look above. i posted some of the possibilities and a link to all the ones that produce r/g. you want every source to be able to produce red. so if you want 12-13 green sources, id check that link and see what you have and try to prevent yourself from playing ones that enter tapped. outside of copperline obviously
I'm aware that ally fetches are "affordable" compared to enemy fetches but they'll still run ~$60 a playset with shocklands not being too different at the moment. So a full (or even partial) suite of fetches and shocks will still run over $150. My budget was already spent on Eidolons and Goblin Guides for the time being anyway.
I'm currently thinking of using 4 copperline gorges, 4 rootbound crags, and some number or combination of Karplusan forests or Game Trails not exceeding 4. I'm just trying to guess how how feasible shadow lands are.
Your manabase should be 19-20 lands with something like 14-16 green sources.
Karplusan Forest is playable. Copperline is playable. After that, it's either not budget or not good enough. You should not play Game Trail or any check lands because you can't afford having lands entering tapped early in the game.
Honestly, you want fetches and shocks. And anything else would be inferior. I'd almost suggest playing mono red and using your winnings to upgrade incrementally.
I know they have an alternative way to win. They should side out the Laboratory Maniac win against Burn because they don't need it and it can be fragile against Burn (in principle).
Ad Nauseam is a downright horrible matchup for Burn. You don't actually gain very much by trying to beat them with Pithing Needle. You're basically guaranteed to be 0-1 going to your sideboard because it's such a bad matchup. If you "gotcha" them with Needle in game 2, you still have to do it again in game 3 or you've lost the match anyway. It's a waste of a sideboard slot that could be better spent on a matchup you actually have a chance in. If you're in a meta loaded with Ad Nauseam, your solution is probably to play something else rather than lose all the time.
Hello. Long time no post for me. Been very busy.
I've seen this sentiment posted a couple times now, and i am growing increasingly curious of how people are sideboarding against Ad Nauseum. I know most games are different and there are tons of variables, however, i have played this matchup quite a bit and rarely lose post-board. I board in 4DRev and 2Palm. Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you for your time.
I know they have an alternative way to win. They should side out the Laboratory Maniac win against Burn because they don't need it and it can be fragile against Burn (in principle).
Ad Nauseam is a downright horrible matchup for Burn. You don't actually gain very much by trying to beat them with Pithing Needle. You're basically guaranteed to be 0-1 going to your sideboard because it's such a bad matchup. If you "gotcha" them with Needle in game 2, you still have to do it again in game 3 or you've lost the match anyway. It's a waste of a sideboard slot that could be better spent on a matchup you actually have a chance in. If you're in a meta loaded with Ad Nauseam, your solution is probably to play something else rather than lose all the time.
Hello. Long time no post for me. Been very busy.
I've seen this sentiment posted a couple times now, and i am growing increasingly curious of how people are sideboarding against Ad Nauseum. I know most games are different and there are tons of variables, however, i have played this matchup quite a bit and rarely lose post-board. I board in 4DRev and 2Palm. Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you for your time.
Deflecting Palm is completely useless against Ad Nauseam. Once they draw their deck, they're holding several Pact of Negation and it's guaranteed to be countered. If it's been successful for you, you've been playing against bad opponents who are incorrectly siding out Pact.
You need to try to beat them before they have enough mana to win. Destructive Revelry is very strong here it slows down fast mana rocks. You also need it to blow up Unlife and Leyline. At that point, you're not likely to have enough DRevs to shut them down and race them. I just side in 4 DRev and cut Blaze.
I'm curious how you manage to rarely lose, because that seems almost impossible.
Alright, well then given the current meta, what should a mono-red burn deck carry in the sideboard?
Smash to Smithereens, Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt/Totem something or other from Ixalan?(I play Relic), a way to kill Kor Firewalker (Reality Hemorrhage/Pyrite Spellbomb), Perhaps a board wipe (Anger of the Gods, Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm), extra Searing Blaze/Blood effects, perhaps Exquisite Firecraft. That can probably get you to 15 cards.
Hey guys,
I'm pretty fresh to MTG and I've been playing this deck for a couple months now.
First, I want to thank all of you, this thread has been helping me A LOT so far.
But I'm still having some trouble with my sideboard.
My meta is pretty narrow. Lots of Abzan, Grixis DS and Jund. 1 Counters Company (nice fella, aweful deck tho), couple Mono W Prison, and only 1 burn player with the Nacatl version (so I don't really need Kor Firewalker to beat him).
