Played a few more games and the 5C deck keeps winning. The last match I played was a rogue planeswalker deck running both Anger of the Gods and Supreme Verdict in the main. I sniped both with Freebooter in G1, which would have been an automatic loss without it. Freebooter continues to impress me. I also played against Eldrazi Tron and they simply couldn't deal with the fast Mantis Rider clock in either game.
How has Channeler Initiate been for you in practice?
Very good for a mana dork. Yes it costs one more than Pilgrim, yes it provides more colors, yes it becomes a 3/4 beater at some point.
I'm also very curious about the reason to run Channeler Initiate over Avacyn's Pilgrim. Sure, the color fixing is nice, but 1 cmc vs 2 cmc is a massive difference. We want to be hitting our 3 drops on turn 2 as much as possible.
Color fixing is a massive difference as well. And I disagree with the fact I'd want to play 3-drops on T2 as much as possible. On T2, I have Med Mage, Freebooter, Lieutenant and some shocklands that I want etb tapped to save some life.
Rider on T3 has haste, so there's not tempo loss. Ref Mage is a poor beater and must be timed for a specific opponent's creature, so there's no point to cast it on T2 most of the time. Yes bouncing a Goblin Guide on T2 is cool, well I'll do it when I open with Noble and that it survives. No big deal.
The argument that Pilgrim makes the opening more explosive is irrelevant to me for this deck, on the other hand fighting Moon, fixing colors, getting one extra beater in the long term, all those little things combined make me confident Initiate is a fine filler in the deck. No more, no less.
I would add Pilgrim isn't what I want as another 1-drop. I'd rather have another agressive creature like Champ.
The "it dies to [x]" argument is pretty weak, imo. They need to have a LOT go right for them.
^ this. Guys, this deck is an aggro deck relying on creatures for Coco (i.e. 3-drops max that consequently all die to Fatal Push, and for the most part to Ligtning Bolt), please consider we are all aware of the fragility of creatures we play, and that it's not a valid argument not to run them.
I have the feeling that the disruptive list is better against combo while the mantis rider list is better against creatures.
Running both might be the best bet. The cool thing is that we have now one more interactive piece, and if ever the 5C manabase works, it's going to be the superior list. All in all, it's good news to have more flexibility with the archetype now, we can adapt to more specific environments !
Voltaic Brawler underperformed for me.
I don't quite remember my experience with it, but I know that the mana tension of Champ > Brawler > Mantis was the prime reason to cut it. Too painful. That was before the Death's Shadow dominance, but during the Dredge / Infect era. Now with Eldrazi Tron being a thing, I feel like Brawler lost a little bit of its power. I remember it was already difficult to attack through Tarmogoyf (BGx) back in the day. I still prefer smaller evasive guys over big grounders because many decks have better grounders than us.
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I'm also very curious about the reason to run Channeler Initiate over Avacyn's Pilgrim. Sure, the color fixing is nice, but 1 cmc vs 2 cmc is a massive difference. We want to be hitting our 3 drops on turn 2 as much as possible.
Color fixing is a massive difference as well. And I disagree with the fact I'd want to play 3-drops on T2 as much as possible. On T2, I have Med Mage, Freebooter, Lieutenant and some shocklands that I want etb tapped to save some life.
It's not even just 3 drops on T2, it's also being able to play 1 drop + 2 drop on T2, setting up for something like a double 2 drop on T3 or a Company or a 1 drop and a 3 drop. Modern as a format is very much about getting to 2 spells a turn as quickly as possible. The quick explosion out of the gates is very important for the deck and it very much wants a T1 dork. Saving life off shocklands is irrelevant in most matchups. You should aim to be the aggressor. I am very aggressive with my fetching and shocking in pretty much any matchup except burn/super aggro. Everything else, it very rarely matters. On the other hand, the speed of the deck matters all the time. Also, for decks running Thalia 2.0, a T1 dork is even more important than usual.
Compared to a T2 Mantis Rider, there definitely is a tempo loss. I have won plenty of games off of a T2 Mantis Rider, with a good number of those times being off the back of a Pilgrim.
Ref Mage is a poor beater and must be timed for a specific opponent's creature, so there's no point to cast it on T2 most of the time. Yes bouncing a Goblin Guide on T2 is cool, well I'll do it when I open with Noble and that it survives. No big deal.
There are plenty of impactful turn 2 Reflector Mage targets. Bouncing an opponent's mana dork is big game early on. Goblin Guide decks are another perfect example of why you'd want a T2 Mage; you're taking a LOT less damage in that scenario, which is crucial in that matchup. On the draw, hitting one of Storm's cost reducers on T2 is huge. There are plenty of times in plenty of matchups where an early Mage is very important.
The argument that Pilgrim makes the opening more explosive is irrelevant to me for this deck, on the other hand fighting Moon, fixing colors, getting one extra beater in the long term, all those little things combined make me confident Initiate is a fine filler in the deck. No more, no less.
Explosive openings in an aggro deck are the reason why you play an aggro deck. The deck is going to have some weakness to Blood Moon regardless of how you build the list; I want my deck to be as lean and efficient as possible and I don't want to sacrifice that for a single card that isn't actually played in a lot of matchups. And expecting it to live long enough to become a beater is asking a lot.
I would add Pilgrim isn't what I want as another 1-drop. I'd rather have another agressive creature like Champ.
A deck that's in the market for an aggressive 1 drop isn't going to also be in the market for slowing itself down with T2 mana dorks. 2 cmc is really where we want to be laying down the pressure, whether it's with an aggressive Lord/Brawler/Kari Zev or disruptive like Freebooter. Even something slow like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy at least puts some inevitability on the opponent.
The "it dies to [x]" argument is pretty weak, imo. They need to have a LOT go right for them.
^ this. Guys, this deck is an aggro deck relying on creatures for Coco (i.e. 3-drops max that consequently all die to Fatal Push, and for the most part to Ligtning Bolt), please consider we are all aware of the fragility of creatures we play, and that it's not a valid argument not to run them.
Agreed. It's ok to value toughness when it's not costing anything, but playing subpar creatures just because they're slightly more robust isn't the best idea in this deck.
I have the feeling that the disruptive list is better against combo while the mantis rider list is better against creatures.
Running both might be the best bet. The cool thing is that we have now one more interactive piece, and if ever the 5C manabase works, it's going to be the superior list. All in all, it's good news to have more flexibility with the archetype now, we can adapt to more specific environments !
Yeah, I think the mana base is still a bit too rough unfortunately, but the combination of a super fast clock and disruption is quite nice.
I don't quite remember my experience with it, but I know that the mana tension of Champ > Brawler > Mantis was the prime reason to cut it. Too painful. That was before the Death's Shadow dominance, but during the Dredge / Infect era. Now with Eldrazi Tron being a thing, I feel like Brawler lost a little bit of its power. I remember it was already difficult to attack through Tarmogoyf (BGx) back in the day. I still prefer smaller evasive guys over big grounders because many decks have better grounders than us.
What exactly is Brawler losing to on the ground? With ANY single lord or exalted effect, it's a 5/4 trampler on the ground, meaning it even attacks through Reality Smasher (something I have done plenty of times with the card). I certainly haven't had issues attacking through goyf with it. If we're facing anything bigger than that and don't have an answer for it, we're in big trouble regardless of what we're running at that slot. It's also fantastic against the common opposing gameplan of chump blocking. The color constraints haven't been an issue in the Bant Red deck and should be even easier now with Unclaimed Territory.
We'll agree to disagree on Pilgrim then. It's no big deal really.
The idea that you think Initiate is worse than Pilgrim makes little sense, because the only common point between those 2 that really matters to me is to be ready for a Coco on T3, or a sure Mantis on T3. I don't really care what the quality of my play is on T2.
Also, the thing you miss here is that Noble Hierarch provides all the scenarios you're talking about, it's not like if I didn't have access to those nice T2 big plays as well. I'm saying that, instead of playing more T1 dorks to increase those openings, I prefer playing T2 more versatile dorks. I can also tell you stories where a 3/4 Initiate wins games, where the creature saved my curve because of Forest or Plains not allowing a Mantis, or a Coco being uncastable if I had a Pilgrim instead... but I believe that using their different pros and cons to dismiss one or another is pointless. It's a flexible slot.
What exactly is Brawler losing to on the ground? With ANY single lord or exalted effect...
I'll stop you there. Most of the time, Brawler is a 3/2 on defense and a 4/3 on offense. The times it's pumped by a Lord is nearly equal to the times he'll attack with no energy. It's a nice combo to have both, but it's a fragile argument to bring here (like everything that implies "when everything goes as planned").
So as a 4/3, it's blocked or raced by Tas, Angler, Smasher, Tarmo, Etched Champ, Elves, pumped Merfolk, etc... the list goes on.
