How do we feel about Wilderness Reclamation it could be more of potential replacement for Vial or just an include especially in the builds that ramp instead of vial.
How do we feel about Wilderness Reclamation it could be more of potential replacement for Vial or just an include especially in the builds that ramp instead of vial.
Interesting comments on Incubation. I'll test it, but those numbers aren't what I'd hoped for. I will say that it's unlikely that I would ever be casting the Incubation side of the spell early unless I'm playing something non-interactive so that might change the numbers a bit? Maybe we use our serum visions to keep creatures in our deck, and just focus on removal and counter magic early, and then when we are ready to turn the corner we can cast Incubation, or use the removal side.
Having a hard answer to either DS, Gurmag or Wurmcoil Engines - and now Drakes - could be a massive boon. On the flip side, maybe going more on the vapor snag plan is the correct choice.
What about Thrash//Threat? Fight cards are risky, but honestly I'd prefer it to Electrolize which is borderline bad right now.
I'm still not sure what the best SB approach is to Tron. In practice I've liked Fulminator Mage because you can buy it back, but its kind of slow. I was thinking again of an old favorite, Crumble to Dust. That thing is fantastic, but again probably to slow? Do you guys board in land hate vs. Cavern of Souls? If so, what do you typically cut? Typically were talking Humans or Spirits so that means were cutting Remand? Clique? Cryptic? If we do that then we defeat the purpose of adding in land hate. I've typically just boarded out the remands (unless I want to deal with CC) and let them resolve their creatures.
Someone was mentioning that red has the better SB options right now. I'm not sure that's the case. Anger is better than Damnation, but I see a lot of rock decks running Languish, which is much better than Anger vs. Spirits, but obviously much worse vs. something like Dredge.
I've been fiddling around with Sultai Command because I like its GY hate - which in my view is the most important tool you can have right now. Temur just lacks on the GY hate unless you have access to some number of Surgical Extraction. Speaking of which, I think both versions need to be playing 2-3 md oozes right now.
Also, what are people's thoughts on MB Huntmaster of the Fells vs. SB? I love that card, and had been going lighter on the combo, and instead running 2 Cryptic and 2 MB Huntmaster, with only two MB Witness. That might not be the best configuration although I managed a 5-0 in competitive with it:)
I run 3 MB Cryptics, 2 MB Eternal Witness and 1 MB Huntmaster--with 2 Huntmaster in the SB. But I also run traverse package with Kiki and Bounding Krasis. Decklist in spoilers. I've had a lot of success with MB Huntmasters.
I don't think Growth Spiral is what our deck is looking for. Yes being able to turn 3 Cryptic is nice, but the card doesn't interact with our opponent nor does it apply pressure or creates CA. We already run Vials for a tempo boost.
Incubation//Incongruity looked way more promising at first sight but then I ran the numbers through a hypergeometric calculator and to consistently hit with Incubation we would need to up our creature count quite a bit. Here's the numbers calculated for at least one creature in the top 4 cards of a 60 card deck (which is not a 100% realistic, but a solid approximation):
Not being able to hit lands really hurts this one because not hitting a creature is just aweful here.
I do think there is some room to brew with this and come up with a more creature heavy version of Eternal Command that uses I//I while also making a better use of Vial, I just haven't found the right creatures to go with yet. Maybe a 1x Kiki+ 4x Bounding Krasis + 2x Architects of Will + 2-3x Traverse the Ulvenwald. Seems pretty janky and the mana is aweful but Krasis into Cryptic into Kiki could be just enough to hold off some of these uninteractive aggressive decks like Dredge or Hollow One. I don't know.
Boy oh boy do I have a list for you. This is what I jammed at a small modern gameday today. Went 3-1, and it was entirely brewed for fun/there's definitely room for tweaks.
It felt really solid to have creatures + aether vial, and the deck had legs against some of the more common matchups (Storm & UW specifically). My only loss was to the new Primespeaker/pod deck (I would have had g1 if I knew what they were on before they went off, had 2 Meddling Mage in hand that I was holding for a proper cue, g2 I just got rolled by weird draws and a misplay early CoCo). Never got the hard lock down in this deck, but Vial + Eidolon of Rhetoric over performed. Eternal Witness + Unified Will also felt really good post board against control/combo.
There might be a case for ditching CoCo for Jace + some spells MB, but overall the creature package felt really good. Ran 4-ofs for most of the utility creatures to start and feel it out but that most likely isn't right. I also missed some of the power that Tarmogoyf brought to the table and it felt like closing out games was a big grind, but in this list, he doesn't feel like the right threat either. My list for next week will probably be cutting the 4th cryptic/witness/deputy for 3 Tireless Tracker. Gives card advantage and a growing threat that works through the hard lock.
I'm at a point now where I'm pretty convinced the utility creatures that we get from running white/bant are better than what we get from other options.
I don't have any experience to back this up, its just a hunch.
Meddling mage, deputy of detentions, spell queller, reflector mage are the ones that stick out to me the most but also:
Knight of the reliquary, Knight of autumn, kataki war's wage, selfless spirit, eidolon of rhetoric, mirran crusader
The hits are significant. Not all of those cards are super relevant all the time but I see an angle here for the deck to pivot around these powerful hatebear-style creatures, while still having the combo as a backup for the long game and against opposing creature strategies.