Abzan is def my weakness. Game 1, easy. Game 2-3 just impossible to beat. Discarts and life gain are usually too much to handle. So maybe if I cut a land, add a Shard Volley, or just get rid of these Kor Firewalker on my SB. Exquisite Firecraft, even Flames of the Blood Hand maybe? I don't know, any thoughts?
Hey guys,
I'm pretty fresh to MTG and I've been playing this deck for a couple months now.
First, I want to thank all of you, this thread has been helping me A LOT so far.
But I'm still having some trouble with my sideboard.
My meta is pretty narrow. Lots of Abzan, Grixis DS and Jund. 1 Counters Company (nice fella, aweful deck tho), couple Mono W Prison, and only 1 burn player with the Nacatl version (so I don't really need Kor Firewalker to beat him).
Abzan is def my weakness. Game 1, easy. Game 2-3 just impossible to beat. Discarts and life gain are usually too much to handle. So maybe if I cut a land, add a Shard Volley, or just get rid of these Kor Firewalker on my SB. Exquisite Firecraft, even Flames of the Blood Hand maybe? I don't know, any thoughts?
I've been playing a single Shard Volley lately instead of the 4th Blaze. I'm not sure how much I like it. It's certainly let me win the game for 1 mana before, but I don't like seeing it in my opener and there are times when I'm holding it that I'd rather have Blaze.
If you aren't worried about Burn, then cutting Kor Firewalker is perfectly reasonable. Jund and Junk can be 50:50-ish matchups if they aren't built to beat Burn, but can definitely tailor their sideboards to ruin your day. When they build their deck in that way, they're generally overloading lifegain with stuff like Rhino, Thragtusk/Baloth, Finks, Brutality, Huntmaster. I'd play extra lifegain hate against them. You have fetchable green, so you could sideboard Atarka's Command instead of Flames of the Blood Hand in that slot. On the play, I would definitely bring Molten Rain but I'd remove it on the draw. I'd side out Blazes and some Lava Spikes for Path and Palm, on the play take more Spikes out for the Molten Rain. If it's a Grim Flayer build, you might want Relics to make those into 2/2s and shrink Goyfs.
just curious... i thought i read something about keeping ad nauseum off long enough by hitting their rocks with drev. is there any reason to possibly have Rain for this mu as well? keeping them off rocks and maybe 1 or 2 turns of mana might give us enough time? i only have 1 ad nauseum player and havent rly played against him much with burn so this may be way out of line
It might be ok considering they're loaded with non-basics and don't play any counters that they can easily use in such a situation but they might be close enough that they can pay for a Pact. I've never tried Molten Rain against them, but I don't play Molten Rain that often anyway.
I know they have an alternative way to win. They should side out the Laboratory Maniac win against Burn because they don't need it and it can be fragile against Burn (in principle).
Ad Nauseam is a downright horrible matchup for Burn. You don't actually gain very much by trying to beat them with Pithing Needle. You're basically guaranteed to be 0-1 going to your sideboard because it's such a bad matchup. If you "gotcha" them with Needle in game 2, you still have to do it again in game 3 or you've lost the match anyway. It's a waste of a sideboard slot that could be better spent on a matchup you actually have a chance in. If you're in a meta loaded with Ad Nauseam, your solution is probably to play something else rather than lose all the time.
Hello. Long time no post for me. Been very busy.
I've seen this sentiment posted a couple times now, and i am growing increasingly curious of how people are sideboarding against Ad Nauseum. I know most games are different and there are tons of variables, however, i have played this matchup quite a bit and rarely lose post-board. I board in 4DRev and 2Palm. Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you for your time.
Deflecting Palm is completely useless against Ad Nauseam. Once they draw their deck, they're holding several Pact of Negation and it's guaranteed to be countered. If it's been successful for you, you've been playing against bad opponents who are incorrectly siding out Pact.
You need to try to beat them before they have enough mana to win. Destructive Revelry is very strong here it slows down fast mana rocks. You also need it to blow up Unlife and Leyline. At that point, you're not likely to have enough DRevs to shut them down and race them. I just side in 4 DRev and cut Blaze.
I'm curious how you manage to rarely lose, because that seems almost impossible.
that is the quote that makes me think we could use Rain against them. I'm not huge on 3 Mana spells but what's quoted above makes it sound like we want to stop them before they can get the Mana to do everything so I know it requires us to cars out of our deck 1 in revelry to destroy a Mana Rock and the other being rain to hit a land but if it slows them down enough it may be worth it. But rain maybe just too slow compared to their deck. And it's counterable with pact. could maybe help in the e-tron match up looking at their primer they will be playing 16 minimum non-basics. if only rain was 2 cmc... I'd take rain with no damage for 2 CMC tbh. lol
Hi folks, im curious about what are your thougths in our matchup vs 5c humans? It's a quite new deck and in my lgs we dont have anyone that have it to test for myself, do you think that we are favoured?
