I think Kor Firewalker could be playable against them, but that's probably more of a mono-R Phoenix card.
I'd play Path (taking out some Lava Spikes) and I'd make sure I have enough Blazes. I wouldn't bring Blood because it's not guaranteed damage. Other than that, race them. I think it feels like a weird Delver deck, so a little removal and pressure should do it.
Btw has anyone tested cindervines over drev? (not just theorycrafted)
Reasons why it was good / bad?
I've tested it a lot actually. I'm at work right now so excuse my lack of notes as backup. It's both better and worse depending on your matchup and meta.
Better against spell heavy decks. It wrecks UW control, jeskai control, solid against a grindy burn mirror (terrible if mirror has a nut draw though). It was awesome vs kci and is decent against storm. Basically longer matches and/or higher spell density is where it shines.
The antithesis and where it's worse is fast aggro matches with lots of creatures. It isn't on the board long enough to make a difference with ping damage here. It's also substantially worse vs artifacts or enchantments that need to be removed immediately ie- leylines, chalice etc. Here, you always need to hold an extra mana up to make it worthwhile and can't remove chalice 1 until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like reverly better in the end for two reasons. First, it's faster instant speed interaction. Second, the decks where cindervines is great, we already have a good matchup. It felt win more to me.
Burn went:
6-1 versus Elves
26-6 versus Green Tron
15-4 versus Spirits
4-10 versus Affinity
9-14 versus White-Blue Control
4-10 versus Red Phoenix
1-5 versus Eldrazi
1-6 versus Bogles
2-15 versus Rock
0-7 versus Amulet Titan
I'm not surprised about getting run over by Bogles, Eldrazi, or Titan. I am surprised at the abysmal win rate against Rock. BGx decks should be a little better than even for Burn.
Burn went:
6-1 versus Elves
26-6 versus Green Tron
15-4 versus Spirits
4-10 versus Affinity
9-14 versus White-Blue Control
4-10 versus Red Phoenix
1-5 versus Eldrazi
1-6 versus Bogles
2-15 versus Rock
0-7 versus Amulet Titan
I'm not surprised about getting run over by Bogles, Eldrazi, or Titan. I am surprised at the abysmal win rate against Rock. BGx decks should be a little better than even for Burn.
Rock is better versus Burn than either Jund or Abzan. It takes less pain from its mana-base and it typically runs three Scavenging Ooze and one or two Collective Brutality in the main-deck. Most Rock decks will have another copy or two of CB in the side-board.
Inquisition of Kozilek is always a three or four-of and it's the best card going against Burn. A quick Liliana of the Veil can also help deplete a Burn player's hand.
Btw has anyone tested cindervines over drev? (not just theorycrafted)
Reasons why it was good / bad?
I've tested it a lot actually. I'm at work right now so excuse my lack of notes as backup. It's both better and worse depending on your matchup and meta.
Better against spell heavy decks. It wrecks UW control, jeskai control, solid against a grindy burn mirror (terrible if mirror has a nut draw though). It was awesome vs kci and is decent against storm. Basically longer matches and/or higher spell density is where it shines.
The antithesis and where it's worse is fast aggro matches with lots of creatures. It isn't on the board long enough to make a difference with ping damage here. It's also substantially worse vs artifacts or enchantments that need to be removed immediately ie- leylines, chalice etc. Here, you always need to hold an extra mana up to make it worthwhile and can't remove chalice 1 until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like reverly better in the end for two reasons. First, it's faster instant speed interaction. Second, the decks where cindervines is great, we already have a good matchup. It felt win more to me.
I've also tested Cindervines and I support this interpretation. Cindervines is more flexible, and Revelry is more immediate. I actually prefer Vines, because I feel like versus Leyline/Chalice decks, you want to tap out to play your destruction spell on turn two anyways and hopefully swing with the creature you played on turn one. So, I think you can afford the time to pop it on turn three for a mana, since you weren't using any more mana on turn two anyways. Having said that, this does give them a whole turn to deal with the enchantment, although I'm not sure who would have enchantment hate against us post-board. I am also aware that using a mana to pop Cindervines could potentially mean another burn spell that you can't play on turn three. Nevertheless, I think the flexibility against control/spell heavy decks is worth the extra turn, but that's a preference. I think it's a deceptively personal choice, and there's no "this one is better, always" answer.
Regarding the rock, I agree it's tough to play against thanks to hand disruption and their creatures. I have a really good success rate against it though. Looking at my notes, I'm currently 7-1 vs the deck at large tournaments. In all matchups, my success has been after dropping RIP, stabilizing the board and playing the slow game. My opponents were always ahead and a resolved RIP ended the threat and board presence of goyfs, scooze, and finks. The matches were all grindy going to turn 8 or more and 6 of my wins came at the hands of top decking burn or dying the following turn on the counter swing. I find there's very little room for error in spell sequencing against this deck and redundancy in cards is our best advantage. I'd be interested to hear if others have success stories by different means?