Any thoughts?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I tested a Bant version way back when Spell Queller got printed (not an all in creature version as above, more of "switch R for W and take a look"). Spell Queller felt really good, also the access to many (annoying) SB cards helped a lot. The Synergies which Resto Angel offered was also something quite remarkable (flash beater which can buy back cards via Witness or be annoying via Reflector Mage). However, at the end of the day I always felt, that I didn't really want the Cryptic loop in that deck, I would rather cut the 4 Cryptics to play more stuff than try to set-up a rather clunky loop (the creature package interacted better with the opponent than a 4 mana Cryptic).
I personally believe, that the best CoCo deck atm should be a straight Bant version, no need to dip into the Spirits department for medicore beats (you can and still are playing Queller and co) when you have stuff like Knight of the Relinquary.
An Bant "Taxes" style of deck could also work quite well (cause those three colours have a lot of annoying creatures), but it is simply not in my ball park, so I won't invest any time into it :/
Besides this, I have been playing a lot of BUG Wilderness Teachings in the past few week(s) and of course noticed several things (also regarding RUG Eternal Command):
- Play 4 Growth Spiral. The mana advantage you are getting is exactly what that deck wants. You usually either got it by using Vial, but more often than not you wanted more "ramp" without playing things like Bird or Utopia Sprawl.
- I would consider playing 1 or 2 Wilderness Reclamation in this deck, it is basically a super vial, since it allows you to do main phase stuff AND than do instant stuff. It is especially interesting with things like Search (which looks better in this deck than in BUG Teachings) or non Vial Draws. It also allows (along side of Growth Spiral) to play different CA spells. Note: Not so sure, if needed though.
- Chemister's Insight is the card you want to play if you want to get rid of excessive Vials (instead of Thirst). Sure, somewhat clunky, but it does it's job quite well.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I've been following the development of the Wilderness Reclamation deck. I play WR on Arena and the card opens ups some absurd lines. I haven't quite bought into Teachings as the go to route for the deck though.
I do think it could change the makeup of EC by replacing Vial. You'll lose the instant speed Witness lines, but it opens a lot more doors. I haven't been able to build a list I like yet though.
I am running my Sultai EC list this weekend at GP Bilbao. Going with the same 60, though I may ditch Collective Brutality for another card. The sideboard is majorly changed from my last GP. Going to consolidate the counters into 2 Countersqualls. Ditch all but flip Garruk for walkers. Add in Languish as a sweeper. And run three Surgical Extractions to shore up against the combo decks that rely on a few cards from the grave. I've been toying with a 1 of Damping Sphere. Not sure it's where I want to be.
So what this deck needs is some number of eternal witnesses that you draw naturally and one Familiar's Ruse that you can tutor for to soft lock some one? Doing the ernal command lock. Wilderness Reclamation takes the form of aether vial.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I'm coming back to eternal command but I'm starting my 75 with a playset of dark confidant
Weird? I'm not so sure. The one thing that lets me down when I play this deck is a relative lack of card advantage or velocity. Mana, truth be told can be an issue at times but that's nothing unusual for modern.
I'll probably run three Cryptics and three scavenging ooze, set of goyf, plus a bunch of the usual suspects. Fatal push is straightforward, one abrupt decay, two assassin's trophy. After that I'll tweak, with an aim to keep the mana curve as low as possible.
I tried this a couple of years ago and it became my default list for quite some time. I ran four colours (tiny red splash for bolt in the main and ancient grudge in the side) so this brings me to another idea.
Has anyone tried running death's shadow in this deck? I mean if we're taking a bunch of damage from our lands, maybe it's a possibility? We could sub our counterspells for discard (save for the important Cryptic) and it'd make the deck more of a combo midrange deck?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
GP Stockholm I finished at a dismal 0-3-4. Yes, 4 draws. My flight was pushed back and I didn't get to bed until after 0200. It was a long day. I drew against Tron. That doesn't excuse the 2-7 side event record though.
GP Bilbao went much better. I dropped in the first round of the two Last Chance Qualifiers I entered on Friday. I really should have just entered the Double Up.
My opponent was kind enough to remind me Bogles is a deck prompting me to eventually put Explosives into the board. 0-2
Game 1:
He gets off to a strong start and I offer little in the way of interaction.
Board in: Creatures, Languish, and Spreading Seas
Board out: Remands, 1x Cryptic, Push
Game 2:
Slightly better go of it as I was able to keep the enchantment count fairly low, but then a Griffin's Boon allowed him to go over my chump blocking mages for the win.
Second LCT, GDS: 1-2
Game 1:
It was easy to identify my role early on as he starts doing damage to himself at an incredible rate. I don't let him keep anything on the board for long and he never hits me, though I go down to 11 to keep up with the threats he's putting down. Eventually I take two swings and take him out.