I haven't run into it much (think I'm 1-1 against it). Blaze, Blood, and Lavamancer are strong against them. They can ruin your day with freebooter into meddling mage, though. They can also produce a swarm and just run you over. However, you should be able to race them often.
Elconquistador, I’m checking your list and comparing it with my own which is basically RWg where I play 1 Stomping Ground and Skullcracks where you play Atarka’s.
I’m doubting whether I should follow your list, the only thing that concerns me is Atarka’s. While it’s a very powerful card, don’t we need more creatures to benefit from the 2 usual modes? Also, where with Skullcrack I feel you play more in response to your opponent, Atarka’s is often more straight forward and will be cast during your own combat phase to pump your team. This to me feels like because you are probably going tapped out there, you give your opponent a turn where they can do whatever they want as you can’t play anything. Now I know Atarka’s gives a ton of pressure especially combined with a Swiftspear. I’m just curious as to how you see this.
Atarka's Command is more flexible than Skull Crack. You can play AC as a Skull Crack or you can use it to pump your team/ramp you. I personally see it much like Boros Charm. Usually you get in the 4 damage but occasionally you have to use the other modes.
You do need creatures to get utility out of the pump mode, but I view the pump mode as a perk on top of the skullcrack mode.
When I play skullcrack, it's either player only lightning strike or player lightning strike that shuts down life gain. When I play Atarka's Command, it's either the same as skullcrack (short of damage can't be prevented, which I don't value highly) or player lightning strike that produces a back being amount of damage via creatures. While I need creatures to get that, I don't feel compelled to play more of them because if I have none then AC is almost the same as skullcrack.
The floor is skullcrack, and the ceiling is sky high. The fact that the probability of getting more than skullcrack out of it is non-zero and positive, so it's better than skullcrack to me. I'm also willing to pay life for green in order to get that ceiling.
If I can choose between mashed potatoes and mashed potatoes with gravy, I'm picking gravy every time.
You do need creatures to get utility out of the pump mode, but I view the pump mode as a perk on top of the skullcrack mode.
When I play skullcrack, it's either player only lightning strike or player lightning strike that shuts down life gain. When I play Atarka's Command, it's either the same as skullcrack (short of damage can't be prevented, which I don't value highly) or player lightning strike that produces a back being amount of damage via creatures. While I need creatures to get that, I don't feel compelled to play more of them because if I have none then AC is almost the same as skullcrack.
The floor is skullcrack, and the ceiling is sky high. The fact that the probability of getting more than skullcrack out of it is non-zero and positive, so it's better than skullcrack to me. I'm also willing to pay life for green in order to get that ceiling.
If I can choose between mashed potatoes and mashed potatoes with gravy, I'm picking gravy every time.
The floor if you draw Atarka's Command is "Skullcrack; you lose 2 life." Though, there are many games where you don't draw it and you had to pay the 2 life anyway. I'm still on the fence if it's worth it or not.
I haven't seen Atarka's Command in any recent top 8 lists. Not sure why anyone would play RWG over RWg in this meta.
Straight Boros (with a single Stomping ground and DRev in the SB) is much more streamlined and redundant than Naya Burn. The meta is much faster now than it was 1-2 years ago, and Atarka's command only slow the deck down.
You do need creatures to get utility out of the pump mode, but I view the pump mode as a perk on top of the skullcrack mode.
When I play skullcrack, it's either player only lightning strike or player lightning strike that shuts down life gain. When I play Atarka's Command, it's either the same as skullcrack (short of damage can't be prevented, which I don't value highly) or player lightning strike that produces a back being amount of damage via creatures. While I need creatures to get that, I don't feel compelled to play more of them because if I have none then AC is almost the same as skullcrack.
The floor is skullcrack, and the ceiling is sky high. The fact that the probability of getting more than skullcrack out of it is non-zero and positive, so it's better than skullcrack to me. I'm also willing to pay life for green in order to get that ceiling.
If I can choose between mashed potatoes and mashed potatoes with gravy, I'm picking gravy every time.
The floor if you draw Atarka's Command is "Skullcrack; you lose 2 life." Though, there are many games where you don't draw it and you had to pay the 2 life anyway. I'm still on the fence if it's worth it or not.
