Force is a cycle, and the green one is not even that bad!
Force of Vigor
2GG
Instant
If it's not your turn, you may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Destroy up to two target artifacts and/or enchantments.
I don't know how necessary this is for us, but since we're always short on mana, being able to pitch a card to get rid of things fast might be really strong for us! It'll have to be tested to see if the card disadvantage is worth it, and against which decks you'd want to play this.
Not actually card disadvantage if you nail two permanents. :). Was kinda surprised they made it a cycle but didn’t make this one closer in purpose to Bounty of the Hunt.
It can be kinda good, but will need to be tested for sure. As it can get rid of many problem permanents. Most important it can kill a resolved Mycosynth Lattice while Karn is on the field. It's also a great tool against Prison decks and Bogles. As it can hose Daybreak Coronet and Welding Jar.
Is your Question directed at the usage in Stompy, or in general? Because this depends heavily on the deck and Manabase you are playing, and on the Situation in the game. In Stompy, of Course you always grab a Basic, because most lists play Fetches only to trigger Narnam Renegade.
There are a few exceptions that utilize Temple Garden for a White Splash, in this case you would Always get the Shock land as soon as possible, since your Options of deck Manipulation and ensuring you have the Right mana available are limited.
It was more of general question. I've never played with Fetches before as they were too expensive but as I'm getting older, and my bank account a little more flush, I'm wanting to go ahead and get them. At the very least, Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath, and now the new Prismatic Vista. I'm almost strictly a Mono G and RG aggro and/or ramp player with occasional WG or Naya. I know for Stompy's purposes, we'd fetch a basic but when it came to Fetches and Shocks I was curious if there was any sort of conventional wisdom regarding their usage since to, use a fetch and shock, we're burning 3 life to use a land.
This depends also on your personal preferences, but I agree with phaircaron, more than 4 Evolvers can make for strange starts, where you Play only 1/1s without an early possibility to make them bigger.
And in the direct comparison, Ex1 is definitely the winner for me, since I think Regeneration is more important than Trample, and 2 counters is much more easy to accomplish than 3 (in fact, most of the time the Ex1 will be dead before the second counter).
Personally, I Play 4 Experiments, 4 Dryads (agree with Phaircaron again, they are crucial in the curent meta) and 3 Renegades.
Ok, that makes sense. Until I have my fetches, I'll probably play 4 E1/4 Dryad/2 Pelt Collector. I also would prefer the Regen as Trample, while relevant, isn't all that difficult for us to get with Rancor, Avatar already having it, Steel Leaf bypassing other aggro creatures. But having some resiliency can be huge.
There will definitely be no Reprint of the Fetchlands in Horizons. A Kind of replacement is possible, but I think its not very likely.
Investing in the Fetches (to Play with them, of Course, not as a monetary Investment!) sounds like a reasonable choice to me. No guarantees that they will maintain their value, but since they are relevant in all eternal Formats, they are not likely to loose much of value.
And if you plan to get the Fetches for Stompy, you can start with Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath, which are the cheapest Fetches you will find.
Looks like we got a new fetch in Prismatic Vista. Right up our alley and gives us a new fetch to work with to trigger Narnem
Prismatic Vista
Land
Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Prismatic Vista
Search your library for a basic land card, put it on the battlefield, the shuffle your library
Force Of Vigor seems really strong. It has obvious strengths/versatility but I think it has two especially powerful applications.
Against Ad Nauseum deck, killing Phyrexian Unlife and being able to snag a mana artifact simultaneously, while still being able to commit to the board is great.
I've been thinking about it, and I sadly don't think it's a good card, and here's why:
First of all, it's a sorcery. This already is a big red flag for our deck. I'll make it short: being unable to cast it in response is a big downgrade from Aspect of Hydra and Vines of Vastwood.
Secondly, you'd want to compare this to other pump spells we have, to see which one gets us the most damage. If we look at Aspect of Hydra, which is generally seen as better than Giant Growth for our deck, you can see the Aspect will most likely give us 4 power or more. (Unless we're behind, but if we're behind we're most likely to lose anyway. Also part of the reason we don't play Giant Growth, but that aside.)
Scale Up is going to get us 6 power at most, and that is when our original creature has 0 power. In an average case, let's say our creature has 3 power, meaning that this will give us 3 more power at sorcery speed. The Overload is completely irrelevant for us.