Board in: Scooze, Garruk, Countersquall
Board out: 2x Remand, 1x Cryptic
Game 2:
Back in forth game. I keep him off Fulminator Mage and Liliana for a couple of turns. He keeps me from sticking any threat. Eventually he lands one more punch than I do.
Game 3:
He does the thing where he takes his life down low and Stubbornly Denies my removal to take me out.
Nothing like spending 30 Euro on two matches to remind yourself you are here to have fun. Bogles was awful, but I felt I had game against GDS. I wasn't expecting to go day 2 in the GP, and this helped manage those expectations.
GP Bilbao:
Round 1: Bogles
Game 1:
Opponent opens up with land->Bogle, and I'm thanking my opponent from the first LCT for reminding me of how brutal this matchup is. He dispatches me quickly as I had kept a hand of targeted removal and Remands.
Board in: Explosives, Languish, Spreading Seas
Out: Remands and Push
Game 2:
Opponent has a familiar opening after I lay out a Vial. I kept a hand with Seas in it and immediately play it turn two. Sure enough the opponent didn't have a second land. He gets in once with his unenchanted Bogle, and tries again once more before I Vial in a Goyf to take it out. Opponent scoops it up from there.
Game 3:
He starts strong again and this time he didn't miss his land drops. I Pierce a Rancor but he follows it up with more. By turn 3 I'm facing down Coronet with little I can do. He runs away with it thanks to an Umbra protecting his creature. 0-1
Round 2: Grixis Phoenix
Game 1:
Some back and forth play. I have timely removal for his bird friends but eventually run out of gas.
Board: Out goes one each of the decks namesakes and 2x Remand to make way for Surgical and Scooze
Game 2:
I land an early threat and keep him on the back foot. He digs for more answers or at least a creature but only finds air. I comfortably take this one.
Game 3:
I start off stronger than he does and manage to get him down to within on swing of Goyf. He eventually lands 2x Phoenix and we go to turns. On his last turn I Cryptic tap his creatures and set myself up for a Goyf led win. He puts out one more blocker as insurance. I untap and draw another Cryptic and decide to go for it. He Pushes in response and the game ends in a draw. 0-1-1
There was a brief exchange where my opponent asked me whether or not I'd concede to him as he would win on the next turn. I remind him the only reason I Cryptic there is because it wins on the fifth turn. I certainly had outs that would have kept me in the game and the push was his last card.
Round 3: Burn
Game 1:
Burn does burn things and I don't have enough to stop it.
Board: Remands, 1 Cryptic and Clique come out and Seas and life gain go in.
Game 2:
I see all my sideboard cards and this makes me happy. My opponent had to read Kalitas a few times just to make sure how bad a card it was for her deck. I go down to 11 twice, but finish the game with 24 life.
Game 3:
I again see two of my boarded cards only this time my opponent had a hand that didn't care. She ran right over me before I could cast them. I was left with nothing but regret as I could have cast Pulse of Murasa targeting a land just to gain 6 life instead of putting out a road block. That's all hindsight as I had no idea she sandbagged two hasty creatures to launch her final attach for exactsies. 0-2-1
Round 4: Eldrazi and Taxes
Game 1:
I manage to stay out from under Arbitor and other taxing creatures, unfortunately doing so left me vulnerable to having my Vial repeatedly flickered. In the end the set back was too much to overcome.
Board: Removal in and costly spells out.
Game 2:
I locked him out so bad this game he ends up scooping it without me having taken one single point of damage.
Game 3:
He gets his revenge as I mull to 4. I'm forced to keep a one lander, but thankfully another shows up. Unfortunately for me that land was a fetch and it comes down right after Arbitor. Thalia backed up by a Ghost Quarter seal the deal before I see a workable land. 0-3-1
Round 5: Burn
Game 1:
I work this game into the late stages where I eventually establish he EC soft lock. My opponent obliges by only casting a spell a turn and I come out on top after he gets me down to 4.
Board: Same as before.
Game 2:
He manages to knock me down to 2 life, but Pulse of Murasa comes to the rescue. I stabilize from there and take him out with a couple of beefy Goyf swings. 1-3-1
Round 6: Death's Shadow
Game 1:
He mulls to 5 and does enough damage to himself he makes it easy for Goyf and friends to finish the job.
Board: Same as the LCT.
Game 2:
This time I mull to 5. I get close to turning the tables, but he has one more attacker than I have blockers.
Game 3:
Super close finish to this one. We trade removal after removal before we each get down to extremely low life totals. Though all my black removal kept me alive and put me in a position to win, I was left wishing I had one bolt while my opponent sat at 3 life before swinging for the final point. 1-4-1
Round 7: Hardened Scales
Game 1:
I mull to 5. Opponent vomits hand onto the board and is swinging for chunks of damage before I get anything going.
Board: I want to say Remand and a Cryptic came out for the board wipes and Rejections.
Game 2:
I land an impressive Early Goyf that starts taking 5 point chunks out of his life total. I was able to get to this position by destroying everything on sight.
Game 3:
He mulls down to 4 and fails to establish anything. Flayer does most of the work and helps me chain the right spells to keep him off the board. 2-4-1
Round 8: GDS
Game 1:
I mull to 5, and watch as my opponent almost gets low enough for me to steal it. Unfortunately, I run out of gas and his beats get there.