If that's the case, then I assume you play straight RW and no DRev, right? After all, you wouldn't want to pay 2 life for the DRevs that are sitting in your sideboard.
Perhaps there's some finesse involved with fetching for 2 splash colors, but I don't find that having maindeck green is a serious detriment. There are instances where I end up screwed on colors, but I don't believe they are substantial and they are generally situations where I'd be screwed on land count anyway and therefore are effectively the same scenario as I would have experienced with Skullcrack instead. Is it possible to draw Foundry, Foundry, Mountain, Mountain? Sure, but it's rare.
I haven't seen Atarka's Command in any recent top 8 lists. Not sure why anyone would play RWG over RWg in this meta.
Straight Boros (with a single Stomping ground and DRev in the SB) is much more streamlined and redundant than Naya Burn. The meta is much faster now than it was 1-2 years ago, and Atarka's command only slow the deck down.
If the meta is much faster, I think that supports playing Atarka's Command builds because they are faster than RW and RWg builds. It's easier to assemble T3 and T4 wins off of AC. AC is necessarily at least as fast as a build that swaps Skullcrack for it. It's 2 mana and 3 damage at its worst, and that's identical to Skullcrack. Frankly, I think an AC build is stronger against ETron because it's easier to turn a slow start on their side into an immediate game win.
Affinity has always existed, and we've played AC in a meta with Affinity near the top (AC is better because of Reach, too). AC is better than Skullcrack against Storm. I think it's better against all flavors of Tron. They're the same against Jeskai because they're going to be lifegain hate... About the only new development is that GDS exists and Fatal Push exists. I'll concede that it could be worse against GDS because you're spotting them so much damage.
Your manabase should be 19-20 lands with something like 14-16 green sources.
Karplusan Forest is playable. Copperline is playable. After that, it's either not budget or not good enough. You should not play Game Trail or any check lands because you can't afford having lands entering tapped early in the game.
Honestly, you want fetches and shocks. And anything else would be inferior. I'd almost suggest playing mono red and using your winnings to upgrade incrementally.
Hello. Long time no post for me. Been very busy.
I've seen this sentiment posted a couple times now, and i am growing increasingly curious of how people are sideboarding against Ad Nauseum. I know most games are different and there are tons of variables, however, i have played this matchup quite a bit and rarely lose post-board. I board in 4DRev and 2Palm. Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you for your time.
Deflecting Palm is completely useless against Ad Nauseam. Once they draw their deck, they're holding several Pact of Negation and it's guaranteed to be countered. If it's been successful for you, you've been playing against bad opponents who are incorrectly siding out Pact.
You need to try to beat them before they have enough mana to win. Destructive Revelry is very strong here it slows down fast mana rocks. You also need it to blow up Unlife and Leyline. At that point, you're not likely to have enough DRevs to shut them down and race them. I just side in 4 DRev and cut Blaze.
I'm curious how you manage to rarely lose, because that seems almost impossible.
Smash to Smithereens, Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt/Totem something or other from Ixalan?(I play Relic), a way to kill Kor Firewalker (Reality Hemorrhage/Pyrite Spellbomb), Perhaps a board wipe (Anger of the Gods, Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm), extra Searing Blaze/Blood effects, perhaps Exquisite Firecraft. That can probably get you to 15 cards.
I'm pretty fresh to MTG and I've been playing this deck for a couple months now.
First, I want to thank all of you, this thread has been helping me A LOT so far.
But I'm still having some trouble with my sideboard.
My meta is pretty narrow. Lots of Abzan, Grixis DS and Jund. 1 Counters Company (nice fella, aweful deck tho), couple Mono W Prison, and only 1 burn player with the Nacatl version (so I don't really need Kor Firewalker to beat him).
Abzan is def my weakness. Game 1, easy. Game 2-3 just impossible to beat. Discarts and life gain are usually too much to handle. So maybe if I cut a land, add a Shard Volley, or just get rid of these Kor Firewalker on my SB. Exquisite Firecraft, even Flames of the Blood Hand maybe? I don't know, any thoughts?
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells (28)
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Helix
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Stomping Ground
3 Mountain
3 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Molten Rain
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
I've been playing a single Shard Volley lately instead of the 4th Blaze. I'm not sure how much I like it. It's certainly let me win the game for 1 mana before, but I don't like seeing it in my opener and there are times when I'm holding it that I'd rather have Blaze.
