Depends on the situation really. You might want to overcommit to the board if you have a 3/3 or bigger E1 with a geist, or you have Heroic Intervention in hand, or even want to make sure a wrath is used before playing that Dungrove Elder that you think will close out the game in 1 or 2 turns.
Well I've been thinking of Narnam Renegade instead of E1, cause getting it to 2/3 with revolt is much easier and the death touch is better later on if you need to chump a non killable fatty or a small annoying threat. That would save Avatar. Another thing I was thinking of is taking out the mainboard dismembers and adding in two smuggler's copter so that things like Narnam and dryad can do some more push later on and if need be some card filtering.
The new elf would of course go where Baloth is and I might add another Rhonas and trim down something for another since the new elf would auto awaken the Rhonas.
I like Narnam WITH E1 (in decks that fetch enough to usually revolt) a lot more than Narnam replacing E1. It's a one drop that (revolted) can still evolve a 2/2 E1. It can get a counter that makes it good fuel for Avatar. If I'm set on cutting one drops to 8, Dryad Militants are the ones that exit maindeck (perhaps to sideboard to come in against Snapcaster / Hollow One / whatever other decks count on instants and sorceries getting into the graveyard).
Copter has the same drawback that all the other tried-and-rejected nongreen threats have had: when they're in the same deck as Aspect of Hydra, they're threats that don't contribute devotion in a deck style that is built around that swingy huge devotion finish. In the old thread I argued for the possible place of a deck that chooses not to run Aspect and plays for high efficiency with no concern for devotion. I think there's merit there - but you pretty much have to choose a side: All devotion with aspect or forego devotion for non-aspect. Playing no-devotion permanents that cost mana, and still playing Aspect, is willfully nerfing your own Aspects' punch.
Threats that shake off Rancor every turn are also a little counterproductive.
Running 8 fetchlands and N.Renegade seems reasonable. I also agree it's good with EO, and might not have to replace EO. Going T1 EO, T2 Miltant + Renegade seems pretty good, and might carry some games on its own. It probably comes at the expense of 2- and 3-mana creatures though, which means more leaning on the synergy and less on stand-alone card power.
Copter is really interesting. I'm not sure that two copies invalidates AoH, but it might (depending on what you cut). Copter is probably fantastic in long games and awful in short ones. I definitely wouldn't worry about Rancor falling off, though: people have been winning by post-Wrath Treetop + Rancor beats since Urza's Legacy, and this is not really any more expensive.
@thatmarkguy
So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? Its only a pair of cards and it replaces NOTHING else in the deck that gives devotion that would be in its way, alongside fixing a issue where late game one drops can be more relevant. I mean the reason death and taxes play it is pretty much the same since they can take a Thraben Inspector and copter away life without taking more relevant threats away from the planned goals.
And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument? How bout the aspect a flyer when they don't have any flying blocks argument as a counterpoint.
My biggest point against E1 is that it seems you have to play around E1 or it wont work, and is a extremely bad top deck after turn 1. Narnam is basically add a few fetches to your deck, and hey he can be online as soon as turn 1 and later if they chump kill something or if they kill something of yours on your turn it still gets a +1. Avatar only counts the amount of creatures in play with a single 1/1 counter on them not the amount of 1/1 counters. Realistically how many times does E1 actually hit past being a 3/3? It doesn't even have much of a personal penetration aid and shrinks if you need to save it.
Sorry, my mistake. I thought your post was asking for feedback and discussion, not just a pronouncement that your decisions are infalliable and an opportunity for you to sarc down anyone who dares suggest your decisions might not all have been the ideal ones. Thanks for blessing us with the perfect deck, and we might as well lock this thread now that it has been found and criticism of it will only be attacked with sarcasm.
Read your first sentences of each paragraph above ("So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument?"), and see why it comes off as snarky sarcasm and not a willingness to engage in actual discussion. I provided reasoning why I don't like to use those cards, I didn't sarcastally mock you for your ideas like you did for mine. But you had to drag us into the gutter so here we are.
