Hey guys, I've been playing burn for awhile and noticed the new bolt that got spoiled so I came to check up on you all. My first initial impressions are this. One mana for 3 is the core of the deck. If the deck could be 20 lands and 40 lightning bolt it would with maybe 6-8 flex spots. So this card seems like a 4-of. obviously spectacle isn't a free activation but I think it would be on enough of the time to justify it as at least equal in power to rift bolt. I do think I would cut skullcracks and put them into the sideboard, but that's because I have lots of room since I personally don't run graveyard hate. Otherwise, I think boros charm is the cut. I'm not impressed with the card. It makes it hard to double spell early on and sometimes down the road, and unless you're playing against fetchland deck, it doesn't change the math. It certainly isn't better than our 1 mana spells, and lightning helix is necessary for racing and surviving the creature matchups. So if you have the sideboard room then I'd cut skullcracks but if not I'd cut the boros charms and lavamancer. Lavamancer isn't great anymore because spirits is the most popular vial deck now and it laughs at lavamancer. In fact, with this lower curve I might even consider cutting some charms and putting in 2 copies of shard volley.
I think there's now two viable builds. Boros and Rakdos. Rakdos has to figure out the sideboard but with getting the new bolt, it offers a replacement for helix and charm now so I will begin testing a list. Also Naya if you don't care about starting on 14 most games.
So guys, you really consider the skewer to be a card in the "core cards" 4of in the main deck of RW/g burn ?
I would really like to believe that, and then just leave 8-9 flex cards (skullcrack, helix, blaze) as elconquistador listed it in a early post. I totally agree with your list of core/flex cards.
The only thing that still makes me hesitate is only the "sorcery" part of the card :S
I'm currently playing 3 skullcrack, 4 blaze and 4 helix maindeck. Yes i know i could remove 1 blaze/1 helix to add 2-3 skewer.
I will try to test it before GP toronto, but i'm still hesitant :'(
If you guys have the deck on mtgo/coackatrice and also want to test the card (when it will be legal) please share us your comments here.
I do think it's likely going to prove it is good enough to be a core card. I think it's the closest to getting Chain Lightning that we'll ever see in Modern, and being a sorcery doesn't bother me at all. I know that I'd have no hesitation about adding Chain Lightning, and this is doing a good Chain Lightning impression if you can cast it for R sufficiently often.
I will give it some play on cockatrice when I can. I'll try to specifically detail instances of using Skewer and instances when it was bad (times it uncastable, for instance), be and average cmc, cast turn, etc.
@elconquistador, me neither im not a player who jumps on a new card just because its new. I always ask myself: what would i remove for that card, and is it better ?
Skewer is a good card. Almost good enough to make the 75. What makes the difference for me is the sorcery speed.
It will put a weight on your other instants just to be able to use the spectacle.
It feels like the setup cost to get there is just high enough to make me hesitate...
You say that you rarely end up with only 2 lands in play.
I agree with you.
In that case Then, why not play shard volley ?....
It will ALWAYS cost 1 and an instant, which is strictly better than skewer ...
Im still hesitant.
PS, im playing 3 skullcrack maindeck (0 side) and i believe i will keep them main for GP Toronto.
Theres so many accidental lifegain to balance the fact that 2 mana 3 damage is below average.
And i will be playing cinder lash instead of destructive revelry. It offers the possibility to be proactive instead of reactive, which is the vision that burn decks want to have. Just keep one mana up instead of 2.
And in worst case, its a 3 mana destrucive revelry. Anyway its not at turn 2 that you need to disenchant (ok maybe kci or hardened scales, but those games sometime you can disenchant turn 3 and still be ok)
And in bonus, you might get free damage point.
To me, Burn is a set of core cards that are nigh untouchable and then a set of flex cards. The core is this:
and that gets you to 47-48 cards that are generally only going to get replaced when something ridiculously powerful pushes them out (though I acknowledge that some people cut Eidolons).