@Creevian, thanks for your thoughts about cindervines. I find it interesting we agree on so much but came to different conclusions. Along with you I don't think there's a wrong answer as both are viable.
Rock is better versus Burn than either Jund or Abzan. It takes less pain from its mana-base and it typically runs three Scavenging Ooze and one or two Collective Brutality in the main-deck. Most Rock decks will have another copy or two of CB in the side-board.
Inquisition of Kozilek is always a three or four-of and it's the best card going against Burn. A quick Liliana of the Veil can also help deplete a Burn player's hand.
Burn-hating Jund and Junk lists could be built, but it just didn't happen all that often because it made the deck worse in other situations.
A strong draw from such a deck can be unbeatable for Burn. Those draws aren't so common that 2-15 is an expected outcome, and I think that Burn is still favored to the tune of 55:45 or 60:40 against "Tarmogoyf decks" of any variety. I don't buy that Rock is a lopsided matchup so heavily favored against Burn that it's approximately as favored as Burn vs. Tron.
Rock is better versus Burn than either Jund or Abzan. It takes less pain from its mana-base and it typically runs three Scavenging Ooze and one or two Collective Brutality in the main-deck. Most Rock decks will have another copy or two of CB in the side-board.
Inquisition of Kozilek is always a three or four-of and it's the best card going against Burn. A quick Liliana of the Veil can also help deplete a Burn player's hand.
Burn-hating Jund and Junk lists could be built, but it just didn't happen all that often because it made the deck worse in other situations.
A strong draw from such a deck can be unbeatable for Burn. Those draws aren't so common that 2-15 is an expected outcome, and I think that Burn is still favored to the tune of 55:45 or 60:40 against "Tarmogoyf decks" of any variety. I don't buy that Rock is a lopsided matchup so heavily favored against Burn that it's approximately as favored as Burn vs. Tron.
Seventeen games is a small sample. Rock is considered about an even match-up for Burn, at least, that's what the Rock primer says.
Hi fellow burn mages. I have a GP this weekend and could use your advice with my final 2 sideboard slots. I'm at work so not a lot of time to post (sorry for no decklist). I'm running Boros stock list with 2 helix, 2 skullcrack in the main.
SB is as follows:
3 x cindervines - creevian this addition is for you buddy
3 x RIP
3 x Path to Exile
2 x Skullcrack
2 x Defecting Palm
2 x ???
My thought debate is exquisite firecraft for control decks or Searing Blood for creature decks. I'm leaning towards blood. I'm curious what you guys think in the meta right now. Thanks guys, you all rock!
I played Shard Volley back in the day and it can bite you in the ass. The lower the land-count and the more copies of it the more likely the ass-biting becomes. I went down to one or two copies pretty quickly. I don't actually remember how many. I think I am going to try a copy or two in place of the Gonti's along with the second Grim Lavamancer and a card to be named later.
Dreadhorde Arcanist 1R
Creature - Zombie Wizard
Trample
Whenever Dreadhorde Arcanist attacks, you may cast target instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost less than or equal to Dreadhorde Arcanist's power from your graveyard without paying its mana cost. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
At first glance, it's sort of a slow red Snapcaster. At first, I thought it could be very strong, but thinking more about it, I think it suffers from being too slow and not affecting the opponent immediately.
Imagine you play it t2, you swing on t3, and you need to have cast a bolt or a spike, otherwise the trigger is meaningless. If you have one of those, then you've paid 1R and gotten what amounts to a Lightning Strike plus maybe 1 more damage from the body. It's only coming out ahead of you swing twice with it, at which point you've spent 2 mana and 1 card to replay 2 spent cards. That seems kind of magic Christmas land to me. I don't think it's good enough. It doesn't have to connect to get the trigger, but it does need to survive at least 1 swing and it can't start until t3.
The Dreadhorde Butcher might be ok in RB. There's a decent chance that it's a 2/2 quickly that has dealt 1 damage for RB. At that point, it does 3 damage by the time it dies (excluding Path) and you might be able to get more out of it. If you connect twice, it can deal 1+2+3=6 by the time it dies, and it can get there 1 turn before the other card does. Of course, it could also get stonewalled and go nowhere.
I agree with elconquistador. Dreadhorde Arcanist looks strong, but when you figure out all the possible outcomes it's almost always best as a 1-2 mana "deal 3 damage" istant. I have a for-fun wizard-burn build and maybe it's too slow even there, even compared to something like Viashino Pyromancer which always deals at least 2 damage thanks to its ETB trigger.
