Now we have to ask the same eternal question : do we really need enchantment removal ? if no, then we can consider being just RW instead of RW/g by putting smash to smithereens in our sideboard (
which enchantment is played right now that is causing us some trouble ?
Leyline : is it still played ?
Worship : it might be played as a 1-2of in the sideboard of humans or spirit ... i still wouldnt side in my disenchant for that
boggles : we are loosing that match anyway, the disenchant wont help that much. just board in skullcrack/deflecting palm and hope to get lucky
The answer to your questions can be found here. About 5-6% of decks in the sample played Worship. About 2-3% played Leyline. Daybreak Coronet is in about 2% of decks. At a glance, I see no reason for Burn to care about enchantments right now and I haven't felt that Burn should care about enchantments for quite some time. I've been on Smash for a while now.
Tks a lot mate, great list.. i was try 1 copy risk factor and seens good... What do u think about risk and shained to rocks....
I think Risk Factor is unplayable. I think Mike Flores's reasoning for Chained to the Rocks is sound, and I've tried it in the past but got burned by Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin and went back to Path to Exile because of it. I could see myself playing Chained again, though.
I think Risk Factor is unplayable. I think Mike Flores's reasoning for Chained to the Rocks is sound, and I've tried it in the past but got burned by Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin and went back
to Path to Exile because of it. I could see myself playing Chained again, though.
I thank you for exposing your perspective. it would be possible to share your side plan.
One last question would you recommend some guide / forum for burn legacy to the model of this one?
I wrote the primer and so I'm to blame for things that are incorrect in the sideboard stuff there. It's less of a sideboarding guide than it is a guide for assembling a sideboard.
I tend to sideboard on the fly rather than adhere to a specific plan. It amounts to me looking at the sideboard and thinking about what I want and what can come out of the moment. It's generally consistent with what in the primer.
As far as Legacy Burn, I check out the mtgsalvation legacy thread from time to time and I also check in on the one at mtgthesource.com. The Source is well known for being the place for Legacy discussion.
Just wanted to add to the enchantment hate discussion. As Worship is the primary problem right now, you are even more rewarded for playing black, as both bump and gontis machinations (i think it is playable in rakdos but certainly the worst cmc 1 burn spell) cause loss of life.
It is very satisfying to calmly sit and explain why your opponent is at -2 and not at 1 while slowly watching their jaw drop, believe me...
Only 1 in 20 decks plays Worship. It's hardly a problem worth worrying about. I just consider those matchups lost and focus on winning the winnable ones.
Using the detailed guide from Creevian_Legacy at page 88, I am wondering what would change at playing 4 Shard volley ?
A lot of player are afraid of it and say that they would not play under 20 lands if they would play 4 shard volley.
For being concret, with a deck with a curve 32 - 8, I watch this analysis telling me that I should probably go to 18 lands. If we count Shard volley as two drop, then 28-12 similiar to what we use, so I read that 19 is probably the best choice. Why should I go to 20 lands ?
Then, at playing a card like Light up the stage which is most of time R: Draw 2, does that change something ? I ask this question for his similitude with Faithless looting that allows a low land count because it sculps your hand. Altough LutS is not Looting and can not be casted on turn one which is a big difference, also that it needs two manas on turn two.
Finally, about playing 8 Spectacle spells in a curve 32-8 or 28-12, should we consider them as one drop ? Or should we consider them as three drop when top deck mode ? I ask this question because they also rise to land count to 19 or 20 to be sure to be able to cast them.
The graphic and analysis of Creevian shows me what I already know, 20 lands gives an high chance to be flooded of lands. So, 18 or 19 or 20 ?
I used to play 4 Shard Volley with 19 lands for over a year and never once had an issue with it. I still play with 19 lands but have since removed Shard Volley from the deck. If you choose to run i, just remember, it's your finisher and should be the last spell you sequence. Otherwise you risk running short on mana for the next round if the spell is countered.