If you aren't worried about Burn, then cutting Kor Firewalker is perfectly reasonable. Jund and Junk can be 50:50-ish matchups if they aren't built to beat Burn, but can definitely tailor their sideboards to ruin your day. When they build their deck in that way, they're generally overloading lifegain with stuff like Rhino, Thragtusk/Baloth, Finks, Brutality, Huntmaster. I'd play extra lifegain hate against them. You have fetchable green, so you could sideboard Atarka's Command instead of Flames of the Blood Hand in that slot. On the play, I would definitely bring Molten Rain but I'd remove it on the draw. I'd side out Blazes and some Lava Spikes for Path and Palm, on the play take more Spikes out for the Molten Rain. If it's a Grim Flayer build, you might want Relics to make those into 2/2s and shrink Goyfs.
that is the quote that makes me think we could use Rain against them. I'm not huge on 3 Mana spells but what's quoted above makes it sound like we want to stop them before they can get the Mana to do everything so I know it requires us to cars out of our deck 1 in revelry to destroy a Mana Rock and the other being rain to hit a land but if it slows them down enough it may be worth it. But rain maybe just too slow compared to their deck. And it's counterable with pact. could maybe help in the e-tron match up looking at their primer they will be playing 16 minimum non-basics. if only rain was 2 cmc... I'd take rain with no damage for 2 CMC tbh. lol
I haven't run into it much (think I'm 1-1 against it). Blaze, Blood, and Lavamancer are strong against them. They can ruin your day with freebooter into meddling mage, though. They can also produce a swarm and just run you over. However, you should be able to race them often.
It's basically merfolk without good lords.
I’m doubting whether I should follow your list, the only thing that concerns me is Atarka’s. While it’s a very powerful card, don’t we need more creatures to benefit from the 2 usual modes? Also, where with Skullcrack I feel you play more in response to your opponent, Atarka’s is often more straight forward and will be cast during your own combat phase to pump your team. This to me feels like because you are probably going tapped out there, you give your opponent a turn where they can do whatever they want as you can’t play anything. Now I know Atarka’s gives a ton of pressure especially combined with a Swiftspear. I’m just curious as to how you see this.
Thanks
DC
When I play skullcrack, it's either player only lightning strike or player lightning strike that shuts down life gain. When I play Atarka's Command, it's either the same as skullcrack (short of damage can't be prevented, which I don't value highly) or player lightning strike that produces a back being amount of damage via creatures. While I need creatures to get that, I don't feel compelled to play more of them because if I have none then AC is almost the same as skullcrack.
The floor is skullcrack, and the ceiling is sky high. The fact that the probability of getting more than skullcrack out of it is non-zero and positive, so it's better than skullcrack to me. I'm also willing to pay life for green in order to get that ceiling.
If I can choose between mashed potatoes and mashed potatoes with gravy, I'm picking gravy every time.
For SB, probably 3 relic, 3 path, 2 palm, 3-4 smash to smithereens or wear//tear, perhaps searing blood, Firecraft, grim lavamancer.
The floor if you draw Atarka's Command is "Skullcrack; you lose 2 life." Though, there are many games where you don't draw it and you had to pay the 2 life anyway. I'm still on the fence if it's worth it or not.
Straight Boros (with a single Stomping ground and DRev in the SB) is much more streamlined and redundant than Naya Burn. The meta is much faster now than it was 1-2 years ago, and Atarka's command only slow the deck down.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
If that's the case, then I assume you play straight RW and no DRev, right? After all, you wouldn't want to pay 2 life for the DRevs that are sitting in your sideboard.
Perhaps there's some finesse involved with fetching for 2 splash colors, but I don't find that having maindeck green is a serious detriment. There are instances where I end up screwed on colors, but I don't believe they are substantial and they are generally situations where I'd be screwed on land count anyway and therefore are effectively the same scenario as I would have experienced with Skullcrack instead. Is it possible to draw Foundry, Foundry, Mountain, Mountain? Sure, but it's rare.
If the meta is much faster, I think that supports playing Atarka's Command builds because they are faster than RW and RWg builds. It's easier to assemble T3 and T4 wins off of AC. AC is necessarily at least as fast as a build that swaps Skullcrack for it. It's 2 mana and 3 damage at its worst, and that's identical to Skullcrack. Frankly, I think an AC build is stronger against ETron because it's easier to turn a slow start on their side into an immediate game win.
Affinity has always existed, and we've played AC in a meta with Affinity near the top (AC is better because of Reach, too). AC is better than Skullcrack against Storm. I think it's better against all flavors of Tron. They're the same against Jeskai because they're going to be lifegain hate... About the only new development is that GDS exists and Fatal Push exists. I'll concede that it could be worse against GDS because you're spotting them so much damage.