I'm not the one who dismisses the card, but I played it at least as much as you, as far as I can tell (6+ months), and I know very well when the card struggles, and when it shines. With the new manabase, it's definitely easier to include. Is it easy enough on the mana though ? It's in completely different colors than Med Mage, Ref Mage, Mantis, Ana, Freebooter, etc... That said, the power is there, I'm on your side. But let's not spread the idea it's so pushed that nothing can stop/race it. Imho, it's a playable, not a staple, whereas Freebooter leans towards the 2nd category (although not as a 4x necessarily). What do you think ?
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We'll agree to disagree on Pilgrim then. It's no big deal really.
The idea that you think Initiate is worse than Pilgrim makes little sense, because the only common point between those 2 that really matters to me is to be ready for a Coco on T3, or a sure Mantis on T3. I don't really care what the quality of my play is on T2.
I don't think Initiate is strictly worse in a general sense, but I do think it is worse in an aggro deck like Humans. It's more of a consistent deck velocity thing than anything else. T1 vs T2 dork is a massive difference in terms of velocity, and having 2 extra chances of hitting that is very important (I've found this number difference to be especially important when I have to mulligan). You should very much care about the play quality on T2; it's a big part of how you win games in Modern. I have spent a lot of time tweaking and tuning my lists to have the most impactful T2 plays in the widest array of scenarios, hence why I've spent a lot of time talking about cards like Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, Voltaic Brawler, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Duskwatch Recruiter and Kitesail Freebooter. It's why I went from only playing 4 Hierarchs to playing the 2 Pilgrims as well. My plan A is to have 3 mana available on T2, my plan B is to have a powerful standalone threat. I want my deck to do one of those 2 things as much as possible.
The scenarios that you mention of uncastable CoCos and Riders are rare, corner case scenarios in my experience. The games where you gain large advantages by playing a T1 dork are a dime a dozen.
What exactly is Brawler losing to on the ground? With ANY single lord or exalted effect...
I'll stop you there. Most of the time, Brawler is a 3/2 on defense and a 4/3 on offense. The times it's pumped by a Lord is nearly equal to the times he'll attack with no energy.
Running out of energy is something I paid close attention to when I started playing the card. In fact, I originally ran it with Rogue Refiner at the 3cmc slot to keep the energy tank full. Since then, this is what I've found:
I think I have had maybe one single game where my Brawler attacked with no energy. At that point, it had already done 8-10 damage with energy-enabled attacks and the opponent was dead. If your brawler lives long enough to run out of energy, then congrats, you've done 8+ damage for 2 mana and still have a 3/2 body on board. That's quite a deal. If you find yourself attacking with it often with no energy available, then something isn't right. Most of the time, the opponent either kills brawler immediately or they die to it - that is exactly what we want out of a 2 drop in an aggressive build like Bant Red, and no other 2 drop I know of does that (Kari Zev being the closest). I have found it incredibly rare to run out of energy; it is a 5/4 trample on attacks far more often than a vanilla 3/2, not to mention that multiples stack very well. We also have a deck that is literally built around a core of ways to make creatures bigger (10+ different cards in most builds), so if we're not able to do that, then our deck is failing at its own gameplan. I don't care what Brawler is on defense because the deck (especially the Bant Red build) is all about getting the opponent dead. We are the aggressor in 90%+ of matchups. It gets sided out for something like Arashin Cleric for the few matchups where we care about blocking and life totals.
It's a nice combo to have both, but it's a fragile argument to bring here (like everything that implies "when everything goes as planned").
Having the deck perform its most basic, built-around gameplan is not "everything goes as planned." It's what the deck is built to do. If it's not doing what it's built to do, we are losing. You're coming at it from extreme worst case scenarios that are unwinnable regardless of what 2 drop is being played. I am coming at it from a perspective of how the average game plays out, which is generally where we want to focus our attention. We don't currently have access to a 2 drop that can dig us out of such worst case scenarios (unless you're banking on a flipped Jace or sinking mana into a Recruiter), so it's best to play a 2 drop that maximizes our number of outs in average scenarios. More on this below...
So as a 4/3, it's blocked or raced by Tas, Angler, Smasher, Tarmo, Etched Champ, Elves, pumped Merfolk, etc... the list goes on.
If we have no ways to kill/clear those creatures AND no ways to pump Brawler, we are dead because our deck is doing nothing and we have probably drawn a bunch of lands or the opponent has successfully grinded us out of resources and we're bricking on draws. My above argument applies here as well. In an average version of the scenarios you listed (Tasigur, Angler, Goyf, Smasher), all we need is a single Noble Hierarch, Thalia's Lieutenant, Mayor of Avabruck, Reflector Mage or Path to Exile and we're golden. These cards take up ~18 slots in most main deck configurations, not counting Collected Company. With almost all of our other available 2 drops, we would NEED a Mage or Path to clear it, but with Brawler, we more than double our chances of punching through because all we need is one of at least 10 ways to pump it. If they want to trade their 5 and 6 drops with our 2 drop, be my guest. If you're not drawing into any one of those by the time this scenario pops up, then that just sucks. We simply cannot make card choices with such a scenario in mind. Etched Champion is a problem card regardless of what we do, and falls into the same boat. Against Elves and Merfolk, Brawler increases our ability to race because they can't chump it. So as you can see, with Brawler, we greatly increase the chance that these scenarios are not back breaking.
Also, with this same argument, lets go ahead and list out why Champion of the Parish is terrible since it's just a 1/1 for 1 .
Is it easy enough on the mana though ? It's in completely different colors than Med Mage, Ref Mage, Mantis, Ana, Freebooter, etc...
As I mentioned earlier, I am rather aggressive with my fetches and shocks and have not had issues casting Brawler, and the vast majority of my reps were before Unclaimed Territory. In a 4 color build, I wouldn't be concerned with mana constraints. A 5 color build is trickier, however.
That said, the power is there, I'm on your side. But let's not spread the idea it's so pushed that nothing can stop/race it. Imho, it's a playable, not a staple, whereas Freebooter leans towards the 2nd category (although not as a 4x necessarily). What do you think ?
I think that in the context of the Bant Red build, Brawler is most certainly one of the staple top choices; I would not run a Bant Red list without it. When we start talking 5 color or Bant Black, Freebooter is proving to be fantastic. It just depends on what you want your gameplan to be. Also, to be fair, all I originally said is that it has consistently overperformed for me. Whether I play it T2 on an empty board, push through some final damage by trampling over chump blockers, push through large creatures like discussed above, etc, it's played a major role in a lot of game wins in a wide variety of scenarios. Moreso than any other non-lord 2 drop I have tried in Bant Red.
@kingcars: you gave a lot of arguments for my opinion that we need 7 mana dorks instead of 6.
Haha that's fair. There are a lot of things to like about a T1 dork, so I can see an argument for running a 7th. I just don't like to draw too many or hit too many off of Collected Company, so 6 has been the sweet spot for me.
Quote from polymorpher »
@kingcars: you gave a lot of arguments for my opinion that we need 7 mana dorks instead of 6.
Haha that's fair. There are a lot of things to like about a T1 dork, so I can see an argument for running a 7th. I just don't like to draw too many or hit too many off of Collected Company, so 6 has been the sweet spot for me.
That is fair. You have much more experience with both lists. Which do you prefer for an open event like SCG Charlotte? Red with Mantis or the MM list?
I think that we should run 1 Abzan Falconer in the MM list main.
Quote from polymorpher »
@kingcars: you gave a lot of arguments for my opinion that we need 7 mana dorks instead of 6.
Haha that's fair. There are a lot of things to like about a T1 dork, so I can see an argument for running a 7th. I just don't like to draw too many or hit too many off of Collected Company, so 6 has been the sweet spot for me.
That is fair. You have much more experience with both lists. Which do you prefer for an open event like SCG Charlotte? Red with Mantis or the MM list?
I think that we should run 1 Abzan Falconer in the MM list main.
I'm honestly not 100% sure. My gut says that the Freebooter/MM/Sin Collector list is going to be better against the general meta since it has very good matchups with most of the popular decks, but I think if we can have a stable list that can utilize that alongside a fast clock like Mantis Rider, we could have the best of both worlds. Considering my testing yesterday, maybe something like this:
I was running Voltaic Brawler but the requirements were proving difficult to match up on curve alongside cards like Freebooter. With this build, the only red we need to worry about in the main is for Mantis Rider and we have a full 4 Kitesail Freebooter to provide information for Meddling Mage. For a more aggressive slant, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider could possibly replace Mage and doesn't have strict color requirements. If we want more disruption in the main, Thalia 2.0 and Sin Collector could be swapped. Of course, I have yet to test this, but plan to this evening. Maybe I'll boot up the twitch stream for a bit and do some testing.
All in all, I see 3 options. Go super fast and aggressive with a Bant Red Brawler/Zari Zev/Mantis Rider build, go disruptive with a Freebooter/Meddling Mage/Sin Collector build, or try to find a 5 color list that can do both. The Bant Red build runs Negate and Meddling Mage in the side for the matchups that Bant Black excels at, Bant Black sides in something like Abzan Falconer for mathcups that Bant Red excels at, and 5 Color....profits? idk yet haha
I would not want to cut CoCo. It is just too good.
I tested the 5color version with Mantis Rider today against a friend. Unfortunately, only against Affinity and Burn and it totally races both those decks even preboard against Affinity.