I think that's about right. EO is great on turns 1 and 2, mediocre on turn 3, and pretty bad thereafter. The question is how much value a 1-mana early 3/3 has, and if it's worth the 1/1 or 2/2 state later. Regeneration is occasionally handy versus Verdict, mostly. The saving grace here really is that Rancor and Rhonas let a topdecked EO not be completely useless.
Renegade is interesting in that it is always relevant to combat (even if it does less damage). The trade-off is that we need to consider running 8+ fetchlands, with all the liability that entails.
Another random one drop that hasn't been mentioned much is Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. This is another potential source of pseudo-evasion. I'm not sure it's really good in this deck, but it represents another way to punch through with an AoH.
SPS and E1 are really at odds with one another, that's always been the main problem. Either one does good things on its own, but in the same deck... if you play T2 SPS before attacking with your T1-dropped E1, it isn't big enough to evolve it, and if you play it after, you only hit with the pre-evolution-sized E1. A T2 Narnam or Militant can be played before combat on T2 to get the pre-T2-swing evolve on that T1 E1, that SPS can't provide.
SPS would bear some new consideration if one were to commit to leaving E1 out.
Sorry, my mistake. I thought your post was asking for feedback and discussion, not just a pronouncement that your decisions are infalliable and an opportunity for you to sarc down anyone who dares suggest your decisions might not all have been the ideal ones. Thanks for blessing us with the perfect deck, and we might as well lock this thread now that it has been found and criticism of it will only be attacked with sarcasm.
Read your first sentences of each paragraph above ("So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument?"), and see why it comes off as snarky sarcasm and not a willingness to engage in actual discussion. I provided reasoning why I don't like to use those cards, I didn't sarcastally mock you for your ideas like you did for mine. But you had to drag us into the gutter so here we are.
After this I'm not going to respond about this anymore, but your original post basically said the idea was crap and should not be played in this deck and gave a theoretical example of a ultimately bad play on copter as why it shouldn't be played with a bunch of hand waving about taking out two cards that didn't even add to the devotion count and ruining the deck. That E1 was fully necessary and should never be changed or that in adding copter to balance out the cards that later on become less relevant was a bad idea. Or at least that's my interpretation of your post, I could very well be wrong. I did counter rebuttal alongside as giving relevant examples of other situations that can be just as relevant for copter inclusion and the reasoning behind it as well. I'll concede I probably was a bit snarky but every time somebody tries to suggest removing E1 or some other upgrade you kinda turn off as well, saying it wont work without any plan to test the changes to see if they wont.
@ lord
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk isn't bad but I think you would have to have gut shot in the deck so that on turn 1 you can alter it best, and while you can pump him and make him unblockable you have to do so in a very telegraphed way. Which Id rather see where you need to pump before I need to pump just because the ability is the way it is. Hitting it with a rancor is neat don't get me wrong but Id rather not just sit on it waiting for it, or waiting to hit somebody for it post turn 2. Maybe as a pair somewhere in a list but not as a 4 off.
Hey guys, take it easy! It's friday and it's just MTG!
The Elf Champion is a great addition to our deck, although I was not a big fun on 3CMC creatures. Even baloth, I was running just 2, trying to be as fast as possible. But the arrival of Elf Champion opened my mind for the possibility to run 8 creatures with 3 CMC and 4 mana dork.
I don't like dryad militant and though Narnam is great, I'm not going to use fetch lands on a budget deck. So 4 mana dork can provide us a nice opening to cast any of our 3 CMC creatures on turn 2.
I agree that the mana dork is a bad topdeck, but any 1 CMC creature is. However, with 8 creatures with 3 CMC the probability is in favor of us.
Another advantage running mana dorks is that we can drop or hand fast, casting Aspect of Hydra with a greater devotion. For example, we may cast a turn 4 Aspect for +11/+11 instead of a +8/+8 in the same scenario.