The flex cards are typically filled out by some combination of the following:
and maybe Shard Volley gets a fun-of shot (I do this from time to time). Those flex cards can serve a prominent role in creature matchups (Blaze, Lavamancer), when lifegain matters (Skullcrack), or are just strong cards but possibly expendable due to CMC (Helix). I think that Skewer the Critics pushes out some of these flex cards. Just from a cursory search of 2-star or better decks on mtgtop8, Burn plays 3.1 Skullcrack, 3.7 Helix, 4 Blaze, 1.2 Grim Lavamancer, and 0.4 Shard Volley, and you need to fill 12-13 slots. For me, this is currently:
or play the 4 Helix and move all the Skullcracks over to the side. In a creature light meta, you could move the Blazes and keep the Skullcracks and Helices. There's room in those flex slots for some number of Skewer the Critics.
Specifically to "why not Shard Volley": I play 1 because I think that it's generally easy to pay Shard Volley's cost once per game. I'm less willing to pay it repeatedly, which is why I don't think that it's playable as more than a fun-of. By comparison, you aren't incurring a substantial cost in order to bend a Burn deck to pay R for Skewer the Critics (the cost is basically "play Burn"). Sometimes it'll cost 3, but you'll generally be fully capable of paying that in such situations. There might be some awkward situations against control where they're at 3 and you have Spike, Skewer, 3 lands, and they counter Spike, but that is not a substantial likelihood.
I agree a lot with that. In my meta I will do 4 Helix and 0 Skullcrack main.
I don't know if it's worth to splash green, even with that new enchantment.
Another idea to keep in the back of our minds for those considering Black based lists is that we'll also have access to a painless Thoughtseize in the form of the new card Drill Bit. If Burn is easily able to spectacle Skewer then the same should hold true for Drill Bit as well, and the dream of casting a painless Thoughtseize is a tantalising one. Of course, whether or not having a discard spell in the sideboard is something that Burn even wants at all is definitely still up for debate, but if it does want a discard spell then Drill Bit could be a spicy tech choice.
Rift Bolt and Lava Spike are both sorceries, and I never hear attempts to remove them. Yes, instant speed is better, but honestly how often is it relevant in this format? Against control, okay I'll bite. Death Shadow, okay though I don't think it is essential.
I dont think we will ever run a discard spell if it doesnt further our game plan of deal them 20.
Also heres another question... do you guys feel its better to just run S. Blood in sb or could Satyr be better? Both have pros and cons. If satyr lives it can be done more than once but searing blood only deals 2 and creatues in modern dont stay small for very long but it hits players which is part of our game plan...
Give me a discard spell for B that also shocks my opponent and I might be interested. A straight up discard spell isn't consistent with the Burn game plan.
As far as Satyr, I like Blood and Path as my creature answers, but I don't have any experience playing Satyr. I feel like most situations only require you to buy time long enough to win. I think Satyr also requires matchups with almost no removal, so I guess Affinity and Humans counts?
I do believe if a Burn player isn't running 4 Skewers, they're playing a suboptimal list. I honestly never thought we'd get a new bolt variant in Standard. I'm still shocked about it to be honest.
I do believe if a Burn player isn't running 4 Skewers, they're playing a suboptimal list. I honestly never thought we'd get a new bolt variant in Standard. I'm still shocked about it to be honest.
Which is funny, because Shock is in Standard. (Ba-dum tsss)
When has satyr ever been a good tech? This is kinda like wanting to run leyline of the void - we don't need to lock the opponent out of the game. The deck is fast enough that forcing the opponent to stumble is enough. RiP does that, even if they remove it the next turn is exiled the graveyard. Other cards deal damage at the same time as dealing with creatures, artifacts or enchantments.
So guys, you really consider the skewer to be a card in the "core cards" 4of in the main deck of RW/g burn ?
I would really like to believe that, and then just leave 8-9 flex cards (skullcrack, helix, blaze) as elconquistador listed it in a early post. I totally agree with your list of core/flex cards.