I just don't know how bad the Bant 5color list is against Valakut, Storm and other Combo decks. I feel that the disruptive version is better, slightly slower but could still almost race the other creature aggro decks (or we have to improve the SB a bit for those).
I really like your 5C list with 4 Freebooter @kingcars. I am just still not sure if we want MM over Sin Collector but I guess yes since otherwise we would have too many 3 drops.
How do you guys feel against Bant Eldrazi and RG Ponza with the disruptive list?
Bant Eldrazi is almost full creatures and go big very fast.
RG Ponza with Blood Moon and LD can be so annoying, they can ramp big creatures very fast and tons of mass removals (damn Bonfire), also Stormbreath is a monster against humans.
I think that Mantis Rider is weird here, he turns the mana base in a pain house. It's a great card, but is that enough power to risk?
Also, Mini Thalia is bad for Company/Path, but she puts a lot of pressure in the battlefield, almost always eat a removal saving your creatures and slowing your opponent.
Big Thalia otherside is strong too, I'm using 2 copies in my Bant Company and GW Hatebears, she won me lots of matches, even against RG Ponza with their fetchs and haste dragons, also a nightmare against Eldrazis.
This wednesday I will try a Humans list, but still searching the best configuration.
Also, Mini Thalia is bad for Company/Path, but she puts a lot of pressure in the battlefield, almost always eat a removal saving your creatures and slowing your opponent.
Big Thalia otherside is strong too, I'm using 2 copies in my Bant Company and GW Hatebears, she won me lots of matches, even against RG Ponza with their fetchs and haste dragons, also a nightmare against Eldrazis.
This wednesday I will try a Humans list, but still searching the best configuration.
Yes, that is me ;). I liked the list too, actually in that specific tournament the sin collectors were not very good and I was almost always boarding them out.
I think that Thalia V1.0 while being good against storm was very often actually a bit annoying because I could have Coco earlier. I think if you want to change than
-1 avacyn pilgrim
- 3 Thalia V1.0
- 1 Thalia V2.0
+3 Freebooter
+2 Anafenza or 1 Anafenza and 1 Sin Collector
Hmm these cards are good but not amazing. As has been mentioned before in this thread it's probably better to stick low to the ground without Coco and go more aggro.
Ok I convinced myself while writing this that a non fetch-shock manabase is probably not the way. Coco is one of the most powerful cards in the format so not playing it is most likely a misstake anyway.
Still posting this to show you my thought process. If in the future an overpowered 4cmc human gets printed, it might be worth exploring this manabase.
It's still an informative post, and definitely something I've mulled around for a while. Collected Company is just too good, at the moment. However, something I haven't really discussed since the initial spoiler for Unclaimed Territory is that it's finally much easier and painless to run some 3+ color aggro. I'm finally able to run Bloodsoaked Champion, Boros Elite, Warden of the First Tree etc in the same deck! It's fun to play when I'm not feeling like thinking much. My current "for fun" list:
Anyway, I hope we can find a way to play mantis rider alongside black hand disruption humans because I agree that would be the best of both worlds.
Agreed. I think it comes down to fully optimizing the mana, from both a creature color requirement standpoint and the manabase itself. If we can make it solid, we're golden.
I just don't know how bad the Bant 5color list is against Valakut, Storm and other Combo decks. I feel that the disruptive version is better, slightly slower but could still almost race the other creature aggro decks (or we have to improve the SB a bit for those).
Yeah, I dedicated plenty of sideboard slots for those matchups, basically being able to make the deck into the Bant Black disruption deck when we need it.
I really like your 5C list with 4 Freebooter @kingcars. I am just still not sure if we want MM over Sin Collector but I guess yes since otherwise we would have too many 3 drops.
Yeah, I think it's a mana curve thing, and with 4 Freebooters main, we should be able to set up MM pretty well.
How do you guys feel against Bant Eldrazi and RG Ponza with the disruptive list?
Bant Eldrazi is almost full creatures and go big very fast.
RG Ponza with Blood Moon and LD can be so annoying, they can ramp big creatures very fast and tons of mass removals (damn Bonfire), also Stormbreath is a monster against humans.
Bant Eldrazi is definitely a matchup that is weaker for the Bant Black deck as opposed to the Bant Red deck. Bant Red crushes Eldrazi, while the Bant Black deck would struggle at least in mainboard configuration. Abzan Falconer out of the side would be very annoying for them. However, 4x Reflector Mage is always a huge against them, so it's never going to be *that* bad of a matchup.
As for Ponza, the Bant Black deck has more answers for Blood Moon thanks to Kitesail Freebooter, which conveniently also gives us our first legit way to block a Stormbreath Dragon. I didn't even realize that till right now...
Either way, without having played the matchup, I'd say that you'd want some disruption and way to kill them before they get out from under it. (this is where Mantis Rider or Anafenza, the Foremost come in.
I think that Mantis Rider is weird here, he turns the mana base in a pain house. It's a great card, but is that enough power to risk?
Mantis Rider is most certainly worth testing. After playing with the Bant Black list for a few days, dropping a Mantis Rider on T2 felt incredibly powerful and reminded me just how good of a card it is. There are plenty of games where haste and flying basically mean that you have a Lighting Bolt to surprise kill your opponent with after they think they've pulled back ahead with a sweeper. It pressures planeswalkers very effectively, which is something the Bant Black deck struggles with. It's very big game. The question right now is whether or not we can make the mana work. My current gameplan is to make Mantis Rider the only red card in the main, which should help alleviate tension. We'll see how it goes. I'm liking the results so far.
Also, Mini Thalia is bad for Company/Path, but she puts a lot of pressure in the battlefield, almost always eat a removal saving your creatures and slowing your opponent.
The biggest problem with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is that there are other cards we can run that do the same things she does, but better, and without slowing us down. Voltaic Brawler and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider put much more pressure on the battlefield, are much more difficult to block, and similarly act as lighting rods for removal. Kitesail Freebooter, Sin Collector and Kambal, Consul of Allocation actually steal spells and punish the opponent for casting spells. Thalia isn't even that great against Storm, which has plenty of ways to nullify or even "pull ahead" of her effect with how many cost reducers they run. When I ran her, even when she was slowing my opponent down, she was slowing me down just as much. I'd rather play creatures that hate out the same stuff and don't slow me down.
Big Thalia otherside is strong too, I'm using 2 copies in my Bant Company and GW Hatebears, she won me lots of matches, even against RG Ponza with their fetchs and haste dragons, also a nightmare against Eldrazis.
I definitely like Big Thalia as an "auxiliary" 3 drop. She slows down/nullifies a lot of things - Nahiri/Emmy combo, Ghost Quarter recursion, opposing Collected Companies/Aether Vials, token generators, haste creatures, you name it.
EDIT:
Just wanted to update after a few games of testing a 5C build. First, here's the list:
The first big question was the mana. Fortunately, it appears that the mana base is stable. I played a total of 8 games (small sample size, I know, but 8 games is enough to at least have a general yay or nay sense of things) and did not encounter any major self-inflicted colored mana issues. However, the deck is weak to well-timed mana disruption like a Ghost Quarter or Spreading Seas, but if you're going to play a 4 or 5 color deck, that's always going to be a thing. All in all, I'd say we're doing as well as can be expected on the mana side of things. Mantis Rider was consistently castable, even when following up Freebooter.
I could go on and on about Mantis Rider, Freebooter, Meddling Mage etc. But we all know what these creatures do and they do it very well. The big win here is the fact that sideboard contains the narrower side our disruption package, meaning that we can fully sideboard into being the Bant Black list when it's needed without having to worry about dead Sin Collectors in Game 1. I would certainly recommend testing this list and seeing how it works; it's right up there with the others.
I really like the new mantis rider 5c list. Which match ups did you face in these 8 games? More creature or more combo? Do you think this list can race valakut without disruption? Don't we really want a 7th mana dork?;)
Definitely will try this last configuration but with 7 dorks.
Side Will be -1 Kataki -1 Arashin + 2 Big Thalia I guess (against Eldrazi and stuff).
The mana base still scares me, Eldrazi Tron, RG Ponza and UW Control can ruin my colors and they are in my LGS.
:/
Definitely will try this last configuration but with 7 dorks.
Side Will be -1 Kataki -1 Arashin + 2 Big Thalia I guess (against Eldrazi and stuff).
The mana base still scares me, Eldrazi Tron, RG Ponza and UW Control can ruin my colors and they are in my LGS.
:/
Definitely will try this last configuration but with 7 dorks.
Side Will be -1 Kataki -1 Arashin + 2 Big Thalia I guess (against Eldrazi and stuff).
The mana base still scares me, Eldrazi Tron, RG Ponza and UW Control can ruin my colors and they are in my LGS.
:/
What are you going to cut for the dork?
Big Thalia I guess and will pray for Reflector Mages game 1 against Eldrazis.