So my plan is to run:
1 CMC(8)
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Experiment One
2 CMC(10)
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Scavenging Ooze
eh 8, 3cc may be pushing it on 20 lands even with dorks. 6ish 3cc would probably flow better and result in less dead hands if a dork gets killed or you miss a land drop
I really don't understand the reasoning behind mana dorks. It basically comes down to this:
- What do you want to ramp into?
- A 3 cmc creature on turn 2.
- So you definitely need to play this mana dork on turn 1 to achieve this goal?
- Yes.
Which part of this makes sense to you guys? I am really having a hard time convincing myself. If you want to play a mana dork for devotion to aspect, play Wheel of Sun and Moon, Shapers' Sanctuary, or even Evolutionary Leap.
A lot is relevant on the type of dorks in general and cards that you are playing. In the current build yeah your not getting too much out of just 4 dorks on a 20 to 22 count land base alongside the current creatures that this deck usually plays. Yes the 2 current 3cc drops that are most commonly played really aren't as relevant. However once Steel leaf comes out the appeal of dropping a nearly unconditional 5/4 that cant be blocked by chaff a turn earlier than normal becomes much greater.
When I suggested it last time that Noble Hierarch + Steel Leaf making it attack as a 6/5 on turn 3 is pretty relevant in a agro deck seeing as how unless they nuke the Noble Hierarch its very hard to deal with. I mean add in the amount of fetches and shocks other decks play and that could be anywhere from 3 to 6 damage they have already taken. Unless they path the Steel, they will be down 9 to 12 on the next turn. Add in whatever pump like blossoming or aspect and they are down 11/13 to 14/16 in the most optimum play on turn 3. Admittedly that's all hypothetical but as the most theoretical optimal play that's not bad.
I freely admit though that only plopping in 4 dorks will get you very little in the ways of consistency for turn 2 plays. You really want to average 6 to 8 to make those turn 2 plays possible and the other dorks you want would likely be Mystic elves or Llanowar Elves. 1 for every 10 cards would meet the minimum ratio you need to consistently pull the above plays off. While Bird may seem appealing initially they cannot directly attack like Hierarch can since they cant self buff when you need them to. Whereas Mystic/Lawnmowers have a base power toughness that allows you to poke slower developing opponents. Basically birds look good but cost resources if you actually need them to attack by themselves. If you cant afford Hierarchs a spread of 2/4 of the above elves would still leave relevant plays. Lets also not forget Pendelhaven if you decide to use the lower cost elves. It wont enter tapped and can make later game elves more consistent alongside a surprise pump you do first then one during the attack step.
Admittedly this would largely change the decks focus from a small creatures and +1 counter build to something currently different than what is played since the addition of dorks allows greater back end plays or changes the decks reliance on devotion. That and you want to hit 22 or 23 lands instead of lower land counts so if you do miss a land or a dork you still can play things either way.
Having 6-8 mana dorks gives you a lot more dead topdecks, and Pendelhaven is legendary, which means we can only put about 2 mainboard if you don't want to get screwed, which means you can't really rely on them.
If you have the time and money though, I would love to see results with the build you're suggesting! All the info we can get is helpful.
Question about Wheel of Sun and Moon: how does it work with Rancor? Does it go back to your hand, or is that effect replaced? I know you don't normally target yourself, but I'm curious.
Another random one drop that hasn't been mentioned much is Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. This is another potential source of pseudo-evasion. I'm not sure it's really good in this deck, but it represents another way to punch through with an AoH.
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk has been discussed plenty in the old thread, and has been found to be not good enough.. as it cannot be dropped as a 2/2 on turn 1. I lurked a lot in the Pauper Stompy thread, and Pit Skulk is considered a good card there.. so I also thought it had a chance here.. but seems the power level is not high enough for Modern.
I'll see what I can do. I own most the cards I suggest but will probably wait to test in a RL environment. I might consider vengevine or Deus of calamity depending on how this fleshes out. Dead top decks are relative. A mana sink like Rhonas, treetop village, and adding in smugglers make dorks become more viable overall since the mana they produce can be used to fuel other spells/abilities.