The only upside I can see it have is when you T1 Experiment One, T2 Dryad Militant and Scale Up targeting the E1 so you can hit for 6 on turn 2, but that doesn't seem worth it in comparison with Aspect that can hit for 6 as a combat trick to finish the game.
It’s nice... but how often would it be better for us than Might of Old Krosa? It is +1/-1 better than Might on our experiment ones and pelt collectors but trades off the versatility of access to the instant mode as a combat trick or bolt-survival surprise.
If we had a build running birds of paradise, that would be more worth considering, +6 power on an evasive body. But most of our creatures already have 2+ power so going to 6... is equivalent to cards we already don’t use.
I love the wurm card! This is some serious pump the overload seems a little to expensive to be viable. My main issue against this is that it can only target your stuff, turning your opponent ulamog or medaling mage into a big (but vanilla creture) seems like it would have been very potent. Also a shame about soc speed. If it had either of the upgrades I would consider running it but as is it's only really worth while with e one (as the counters still add to its mass) Militant, and a already killed strangle root.
So boarderline
The basic fetchland on the other hand, auto 4 of (solong as it stays cheap)
The card does not make the creature lose their abilities (like in Turn to Frog).
Another problem with it is the power limit; the fact that you can't really cast it on a big Avatar of the Resolute or a Steel Leaf Champion is pretty crucial too, even if it was an instant.
The new fetchland should definitely be included (if you don't splash), and as long as it's cheaper than our current fetches it's a win for us.
It does work ok on a big avatar, because it becomes 6/4 base, then adds all those counters and is still trample. I mean it’s like a worse giant growth (+3/+2) at that point but it’s not the near-useless (+1/+0) it is on steel leaf champion.
The only upside I can see it have is when you T1 Experiment One, T2 Dryad Militant and Scale Up targeting the E1 so you can hit for 6 on turn 2, but that doesn't seem worth it in comparison with Aspect that can hit for 6 as a combat trick to finish the game.
You'd hit for 7 in this case, as E1 would have base power 6 and 1x +1/+1 counter. As AmicDeep and thatmarkguy stated this is why it's not that bad to use it on an Avatar, as it's always a +3/+2 pump, however, being a sorcery makes it a bit hard for us to justify playing it.
Yeah sorry about that, I forgot about the counters. Either way, I would still say that the card is definitely not good enough for us, mainly because of the sorcery speed. Like thatmarkguy said before, we don't play Might of Old Krosa, and that does have the option of being played as an instant.
I'm not as sceptical about the worm as you are. Playing it pre combat on a trample creature before swinging will often get a reaction.. if you run 5 hexproof effect instants it might be more consistant T3 or T4 kill (based on my maths)
That does look good! The fact that it starts as a 2/1 makes me have hope for this card. I'm not sure it will fit in a build that already has fetches and Narnam Renegade, but it's a very cool card nonetheless. I'm just a bit iffy on the sorcery speed of the leveling, which might be a problem (being unable so sink your unused mana into it).
Double edit: I just realized that, when you level it up, it also has protection from our own instants. Being unable to pump him when it's a 4/4 seems less desirable.
Just seen him as well. I will definitely try as a 2 of, as I feel multiples may be a little underwhelming.
Indo think this is what the deck needs as one thing I've noticed is the games that I tend to win are games when I just stick 3 one drops in the first 2 turns, and having this as also my turn three play seems very nice, I agree soc speed is a big let down but at least it's not another card (like when they hit under aspect )
I'm not as sceptical about the worm as you are. Playing it pre combat on a trample creature before swinging will often get a reaction.. if you run 5 hexproof effect instants it might be more consistant T3 or T4 kill (based on my maths)
What trample creature would we play it on that we wouldn’t have rathered play might of old krosa instead?
It’s a worse giant growth on Avatar of the Resolute and Treetop Village.
The only creatures it’s at all better than krosa on, are e1 and pelty, where it’s +5/+3, compared to krosa’s +4/+4 (with instant-lesser-mode option). E1 doesn’t have trample at all and pelty only does once it has 3 or more counters on it.
That’s a pretty narrow set of circumstances where it’s one point of power better than krosa, a card we already decided against using. One point better a small percentage of the time and less versatile than a card we already dismissed.
Force of Vigor
2GG
Instant
If it's not your turn, you may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Destroy up to two target artifacts and/or enchantments.
I don't know how necessary this is for us, but since we're always short on mana, being able to pitch a card to get rid of things fast might be really strong for us! It'll have to be tested to see if the card disadvantage is worth it, and against which decks you'd want to play this.