I really like the new mantis rider 5c list. Which match ups did you face in these 8 games? More creature or more combo? Do you think this list can race valakut without disruption? Don't we really want a 7th mana dork?;)
I faced Affinity, Esper Control, Mono White humans and a UW Control brew running Search for Azcanta. I went 2-0 in all the rounds. As for the 7th dork, this list actually runs 1 less 3 drop than usual in order to make room for the 4th Kitesail Freebooter, so it may be *slightly* less necessary. Feel free to give it a shot, though!
I imagine Mantis Rider definitely makes the race easier, but you'll want to hope for some timely Freebooter hits as well.
Definitely will try this last configuration but with 7 dorks.
Side Will be -1 Kataki -1 Arashin + 2 Big Thalia I guess (against Eldrazi and stuff).
The mana base still scares me, Eldrazi Tron, RG Ponza and UW Control can ruin my colors and they are in my LGS.
:/
I'm not sure I'd add an extra mana dork at the expense of having a heavy hitter for Affinity and Lantern. We're already golden against Bant Eldrazi with Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage. If anything, I'd probably shave the 2nd Meddling Mage. As for the mana base, we're 4-5C, so that's always going to be a concern. Just get a lot of reps in and pay super close attention to what you're fetching and when; when I first started playing these decks, I screwed myself on mana far more often than the opponent did haha. Hopefully Freebooter can hold off some of the land destruction spells long enough to get set up. If/when mana base stability is a more major concern, I'd recommend making the list straight Bant with *maybe* a tiny red or black splash. Here's a super rough idea of what that would look like:
Unfortunately I don't have time to really flesh it out right now, but it should give you an idea of what I'm thinking. The 2 drop slot will suffer from the lack of a core red or black color splash and I'm not sure what the right 2 drop configuration looks like here, but that's the price of having more stable mana requirements. It really comes down to how much pure power level you want vs how much mana stability you want. We have viable 3, 3.5, 4 and 5 color options and I don't think we have a clear indication yet on which is the optimal version.
In the 5c or BantR build, Harsh Mentor definitely deserves a spot in the board versus creature combo decks. i.e. Affinity, Knightfall, Counters Company and the other Devoted Druid Decks.
I use it as a hate piecee in my Bushwhacker list and it works great.
So I've totally missed the 5 colour and Human Hatebears discussions over the past few days, and I ended up taking plain old Bant Red Knightfall Humans to a PPTQ yesterday. List was very similar to the one that top 8'd GP Birmingham and Joel Larsson was streaming with, although I cut a Pilgrim for a 3 mana Thalia and had a slightly different manabase in the main. Sideboard I had Negates, Spell Queller, War Priest of Thune and a Pithing Needle over Unified Will, Blessed Alliance and the second 2 Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist.
Round 1 v. Grixis Death’s Shadow 0-2
I normally don’t mind this matchup but this was very one-sided. Had my hand picked apart in both games and Kolaghan’s Command/Fatal Push just left me with no resources. Game two we both had nothing in hand but I was getting clocked by a Tar Pit. Drew Company and hit a Pilgrim… GG.
In – Negates, Spell Quellers
Out – Retreats, Mayors
Round 2 v. Titanshift 2-0
Ugh. Up there with Tron for my least favourite matches as they have such a strong linear plan and sometimes it can feel a bit futile doing what we do against it. Fortunately this didn’t seem to be the all-in solitaire version of the deck, and he wasn’t able to get ahead of me on the play. Prime-time came down but I was able to Reflector Mage it and swing in with my board. Game 2 I get a Forge-tender early to give me some confidence in developing my board. Again he seems a turn slower than I’d expect, and his Summoner’s Pact is Spell Quellered when he has 6 lands. Think I got lucky here as I’d expect this to be a tougher matchup normally.
In – Negates, Spell Quellers, Forge-tenders
Out – Paths, Reflector Mages
Round 3 v. Storm 2-0
Fortunately my friend plays Storm so I have a decent amount of experience against it. Not that that does you any favours sometimes but I at least feel comfortable playing against it. This is the first match where my opponent doesn’t seem to fully know my deck, and it probably costs him the first game. I have a 4/4 Champ, a 2/2 Lieutenant and a Knight of the Reliquary with 2 fetches in the graveyard. My opponent picks up the Knight and reads it. He then mini-storms to Grapeshot for 10, pointing 4 at the Champ, 2 at the Lieutenant, 2 at the Knight and 2 at me. He’s then surprised when I don’t bin my Knight. I feel sort of bad, but he later said that he didn’t properly read the card, so I figure that’s on him. Turn 4 I play a Retreat to Coralhelm and get no real reaction so I have to combo off. He realises what I’m doing when my Knight is at lethal size so I don’t have to risk fetching into a dead end.
Game 2 my Thalia cancels out his Electromancer, but he goes for it Turn 4 with a Baral from Turn 3. It doesn’t seem like it’s a strong attempt, so when he uses his last 2 mana to Desperate Ritual about 6 spells in, I Negate it and then Reflector Mage his Electromancer to swing through for lethal.
In – Negates, Quellers, Forge-Tender
Out – Big Thalia, Witnesses, 2 Path
Game 4 v. Elves 2-1
Another matchup I’m more familiar with, but sometimes Elves do Elf things. He builds a huge board and CoCos for a solitary Elf. Maybe I have a chance here… oh a second CoCo for more Elves. GG.
Game 2 my opponent leads off with a Heritage Druid on a 1 lander. I also kept a 1 lander, but mine was Champ and 2 Hierarchs. He scoops pretty quickly to a 5/5 Champ as the second land doesn’t come. Game 3 my opponent starts on a Heritage Druid. I start with Triple Hierarch and then a Knight which is a pretty absurd size and a Canonist which stops him catching up to me. My opponent concludes that Heritage Druid is nice, but it isn’t a mana dork by itself, which is what probably cost him games 2 and 3.
In – Canonist, Staticasters
Out – 2 mana Thalia,Witnesses
Game 5 v. UW Gideons 2-1
This appeared to be UW control featuring 3, 4 and 5 mana Gideon. The manabase for this deck is certainly weak to disruption, and Spreading Seas really punished this. Game 1 I was losing my manabase to Spreading Seas so I overcommitted into a Verdict and then the Gideon show took care of me.
Games 2 and 3 I had good aggressive starts with Champ plus two one drops to get a clock going. I managed to Ghost Quarter myself out of triple Spreading Seas to cast a Collected Company to get past his Wall of Omens game 2, and Game 3 I had a large Knight that whittled my opponent down until he had to flash in a Snapcaster as a blocker, which I Quelled. He didn’t see a Path the entire game, which was definitely lucky on my part, and on another day he is probably able to stabilise against me.
In – Negates, Quellers, Canonist
Out – Big Thalia, 2 Mages, 2 Paths
Round 6 v. Titanshift ID (0-2)
We ID’d into Top 8 as my opponent was on 13 points so would likely be top 2 with the other 13 pointer. We played anyway and I got crushed. This was the more solitaire version and it was very quick, even with me building out a board at a good speed game 1 Scapeshift took care of me. Game 2 my hand didn’t really come together and I lost in quick fashion. Time to go see what the vendor has.
Top 8 v. 8 Rack? 2-1
I’m into Top 8 in 4th, so I play the 5th seed. He’s playing mono-black hand disruption rack stuff, so Game 1 I get Smallpoxed, Mindwrenched, Liliana – the works. Game 2 I develop a good board and decide to race the rack effects with a Thalia. He top decks Damnation but that gets Quellered and I make it to Game 3. 3rd game he takes the draw and I mull to 6, so I’m not in the best position. We get to turn 3 or so and I have a Knight and 3 lands on board with 2 lands in hand. My lands get Mind Wrenched and I draw CoCo. I pass and my opponent plays Thoughtseize, so I float a mana, sac the tapped land with Knight and cast CoCo. I get two hits and finish the game two turns later. My opponent then goes on a massive rant about my top deck CoCo and how lucky I was and how he had me if I hadn’t drawn it. Whilst it was the best card I could have drawn at that time most likely, I felt I was due one as it was my first of the match, and if he’d drawn a Damnation I lose. That’s how Magic is sometimes.
In – Negates, Quellers, Canonist
Out – Big Thalia, Paths
Top 4 v. Titanshift 2-1
Same guy as in Round 6. Game 1 I have him down to 1 and he Scapeshifts. Not quick enough on the draw.
Game 2 I lead off with Hierarch into Champ and Forge-tender. He Bolts the Champ and I decide to let it resolve as I have him on Anger/Sweltering. Some exalted creatures get my opponent down to 11, and I CoCo in Lieutenant and Reflector, bouncing his Tribe Elder. He sac’s it in response triggering Valakut and pointing it at my Forge-tender. I have a Pilgrim and Lieutenant in hand to pump the team for exact lethal. He has the Sweltering Suns as his last card.
Game 3 is more like Game 1 with him largely going into solitaire mode and me trying to build a board. He goes for Hour of Promise Turn 4 and is on his way to his deck when I say “I’d like to Negate that”. He’s pretty stunned and his plan folds on the spot.
Even when you win against this deck it’s always by the skin of your teeth it feels, but the left-field Negate felt pretty great.