Board: Same as before.
Game 2:
We go back and forth for several turns. Neither of us are keen on letting creatures stick around for long, I keep an Angler off the board using three remands. That proves to be the difference maker as I set it up to take him out.
Game 3:
My had lines up too well against his. I keep him off the board and Vial in an early threat. Eventually I overwhelm him before he even gets a chance to swing at me. 3-4-1
TL;DR: The deck is super fun, but I'm not the best pilot. While my overall record isn't great, I was pleased I took at least one game each round of the GP. I'm taking it as a sign I'm really close to turning the corner and the deck is actually good. Even if it's not, it's a blast to play.
I made someTHING different for the side events on Sunday, but it's late now and I'm going to bed. Let me know if you have any thoughts or questions on my list.
Sweet, thanks for the breakdown. Yeah, Eternal Command is really challenging. I was getting crushed on MTGO competitive for a while, then turned a corner with the deck. Now I'm coming back to it and seeing if I can figure out a list that makes sense. I think I would prefer three Scooze MB and no Flayer in the current meta, but that might not be correct.
Do you think Spreading Seas is the way to go? I assume its to attack Tron primarily, but your running Trophy + Extraction for that, plus you have the ceremonious rejections. You don't need the seas for UW lands because of fatal push. It's not helpful against Titan because they just bounce their lands. I like it against Burn, but if we up the number of Brutality and either add more Scooze/Kalitis we should be okay there.
I would probably look at moving away from that number of Spreading Seas and Extractions. Black gives us access to Nihil Spellbomb, and we have Scooze and Kalitis to help vs. Phoenix / Dredge. I do love the Extraction + Trophy combination. Yeah, I think you might be better served cutting the three seas and one of the Extractions. If you replace the Flayers with Scavenging Ooze in the main that really frees you up in terms of the number of Extractions you need in the board. That's four extra SB slots.
Just thinking out loud here:) I'm not expert on the deck. One thing I can't stand is the 3/2 Serum Vision - Opt split. I always want to cut the Opts for SB cards. I think I'd rather just go 4 serum visions. I also have really liked Mana Leak in some numbers.
Funny you should mention those Seas. They were certainly a hold over before I picked up Trophy. I liked them against Tron, Burn, and Bogles where sometimes you just lock them out of the game. They almost always came in over Remand so I kept the cantrip.
That being said I'm eager to replace them now. You see the something I tried out on Sunday was Thing in the Ice. My buddy and I were discussing how my deck performed and the GP in general. Closing out games can sometimes be a problem for the deck so he suggested Thing over Goyf. I told him that's absurd and started my argument against Thing being in the deck. Somewhere in there I realized I could use them in the spot I had Flayer. I love Flayer and it's had some great games for me, but I realized I could slide Thing in that spot and get in roughly the same if not more damage with Thing. So I tried it out.
It was wonderful. Now, you may not be happy to hear that I did place one more Opt in the MD to help flip Thing. I did so by sacrificing Clique. I'm not sure that's right, but that's what I did. Thing is incredibly useful. It's a board reset, allows you to reuse Snap/Witness, and with Vial live flipping at the end of their turn and placing down a beefy Goyf can just close out a game. I'm still in a early stages of testing Thing out, but I like it.
Back to the Seas, I agree they should go. There were a few times on Sunday I went to board and realized I couldn't just put in an Enchantment willy nilly like I had before as I needed the spells to flip Thing.
My matches were against:
2-0 vs. Rock (on Draw)
2-0 vs. UW Control (on Draw)
2-0 vs. Izzet Phoenix (on Play)
2-1 vs. 5 color DS aggro (on Play)
2-1 vs. Tron (on Play)
I would like to think I got a solid representation with these decks. The only non-tier one deck is the DS one, and its still very powerful, just not as played as other versions. Thing in the Ice won me two games, once vs. Izzet Phoenix ironically when I managed to flip a Thing to bounce their one blocker, and then again vs. Tron, just helping me finish out the game and buy back a Snap. I boarded them out vs. UW Control.
The 4 Remands were great for me. Bought me a lot of time. I had been running more Leaks, but now that I have Thing in the Ice I want more card draw in the deck. I also reversed the Serum / Opt count as a result. Garruk was sweet in the one game I managed to play him (vs. Rock) as he killed a key Ooze on the other side. I have real questions about Tormod's Crypt, and Creeping Corrosion.
The other all star was Cindervine. My goodness that card is sweet. It can act as random artifact or enchantment removal, while also bumping up Goyf. But where it really shines is getting chip damage vs. UW Control, being a major issue for Izzet Phoenix (Although my opponenet managed to keep it off the board), and obviously nutty vs. spell based decks like Storm or even the new Whir Prison decks.
Anyways, the deck would obviously need more testing to see if Thing in the Ice is where we want to be, but it certainly performed better for me than it has the last number of times I've tried to play it. Some of that is varience obviously, how much, I'm not sure.
Congrats! I'm looking forward to seeing people discuss your list on Reddit.