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
I used to play 4 Shard Volley with 19 lands for over a year and never once had an issue with it. I still play with 19 lands but have since removed Shard Volley from the deck. If you choose to run i, just remember, it's your finisher and should be the last spell you sequence. Otherwise you risk running short on mana for the next round if the spell is countered.
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
Light Up the Stage allows you to cast the cards until the end of your NEXT turn, so there's that.
So far online I’ve seen Light Up the Stage do great things. The handiest thing it does is remove unwanted lands from the top of your deck. Even if it exiles two lands, so what? You’re just more likely to draw gas the following turn, and you’ll still get to make a land drop if necessary! And that’s the WORST CASE SCENARIO!
That being said, this deck still wants a critical mass of BURN, so I wouldn’t run more than two copies.
Using the detailed guide from Creevian_Legacy at page 88, I am wondering what would change at playing 4 Shard volley ?
A lot of player are afraid of it and say that they would not play under 20 lands if they would play 4 shard volley.
For being concret, with a deck with a curve 32 - 8, I watch this analysis telling me that I should probably go to 18 lands. If we count Shard volley as two drop, then 28-12 similiar to what we use, so I read that 19 is probably the best choice. Why should I go to 20 lands ?
Then, at playing a card like Light up the stage which is most of time R: Draw 2, does that change something ? I ask this question for his similitude with Faithless looting that allows a low land count because it sculps your hand. Altough LutS is not Looting and can not be casted on turn one which is a big difference, also that it needs two manas on turn two.
Finally, about playing 8 Spectacle spells in a curve 32-8 or 28-12, should we consider them as one drop ? Or should we consider them as three drop when top deck mode ? I ask this question because they also rise to land count to 19 or 20 to be sure to be able to cast them.
The graphic and analysis of Creevian shows me what I already know, 20 lands gives an high chance to be flooded of lands. So, 18 or 19 or 20 ?
I'm a big proponent of Shard Volley, so I'll give my opinion. I personally wouldn't let my number of Shard Volleys influence my land count; I would let my land count influence my number of Shard Volleys. By that I mean, we already know that Burn wants to typically see no more than three lands and we also really like to see two. One landers are doable, but a bit of a bumpy ride, and four lands we need to draw straight gas to make it work. I believe there is a mathematically correct number of lands to play to optimize what I just described, and that's what I attempted to offer with my write-up; I believe that number is either 18 or 19, with either one being almost equally correct and favoring different minor individual variables. Shard Volley is great, but it isn't so good that it should change what I just described.
Therefore, I believe the correct number of Shard Volleys is the number so that you typically only see one. I wouldn't count it as a two drop, I would count it as a one drop that should usually be the last spell I cast in a game. You can use Frank Karsten's second chart on this page to determine the percentage you feel comfortable with, and the turn that you want to account for. Personally, I echo Karsten's opinion that anything negative that happens greater than 10% of the time happens too often to be consistent for your Magic game. I also consider Burn to be a turn four/five combo deck, meaning we want to goldfish on turn four or turn five through disruption. As such, I can recommend three Shard Volleys, as this means seeing more than one by turn five happens only 8.4% of the time, and even turn six keeps you under 10%. You may have a riskier or a more risk-averse mindset, and choose different parameters; the chart should help you with your own definition.
Worth noting, I run two Shard Volleys because I feel it makes the most sense in terms of my 75 composition. Specifically, I would have to put a Skullcrack in the side to make room for it, and I'm currently using every sideboard slot I have. In addition, while I think under 10% is an acceptable risk factor, I don't think Volley is so important that we have to push it, and the 3% at turn 5 I get from running only two is a lot more comfortable. Nevertheless, I wouldn't bat an eye at someone running three.
Hi guys, I've been toying with this Mardu list and it's been doing really well! It's really fast and consistent game 1 with few creatures and 2 drops and then slows slightly down postboard and becomes more grindy. It does take some dmg from lands and Eidolons, but it's by far the fastest version of burn I have ever played. Enjoy!