In – Negates, Quellers, Forge-tenders
Out – Paths, 2 Reflector Mages
Finals v. Bogles
Not a match I have ever played (pretty new to Modern), but I knew how it can go. He is on the play and plays Bogle into Hyena Umbra into Coronet into one that gave it protection from creatures?! Done.
Game 2 I have Hierarch into little Thalia for his Bogle into Hyena Umbra. I then play War Priest taking the Umbra into Canonist. This is enough pressure to slow him down, and 2 swings from the team is enough to force Game 3.
Game 3 – see Game 1. I’m too slow on the draw, and a Bogle with everything on it ends me very quickly.
In – War Priest, Canonist, Negates, Quellers
Out – Witnesses, 2 Paths, 2 Reflector Mages
Overall I’m really happy with the deck, Humans and Company is definitely what I want to be playing in Modern. It’s great that there are so many versions of the deck, and I definitely think there is something here. People don’t really have the deck on their radar like they do with the other known/tier decks, which is an advantage – my storm opponent not fully reading Knight, my 8 rack opponent getting tilted as my Knight gave me the chance to have 4 mana to cast my top decked CoCo rather than the three mana I had in lands, my Scapeshift opponent not expecting counterspells etc.
If there is lots of removal to stop us early that can be hard to come from outside of a good CoCo or the combo, and I think we do need to adapt sideboards to force the more-combo orientated decks to interact with us rather than just letting them do their thing.
Good cards
- Negate – this could have been Unified Will and probably will be going forward, but I hadn’t played with it before the tournament. Stops combo players/boardwipes and is a big punish for people who don’t know the deck well and don’t respect a creature based deck having disruption.
- Little Thalia – yes she can be a pain for us, particularly if we side into more spells, but she’s a good sideboard call at the very least. If they play non-creature spells this can really mess them up and give us that extra turn to win ahead of them. If they’re a creature based deck then you’ve got to just scrap it out and trust that you have the better creatures. She probably won me matches v 8 Rack and Storm single handedly by giving me an extra turn to keep swinging. I can totally see why she isn't liked, but I'll keep one floating around the 75 I think.
- Knight – I got the combo twice, which probably helped me sneak a game or two which I might have not otherwise won, but on its own I think the Knight offers a big threat that can easily outgrow bolt/suns/anger etc and in a boardstall will happily sit back on defence and eventually find you Kessig Wolf Run to trample over. Mirran Crusader is your other heavy hitter option in more traditional Humans lists, but I don’t know if it is the better card, although Knight benefits from the extra fetches etc that are run in the Knightfall list. Also I had a Retreat out with no Knight a couple of times and it wasn't a disaster - tapping down blockers is perfectly fine at times.
Not so good cards
- Nothing majorly stands out in the main board. Big Thalia didn’t appear in the right matchups, but she would have been a welcome sight against Elves and might have made a difference against Titanshift to stop the Tribe Elders and Wood Elves chumping my big creatures.
- Eternal Witness was probably the least impressive compared to its ceiling, although this is probably just a case of variance in a small tournament sample size. I know the lines where she can be helpful, and being an expensive Snapcaster Mage is no bad thing at times, but at others she is an understatted 3 drop if your graveyard isn’t full.
- Pithing Needle only came in against UW Gideons, and I don’t think it was a great choice. I’d cut it.
Ideas/Next Steps
- I might try swapping the Witnesses for a couple of Quellers as I brought Queller in nearly every game. It gives me disruption against the more unfair decks Game 1, and some removal protection if they have it. Witness is good as a value Human card, but I find that game 1 I can end up on the beatdown plan quite often, and a Queller lets me commit onto a board and then hold up Queller to prevent removal and tempo swings. If the game is grindier then I’ll bring Witnesses in, but they’re much worse than Quellers game 1 versus Storm, Valakut, Elves and other non-interactive decks.
- I want to try Kingcars’ disruptive Humans list to see how that feels as another option for the Humans company lists, and because I think black offers a lot to the theme with Anafenza, Sin Collector, Kambal and Freebooter. Currently a disruption heavy list with a solid creature base as a fail case seems like a good place to be in Modern.
TLDR – Came second, deck is good, think Queller is worth a try as a non-Human. People don’t respect/know the deck fully, and countermagic is pretty great.
Thanks for the write up! I love seeing the variety and versatility of these Humans decks.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?
Very good for a mana dork. Yes it costs one more than Pilgrim, yes it provides more colors, yes it becomes a 3/4 beater at some point.
Color fixing is a massive difference as well. And I disagree with the fact I'd want to play 3-drops on T2 as much as possible. On T2, I have Med Mage, Freebooter, Lieutenant and some shocklands that I want etb tapped to save some life.
Rider on T3 has haste, so there's not tempo loss. Ref Mage is a poor beater and must be timed for a specific opponent's creature, so there's no point to cast it on T2 most of the time. Yes bouncing a Goblin Guide on T2 is cool, well I'll do it when I open with Noble and that it survives. No big deal.
The argument that Pilgrim makes the opening more explosive is irrelevant to me for this deck, on the other hand fighting Moon, fixing colors, getting one extra beater in the long term, all those little things combined make me confident Initiate is a fine filler in the deck. No more, no less.
I would add Pilgrim isn't what I want as another 1-drop. I'd rather have another agressive creature like Champ.
^ this. Guys, this deck is an aggro deck relying on creatures for Coco (i.e. 3-drops max that consequently all die to Fatal Push, and for the most part to Ligtning Bolt), please consider we are all aware of the fragility of creatures we play, and that it's not a valid argument not to run them.
Running both might be the best bet. The cool thing is that we have now one more interactive piece, and if ever the 5C manabase works, it's going to be the superior list. All in all, it's good news to have more flexibility with the archetype now, we can adapt to more specific environments !
I don't quite remember my experience with it, but I know that the mana tension of Champ > Brawler > Mantis was the prime reason to cut it. Too painful. That was before the Death's Shadow dominance, but during the Dredge / Infect era. Now with Eldrazi Tron being a thing, I feel like Brawler lost a little bit of its power. I remember it was already difficult to attack through Tarmogoyf (BGx) back in the day. I still prefer smaller evasive guys over big grounders because many decks have better grounders than us.
It's not even just 3 drops on T2, it's also being able to play 1 drop + 2 drop on T2, setting up for something like a double 2 drop on T3 or a Company or a 1 drop and a 3 drop. Modern as a format is very much about getting to 2 spells a turn as quickly as possible. The quick explosion out of the gates is very important for the deck and it very much wants a T1 dork. Saving life off shocklands is irrelevant in most matchups. You should aim to be the aggressor. I am very aggressive with my fetching and shocking in pretty much any matchup except burn/super aggro. Everything else, it very rarely matters. On the other hand, the speed of the deck matters all the time. Also, for decks running Thalia 2.0, a T1 dork is even more important than usual.
Compared to a T2 Mantis Rider, there definitely is a tempo loss. I have won plenty of games off of a T2 Mantis Rider, with a good number of those times being off the back of a Pilgrim.
There are plenty of impactful turn 2 Reflector Mage targets. Bouncing an opponent's mana dork is big game early on. Goblin Guide decks are another perfect example of why you'd want a T2 Mage; you're taking a LOT less damage in that scenario, which is crucial in that matchup. On the draw, hitting one of Storm's cost reducers on T2 is huge. There are plenty of times in plenty of matchups where an early Mage is very important.
Explosive openings in an aggro deck are the reason why you play an aggro deck. The deck is going to have some weakness to Blood Moon regardless of how you build the list; I want my deck to be as lean and efficient as possible and I don't want to sacrifice that for a single card that isn't actually played in a lot of matchups. And expecting it to live long enough to become a beater is asking a lot.
A deck that's in the market for an aggressive 1 drop isn't going to also be in the market for slowing itself down with T2 mana dorks. 2 cmc is really where we want to be laying down the pressure, whether it's with an aggressive Lord/Brawler/Kari Zev or disruptive like Freebooter. Even something slow like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy at least puts some inevitability on the opponent.
Agreed. It's ok to value toughness when it's not costing anything, but playing subpar creatures just because they're slightly more robust isn't the best idea in this deck.
Yeah, I think the mana base is still a bit too rough unfortunately, but the combination of a super fast clock and disruption is quite nice.
What exactly is Brawler losing to on the ground? With ANY single lord or exalted effect, it's a 5/4 trampler on the ground, meaning it even attacks through Reality Smasher (something I have done plenty of times with the card). I certainly haven't had issues attacking through goyf with it. If we're facing anything bigger than that and don't have an answer for it, we're in big trouble regardless of what we're running at that slot. It's also fantastic against the common opposing gameplan of chump blocking. The color constraints haven't been an issue in the Bant Red deck and should be even easier now with Unclaimed Territory.
The idea that you think Initiate is worse than Pilgrim makes little sense, because the only common point between those 2 that really matters to me is to be ready for a Coco on T3, or a sure Mantis on T3. I don't really care what the quality of my play is on T2.