The only thing that still makes me hesitate is only the "sorcery" part of the card :S
I'm currently playing 3 skullcrack, 4 blaze and 4 helix maindeck. Yes i know i could remove 1 blaze/1 helix to add 2-3 skewer.
I will try to test it before GP toronto, but i'm still hesitant :'(
If you guys have the deck on mtgo/coackatrice and also want to test the card (when it will be legal) please share us your comments here.
I do think it's likely going to prove it is good enough to be a core card. I think it's the closest to getting Chain Lightning that we'll ever see in Modern, and being a sorcery doesn't bother me at all. I know that I'd have no hesitation about adding Chain Lightning, and this is doing a good Chain Lightning impression if you can cast it for R sufficiently often.
I will give it some play on cockatrice when I can. I'll try to specifically detail instances of using Skewer and instances when it was bad (times it uncastable, for instance), be and average cmc, cast turn, etc.
Wow coming back to this thread I knew there would be talk about the 2 new toys, but man is some of this is hilarious.
First off in NO way is Skewer remotely on the power level of Chain Lighting. Chain Lightning is ALWAYS 1 CMC under normal circumstances. It is more closer to Rift Bolt with Skewer getting an edge over it in some situations (mainly casting multiple burn spells in a turn without the delay associated with Rift Bolt). Rift Bolt gets the edge on turn 1 because you can't even cast Skewer on T1 (which you can at least suspend a Rift Bolt), and it also works better with Swiftspear coming off of suspend.
Skewer is however an auto include for any version of Modern burn.
I am on the verge of confidently stating that Rakdos is better than Boros. Rakdos has always been the faster deck but Boros was more of a resilient deck. Rakdos now only lacks enchantment hate which most Boros deck splash green for Destructive Revelry which should now be replaced by the new card Cinder Lash anyways. For the statements about Rakdos not having a sideboard that is absurd. Black brings Push to the table, but you can go Jund and play Assassin's Trophy to remove really the 2 most difficult things to deal with in Firewalker and Leyline with 1 card. This helps a ton when dealing with limited sideboard slots. Rain of Gore, Trophy, and Relic or Cage is really all you need.
Back to Cinder Lash for a moment. It is a touch slower than Revelry for sure, but overall it is a better card than Revelry for multiple reasons.
1. CS is better in multiples as you may not have additional targets for the other drawn copies of DR where as the static ability just stacks and thus will help close out the game.
2. CS gets utility even if they don't see their sb card.
3. CS's 1st ability is only for opponents and gets around Leyline since it doesn't target.
4. CS frees up having to hold up 2 Mana.
5. CS is proactive instead of reactive which is what burn prefers to do in general.
So guys, you really consider the skewer to be a card in the "core cards" 4of in the main deck of RW/g burn ?
I would really like to believe that, and then just leave 8-9 flex cards (skullcrack, helix, blaze) as elconquistador listed it in a early post. I totally agree with your list of core/flex cards.
The only thing that still makes me hesitate is only the "sorcery" part of the card :S
I'm currently playing 3 skullcrack, 4 blaze and 4 helix maindeck. Yes i know i could remove 1 blaze/1 helix to add 2-3 skewer.
I will try to test it before GP toronto, but i'm still hesitant :'(
If you guys have the deck on mtgo/coackatrice and also want to test the card (when it will be legal) please share us your comments here.
I do think it's likely going to prove it is good enough to be a core card. I think it's the closest to getting Chain Lightning that we'll ever see in Modern, and being a sorcery doesn't bother me at all. I know that I'd have no hesitation about adding Chain Lightning, and this is doing a good Chain Lightning impression if you can cast it for R sufficiently often.
I will give it some play on cockatrice when I can. I'll try to specifically detail instances of using Skewer and instances when it was bad (times it uncastable, for instance), be and average cmc, cast turn, etc.
Wow coming back to this thread I knew there would be talk about the 2 new toys, but man is some of this is hilarious.
First off in NO way is Skewer remotely on the power level of Chain Lighting. Chain Lightning is ALWAYS 1 CMC under normal circumstances. It is more closer to Rift Bolt with Skewer getting an edge over it in some situations (mainly casting multiple burn spells in a turn without the delay associated with Rift Bolt). Rift Bolt gets the edge on turn 1 because you can't even cast Skewer on T1 (which you can at least suspend a Rift Bolt), and it also works better with Swiftspear coming off of suspend.
Skewer is however an auto include for any version of Modern burn.
I am on the verge of confidently stating that Rakdos is better than Boros. Rakdos has always been the faster deck but Boros was more of a resilient deck. Rakdos now only lacks enchantment hate which most Boros deck splash green for Destructive Revelry which should now be replaced by the new card Cinder Lash anyways. For the statements about Rakdos not having a sideboard that is absurd. Black brings Push to the table, but you can go Jund and play Assassin's Trophy to remove really the 2 most difficult things to deal with in Firewalker and Leyline with 1 card. This helps a ton when dealing with limited sideboard slots. Rain of Gore, Trophy, and Relic or Cage is really all you need.
Back to Cinder Lash for a moment. It is a touch slower than Revelry for sure, but overall it is a better card than Revelry for multiple reasons.
1. CS is better in multiples as you may not have additional targets for the other drawn copies of DR where as the static ability just stacks and thus will help close out the game.
2. CS gets utility even if they don't see their sb card.
3. CS's 1st ability is only for opponents and gets around Leyline since it doesn't target.
4. CS frees up having to hold up 2 Mana.
5. CS is proactive instead of reactive which is what burn prefers to do in general.
Where did I say it's on the same power level as Chain Lightning? For that matter, where did I say something that was inaccurate about what Skewer is and what I expect from it?
Are Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, and Opt at the same power level as Ponder and Preordain? Nope. Are they the closest analogues that Modern had access to? Yep. It's the same thing here. We have access to a new bolt variant that can situationally be cast for R. Is it literally Chain Lightning? Of course not. If it can easily be cast for R right of the time, it's accurate to say that it's doing a "good impression" of Chain Lightning. Is Modern ever getting Chain Lightning? No. Is this the closest we'll be getting? Probably.
I'm not so excited about the enchantment that others seem to be. I don't have a feeling for how relevant the static ability will be in cases where you need the DRev ability to make up for the fact that the DRev costs 3. It's possible that the static ability is flavor text in those situations and that the DRev ability is flavor text when the static ability isn't. That is to say, it might be most realistic to evaluate it as if it's a modal spell with two modes.
I do believe Rakdos Burn splashing green for the board is the "best" burn variant now, in a typically represented meta.
Shrine will NEVER be what burn wants. The only times that card is good is in matchups we're already favored in. I promise you.
I struggle to recall the last time a burn deck running black over white or even green like a mardu build did very well in a large-scale event. Losing helix and charm, while flex spots ultimately, does matter, meanwhile black just doesn't bring great sideboard options.
If rakdos will be the best, would Fireblade Artist not be a good inclusion? Its atleast likely to be a shock. And throwing guides and swiftspears to the face when there outclased?
I do believe Rakdos Burn splashing green for the board is the "best" burn variant now, in a typically represented meta.
Shrine will NEVER be what burn wants. The only times that card is good is in matchups we're already favored in. I promise you.
I struggle to recall the last time a burn deck running black over white or even green like a mardu build did very well in a large-scale event. Losing helix and charm, while flex spots ultimately, does matter, meanwhile black just doesn't bring great sideboard options.
Yeah, passable sideboard cards exist in Black. Stellar ones do not. Assassin's Trophy is expensive. I haven't wanted extra Skullcracks in ages, so I don't need Rain of Gore. Push doesn't kill anything at high CMC that Path can kill. RCharm is a weird catch-all card, but it's expensive for the effects it brings to the table. I suppose the argument one could make is that so much of RB burn is 1cmc that 2cmc sideboard cards are ok, but I'm not really buying that argument.
If rakdos will be the best, would Fireblade Artist not be a good inclusion? Its atleast likely to be a shock. And throwing guides and swiftspears to the face when there outclased?
"I think it's the closest to getting Chain Lightning that we'll ever see in Modern, and being a sorcery doesn't bother me at all. I know that I'd have no hesitation about adding Chain Lightning, and this is doing a good Chain Lightning impression if you can cast it for R sufficiently often."
You'ree hyping Skewer up to be closer to Chain Lighting rather than Rift Bolt which is just absurd. Even Rift Bolt can ALWAYS be suspended for R. Skewer is a situational Bolt that has a requirement to be R= 3 damage. That is not the case for Chain Lightning, but is for cards such as Rift Bolt, Shard Volley, or even something like Thunderous Wrath with each of those cards progressively worse in the situation needed to pull off the requirement.
Also since when is doing damage to your opponent flavor text for burn?
I do believe Rakdos Burn splashing green for the board is the "best" burn variant now, in a typically represented meta.
Shrine will NEVER be what burn wants. The only times that card is good is in matchups we're already favored in. I promise you.
I struggle to recall the last time a burn deck running black over white or even green like a mardu build did very well in a large-scale event. Losing helix and charm, while flex spots ultimately, does matter, meanwhile black just doesn't bring great sideboard options.
Large events do not make good decks, they simply highlight them. Other strong versions can easily go undiscovered, especially with a deck like burn that is so easy to netdeck and do decently with. I agree that you don't play black for the sideboard (aside from Trophy, which I personally do really like); you play it for the maindeck bolts. Part of them problem is that other people aren't as into Gonti's Machinations as I am. I'm not sure 4 extra bolts would be worth the color, but I do believe 8 extra bolts is. That brings the deck's speed down by almost a full turn.
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I think there's now two viable builds. Boros and Rakdos. Rakdos has to figure out the sideboard but with getting the new bolt, it offers a replacement for helix and charm now so I will begin testing a list. Also Naya if you don't care about starting on 14 most games.
I do think it's likely going to prove it is good enough to be a core card. I think it's the closest to getting Chain Lightning that we'll ever see in Modern, and being a sorcery doesn't bother me at all. I know that I'd have no hesitation about adding Chain Lightning, and this is doing a good Chain Lightning impression if you can cast it for R sufficiently often.
I will give it some play on cockatrice when I can. I'll try to specifically detail instances of using Skewer and instances when it was bad (times it uncastable, for instance), be and average cmc, cast turn, etc.
I agree a lot with that. In my meta I will do 4 Helix and 0 Skullcrack main.
I don't know if it's worth to splash green, even with that new enchantment.
B00NTY
Also heres another question... do you guys feel its better to just run S. Blood in sb or could Satyr be better? Both have pros and cons. If satyr lives it can be done more than once but searing blood only deals 2 and creatues in modern dont stay small for very long but it hits players which is part of our game plan...
As far as Satyr, I like Blood and Path as my creature answers, but I don't have any experience playing Satyr. I feel like most situations only require you to buy time long enough to win. I think Satyr also requires matchups with almost no removal, so I guess Affinity and Humans counts?
Which is funny, because Shock is in Standard. (Ba-dum tsss)
Wow coming back to this thread I knew there would be talk about the 2 new toys, but man is some of this is hilarious.
First off in NO way is Skewer remotely on the power level of Chain Lighting. Chain Lightning is ALWAYS 1 CMC under normal circumstances. It is more closer to Rift Bolt with Skewer getting an edge over it in some situations (mainly casting multiple burn spells in a turn without the delay associated with Rift Bolt). Rift Bolt gets the edge on turn 1 because you can't even cast Skewer on T1 (which you can at least suspend a Rift Bolt), and it also works better with Swiftspear coming off of suspend.