Quick math: avg CMC 1,26, avg dmg pr. card 2,78 (assumption - GG, SS and Edolon do 2,1 and 2 dmg respectively) that means that the deck does on avg 16,68 dmg on turn 3 if we hit land drops. When the creatures do more dmg than assumed the deck goldfishes as early as turn 3..
Bump is neat because it gets around Worship, and should someone drop a leyline, there's always a chance we can get them with Rakdos Charm using their own creatures.
It's really looking like Spectacle is giving Burn the legs that it needs, and Mardu/Rakdos is looking more like the shell for it.
I used to play 4 Shard Volley with 19 lands for over a year and never once had an issue with it. I still play with 19 lands but have since removed Shard Volley from the deck. If you choose to run i, just remember, it's your finisher and should be the last spell you sequence. Otherwise you risk running short on mana for the next round if the spell is countered.
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
Light Up the Stage allows you to cast the cards until the end of your NEXT turn, so there's that.
That's a fantastic point that I totally overlooked SnowCrow. I'd like to change my opinion and say yes, it's definitely worth considering and testing LUtS (although I still don't like Faithless Looting in Burn - I'd rather just draw the needed spell). Reading below and looking at CatParty's comments about the deck thinning, I can certainly get behind that. So the ultimate question becomes, how many do we want to run? If we run 8 spectacle cards (4 Skewer, 4 Stage), what are the chances of top decking this and requiring 3 CMC?
I think that a Mardu list should play 0 Inspiring Vantage and 3 Blackcleave Cliffs. You need access to turn 1 black mana and you'd like it to be painless, but you never need turn 1 white (Chained requires a Foundry anyway). I'd be worried about 0 Skullcrack in the 75, and I think you could cut all copies of Dragon's Claw for that.
With so many people warming up to Black, I'd like to remind people of Gonti's Machinations. It requires you to fetch/shock with it in mind, but it's four more bolts with lifegain attached, and it's a spectacle enabler that you can pop when you need it. It also gets through both Worship and Leyline. The lifegain has also given me the turn I needed to win versus aggro decks multiple times. It's the worst bolt we have (other than arguably Shard Volley), but I do believe it's a bolt worth playing nonetheless.
I tested gontis m. When it came out and I'd def prefer any other spell over it. Usually your 1st one you want to hold and save up energy for future GM and pop it later. It's slow. It requires us to lose life which isn't that hard, true, and it only hits players which isn't str8 bad but after playing it, I wasn't satisfied. Even when popping it immediately I wasn't rly for it
Tks a lot mate, great list.. i was try 1 copy risk factor and seens good... What do u think about risk and shained to rocks....
I thank you for exposing your perspective. it would be possible to share your side plan.
One last question would you recommend some guide / forum for burn legacy to the model of this one?
I tend to sideboard on the fly rather than adhere to a specific plan. It amounts to me looking at the sideboard and thinking about what I want and what can come out of the moment. It's generally consistent with what in the primer.
As far as Legacy Burn, I check out the mtgsalvation legacy thread from time to time and I also check in on the one at mtgthesource.com. The Source is well known for being the place for Legacy discussion.
It is very satisfying to calmly sit and explain why your opponent is at -2 and not at 1 while slowly watching their jaw drop, believe me...
A lot of player are afraid of it and say that they would not play under 20 lands if they would play 4 shard volley.
For being concret, with a deck with a curve 32 - 8, I watch this analysis telling me that I should probably go to 18 lands. If we count Shard volley as two drop, then 28-12 similiar to what we use, so I read that 19 is probably the best choice. Why should I go to 20 lands ?
Then, at playing a card like Light up the stage which is most of time R: Draw 2, does that change something ? I ask this question for his similitude with Faithless looting that allows a low land count because it sculps your hand. Altough LutS is not Looting and can not be casted on turn one which is a big difference, also that it needs two manas on turn two.