Also, the thing you miss here is that Noble Hierarch provides all the scenarios you're talking about, it's not like if I didn't have access to those nice T2 big plays as well. I'm saying that, instead of playing more T1 dorks to increase those openings, I prefer playing T2 more versatile dorks. I can also tell you stories where a 3/4 Initiate wins games, where the creature saved my curve because of Forest or Plains not allowing a Mantis, or a Coco being uncastable if I had a Pilgrim instead... but I believe that using their different pros and cons to dismiss one or another is pointless. It's a flexible slot.
I'll stop you there. Most of the time, Brawler is a 3/2 on defense and a 4/3 on offense. The times it's pumped by a Lord is nearly equal to the times he'll attack with no energy. It's a nice combo to have both, but it's a fragile argument to bring here (like everything that implies "when everything goes as planned").
So as a 4/3, it's blocked or raced by Tas, Angler, Smasher, Tarmo, Etched Champ, Elves, pumped Merfolk, etc... the list goes on.
I'm not the one who dismisses the card, but I played it at least as much as you, as far as I can tell (6+ months), and I know very well when the card struggles, and when it shines. With the new manabase, it's definitely easier to include. Is it easy enough on the mana though ? It's in completely different colors than Med Mage, Ref Mage, Mantis, Ana, Freebooter, etc... That said, the power is there, I'm on your side. But let's not spread the idea it's so pushed that nothing can stop/race it. Imho, it's a playable, not a staple, whereas Freebooter leans towards the 2nd category (although not as a 4x necessarily). What do you think ?
I don't think Initiate is strictly worse in a general sense, but I do think it is worse in an aggro deck like Humans. It's more of a consistent deck velocity thing than anything else. T1 vs T2 dork is a massive difference in terms of velocity, and having 2 extra chances of hitting that is very important (I've found this number difference to be especially important when I have to mulligan). You should very much care about the play quality on T2; it's a big part of how you win games in Modern. I have spent a lot of time tweaking and tuning my lists to have the most impactful T2 plays in the widest array of scenarios, hence why I've spent a lot of time talking about cards like Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, Voltaic Brawler, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Duskwatch Recruiter and Kitesail Freebooter. It's why I went from only playing 4 Hierarchs to playing the 2 Pilgrims as well. My plan A is to have 3 mana available on T2, my plan B is to have a powerful standalone threat. I want my deck to do one of those 2 things as much as possible.
The scenarios that you mention of uncastable CoCos and Riders are rare, corner case scenarios in my experience. The games where you gain large advantages by playing a T1 dork are a dime a dozen.
Running out of energy is something I paid close attention to when I started playing the card. In fact, I originally ran it with Rogue Refiner at the 3cmc slot to keep the energy tank full. Since then, this is what I've found:
I think I have had maybe one single game where my Brawler attacked with no energy. At that point, it had already done 8-10 damage with energy-enabled attacks and the opponent was dead. If your brawler lives long enough to run out of energy, then congrats, you've done 8+ damage for 2 mana and still have a 3/2 body on board. That's quite a deal. If you find yourself attacking with it often with no energy available, then something isn't right. Most of the time, the opponent either kills brawler immediately or they die to it - that is exactly what we want out of a 2 drop in an aggressive build like Bant Red, and no other 2 drop I know of does that (Kari Zev being the closest). I have found it incredibly rare to run out of energy; it is a 5/4 trample on attacks far more often than a vanilla 3/2, not to mention that multiples stack very well. We also have a deck that is literally built around a core of ways to make creatures bigger (10+ different cards in most builds), so if we're not able to do that, then our deck is failing at its own gameplan. I don't care what Brawler is on defense because the deck (especially the Bant Red build) is all about getting the opponent dead. We are the aggressor in 90%+ of matchups. It gets sided out for something like Arashin Cleric for the few matchups where we care about blocking and life totals.
Having the deck perform its most basic, built-around gameplan is not "everything goes as planned." It's what the deck is built to do. If it's not doing what it's built to do, we are losing. You're coming at it from extreme worst case scenarios that are unwinnable regardless of what 2 drop is being played. I am coming at it from a perspective of how the average game plays out, which is generally where we want to focus our attention. We don't currently have access to a 2 drop that can dig us out of such worst case scenarios (unless you're banking on a flipped Jace or sinking mana into a Recruiter), so it's best to play a 2 drop that maximizes our number of outs in average scenarios. More on this below...
If we have no ways to kill/clear those creatures AND no ways to pump Brawler, we are dead because our deck is doing nothing and we have probably drawn a bunch of lands or the opponent has successfully grinded us out of resources and we're bricking on draws. My above argument applies here as well. In an average version of the scenarios you listed (Tasigur, Angler, Goyf, Smasher), all we need is a single Noble Hierarch, Thalia's Lieutenant, Mayor of Avabruck, Reflector Mage or Path to Exile and we're golden. These cards take up ~18 slots in most main deck configurations, not counting Collected Company. With almost all of our other available 2 drops, we would NEED a Mage or Path to clear it, but with Brawler, we more than double our chances of punching through because all we need is one of at least 10 ways to pump it. If they want to trade their 5 and 6 drops with our 2 drop, be my guest. If you're not drawing into any one of those by the time this scenario pops up, then that just sucks. We simply cannot make card choices with such a scenario in mind. Etched Champion is a problem card regardless of what we do, and falls into the same boat. Against Elves and Merfolk, Brawler increases our ability to race because they can't chump it. So as you can see, with Brawler, we greatly increase the chance that these scenarios are not back breaking.
Also, with this same argument, lets go ahead and list out why Champion of the Parish is terrible since it's just a 1/1 for 1 .
As I mentioned earlier, I am rather aggressive with my fetches and shocks and have not had issues casting Brawler, and the vast majority of my reps were before Unclaimed Territory. In a 4 color build, I wouldn't be concerned with mana constraints. A 5 color build is trickier, however.
I think that in the context of the Bant Red build, Brawler is most certainly one of the staple top choices; I would not run a Bant Red list without it. When we start talking 5 color or Bant Black, Freebooter is proving to be fantastic. It just depends on what you want your gameplan to be. Also, to be fair, all I originally said is that it has consistently overperformed for me. Whether I play it T2 on an empty board, push through some final damage by trampling over chump blockers, push through large creatures like discussed above, etc, it's played a major role in a lot of game wins in a wide variety of scenarios. Moreso than any other non-lord 2 drop I have tried in Bant Red.
Haha that's fair. There are a lot of things to like about a T1 dork, so I can see an argument for running a 7th. I just don't like to draw too many or hit too many off of Collected Company, so 6 has been the sweet spot for me.
That is fair. You have much more experience with both lists. Which do you prefer for an open event like SCG Charlotte? Red with Mantis or the MM list?
I think that we should run 1 Abzan Falconer in the MM list main.
I'm honestly not 100% sure. My gut says that the Freebooter/MM/Sin Collector list is going to be better against the general meta since it has very good matchups with most of the popular decks, but I think if we can have a stable list that can utilize that alongside a fast clock like Mantis Rider, we could have the best of both worlds. Considering my testing yesterday, maybe something like this:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Meddling Mage
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
I was running Voltaic Brawler but the requirements were proving difficult to match up on curve alongside cards like Freebooter. With this build, the only red we need to worry about in the main is for Mantis Rider and we have a full 4 Kitesail Freebooter to provide information for Meddling Mage. For a more aggressive slant, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider could possibly replace Mage and doesn't have strict color requirements. If we want more disruption in the main, Thalia 2.0 and Sin Collector could be swapped. Of course, I have yet to test this, but plan to this evening. Maybe I'll boot up the twitch stream for a bit and do some testing.
All in all, I see 3 options. Go super fast and aggressive with a Bant Red Brawler/Zari Zev/Mantis Rider build, go disruptive with a Freebooter/Meddling Mage/Sin Collector build, or try to find a 5 color list that can do both. The Bant Red build runs Negate and Meddling Mage in the side for the matchups that Bant Black excels at, Bant Black sides in something like Abzan Falconer for mathcups that Bant Red excels at, and 5 Color....profits? idk yet haha
I tested the 5color version with Mantis Rider today against a friend. Unfortunately, only against Affinity and Burn and it totally races both those decks even preboard against Affinity.
I just don't know how bad the Bant 5color list is against Valakut, Storm and other Combo decks. I feel that the disruptive version is better, slightly slower but could still almost race the other creature aggro decks (or we have to improve the SB a bit for those).
I really like your 5C list with 4 Freebooter @kingcars. I am just still not sure if we want MM over Sin Collector but I guess yes since otherwise we would have too many 3 drops.
Bant Eldrazi is almost full creatures and go big very fast.
RG Ponza with Blood Moon and LD can be so annoying, they can ramp big creatures very fast and tons of mass removals (damn Bonfire), also Stormbreath is a monster against humans.
I think that Mantis Rider is weird here, he turns the mana base in a pain house. It's a great card, but is that enough power to risk?
Before Ixalan I really like this list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202
Clean and powerful, with the New cards, why not change the Big Thalias for Freebooters and adjust the mana base with Unclaimed Territory?