Those are certainly real decks. Any chance you recorded the league?
Good to hear Thing worked for you. I really think it can be a difference maker by bouncing the board and swinging in for those precious last points of damage. I think it's even more potent in the Temur version.
How often did you have a Sorcery in the yard? Did you miss having one? I'll have start counting how many times this matters for Goyf.
Cindervines seems like sweet tech. Garruk is a house. Not sure Crypt is the best option. Why did you go with those? I think Corrosion should keep getting a chance. Whir is dangerous and you'll want something to clear the way.
Is Eternal Command playable with the recent B&R changes?
I've recently been finding success with a variation that cuts Tarmogoyf for Ice-Fang Coatl and plays the Kiki/Pestermite combo as well - I haven't played too much since the B&R, but the only deck I struggled with before it was Hogaak. Reasons for the swap are:
Not playing Goyfs makes you almost entirely instant speed, and Coatl/Pestermite lets you be proactive on their turn as well.
Clique and Goyf haven't aged well as bodies in the last 7 years.
Not playing Goyf makes closing out games slow - the combo helps with this. Having 8 flyers also allows a lot of chip damage for Snap/Bolt plan. Also resolving a Kiki with any other creature in play, especially Witness, is often winning.
Pestermite actually feels great. There are neat Vial interactions (you can vial in T4 to untap a land for Kiki, or untap vial). Lots of tempo plays that can make life really awkward for opponents.
One of Goyf's responsibilities was dealing with creatures - Coatl helps on this front as well.
Taking out Goyf but putting in Pestermite makes Ops deciding to have removal awkward - removal will be dead in their hand early, which is effectively a form of tempoing.
Taking out Goyf makes GY hate worse vs you.
There are plenty of downsides as well - most obviously no thicc creatures and almost everything has 1 toughness.
Drown in the Loch also looks very spicy for BUG Eternal Command.
Which builds ramp instead of Vial?
Having a hard answer to either DS, Gurmag or Wurmcoil Engines - and now Drakes - could be a massive boon. On the flip side, maybe going more on the vapor snag plan is the correct choice.
What about Thrash//Threat? Fight cards are risky, but honestly I'd prefer it to Electrolize which is borderline bad right now.
I'm still not sure what the best SB approach is to Tron. In practice I've liked Fulminator Mage because you can buy it back, but its kind of slow. I was thinking again of an old favorite, Crumble to Dust. That thing is fantastic, but again probably to slow? Do you guys board in land hate vs. Cavern of Souls? If so, what do you typically cut? Typically were talking Humans or Spirits so that means were cutting Remand? Clique? Cryptic? If we do that then we defeat the purpose of adding in land hate. I've typically just boarded out the remands (unless I want to deal with CC) and let them resolve their creatures.
Someone was mentioning that red has the better SB options right now. I'm not sure that's the case. Anger is better than Damnation, but I see a lot of rock decks running Languish, which is much better than Anger vs. Spirits, but obviously much worse vs. something like Dredge.
I've been fiddling around with Sultai Command because I like its GY hate - which in my view is the most important tool you can have right now. Temur just lacks on the GY hate unless you have access to some number of Surgical Extraction. Speaking of which, I think both versions need to be playing 2-3 md oozes right now.
I run 3 MB Cryptics, 2 MB Eternal Witness and 1 MB Huntmaster--with 2 Huntmaster in the SB. But I also run traverse package with Kiki and Bounding Krasis. Decklist in spoilers. I've had a lot of success with MB Huntmasters.
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Copperline Gorge
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
2 Flooded Grove
Creatures 14
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
3 Bounding Krasis
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Serum Visions
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Spreading Seas
2 Negate
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Nature's Claim
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
Boy oh boy do I have a list for you. This is what I jammed at a small modern gameday today. Went 3-1, and it was entirely brewed for fun/there's definitely room for tweaks.
Presenting: Creature Command AKA Bant Binder/Creature Goodstuff
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Spell Queller
4 Deputy of Detention
3 Reflector Mage
4 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial
Instants:
4 Cryptic Command
4 Collected Company
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Breeding Pool
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Unified Will
1 Dispel
1 Reflector Mage
3 Knight of Autumn
3 Scavenging Ooze
It felt really solid to have creatures + aether vial, and the deck had legs against some of the more common matchups (Storm & UW specifically). My only loss was to the new Primespeaker/pod deck (I would have had g1 if I knew what they were on before they went off, had 2 Meddling Mage in hand that I was holding for a proper cue, g2 I just got rolled by weird draws and a misplay early CoCo). Never got the hard lock down in this deck, but Vial + Eidolon of Rhetoric over performed. Eternal Witness + Unified Will also felt really good post board against control/combo.
There might be a case for ditching CoCo for Jace + some spells MB, but overall the creature package felt really good. Ran 4-ofs for most of the utility creatures to start and feel it out but that most likely isn't right. I also missed some of the power that Tarmogoyf brought to the table and it felt like closing out games was a big grind, but in this list, he doesn't feel like the right threat either. My list for next week will probably be cutting the 4th cryptic/witness/deputy for 3 Tireless Tracker. Gives card advantage and a growing threat that works through the hard lock.