Finally, about playing 8 Spectacle spells in a curve 32-8 or 28-12, should we consider them as one drop ? Or should we consider them as three drop when top deck mode ? I ask this question because they also rise to land count to 19 or 20 to be sure to be able to cast them.
The graphic and analysis of Creevian shows me what I already know, 20 lands gives an high chance to be flooded of lands. So, 18 or 19 or 20 ?
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
Light Up the Stage allows you to cast the cards until the end of your NEXT turn, so there's that.
That being said, this deck still wants a critical mass of BURN, so I wouldn’t run more than two copies.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
I'm a big proponent of Shard Volley, so I'll give my opinion. I personally wouldn't let my number of Shard Volleys influence my land count; I would let my land count influence my number of Shard Volleys. By that I mean, we already know that Burn wants to typically see no more than three lands and we also really like to see two. One landers are doable, but a bit of a bumpy ride, and four lands we need to draw straight gas to make it work. I believe there is a mathematically correct number of lands to play to optimize what I just described, and that's what I attempted to offer with my write-up; I believe that number is either 18 or 19, with either one being almost equally correct and favoring different minor individual variables. Shard Volley is great, but it isn't so good that it should change what I just described.
Therefore, I believe the correct number of Shard Volleys is the number so that you typically only see one. I wouldn't count it as a two drop, I would count it as a one drop that should usually be the last spell I cast in a game. You can use Frank Karsten's second chart on this page to determine the percentage you feel comfortable with, and the turn that you want to account for. Personally, I echo Karsten's opinion that anything negative that happens greater than 10% of the time happens too often to be consistent for your Magic game. I also consider Burn to be a turn four/five combo deck, meaning we want to goldfish on turn four or turn five through disruption. As such, I can recommend three Shard Volleys, as this means seeing more than one by turn five happens only 8.4% of the time, and even turn six keeps you under 10%. You may have a riskier or a more risk-averse mindset, and choose different parameters; the chart should help you with your own definition.
Worth noting, I run two Shard Volleys because I feel it makes the most sense in terms of my 75 composition. Specifically, I would have to put a Skullcrack in the side to make room for it, and I'm currently using every sideboard slot I have. In addition, while I think under 10% is an acceptable risk factor, I don't think Volley is so important that we have to push it, and the 3% at turn 5 I get from running only two is a lot more comfortable. Nevertheless, I wouldn't bat an eye at someone running three.
I'm ok with dropping to 3, since Affinity is not particularly common. However, Tron is still relevant and I like Smash there.
Quick math: avg CMC 1,26, avg dmg pr. card 2,78 (assumption - GG, SS and Edolon do 2,1 and 2 dmg respectively) that means that the deck does on avg 16,68 dmg on turn 3 if we hit land drops. When the creatures do more dmg than assumed the deck goldfishes as early as turn 3..
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Instant (13)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
2 Shard Volley
Sorcery (16)
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
4 Bump in the Night
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Inspiring Vantage
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Path to Exile
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Searing Blaze
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Searing Blood
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shrine of Burning Rage
Bump is neat because it gets around Worship, and should someone drop a leyline, there's always a chance we can get them with Rakdos Charm using their own creatures.
It's really looking like Spectacle is giving Burn the legs that it needs, and Mardu/Rakdos is looking more like the shell for it.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
That's a fantastic point that I totally overlooked SnowCrow. I'd like to change my opinion and say yes, it's definitely worth considering and testing LUtS (although I still don't like Faithless Looting in Burn - I'd rather just draw the needed spell). Reading below and looking at CatParty's comments about the deck thinning, I can certainly get behind that. So the ultimate question becomes, how many do we want to run? If we run 8 spectacle cards (4 Skewer, 4 Stage), what are the chances of top decking this and requiring 3 CMC?
Starting the paper grind tomorrow with this after about 100 matches on MTGO with RW Burn:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells (29)
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Inspiring Vantage
3 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
2 Skullcrack
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Risk Factor