Also, Mini Thalia is bad for Company/Path, but she puts a lot of pressure in the battlefield, almost always eat a removal saving your creatures and slowing your opponent.
Big Thalia otherside is strong too, I'm using 2 copies in my Bant Company and GW Hatebears, she won me lots of matches, even against RG Ponza with their fetchs and haste dragons, also a nightmare against Eldrazis.
This wednesday I will try a Humans list, but still searching the best configuration.
Yes, that is me ;). I liked the list too, actually in that specific tournament the sin collectors were not very good and I was almost always boarding them out.
I think that Thalia V1.0 while being good against storm was very often actually a bit annoying because I could have Coco earlier. I think if you want to change than
-1 avacyn pilgrim
- 3 Thalia V1.0
- 1 Thalia V2.0
+3 Freebooter
+2 Anafenza or 1 Anafenza and 1 Sin Collector
It's still an informative post, and definitely something I've mulled around for a while. Collected Company is just too good, at the moment. However, something I haven't really discussed since the initial spoiler for Unclaimed Territory is that it's finally much easier and painless to run some 3+ color aggro. I'm finally able to run Bloodsoaked Champion, Boros Elite, Warden of the First Tree etc in the same deck! It's fun to play when I'm not feeling like thinking much. My current "for fun" list:
3 Boros Elite
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Mayor of Avabruck
Spells (10)
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 War Priest of Thune
2 Rest in Peace
3 Arashin Cleric
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Agreed. I think it comes down to fully optimizing the mana, from both a creature color requirement standpoint and the manabase itself. If we can make it solid, we're golden.
Yeah, I dedicated plenty of sideboard slots for those matchups, basically being able to make the deck into the Bant Black disruption deck when we need it.
Yeah, I think it's a mana curve thing, and with 4 Freebooters main, we should be able to set up MM pretty well.
Bant Eldrazi is definitely a matchup that is weaker for the Bant Black deck as opposed to the Bant Red deck. Bant Red crushes Eldrazi, while the Bant Black deck would struggle at least in mainboard configuration. Abzan Falconer out of the side would be very annoying for them. However, 4x Reflector Mage is always a huge against them, so it's never going to be *that* bad of a matchup.
As for Ponza, the Bant Black deck has more answers for Blood Moon thanks to Kitesail Freebooter, which conveniently also gives us our first legit way to block a Stormbreath Dragon. I didn't even realize that till right now...
Either way, without having played the matchup, I'd say that you'd want some disruption and way to kill them before they get out from under it. (this is where Mantis Rider or Anafenza, the Foremost come in.
Mantis Rider is most certainly worth testing. After playing with the Bant Black list for a few days, dropping a Mantis Rider on T2 felt incredibly powerful and reminded me just how good of a card it is. There are plenty of games where haste and flying basically mean that you have a Lighting Bolt to surprise kill your opponent with after they think they've pulled back ahead with a sweeper. It pressures planeswalkers very effectively, which is something the Bant Black deck struggles with. It's very big game. The question right now is whether or not we can make the mana work. My current gameplan is to make Mantis Rider the only red card in the main, which should help alleviate tension. We'll see how it goes. I'm liking the results so far.
The biggest problem with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is that there are other cards we can run that do the same things she does, but better, and without slowing us down. Voltaic Brawler and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider put much more pressure on the battlefield, are much more difficult to block, and similarly act as lighting rods for removal. Kitesail Freebooter, Sin Collector and Kambal, Consul of Allocation actually steal spells and punish the opponent for casting spells. Thalia isn't even that great against Storm, which has plenty of ways to nullify or even "pull ahead" of her effect with how many cost reducers they run. When I ran her, even when she was slowing my opponent down, she was slowing me down just as much. I'd rather play creatures that hate out the same stuff and don't slow me down.
I definitely like Big Thalia as an "auxiliary" 3 drop. She slows down/nullifies a lot of things - Nahiri/Emmy combo, Ghost Quarter recursion, opposing Collected Companies/Aether Vials, token generators, haste creatures, you name it.
EDIT:
Just wanted to update after a few games of testing a 5C build. First, here's the list:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Meddling Mage
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
4 Arashin Cleric
The first big question was the mana. Fortunately, it appears that the mana base is stable. I played a total of 8 games (small sample size, I know, but 8 games is enough to at least have a general yay or nay sense of things) and did not encounter any major self-inflicted colored mana issues. However, the deck is weak to well-timed mana disruption like a Ghost Quarter or Spreading Seas, but if you're going to play a 4 or 5 color deck, that's always going to be a thing. All in all, I'd say we're doing as well as can be expected on the mana side of things. Mantis Rider was consistently castable, even when following up Freebooter.
I could go on and on about Mantis Rider, Freebooter, Meddling Mage etc. But we all know what these creatures do and they do it very well. The big win here is the fact that sideboard contains the narrower side our disruption package, meaning that we can fully sideboard into being the Bant Black list when it's needed without having to worry about dead Sin Collectors in Game 1. I would certainly recommend testing this list and seeing how it works; it's right up there with the others.
Side Will be -1 Kataki -1 Arashin + 2 Big Thalia I guess (against Eldrazi and stuff).
The mana base still scares me, Eldrazi Tron, RG Ponza and UW Control can ruin my colors and they are in my LGS.
:/
What are you going to cut for the dork?
Big Thalia I guess and will pray for Reflector Mages game 1 against Eldrazis.
I faced Affinity, Esper Control, Mono White humans and a UW Control brew running Search for Azcanta. I went 2-0 in all the rounds. As for the 7th dork, this list actually runs 1 less 3 drop than usual in order to make room for the 4th Kitesail Freebooter, so it may be *slightly* less necessary. Feel free to give it a shot, though!
I imagine Mantis Rider definitely makes the race easier, but you'll want to hope for some timely Freebooter hits as well.
I'm not sure I'd add an extra mana dork at the expense of having a heavy hitter for Affinity and Lantern. We're already golden against Bant Eldrazi with Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage. If anything, I'd probably shave the 2nd Meddling Mage. As for the mana base, we're 4-5C, so that's always going to be a concern. Just get a lot of reps in and pay super close attention to what you're fetching and when; when I first started playing these decks, I screwed myself on mana far more often than the opponent did haha. Hopefully Freebooter can hold off some of the land destruction spells long enough to get set up. If/when mana base stability is a more major concern, I'd recommend making the list straight Bant with *maybe* a tiny red or black splash. Here's a super rough idea of what that would look like:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
4 Unclaimed Territory
1 Forest
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Arashin Cleric
4 Negate
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
1 Izzet Staticaster
Unfortunately I don't have time to really flesh it out right now, but it should give you an idea of what I'm thinking. The 2 drop slot will suffer from the lack of a core red or black color splash and I'm not sure what the right 2 drop configuration looks like here, but that's the price of having more stable mana requirements. It really comes down to how much pure power level you want vs how much mana stability you want. We have viable 3, 3.5, 4 and 5 color options and I don't think we have a clear indication yet on which is the optimal version.
I use it as a hate piecee in my Bushwhacker list and it works great.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Round 1 v. Grixis Death’s Shadow 0-2
I normally don’t mind this matchup but this was very one-sided. Had my hand picked apart in both games and Kolaghan’s Command/Fatal Push just left me with no resources. Game two we both had nothing in hand but I was getting clocked by a Tar Pit. Drew Company and hit a Pilgrim… GG.
In – Negates, Spell Quellers
Out – Retreats, Mayors
Round 2 v. Titanshift 2-0
Ugh. Up there with Tron for my least favourite matches as they have such a strong linear plan and sometimes it can feel a bit futile doing what we do against it. Fortunately this didn’t seem to be the all-in solitaire version of the deck, and he wasn’t able to get ahead of me on the play. Prime-time came down but I was able to Reflector Mage it and swing in with my board. Game 2 I get a Forge-tender early to give me some confidence in developing my board. Again he seems a turn slower than I’d expect, and his Summoner’s Pact is Spell Quellered when he has 6 lands. Think I got lucky here as I’d expect this to be a tougher matchup normally.
In – Negates, Spell Quellers, Forge-tenders
Out – Paths, Reflector Mages
Round 3 v. Storm 2-0
Fortunately my friend plays Storm so I have a decent amount of experience against it. Not that that does you any favours sometimes but I at least feel comfortable playing against it. This is the first match where my opponent doesn’t seem to fully know my deck, and it probably costs him the first game. I have a 4/4 Champ, a 2/2 Lieutenant and a Knight of the Reliquary with 2 fetches in the graveyard. My opponent picks up the Knight and reads it. He then mini-storms to Grapeshot for 10, pointing 4 at the Champ, 2 at the Lieutenant, 2 at the Knight and 2 at me. He’s then surprised when I don’t bin my Knight. I feel sort of bad, but he later said that he didn’t properly read the card, so I figure that’s on him. Turn 4 I play a Retreat to Coralhelm and get no real reaction so I have to combo off. He realises what I’m doing when my Knight is at lethal size so I don’t have to risk fetching into a dead end.