I don't have any experience to back this up, its just a hunch.
Meddling mage, deputy of detentions, spell queller, reflector mage are the ones that stick out to me the most but also:
Knight of the reliquary, Knight of autumn, kataki war's wage, selfless spirit, eidolon of rhetoric, mirran crusader
The hits are significant. Not all of those cards are super relevant all the time but I see an angle here for the deck to pivot around these powerful hatebear-style creatures, while still having the combo as a backup for the long game and against opposing creature strategies.
Any thoughts?
I personally believe, that the best CoCo deck atm should be a straight Bant version, no need to dip into the Spirits department for medicore beats (you can and still are playing Queller and co) when you have stuff like Knight of the Relinquary.
An Bant "Taxes" style of deck could also work quite well (cause those three colours have a lot of annoying creatures), but it is simply not in my ball park, so I won't invest any time into it :/
Besides this, I have been playing a lot of BUG Wilderness Teachings in the past few week(s) and of course noticed several things (also regarding RUG Eternal Command):
- Play 4 Growth Spiral. The mana advantage you are getting is exactly what that deck wants. You usually either got it by using Vial, but more often than not you wanted more "ramp" without playing things like Bird or Utopia Sprawl.
- I would consider playing 1 or 2 Wilderness Reclamation in this deck, it is basically a super vial, since it allows you to do main phase stuff AND than do instant stuff. It is especially interesting with things like Search (which looks better in this deck than in BUG Teachings) or non Vial Draws. It also allows (along side of Growth Spiral) to play different CA spells. Note: Not so sure, if needed though.
- Chemister's Insight is the card you want to play if you want to get rid of excessive Vials (instead of Thirst). Sure, somewhat clunky, but it does it's job quite well.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I do think it could change the makeup of EC by replacing Vial. You'll lose the instant speed Witness lines, but it opens a lot more doors. I haven't been able to build a list I like yet though.
I am running my Sultai EC list this weekend at GP Bilbao. Going with the same 60, though I may ditch Collective Brutality for another card. The sideboard is majorly changed from my last GP. Going to consolidate the counters into 2 Countersqualls. Ditch all but flip Garruk for walkers. Add in Languish as a sweeper. And run three Surgical Extractions to shore up against the combo decks that rely on a few cards from the grave. I've been toying with a 1 of Damping Sphere. Not sure it's where I want to be.
Weird? I'm not so sure. The one thing that lets me down when I play this deck is a relative lack of card advantage or velocity. Mana, truth be told can be an issue at times but that's nothing unusual for modern.
I'll probably run three Cryptics and three scavenging ooze, set of goyf, plus a bunch of the usual suspects. Fatal push is straightforward, one abrupt decay, two assassin's trophy. After that I'll tweak, with an aim to keep the mana curve as low as possible.
I tried this a couple of years ago and it became my default list for quite some time. I ran four colours (tiny red splash for bolt in the main and ancient grudge in the side) so this brings me to another idea.
Has anyone tried running death's shadow in this deck? I mean if we're taking a bunch of damage from our lands, maybe it's a possibility? We could sub our counterspells for discard (save for the important Cryptic) and it'd make the deck more of a combo midrange deck?
GP Bilbao went much better. I dropped in the first round of the two Last Chance Qualifiers I entered on Friday. I really should have just entered the Double Up.
I entered this list for the main event:
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Eternal Witness
1x Vendillion Clique
4x Aether Vial
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Fatal Push
2x Assassin's Trophy
1x Collective Brutality
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Cryptic
3x Serum Visions
2x Opt
1x Spell Pierce
3x Breeding Pool
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Flooded Grove
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Watery Grave
1x Forest
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Countersquall
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Spreading Seas
1x Pulse of Murasa
1x Languish
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Engineered Explosives
First up the first LCT.
My opponent was kind enough to remind me Bogles is a deck prompting me to eventually put Explosives into the board. 0-2
Game 1:
He gets off to a strong start and I offer little in the way of interaction.
Board in: Creatures, Languish, and Spreading Seas
Board out: Remands, 1x Cryptic, Push
Game 2:
Slightly better go of it as I was able to keep the enchantment count fairly low, but then a Griffin's Boon allowed him to go over my chump blocking mages for the win.
Second LCT, GDS: 1-2
Game 1:
It was easy to identify my role early on as he starts doing damage to himself at an incredible rate. I don't let him keep anything on the board for long and he never hits me, though I go down to 11 to keep up with the threats he's putting down. Eventually I take two swings and take him out.
Board in: Scooze, Garruk, Countersquall
Board out: 2x Remand, 1x Cryptic
Game 2:
Back in forth game. I keep him off Fulminator Mage and Liliana for a couple of turns. He keeps me from sticking any threat. Eventually he lands one more punch than I do.
Game 3:
He does the thing where he takes his life down low and Stubbornly Denies my removal to take me out.
Nothing like spending 30 Euro on two matches to remind yourself you are here to have fun. Bogles was awful, but I felt I had game against GDS. I wasn't expecting to go day 2 in the GP, and this helped manage those expectations.