It was more of general question. I've never played with Fetches before as they were too expensive but as I'm getting older, and my bank account a little more flush, I'm wanting to go ahead and get them. At the very least, Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath, and now the new Prismatic Vista. I'm almost strictly a Mono G and RG aggro and/or ramp player with occasional WG or Naya. I know for Stompy's purposes, we'd fetch a basic but when it came to Fetches and Shocks I was curious if there was any sort of conventional wisdom regarding their usage since to, use a fetch and shock, we're burning 3 life to use a land.
Ok, that makes sense. Until I have my fetches, I'll probably play 4 E1/4 Dryad/2 Pelt Collector. I also would prefer the Regen as Trample, while relevant, isn't all that difficult for us to get with Rancor, Avatar already having it, Steel Leaf bypassing other aggro creatures. But having some resiliency can be huge.
Looks like we got a new fetch in Prismatic Vista. Right up our alley and gives us a new fetch to work with to trigger Narnem
Prismatic Vista
Land
Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Prismatic Vista
Search your library for a basic land card, put it on the battlefield, the shuffle your library
Against Ad Nauseum deck, killing Phyrexian Unlife and being able to snag a mana artifact simultaneously, while still being able to commit to the board is great.
The other is against burn. It kills Eidolon Of The Great Revel without triggering it, and can also pick of miscellaneous copies of Ensnaring Bridge or Rest In Peace they may have boarded in.
First of all, it's a sorcery. This already is a big red flag for our deck. I'll make it short: being unable to cast it in response is a big downgrade from Aspect of Hydra and Vines of Vastwood.
Secondly, you'd want to compare this to other pump spells we have, to see which one gets us the most damage. If we look at Aspect of Hydra, which is generally seen as better than Giant Growth for our deck, you can see the Aspect will most likely give us 4 power or more. (Unless we're behind, but if we're behind we're most likely to lose anyway. Also part of the reason we don't play Giant Growth, but that aside.)
Scale Up is going to get us 6 power at most, and that is when our original creature has 0 power. In an average case, let's say our creature has 3 power, meaning that this will give us 3 more power at sorcery speed. The Overload is completely irrelevant for us.
The only upside I can see it have is when you T1 Experiment One, T2 Dryad Militant and Scale Up targeting the E1 so you can hit for 6 on turn 2, but that doesn't seem worth it in comparison with Aspect that can hit for 6 as a combat trick to finish the game.
If we had a build running birds of paradise, that would be more worth considering, +6 power on an evasive body. But most of our creatures already have 2+ power so going to 6... is equivalent to cards we already don’t use.
So boarderline
The basic fetchland on the other hand, auto 4 of (solong as it stays cheap)
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Another problem with it is the power limit; the fact that you can't really cast it on a big Avatar of the Resolute or a Steel Leaf Champion is pretty crucial too, even if it was an instant.
The new fetchland should definitely be included (if you don't splash), and as long as it's cheaper than our current fetches it's a win for us.
You'd hit for 7 in this case, as E1 would have base power 6 and 1x +1/+1 counter. As AmicDeep and thatmarkguy stated this is why it's not that bad to use it on an Avatar, as it's always a +3/+2 pump, however, being a sorcery makes it a bit hard for us to justify playing it.
Level up 1 Mana
Level 3-7 it has protection from instants
Level 8+ protection from everything.
Double edit: I just realized that, when you level it up, it also has protection from our own instants. Being unable to pump him when it's a 4/4 seems less desirable.
Indo think this is what the deck needs as one thing I've noticed is the games that I tend to win are games when I just stick 3 one drops in the first 2 turns, and having this as also my turn three play seems very nice, I agree soc speed is a big let down but at least it's not another card (like when they hit under aspect )
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Although the times we level him up to a 6/6 would be very few.. I think it can happen when games go a bit long.
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What trample creature would we play it on that we wouldn’t have rathered play might of old krosa instead?
It’s a worse giant growth on Avatar of the Resolute and Treetop Village.
The only creatures it’s at all better than krosa on, are e1 and pelty, where it’s +5/+3, compared to krosa’s +4/+4 (with instant-lesser-mode option). E1 doesn’t have trample at all and pelty only does once it has 3 or more counters on it.
That’s a pretty narrow set of circumstances where it’s one point of power better than krosa, a card we already decided against using. One point better a small percentage of the time and less versatile than a card we already dismissed.