I've been vacillating on Thrun, and whether there is room for two copies in the MB or SB. It's pretty mana intensive, but the card beats UW Control almost on its own these days.
I really don't understand the reasoning behind mana dorks. It basically comes down to this:
- What do you want to ramp into?
- A 3 cmc creature on turn 2.
- So you definitely need to play this mana dork on turn 1 to achieve this goal?
- Yes.
That would also be my opinion for now. But I don't say it to discourage others from trying to discover a good Stompy with manadorks build - we're all working here to build a good deck, so just keep on testing.
The new elf would of course go where Baloth is and I might add another Rhonas and trim down something for another since the new elf would auto awaken the Rhonas.
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Leatherback Baloth
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
Enchantment
4 Rancor
8 Forest
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
Artifact
2 Smuggler's Copter
Instant
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Aspect of Hydra
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Deglamer
1 Feed the Clan
2 Natural State
1 Pulse of Murasa
4 Fatal Push
Copter has the same drawback that all the other tried-and-rejected nongreen threats have had: when they're in the same deck as Aspect of Hydra, they're threats that don't contribute devotion in a deck style that is built around that swingy huge devotion finish. In the old thread I argued for the possible place of a deck that chooses not to run Aspect and plays for high efficiency with no concern for devotion. I think there's merit there - but you pretty much have to choose a side: All devotion with aspect or forego devotion for non-aspect. Playing no-devotion permanents that cost mana, and still playing Aspect, is willfully nerfing your own Aspects' punch.
Threats that shake off Rancor every turn are also a little counterproductive.
Copter is really interesting. I'm not sure that two copies invalidates AoH, but it might (depending on what you cut). Copter is probably fantastic in long games and awful in short ones. I definitely wouldn't worry about Rancor falling off, though: people have been winning by post-Wrath Treetop + Rancor beats since Urza's Legacy, and this is not really any more expensive.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? Its only a pair of cards and it replaces NOTHING else in the deck that gives devotion that would be in its way, alongside fixing a issue where late game one drops can be more relevant. I mean the reason death and taxes play it is pretty much the same since they can take a Thraben Inspector and copter away life without taking more relevant threats away from the planned goals.
And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument? How bout the aspect a flyer when they don't have any flying blocks argument as a counterpoint.
Read your first sentences of each paragraph above ("So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument?"), and see why it comes off as snarky sarcasm and not a willingness to engage in actual discussion. I provided reasoning why I don't like to use those cards, I didn't sarcastally mock you for your ideas like you did for mine. But you had to drag us into the gutter so here we are.
Renegade is interesting in that it is always relevant to combat (even if it does less damage). The trade-off is that we need to consider running 8+ fetchlands, with all the liability that entails.
Another random one drop that hasn't been mentioned much is Skarrgan Pit-Skulk. This is another potential source of pseudo-evasion. I'm not sure it's really good in this deck, but it represents another way to punch through with an AoH.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
SPS would bear some new consideration if one were to commit to leaving E1 out.
After this I'm not going to respond about this anymore, but your original post basically said the idea was crap and should not be played in this deck and gave a theoretical example of a ultimately bad play on copter as why it shouldn't be played with a bunch of hand waving about taking out two cards that didn't even add to the devotion count and ruining the deck. That E1 was fully necessary and should never be changed or that in adding copter to balance out the cards that later on become less relevant was a bad idea. Or at least that's my interpretation of your post, I could very well be wrong. I did counter rebuttal alongside as giving relevant examples of other situations that can be just as relevant for copter inclusion and the reasoning behind it as well. I'll concede I probably was a bit snarky but every time somebody tries to suggest removing E1 or some other upgrade you kinda turn off as well, saying it wont work without any plan to test the changes to see if they wont.
@ lord
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk isn't bad but I think you would have to have gut shot in the deck so that on turn 1 you can alter it best, and while you can pump him and make him unblockable you have to do so in a very telegraphed way. Which Id rather see where you need to pump before I need to pump just because the ability is the way it is. Hitting it with a rancor is neat don't get me wrong but Id rather not just sit on it waiting for it, or waiting to hit somebody for it post turn 2. Maybe as a pair somewhere in a list but not as a 4 off.