GP Bilbao:
Round 1: Bogles
Game 1:
Opponent opens up with land->Bogle, and I'm thanking my opponent from the first LCT for reminding me of how brutal this matchup is. He dispatches me quickly as I had kept a hand of targeted removal and Remands.
Board in: Explosives, Languish, Spreading Seas
Out: Remands and Push
Game 2:
Opponent has a familiar opening after I lay out a Vial. I kept a hand with Seas in it and immediately play it turn two. Sure enough the opponent didn't have a second land. He gets in once with his unenchanted Bogle, and tries again once more before I Vial in a Goyf to take it out. Opponent scoops it up from there.
Game 3:
He starts strong again and this time he didn't miss his land drops. I Pierce a Rancor but he follows it up with more. By turn 3 I'm facing down Coronet with little I can do. He runs away with it thanks to an Umbra protecting his creature.
0-1
Round 2: Grixis Phoenix
Game 1:
Some back and forth play. I have timely removal for his bird friends but eventually run out of gas.
Board: Out goes one each of the decks namesakes and 2x Remand to make way for Surgical and Scooze
Game 2:
I land an early threat and keep him on the back foot. He digs for more answers or at least a creature but only finds air. I comfortably take this one.
Game 3:
I start off stronger than he does and manage to get him down to within on swing of Goyf. He eventually lands 2x Phoenix and we go to turns. On his last turn I Cryptic tap his creatures and set myself up for a Goyf led win. He puts out one more blocker as insurance. I untap and draw another Cryptic and decide to go for it. He Pushes in response and the game ends in a draw.
0-1-1
There was a brief exchange where my opponent asked me whether or not I'd concede to him as he would win on the next turn. I remind him the only reason I Cryptic there is because it wins on the fifth turn. I certainly had outs that would have kept me in the game and the push was his last card.
Round 3: Burn
Game 1:
Burn does burn things and I don't have enough to stop it.
Board: Remands, 1 Cryptic and Clique come out and Seas and life gain go in.
Game 2:
I see all my sideboard cards and this makes me happy. My opponent had to read Kalitas a few times just to make sure how bad a card it was for her deck. I go down to 11 twice, but finish the game with 24 life.
Game 3:
I again see two of my boarded cards only this time my opponent had a hand that didn't care. She ran right over me before I could cast them. I was left with nothing but regret as I could have cast Pulse of Murasa targeting a land just to gain 6 life instead of putting out a road block. That's all hindsight as I had no idea she sandbagged two hasty creatures to launch her final attach for exactsies.
0-2-1
Round 4: Eldrazi and Taxes
Game 1:
I manage to stay out from under Arbitor and other taxing creatures, unfortunately doing so left me vulnerable to having my Vial repeatedly flickered. In the end the set back was too much to overcome.
Board: Removal in and costly spells out.
Game 2:
I locked him out so bad this game he ends up scooping it without me having taken one single point of damage.
Game 3:
He gets his revenge as I mull to 4. I'm forced to keep a one lander, but thankfully another shows up. Unfortunately for me that land was a fetch and it comes down right after Arbitor. Thalia backed up by a Ghost Quarter seal the deal before I see a workable land.
0-3-1
Round 5: Burn
Game 1:
I work this game into the late stages where I eventually establish he EC soft lock. My opponent obliges by only casting a spell a turn and I come out on top after he gets me down to 4.
Board: Same as before.
Game 2:
He manages to knock me down to 2 life, but Pulse of Murasa comes to the rescue. I stabilize from there and take him out with a couple of beefy Goyf swings.
1-3-1
Round 6: Death's Shadow
Game 1:
He mulls to 5 and does enough damage to himself he makes it easy for Goyf and friends to finish the job.
Board: Same as the LCT.
Game 2:
This time I mull to 5. I get close to turning the tables, but he has one more attacker than I have blockers.
Game 3:
Super close finish to this one. We trade removal after removal before we each get down to extremely low life totals. Though all my black removal kept me alive and put me in a position to win, I was left wishing I had one bolt while my opponent sat at 3 life before swinging for the final point.
1-4-1
Round 7: Hardened Scales
Game 1:
I mull to 5. Opponent vomits hand onto the board and is swinging for chunks of damage before I get anything going.
Board: I want to say Remand and a Cryptic came out for the board wipes and Rejections.
Game 2:
I land an impressive Early Goyf that starts taking 5 point chunks out of his life total. I was able to get to this position by destroying everything on sight.
Game 3:
He mulls down to 4 and fails to establish anything. Flayer does most of the work and helps me chain the right spells to keep him off the board.
2-4-1
Round 8: GDS
Game 1:
I mull to 5, and watch as my opponent almost gets low enough for me to steal it. Unfortunately, I run out of gas and his beats get there.
Board: Same as before.
Game 2:
We go back and forth for several turns. Neither of us are keen on letting creatures stick around for long, I keep an Angler off the board using three remands. That proves to be the difference maker as I set it up to take him out.
Game 3:
My had lines up too well against his. I keep him off the board and Vial in an early threat. Eventually I overwhelm him before he even gets a chance to swing at me.