Dreadhorde Arcanist won't make it into modern burn for the same reasons Thermo-Alchemist, Keldon Marauders and Firebrand Archer don't make the modern cut - they represent no, or inessential, damage on their own and essentially nullify our turn 2 in which we could be dealing up to 6 damage without them. One could argue that Thermo-Alchemist can deal upwards of 3-4 damage the turn *after* it comes into play, and I think, in the long run, it's ultimately a better card in Burn than Dreadhorde Arcanist would ever be. The trample and power-matters clause of the Arcanist is meaningless in our decks.
I played Shard Volley back in the day and it can bite you in the ass. The lower the land-count and the more copies of it the more likely the ass-biting becomes. I went down to one or two copies pretty quickly. I don't actually remember how many. I think I am going to try a copy or two in place of the Gonti's along with the second Grim Lavamancer and a card to be named later.
I've been slowly acquiring cards for Modern Burn during the last years and I've finally put it together. I plan to bring it to GP Sao Paulo!
Since I'm new to the deck, I came here with tons of questions. I got really impressed with the primer, it answered most of them and brought lots of high quality info, analysis, guides...
I saw many recent lists don't bring Enchantment hate. How do you feel about that?
I have some copies of Wear/Tear but could also splash green for Cindervines or Destructive Revelry.
Any sideboard plans for the Izzet Phoenix matchup? I understand it is favorable one, but is it worth to bring something in?
Dreadhorde Arcanist won't make it into modern burn for the same reasons Thermo-Alchemist, Keldon Marauders and Firebrand Archer don't make the modern cut - they represent no, or inessential, damage on their own and essentially nullify our turn 2 in which we could be dealing up to 6 damage without them. One could argue that Thermo-Alchemist can deal upwards of 3-4 damage the turn *after* it comes into play, and I think, in the long run, it's ultimately a better card in Burn than Dreadhorde Arcanist would ever be. The trample and power-matters clause of the Arcanist is meaningless in our decks.
I agree with this and what others have said. Burn isn't the home for this card in Modern but it does look spicy. I think the home is Faithless Looting, pitch Living End and Ulamog (or something else big and scary). Cast Dreadhorde Arcanist turn 2 then swing turn 3 cast living end and bring Ulamog online. Or do something broken in other formats like cast Ancestral Recall without suspension. I do believe however that this card is the card engine that puts the death nail in the soon to be Faithless Looting coffin.
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I'd play Path (taking out some Lava Spikes) and I'd make sure I have enough Blazes. I wouldn't bring Blood because it's not guaranteed damage. Other than that, race them. I think it feels like a weird Delver deck, so a little removal and pressure should do it.
Thanks guys!
I've been thinking a lot and finally I'll play this.
Creatures
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Spells
4 Boros Charm
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skewer the Critics
Lands
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
2 Deflecting Palm
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Path to Exile
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Skullcrack
2 Smash to Smithereens
Reasons why it was good / bad?
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I've tested it a lot actually. I'm at work right now so excuse my lack of notes as backup. It's both better and worse depending on your matchup and meta.
Better against spell heavy decks. It wrecks UW control, jeskai control, solid against a grindy burn mirror (terrible if mirror has a nut draw though). It was awesome vs kci and is decent against storm. Basically longer matches and/or higher spell density is where it shines.
The antithesis and where it's worse is fast aggro matches with lots of creatures. It isn't on the board long enough to make a difference with ping damage here. It's also substantially worse vs artifacts or enchantments that need to be removed immediately ie- leylines, chalice etc. Here, you always need to hold an extra mana up to make it worthwhile and can't remove chalice 1 until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like reverly better in the end for two reasons. First, it's faster instant speed interaction. Second, the decks where cindervines is great, we already have a good matchup. It felt win more to me.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-most-massive-modern-metagame-matchup-analysis-yet/
Burn went:
6-1 versus Elves
26-6 versus Green Tron
15-4 versus Spirits
4-10 versus Affinity
9-14 versus White-Blue Control
4-10 versus Red Phoenix
1-5 versus Eldrazi
1-6 versus Bogles
2-15 versus Rock
0-7 versus Amulet Titan
I'm not surprised about getting run over by Bogles, Eldrazi, or Titan. I am surprised at the abysmal win rate against Rock. BGx decks should be a little better than even for Burn.
Inquisition of Kozilek is always a three or four-of and it's the best card going against Burn. A quick Liliana of the Veil can also help deplete a Burn player's hand.
Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy can sometimes color-screw Boros long enough to make a difference.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I've also tested Cindervines and I support this interpretation. Cindervines is more flexible, and Revelry is more immediate. I actually prefer Vines, because I feel like versus Leyline/Chalice decks, you want to tap out to play your destruction spell on turn two anyways and hopefully swing with the creature you played on turn one. So, I think you can afford the time to pop it on turn three for a mana, since you weren't using any more mana on turn two anyways. Having said that, this does give them a whole turn to deal with the enchantment, although I'm not sure who would have enchantment hate against us post-board. I am also aware that using a mana to pop Cindervines could potentially mean another burn spell that you can't play on turn three. Nevertheless, I think the flexibility against control/spell heavy decks is worth the extra turn, but that's a preference. I think it's a deceptively personal choice, and there's no "this one is better, always" answer.
@Creevian, thanks for your thoughts about cindervines. I find it interesting we agree on so much but came to different conclusions. Along with you I don't think there's a wrong answer as both are viable.
Burn-hating Jund and Junk lists could be built, but it just didn't happen all that often because it made the deck worse in other situations.
A strong draw from such a deck can be unbeatable for Burn. Those draws aren't so common that 2-15 is an expected outcome, and I think that Burn is still favored to the tune of 55:45 or 60:40 against "Tarmogoyf decks" of any variety. I don't buy that Rock is a lopsided matchup so heavily favored against Burn that it's approximately as favored as Burn vs. Tron.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
SB is as follows:
3 x cindervines - creevian this addition is for you buddy
3 x RIP
3 x Path to Exile
2 x Skullcrack
2 x Defecting Palm
2 x ???
My thought debate is exquisite firecraft for control decks or Searing Blood for creature decks. I'm leaning towards blood. I'm curious what you guys think in the meta right now. Thanks guys, you all rock!
4 Guide
4 Swift
4 Spark
2 Grim
4 Bolt
4 Rift
4 Spike
4 Skewer
4 Bump
4 Gonti
4 Volley
18 lands
It's super fun! The idea is to kill T3/4 as often as possible.
I played Shard Volley back in the day and it can bite you in the ass. The lower the land-count and the more copies of it the more likely the ass-biting becomes. I went down to one or two copies pretty quickly. I don't actually remember how many. I think I am going to try a copy or two in place of the Gonti's along with the second Grim Lavamancer and a card to be named later.
Is "Spark" Spark Elemental?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Dreadhorde Arcanist
1R
Creature - Zombie Wizard
Trample
Whenever Dreadhorde Arcanist attacks, you may cast target instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost less than or equal to Dreadhorde Arcanist's power from your graveyard without paying its mana cost. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
Imagine you play it t2, you swing on t3, and you need to have cast a bolt or a spike, otherwise the trigger is meaningless. If you have one of those, then you've paid 1R and gotten what amounts to a Lightning Strike plus maybe 1 more damage from the body. It's only coming out ahead of you swing twice with it, at which point you've spent 2 mana and 1 card to replay 2 spent cards. That seems kind of magic Christmas land to me. I don't think it's good enough. It doesn't have to connect to get the trigger, but it does need to survive at least 1 swing and it can't start until t3.
The Dreadhorde Butcher might be ok in RB. There's a decent chance that it's a 2/2 quickly that has dealt 1 damage for RB. At that point, it does 3 damage by the time it dies (excluding Path) and you might be able to get more out of it. If you connect twice, it can deal 1+2+3=6 by the time it dies, and it can get there 1 turn before the other card does. Of course, it could also get stonewalled and go nowhere.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Yeah, Spark Elemental!
I've been slowly acquiring cards for Modern Burn during the last years and I've finally put it together. I plan to bring it to GP Sao Paulo!
Since I'm new to the deck, I came here with tons of questions. I got really impressed with the primer, it answered most of them and brought lots of high quality info, analysis, guides...
Here's what I plan to play:
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Arid Mesa
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Sacred Foundry
3x Inspiring Vantage
3x Mountain
Creatures (13)
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
1x Grim Lavamancer
4x Boros Charm
4x Lava Spike
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Searing Blaze
3x Lightning Helix
3x Skewer the Critics
3x Skullcrack
2x Deflecting Palm
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Kor Firewalker
3x Path to Exile
4x Rest in Peace
1x Skullcrack
2x Smash to Smithereens
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I saw many recent lists don't bring Enchantment hate. How do you feel about that?
I have some copies of Wear/Tear but could also splash green for Cindervines or Destructive Revelry.
Any sideboard plans for the Izzet Phoenix matchup? I understand it is favorable one, but is it worth to bring something in?
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
I agree with this and what others have said. Burn isn't the home for this card in Modern but it does look spicy. I think the home is Faithless Looting, pitch Living End and Ulamog (or something else big and scary). Cast Dreadhorde Arcanist turn 2 then swing turn 3 cast living end and bring Ulamog online. Or do something broken in other formats like cast Ancestral Recall without suspension. I do believe however that this card is the card engine that puts the death nail in the soon to be Faithless Looting coffin.