get you." G2/G3 improves due to dedicated yard hate.
I just usually try to race them. In 55/45 of the cases that works.
UW Control: 85/15 Great Matchup, Reason: Bloodghast/Phoenix are extremely difficult to deal with, which when combined with lack of bolt/helix shenanigans gives me way too much time to win.
70/30? Gideons and such can really slow us down.
UW Solemnity: 25/75 Awful Matchup, Reason: Can't remove enchantments
No experience with this deck. I can remove enchantments, but I just never played against this.