3-4-1
TL;DR: The deck is super fun, but I'm not the best pilot. While my overall record isn't great, I was pleased I took at least one game each round of the GP. I'm taking it as a sign I'm really close to turning the corner and the deck is actually good. Even if it's not, it's a blast to play.
I made someTHING different for the side events on Sunday, but it's late now and I'm going to bed. Let me know if you have any thoughts or questions on my list.
Do you think Spreading Seas is the way to go? I assume its to attack Tron primarily, but your running Trophy + Extraction for that, plus you have the ceremonious rejections. You don't need the seas for UW lands because of fatal push. It's not helpful against Titan because they just bounce their lands. I like it against Burn, but if we up the number of Brutality and either add more Scooze/Kalitis we should be okay there.
I would probably look at moving away from that number of Spreading Seas and Extractions. Black gives us access to Nihil Spellbomb, and we have Scooze and Kalitis to help vs. Phoenix / Dredge. I do love the Extraction + Trophy combination. Yeah, I think you might be better served cutting the three seas and one of the Extractions. If you replace the Flayers with Scavenging Ooze in the main that really frees you up in terms of the number of Extractions you need in the board. That's four extra SB slots.
Just thinking out loud here:) I'm not expert on the deck. One thing I can't stand is the 3/2 Serum Vision - Opt split. I always want to cut the Opts for SB cards. I think I'd rather just go 4 serum visions. I also have really liked Mana Leak in some numbers.
That being said I'm eager to replace them now. You see the something I tried out on Sunday was Thing in the Ice. My buddy and I were discussing how my deck performed and the GP in general. Closing out games can sometimes be a problem for the deck so he suggested Thing over Goyf. I told him that's absurd and started my argument against Thing being in the deck. Somewhere in there I realized I could use them in the spot I had Flayer. I love Flayer and it's had some great games for me, but I realized I could slide Thing in that spot and get in roughly the same if not more damage with Thing. So I tried it out.
It was wonderful. Now, you may not be happy to hear that I did place one more Opt in the MD to help flip Thing. I did so by sacrificing Clique. I'm not sure that's right, but that's what I did. Thing is incredibly useful. It's a board reset, allows you to reuse Snap/Witness, and with Vial live flipping at the end of their turn and placing down a beefy Goyf can just close out a game. I'm still in a early stages of testing Thing out, but I like it.
Back to the Seas, I agree they should go. There were a few times on Sunday I went to board and realized I couldn't just put in an Enchantment willy nilly like I had before as I needed the spells to flip Thing.
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Opt
2 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Flameslash
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Remand
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thing in the Ice
1 Izzet Charm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Cryptic Command
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Flooded Grove
4 Mister Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Abrade
2 Cindervine
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
My matches were against:
2-0 vs. Rock (on Draw)
2-0 vs. UW Control (on Draw)
2-0 vs. Izzet Phoenix (on Play)
2-1 vs. 5 color DS aggro (on Play)
2-1 vs. Tron (on Play)
I would like to think I got a solid representation with these decks. The only non-tier one deck is the DS one, and its still very powerful, just not as played as other versions. Thing in the Ice won me two games, once vs. Izzet Phoenix ironically when I managed to flip a Thing to bounce their one blocker, and then again vs. Tron, just helping me finish out the game and buy back a Snap. I boarded them out vs. UW Control.
The 4 Remands were great for me. Bought me a lot of time. I had been running more Leaks, but now that I have Thing in the Ice I want more card draw in the deck. I also reversed the Serum / Opt count as a result. Garruk was sweet in the one game I managed to play him (vs. Rock) as he killed a key Ooze on the other side. I have real questions about Tormod's Crypt, and Creeping Corrosion.
The other all star was Cindervine. My goodness that card is sweet. It can act as random artifact or enchantment removal, while also bumping up Goyf. But where it really shines is getting chip damage vs. UW Control, being a major issue for Izzet Phoenix (Although my opponenet managed to keep it off the board), and obviously nutty vs. spell based decks like Storm or even the new Whir Prison decks.
Anyways, the deck would obviously need more testing to see if Thing in the Ice is where we want to be, but it certainly performed better for me than it has the last number of times I've tried to play it. Some of that is varience obviously, how much, I'm not sure.
Those are certainly real decks. Any chance you recorded the league?
Good to hear Thing worked for you. I really think it can be a difference maker by bouncing the board and swinging in for those precious last points of damage. I think it's even more potent in the Temur version.
How often did you have a Sorcery in the yard? Did you miss having one? I'll have start counting how many times this matters for Goyf.
Cindervines seems like sweet tech. Garruk is a house. Not sure Crypt is the best option. Why did you go with those? I think Corrosion should keep getting a chance. Whir is dangerous and you'll want something to clear the way.
I've recently been finding success with a variation that cuts Tarmogoyf for Ice-Fang Coatl and plays the Kiki/Pestermite combo as well - I haven't played too much since the B&R, but the only deck I struggled with before it was Hogaak. Reasons for the swap are:
Drown in the Loch also looks very spicy for BUG Eternal Command.