Game 2 my Thalia cancels out his Electromancer, but he goes for it Turn 4 with a Baral from Turn 3. It doesn’t seem like it’s a strong attempt, so when he uses his last 2 mana to Desperate Ritual about 6 spells in, I Negate it and then Reflector Mage his Electromancer to swing through for lethal.
In – Negates, Quellers, Forge-Tender
Out – Big Thalia, Witnesses, 2 Path
Game 4 v. Elves 2-1
Another matchup I’m more familiar with, but sometimes Elves do Elf things. He builds a huge board and CoCos for a solitary Elf. Maybe I have a chance here… oh a second CoCo for more Elves. GG.
Game 2 my opponent leads off with a Heritage Druid on a 1 lander. I also kept a 1 lander, but mine was Champ and 2 Hierarchs. He scoops pretty quickly to a 5/5 Champ as the second land doesn’t come. Game 3 my opponent starts on a Heritage Druid. I start with Triple Hierarch and then a Knight which is a pretty absurd size and a Canonist which stops him catching up to me. My opponent concludes that Heritage Druid is nice, but it isn’t a mana dork by itself, which is what probably cost him games 2 and 3.
In – Canonist, Staticasters
Out – 2 mana Thalia,Witnesses
Game 5 v. UW Gideons 2-1
This appeared to be UW control featuring 3, 4 and 5 mana Gideon. The manabase for this deck is certainly weak to disruption, and Spreading Seas really punished this. Game 1 I was losing my manabase to Spreading Seas so I overcommitted into a Verdict and then the Gideon show took care of me.
Games 2 and 3 I had good aggressive starts with Champ plus two one drops to get a clock going. I managed to Ghost Quarter myself out of triple Spreading Seas to cast a Collected Company to get past his Wall of Omens game 2, and Game 3 I had a large Knight that whittled my opponent down until he had to flash in a Snapcaster as a blocker, which I Quelled. He didn’t see a Path the entire game, which was definitely lucky on my part, and on another day he is probably able to stabilise against me.
In – Negates, Quellers, Canonist
Out – Big Thalia, 2 Mages, 2 Paths
Round 6 v. Titanshift ID (0-2)
We ID’d into Top 8 as my opponent was on 13 points so would likely be top 2 with the other 13 pointer. We played anyway and I got crushed. This was the more solitaire version and it was very quick, even with me building out a board at a good speed game 1 Scapeshift took care of me. Game 2 my hand didn’t really come together and I lost in quick fashion. Time to go see what the vendor has.
Top 8 v. 8 Rack? 2-1
I’m into Top 8 in 4th, so I play the 5th seed. He’s playing mono-black hand disruption rack stuff, so Game 1 I get Smallpoxed, Mindwrenched, Liliana – the works. Game 2 I develop a good board and decide to race the rack effects with a Thalia. He top decks Damnation but that gets Quellered and I make it to Game 3. 3rd game he takes the draw and I mull to 6, so I’m not in the best position. We get to turn 3 or so and I have a Knight and 3 lands on board with 2 lands in hand. My lands get Mind Wrenched and I draw CoCo. I pass and my opponent plays Thoughtseize, so I float a mana, sac the tapped land with Knight and cast CoCo. I get two hits and finish the game two turns later. My opponent then goes on a massive rant about my top deck CoCo and how lucky I was and how he had me if I hadn’t drawn it. Whilst it was the best card I could have drawn at that time most likely, I felt I was due one as it was my first of the match, and if he’d drawn a Damnation I lose. That’s how Magic is sometimes.
In – Negates, Quellers, Canonist
Out – Big Thalia, Paths
Top 4 v. Titanshift 2-1
Same guy as in Round 6. Game 1 I have him down to 1 and he Scapeshifts. Not quick enough on the draw.
Game 2 I lead off with Hierarch into Champ and Forge-tender. He Bolts the Champ and I decide to let it resolve as I have him on Anger/Sweltering. Some exalted creatures get my opponent down to 11, and I CoCo in Lieutenant and Reflector, bouncing his Tribe Elder. He sac’s it in response triggering Valakut and pointing it at my Forge-tender. I have a Pilgrim and Lieutenant in hand to pump the team for exact lethal. He has the Sweltering Suns as his last card.
Game 3 is more like Game 1 with him largely going into solitaire mode and me trying to build a board. He goes for Hour of Promise Turn 4 and is on his way to his deck when I say “I’d like to Negate that”. He’s pretty stunned and his plan folds on the spot.
Even when you win against this deck it’s always by the skin of your teeth it feels, but the left-field Negate felt pretty great.
In – Negates, Quellers, Forge-tenders
Out – Paths, 2 Reflector Mages
Finals v. Bogles
Not a match I have ever played (pretty new to Modern), but I knew how it can go. He is on the play and plays Bogle into Hyena Umbra into Coronet into one that gave it protection from creatures?! Done.
Game 2 I have Hierarch into little Thalia for his Bogle into Hyena Umbra. I then play War Priest taking the Umbra into Canonist. This is enough pressure to slow him down, and 2 swings from the team is enough to force Game 3.
Game 3 – see Game 1. I’m too slow on the draw, and a Bogle with everything on it ends me very quickly.
In – War Priest, Canonist, Negates, Quellers
Out – Witnesses, 2 Paths, 2 Reflector Mages
Overall I’m really happy with the deck, Humans and Company is definitely what I want to be playing in Modern. It’s great that there are so many versions of the deck, and I definitely think there is something here. People don’t really have the deck on their radar like they do with the other known/tier decks, which is an advantage – my storm opponent not fully reading Knight, my 8 rack opponent getting tilted as my Knight gave me the chance to have 4 mana to cast my top decked CoCo rather than the three mana I had in lands, my Scapeshift opponent not expecting counterspells etc.
If there is lots of removal to stop us early that can be hard to come from outside of a good CoCo or the combo, and I think we do need to adapt sideboards to force the more-combo orientated decks to interact with us rather than just letting them do their thing.
Good cards
- Negate – this could have been Unified Will and probably will be going forward, but I hadn’t played with it before the tournament. Stops combo players/boardwipes and is a big punish for people who don’t know the deck well and don’t respect a creature based deck having disruption.
- Little Thalia – yes she can be a pain for us, particularly if we side into more spells, but she’s a good sideboard call at the very least. If they play non-creature spells this can really mess them up and give us that extra turn to win ahead of them. If they’re a creature based deck then you’ve got to just scrap it out and trust that you have the better creatures. She probably won me matches v 8 Rack and Storm single handedly by giving me an extra turn to keep swinging. I can totally see why she isn't liked, but I'll keep one floating around the 75 I think.
- Knight – I got the combo twice, which probably helped me sneak a game or two which I might have not otherwise won, but on its own I think the Knight offers a big threat that can easily outgrow bolt/suns/anger etc and in a boardstall will happily sit back on defence and eventually find you Kessig Wolf Run to trample over. Mirran Crusader is your other heavy hitter option in more traditional Humans lists, but I don’t know if it is the better card, although Knight benefits from the extra fetches etc that are run in the Knightfall list. Also I had a Retreat out with no Knight a couple of times and it wasn't a disaster - tapping down blockers is perfectly fine at times.
Not so good cards
- Nothing majorly stands out in the main board. Big Thalia didn’t appear in the right matchups, but she would have been a welcome sight against Elves and might have made a difference against Titanshift to stop the Tribe Elders and Wood Elves chumping my big creatures.
- Eternal Witness was probably the least impressive compared to its ceiling, although this is probably just a case of variance in a small tournament sample size. I know the lines where she can be helpful, and being an expensive Snapcaster Mage is no bad thing at times, but at others she is an understatted 3 drop if your graveyard isn’t full.
- Pithing Needle only came in against UW Gideons, and I don’t think it was a great choice. I’d cut it.
Ideas/Next Steps
- I might try swapping the Witnesses for a couple of Quellers as I brought Queller in nearly every game. It gives me disruption against the more unfair decks Game 1, and some removal protection if they have it. Witness is good as a value Human card, but I find that game 1 I can end up on the beatdown plan quite often, and a Queller lets me commit onto a board and then hold up Queller to prevent removal and tempo swings. If the game is grindier then I’ll bring Witnesses in, but they’re much worse than Quellers game 1 versus Storm, Valakut, Elves and other non-interactive decks.
- I want to try Kingcars’ disruptive Humans list to see how that feels as another option for the Humans company lists, and because I think black offers a lot to the theme with Anafenza, Sin Collector, Kambal and Freebooter. Currently a disruption heavy list with a solid creature base as a fail case seems like a good place to be in Modern.
TLDR – Came second, deck is good, think Queller is worth a try as a non-Human. People don’t respect/know the deck fully, and countermagic is pretty great.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Abzan Falconer
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Arashin Cleric
3 Sin Collector
Changes:
-3 Sin Collector, +2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar +1 Kitesail Freebooter in the main.
-1 Sacred Foundry -1 Kataki, War's Wage -1 Kitesail Freebooter +3 Sin Collector in the side
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?