The Elf Champion is a great addition to our deck, although I was not a big fun on 3CMC creatures. Even baloth, I was running just 2, trying to be as fast as possible. But the arrival of Elf Champion opened my mind for the possibility to run 8 creatures with 3 CMC and 4 mana dork.
I don't like dryad militant and though Narnam is great, I'm not going to use fetch lands on a budget deck. So 4 mana dork can provide us a nice opening to cast any of our 3 CMC creatures on turn 2.
I agree that the mana dork is a bad topdeck, but any 1 CMC creature is. However, with 8 creatures with 3 CMC the probability is in favor of us.
Another advantage running mana dorks is that we can drop or hand fast, casting Aspect of Hydra with a greater devotion. For example, we may cast a turn 4 Aspect for +11/+11 instead of a +8/+8 in the same scenario.
So my plan is to run:
1 CMC(8)
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Experiment One
2 CMC(10)
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 CMC(8)
4 Leatherback Baloth
4 Steel Leaf Champion
Spells
4 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
2 Blossoming Defense
Dismember in the side, being aggressive and more midrange at the same time.
- What do you want to ramp into?
- A 3 cmc creature on turn 2.
- So you definitely need to play this mana dork on turn 1 to achieve this goal?
- Yes.
Which part of this makes sense to you guys? I am really having a hard time convincing myself. If you want to play a mana dork for devotion to aspect, play Wheel of Sun and Moon, Shapers' Sanctuary, or even Evolutionary Leap.
When I suggested it last time that Noble Hierarch + Steel Leaf making it attack as a 6/5 on turn 3 is pretty relevant in a agro deck seeing as how unless they nuke the Noble Hierarch its very hard to deal with. I mean add in the amount of fetches and shocks other decks play and that could be anywhere from 3 to 6 damage they have already taken. Unless they path the Steel, they will be down 9 to 12 on the next turn. Add in whatever pump like blossoming or aspect and they are down 11/13 to 14/16 in the most optimum play on turn 3. Admittedly that's all hypothetical but as the most theoretical optimal play that's not bad.
I freely admit though that only plopping in 4 dorks will get you very little in the ways of consistency for turn 2 plays. You really want to average 6 to 8 to make those turn 2 plays possible and the other dorks you want would likely be Mystic elves or Llanowar Elves. 1 for every 10 cards would meet the minimum ratio you need to consistently pull the above plays off. While Bird may seem appealing initially they cannot directly attack like Hierarch can since they cant self buff when you need them to. Whereas Mystic/Lawnmowers have a base power toughness that allows you to poke slower developing opponents. Basically birds look good but cost resources if you actually need them to attack by themselves. If you cant afford Hierarchs a spread of 2/4 of the above elves would still leave relevant plays. Lets also not forget Pendelhaven if you decide to use the lower cost elves. It wont enter tapped and can make later game elves more consistent alongside a surprise pump you do first then one during the attack step.
Admittedly this would largely change the decks focus from a small creatures and +1 counter build to something currently different than what is played since the addition of dorks allows greater back end plays or changes the decks reliance on devotion. That and you want to hit 22 or 23 lands instead of lower land counts so if you do miss a land or a dork you still can play things either way.
If you have the time and money though, I would love to see results with the build you're suggesting! All the info we can get is helpful.
Question about Wheel of Sun and Moon: how does it work with Rancor? Does it go back to your hand, or is that effect replaced? I know you don't normally target yourself, but I'm curious.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk has been discussed plenty in the old thread, and has been found to be not good enough.. as it cannot be dropped as a 2/2 on turn 1. I lurked a lot in the Pauper Stompy thread, and Pit Skulk is considered a good card there.. so I also thought it had a chance here.. but seems the power level is not high enough for Modern.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
That would also be my opinion for now. But I don't say it to discourage others from trying to discover a good Stompy with manadorks build - we're all working here to build a good deck, so just keep on testing.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread