So if we were going to build Jund Burn to gain access to Assassin's Trophy in our SB, what would the maindeck look like? I threw together a first draft. Thoughts?
It was suggested by Max WB that we have a cycle of matchup spotlight periods that in effect crowd sourced detailed information about a particular matchup. I think a two week timescale would be a reasonable turn around time for this. For the first iteration, we'll do Humans because it was very recently asked about. The next one will be chosen via a poll that will run over the next few weeks (September 29). The poll will also always have a link to the current spotlight post.
There's also this idea I had that could possibly help all Burn players. Basically every week on the primer we have a matchup spotlight (for example, Burn vs Humans). We gather as many resources as we can to find out how to best beat the deck. Someone will go to their primer and ask some questions, while the rest of us give feedback on how matches went, what lines worked, which lines didn't, which cards to play around, and how to sideboard. By the end of the week, we all have a great understanding of how to play against the deck, and this valuable information is put into the matchup guide on the first page of the primer.
These would be the questions we have to answer:
-What cards to look for in the mulligan stage
-Which creatures need to be killed vs which ones can be ignored
-When to drop Eidolon of the Great Revel (many people have a lot of trouble with this one).
-Which Burn spells to lead with (saving Skullcrack against lifegain vs saving Lightning Helix to kill a creature)
-Which cards to play around (playing around everything is just unrealistic)
-Tricky plays/interactions most people don't know about
-Sideboarding guide
By taking this approach rather than what we've been doing, we can focus everyone's skills and knowledge to have a more complete understanding of the matchup. When we feel like the information is outdated, we revisit the matchup.
Every week (or 2 weeks), there could be a vote as to which deck we want to learn how to counter.
I'll volunteer to go to other primers and ask questions as well as dig up information by searching threads. I'll also try to find some time to grind some games online. If others could report on matches, lines, etc. that would help a lot.
I'll gather it all and update that primer section at the end.
Quick report as I made top 8 at a pptq Saturday going 4-0-1 by ID'ing in the finals to secure the #2 seed. I almost fail to make it in time. For some reason my GPS listed a different street, which led to me wandering around for a good ten minutes. Fortunately, this happened to another group (the wonder of seeing grown men with backpacks and bags wandering around, we each correctly assumed the other was here for magic) and we eventually got a proper location. There was about 30 people. Good, my brain fries after five rounds usually.
R1 vs Bant Spirits 2-1 W
Hadn't played against it before. Game one he opened with double mausoleum wanderer which ended up eating spells. That gave him the time needed to reach a critical mass. Game two I steamrolled and game three a late eidolon wrapped things up. Fortunately he never played a drogskol captain through the match.
R2 vs Jeskai Ascendancy 2-1 W
He was manascrewed game one and scooped a couple turns after I bolted a turn 1 BoP and he had no other land drop. However, I didn't see anything else to figure out what exactly I was up against, so I only boarded in a couple of searing blood to handle mana dorks. Game 2 I kept a slower hand and lost to the combo. He looted away a leyline of sanctity, though, so I took note of that going into the last game (was gonna bring in DRevs anyways to deal with ascendancy). Game 3 kept a two land hand with double swiftspear and guide and had to deal with a turn zero leyline. Topdecked a second guide and bolted myself a couple times for prowess triggers to win on turn 4.
R3 vs Humans 2-1 W
First game opened with goblin guide which kept giving him lands, which then ended up with him drawing more lands on the following turns. It was an easy win. Game 2 he gets a couple thalia's lieutenants out and I get my ass kicked. Game 3 he responds to my eidolon with an auriok champion, which I answer with two more eidolons. He's basically locked out of the game as I start swinging in to wrap things up. Side note, this was the last game going in the round as he played pretty slowly. A small crowd formed and people were just wincing at the board state. I enjoyed it. I have a strong sense of schaudenfreude.
R4 vs UR Wizards 2-1 W
I'm the third seed at this point and get paired down to a 2-0-1 player who has to win to get in after I offer an ID. I annihilated him in games 1 and 3, while I mulled to 6 game 2 and kept a zero lander with all one drops except a searing blaze. It did not work out.
R5 ID
I'm locked in #2 seed, which makes me excited when I find out the store is paying out cash for top 10. I'm feeling great. Well actually, nobody was really sure if it was cash or not. That led to a hilarious series of conversations until I finally manned up to say "**** it I'm finding out."
Top 8 broke down like this:
1st Blue Moon
2nd Burn (yay!)
3rd Mardu Pyromancer
4th Jeskai Control
5th Grixis Breach
7th Humans
8th Tron
Quarterfinals vs Jund 2-1 L
Game one was over quick. Game two I got him down to 3 but topdecked two straight lands and a rest in peace (which did give me the extra turn to draw another land). Game three I punted. Same situation, got him to 3 while I was at 8. I topdeck a swiftspear and play it, attack, hoping this stops his goyf from swinging and buys me time. I forgot that raging ravine's counter trigger is pre-damage. I would have won with a rift bolt next turn. That being said, he may have had a removal spell. I didn't ask. Actually he was part of the group that also got lost, so the four of us basically bs'ed for a while. Honestly that was the best part of this tournament - it was high level play but a very friendly atmosphere.
Walked away with $100, which is totally fine by me. I had been really sour on burn after several consecutive 0-2 drop outings, and was considering skipping this event entirely. I still want to change my sb a bit. I added 2 kor firewalker after seeing burn on a bit of a resurgence locally, but I was the only person on the deck. I'm probably going to play something like this going forward:
4 DRev
2 Searing Blood
3 Path
2 Relic
1 RIP (gotta mixup the gy hate for KCI)
2 Exquisite Firecraft
1 ???
That last spot is open. I have been very disappointed in deflecting palm. Firewalker...I mean there's one store with more burn where it would make sense to do it just those days. Ensnaring Bridge may get the nod if I can find one cheap enough. I'm open to ideas.
I might recommend a third Relic. With one shot graveyard hate, I feel like it becomes better to run 4 over 3 since drawing multiples can still be useful and it cantrips, and it ups your chance to see a piece early game vs Dredge or Hollow decks.
So a little bit weaker Browbeat, but at instant speed. Interesting! Note that it doesn't get around a Leyline like Browbeat does though.
I run 2 Bedlam Reveler in my mainboard as late-game gas and have been pretty happy with them thus far, but realize it might not be where most burn pilots wanna be.
The instant speed and jumpstart might just make the difference for Risk Factor. But in the end it's dancing a really fine line between making it into the deck.
While I don't think it'll be improving my deck during testing, it'll be nice to just have more fun cards in an otherwise fairly linear deck.
You know, I don't hate that card. I'm not sure it's good enough, but I'm not instantly positive it isn't. The big thing for me is the 3CMC, and I already play 3 Volleys so that's hard for me. If it is worth playing, I'm pretty sure 2 is the right number.
I think it's much better than Browbeat because it's instant speed and you can do it twice (especially if you whiff on the draws the first time), but I don't think it's playable.
I think the jump-start effect from Risk Factor makes it an excellent sideboard card for control matchups. I would play 2-3 copies in the sideboard myself, seeing as it is basically a 3-mana 4 damage spell with flashback, since our opponent will never let us draw 3. I understand that jump-start is not the same as flashback, but given that we're a deck that's happy to discard excess lands, not to mention that we surely will draw excess lands in long games, the discard effect is nothing to worry about. Obviously this card cannot be played in fast matchups though.
I think the jump-start effect from Risk Factor makes it an excellent sideboard card for control matchups. I would play 2-3 copies in the sideboard myself, seeing as it is basically a 3-mana 4 damage spell with flashback, since our opponent will never let us draw 3. I understand that jump-start is not the same as flashback, but given that we're a deck that's happy to discard excess lands, not to mention that we surely will draw excess lands in long games, the discard effect is nothing to worry about. Obviously this card cannot be played in fast matchups though.
100% Max. This is probably the most playable punisher card for burn even surpassing vexing devil. Instant speed and basically retrace makes this card really strong. I believe it is worth testing out. There will be people who always, no matter what the conditions are, hate on punisher cards. I know people are worried about the 3 cmc but we have played 3 cmc spells in the past and some still do in the board ie Ensnaring Bridge. All I am saying is I am gonna test it and others should too before immediately writing it off.
I agree, I think it's worth testing. I'm finding it uniquely hard to evaluate based on theory. 8 potential damage over two turns is no joke, and neither is 6 new cards (call it 12 damage if we assume two bolts and a land each cast?), and neither is 4 damage and 3 cards (10 damage total on average with the same assumptions).
I'm also thinking that you don't want to see this card early, because it costs 3 and can clog hands in multiples, but when you draw it late, your opponent might be low enough that any burn spell would win you the game, causing you to use potentially all your mana to draw cards and give your opponent another turn instead of just winning on the spot.
I agree, I think it's worth testing. I'm finding it uniquely hard to evaluate based on theory. 8 potential damage over two turns is no joke, and neither is 6 new cards (call it 12 damage if we assume two bolts and a land each cast?), and neither is 4 damage and 3 cards (10 damage total on average with the same assumptions).
I'm also thinking that you don't want to see this card early, because it costs 3 and can clog hands in multiples, but when you draw it late, your opponent might be low enough that any burn spell would win you the game, causing you to use potentially all your mana to draw cards and give your opponent another turn instead of just winning on the spot.
If you are casting it at the end of their turn they aren’t getting another turn especially if they are at 4 life. Even at 7 life it is still strong because if they take 4 then they need to hope you don’t top deck a bolt after.
I agree, I think it's worth testing. I'm finding it uniquely hard to evaluate based on theory. 8 potential damage over two turns is no joke, and neither is 6 new cards (call it 12 damage if we assume two bolts and a land each cast?), and neither is 4 damage and 3 cards (10 damage total on average with the same assumptions).
I'm also thinking that you don't want to see this card early, because it costs 3 and can clog hands in multiples, but when you draw it late, your opponent might be low enough that any burn spell would win you the game, causing you to use potentially all your mana to draw cards and give your opponent another turn instead of just winning on the spot.
If you are casting it at the end of their turn they aren’t getting another turn especially if they are at 4 life. Even at 7 life it is still strong because if they take 4 then they need to hope you don’t top deck a bolt after.
That's assuming you aren't dead on board when you draw it. Burn trades interaction for speed, and opponents build up a board as a result. If your opponent is at 3 and you're staring down lethal, you don't want this card to be your topdeck.
That's true for other cards we run, too, like Goblin Guide and Swiftspear. The difference is we do want to see them early because they have so much impact given a bit of time investment that it's worth the risk of seeing them later. That's just not true here. So we don't want it early, but it also seems sort of awkward late due to the fundamental linear nature of Burn? Like I said, it's hard for me to evaluate it based on theory alone.
I want efficiency in burn spells. There's a reason that Vexing Devil tends to vanish at GPs, SCG tournaments, and modern challenges. Your opponent will pick the option that lets them win. If neither option is good, you were likely to win anyways.
Doesn't help Burn Decks have a low mana curve...I mean sheesh if they spend three to cast this what are they even going to do with most cards that turn? Probably not much.
I want efficiency in burn spells. There's a reason that Vexing Devil tends to vanish at GPs, SCG tournaments, and modern challenges. Your opponent will pick the option that lets them win. If neither option is good, you were likely to win anyways.
I think the word you meant to use is consistent because 1 cmc for either 4 damage lava spike or a 4/3 creature is incredibly efficient. Unfortunately to hamper your argument on consistency, burn runs typically a playset Searing Blaze which can be at times wildly inconsistent. You need your opponent to have a creature and also need to have a land enter that turn, but it sees play because it is very powerful and we run fetches to minimize the inconsistency. I could be speaking for myself, but there have been times when the opponent has no creatures in play or I don’t have a fetch land and Searing Blaze completely underperforms. I am not saying we should stop playing Searing Blaze, nor am I saying Vexing Devil is playable in modern. I stated that the new card was indeed better than it in modern and worth testing.
Searing Blaze runs roughshod over enough matchups that it earns a spot even though it is high variance. Everyone has been in the "need 3 damage, no targets for blaze" situation. Everyone has been in the "blaze your bird" situation, too. There are very few matchups where Vexing Devil just reads "R: Lava Spike for 4" due to complete lack of removal (if there were a lot, we would play it in a heartbeat), and that is in stark contrast to situations where Blaze shines even though Blaze can have bad moments.
I think the new Browbeat is better than Browbeat, but I don't think it's good enough. If I'm going to dump 3 mana on a spell, I'd rather just dump that mana on Exquisite Firecraft and see what happens on my next draw step if I need more spells. Burn benefits from being redundant, and I think that straight draw without damage directly attached to it is not good enough for the deck especially at 3CMC.
Searing Blaze runs roughshod over enough matchups that it earns a spot even though it is high variance. Everyone has been in the "need 3 damage, no targets for blaze" situation. Everyone has been in the "blaze your bird" situation, too. There are very few matchups where Vexing Devil just reads "R: Lava Spike for 4" due to complete lack of removal (if there were a lot, we would play it in a heartbeat), and that is in stark contrast to situations where Blaze shines even though Blaze can have bad moments.
I think the new Browbeat is better than Browbeat, but I don't think it's good enough. If I'm going to dump 3 mana on a spell, I'd rather just dump that mana on Exquisite Firecraft and see what happens on my next draw step if I need more spells. Burn benefits from being redundant, and I think that straight draw without damage directly attached to it is not good enough for the deck especially at 3CMC.
Elcon I never advocated for removing Searing Blaze nor advocated for adding Vexing Devil just pointing out there is high variance in Searing Blaze yet we still play it because it is a very powerful card in spite of that.
Regarding your second part about spending 3 mana and drawing cards and not dealing damage, you have forgot about when burn splashed blue to play Treasure Cruise.
Also can you point out a situation where it is better having firecraft over risk factor with your opponent at 7, with only 1 of the said cards in hand and access to 3 mana, outside of the opponent having 2 counterspells or drawing an additional firecraft (probability extremely low)?
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4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells: 27
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Bump In the Night
1 Atarka's Command
1 Shard Volley
2 Gonti's Machination
4 Searing Blaze
3 Skullcrack
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
9 red fetches
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
It was suggested by Max WB that we have a cycle of matchup spotlight periods that in effect crowd sourced detailed information about a particular matchup. I think a two week timescale would be a reasonable turn around time for this. For the first iteration, we'll do Humans because it was very recently asked about. The next one will be chosen via a poll that will run over the next few weeks (September 29). The poll will also always have a link to the current spotlight post.
I'll volunteer to go to other primers and ask questions as well as dig up information by searching threads. I'll also try to find some time to grind some games online. If others could report on matches, lines, etc. that would help a lot.
I'll gather it all and update that primer section at the end.
R1 vs Bant Spirits 2-1 W
Hadn't played against it before. Game one he opened with double mausoleum wanderer which ended up eating spells. That gave him the time needed to reach a critical mass. Game two I steamrolled and game three a late eidolon wrapped things up. Fortunately he never played a drogskol captain through the match.
R2 vs Jeskai Ascendancy 2-1 W
He was manascrewed game one and scooped a couple turns after I bolted a turn 1 BoP and he had no other land drop. However, I didn't see anything else to figure out what exactly I was up against, so I only boarded in a couple of searing blood to handle mana dorks. Game 2 I kept a slower hand and lost to the combo. He looted away a leyline of sanctity, though, so I took note of that going into the last game (was gonna bring in DRevs anyways to deal with ascendancy). Game 3 kept a two land hand with double swiftspear and guide and had to deal with a turn zero leyline. Topdecked a second guide and bolted myself a couple times for prowess triggers to win on turn 4.
R3 vs Humans 2-1 W
First game opened with goblin guide which kept giving him lands, which then ended up with him drawing more lands on the following turns. It was an easy win. Game 2 he gets a couple thalia's lieutenants out and I get my ass kicked. Game 3 he responds to my eidolon with an auriok champion, which I answer with two more eidolons. He's basically locked out of the game as I start swinging in to wrap things up. Side note, this was the last game going in the round as he played pretty slowly. A small crowd formed and people were just wincing at the board state. I enjoyed it. I have a strong sense of schaudenfreude.
R4 vs UR Wizards 2-1 W
I'm the third seed at this point and get paired down to a 2-0-1 player who has to win to get in after I offer an ID. I annihilated him in games 1 and 3, while I mulled to 6 game 2 and kept a zero lander with all one drops except a searing blaze. It did not work out.
R5 ID
I'm locked in #2 seed, which makes me excited when I find out the store is paying out cash for top 10. I'm feeling great. Well actually, nobody was really sure if it was cash or not. That led to a hilarious series of conversations until I finally manned up to say "**** it I'm finding out."
Top 8 broke down like this:
1st Blue Moon
2nd Burn (yay!)
3rd Mardu Pyromancer
4th Jeskai Control
5th Grixis Breach
7th Humans
8th Tron
Quarterfinals vs Jund 2-1 L
Game one was over quick. Game two I got him down to 3 but topdecked two straight lands and a rest in peace (which did give me the extra turn to draw another land). Game three I punted. Same situation, got him to 3 while I was at 8. I topdeck a swiftspear and play it, attack, hoping this stops his goyf from swinging and buys me time. I forgot that raging ravine's counter trigger is pre-damage. I would have won with a rift bolt next turn. That being said, he may have had a removal spell. I didn't ask. Actually he was part of the group that also got lost, so the four of us basically bs'ed for a while. Honestly that was the best part of this tournament - it was high level play but a very friendly atmosphere.
Walked away with $100, which is totally fine by me. I had been really sour on burn after several consecutive 0-2 drop outings, and was considering skipping this event entirely. I still want to change my sb a bit. I added 2 kor firewalker after seeing burn on a bit of a resurgence locally, but I was the only person on the deck. I'm probably going to play something like this going forward:
4 DRev
2 Searing Blood
3 Path
2 Relic
1 RIP (gotta mixup the gy hate for KCI)
2 Exquisite Firecraft
1 ???
That last spot is open. I have been very disappointed in deflecting palm. Firewalker...I mean there's one store with more burn where it would make sense to do it just those days. Ensnaring Bridge may get the nod if I can find one cheap enough. I'm open to ideas.
EDIT: for reference
Risk Factor 2R
Instant (Rare)
Target opponent may have Risk Factor dead 4 damage to them. If that player doesn't, you draw three cards.
Jump-start
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
I run 2 Bedlam Reveler in my mainboard as late-game gas and have been pretty happy with them thus far, but realize it might not be where most burn pilots wanna be.
While I don't think it'll be improving my deck during testing, it'll be nice to just have more fun cards in an otherwise fairly linear deck.
100% Max. This is probably the most playable punisher card for burn even surpassing vexing devil. Instant speed and basically retrace makes this card really strong. I believe it is worth testing out. There will be people who always, no matter what the conditions are, hate on punisher cards. I know people are worried about the 3 cmc but we have played 3 cmc spells in the past and some still do in the board ie Ensnaring Bridge. All I am saying is I am gonna test it and others should too before immediately writing it off.
I'm also thinking that you don't want to see this card early, because it costs 3 and can clog hands in multiples, but when you draw it late, your opponent might be low enough that any burn spell would win you the game, causing you to use potentially all your mana to draw cards and give your opponent another turn instead of just winning on the spot.
If you are casting it at the end of their turn they aren’t getting another turn especially if they are at 4 life. Even at 7 life it is still strong because if they take 4 then they need to hope you don’t top deck a bolt after.
That's assuming you aren't dead on board when you draw it. Burn trades interaction for speed, and opponents build up a board as a result. If your opponent is at 3 and you're staring down lethal, you don't want this card to be your topdeck.
That's true for other cards we run, too, like Goblin Guide and Swiftspear. The difference is we do want to see them early because they have so much impact given a bit of time investment that it's worth the risk of seeing them later. That's just not true here. So we don't want it early, but it also seems sort of awkward late due to the fundamental linear nature of Burn? Like I said, it's hard for me to evaluate it based on theory alone.
I think the word you meant to use is consistent because 1 cmc for either 4 damage lava spike or a 4/3 creature is incredibly efficient. Unfortunately to hamper your argument on consistency, burn runs typically a playset Searing Blaze which can be at times wildly inconsistent. You need your opponent to have a creature and also need to have a land enter that turn, but it sees play because it is very powerful and we run fetches to minimize the inconsistency. I could be speaking for myself, but there have been times when the opponent has no creatures in play or I don’t have a fetch land and Searing Blaze completely underperforms. I am not saying we should stop playing Searing Blaze, nor am I saying Vexing Devil is playable in modern. I stated that the new card was indeed better than it in modern and worth testing.
I think the new Browbeat is better than Browbeat, but I don't think it's good enough. If I'm going to dump 3 mana on a spell, I'd rather just dump that mana on Exquisite Firecraft and see what happens on my next draw step if I need more spells. Burn benefits from being redundant, and I think that straight draw without damage directly attached to it is not good enough for the deck especially at 3CMC.
Elcon I never advocated for removing Searing Blaze nor advocated for adding Vexing Devil just pointing out there is high variance in Searing Blaze yet we still play it because it is a very powerful card in spite of that.
Regarding your second part about spending 3 mana and drawing cards and not dealing damage, you have forgot about when burn splashed blue to play Treasure Cruise.
Also can you point out a situation where it is better having firecraft over risk factor with your opponent at 7, with only 1 of the said cards in hand and access to 3 mana, outside of the opponent having 2 counterspells or drawing an additional firecraft (probability extremely low)?