Skewer is however an auto include for any version of Modern burn.
I am on the verge of confidently stating that Rakdos is better than Boros. Rakdos has always been the faster deck but Boros was more of a resilient deck. Rakdos now only lacks enchantment hate which most Boros deck splash green for Destructive Revelry which should now be replaced by the new card Cinder Lash anyways. For the statements about Rakdos not having a sideboard that is absurd. Black brings Push to the table, but you can go Jund and play Assassin's Trophy to remove really the 2 most difficult things to deal with in Firewalker and Leyline with 1 card. This helps a ton when dealing with limited sideboard slots. Rain of Gore, Trophy, and Relic or Cage is really all you need.
Back to Cinder Lash for a moment. It is a touch slower than Revelry for sure, but overall it is a better card than Revelry for multiple reasons.
1. CS is better in multiples as you may not have additional targets for the other drawn copies of DR where as the static ability just stacks and thus will help close out the game.
2. CS gets utility even if they don't see their sb card.
3. CS's 1st ability is only for opponents and gets around Leyline since it doesn't target.
4. CS frees up having to hold up 2 Mana.
5. CS is proactive instead of reactive which is what burn prefers to do in general.
Shrine will NEVER be what burn wants. The only times that card is good is in matchups we're already favored in. I promise you.
Where did I say it's on the same power level as Chain Lightning? For that matter, where did I say something that was inaccurate about what Skewer is and what I expect from it?
Are Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, and Opt at the same power level as Ponder and Preordain? Nope. Are they the closest analogues that Modern had access to? Yep. It's the same thing here. We have access to a new bolt variant that can situationally be cast for R. Is it literally Chain Lightning? Of course not. If it can easily be cast for R right of the time, it's accurate to say that it's doing a "good impression" of Chain Lightning. Is Modern ever getting Chain Lightning? No. Is this the closest we'll be getting? Probably.
I'm not so excited about the enchantment that others seem to be. I don't have a feeling for how relevant the static ability will be in cases where you need the DRev ability to make up for the fact that the DRev costs 3. It's possible that the static ability is flavor text in those situations and that the DRev ability is flavor text when the static ability isn't. That is to say, it might be most realistic to evaluate it as if it's a modal spell with two modes.
I struggle to recall the last time a burn deck running black over white or even green like a mardu build did very well in a large-scale event. Losing helix and charm, while flex spots ultimately, does matter, meanwhile black just doesn't bring great sideboard options.
Yeah, passable sideboard cards exist in Black. Stellar ones do not. Assassin's Trophy is expensive. I haven't wanted extra Skullcracks in ages, so I don't need Rain of Gore. Push doesn't kill anything at high CMC that Path can kill. RCharm is a weird catch-all card, but it's expensive for the effects it brings to the table. I suppose the argument one could make is that so much of RB burn is 1cmc that 2cmc sideboard cards are ok, but I'm not really buying that argument.
You'ree hyping Skewer up to be closer to Chain Lighting rather than Rift Bolt which is just absurd. Even Rift Bolt can ALWAYS be suspended for R. Skewer is a situational Bolt that has a requirement to be R= 3 damage. That is not the case for Chain Lightning, but is for cards such as Rift Bolt, Shard Volley, or even something like Thunderous Wrath with each of those cards progressively worse in the situation needed to pull off the requirement.
Also since when is doing damage to your opponent flavor text for burn?
Large events do not make good decks, they simply highlight them. Other strong versions can easily go undiscovered, especially with a deck like burn that is so easy to netdeck and do decently with. I agree that you don't play black for the sideboard (aside from Trophy, which I personally do really like); you play it for the maindeck bolts. Part of them problem is that other people aren't as into Gonti's Machinations as I am. I'm not sure 4 extra bolts would be worth the color, but I do believe 8 extra bolts is. That brings the deck's speed down by almost a full turn.