I am going to play test against Burn more, but in the few (I will admit, it's been less than 10) against Burn, I've won nearly every time. I think I've gotten pretty lucky, especially after the few mulligans that I have had.
I'll let you know how it goes, but I feel that the matchup is fairly 50/50 ish.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Got a couple of queries about your sideboard:
1. Is a single Staticaster really worth it?
This means you need to add a land to your sideboard, which could possibly free up a better utility card? Could Orzhov Pontiff provide the solution? I appreciate that it only works when it enters the battlefield, but you already have the right colours maindeck and you're playing 4 CoCos. In theory, you could always drop Staticaster and Foundry and add 2 to the sideboard?
2. I see you've been a big advocate of arashin cleric, but with the amount of humans in the deck, would auriok champion be a better option? This way you're less likely to get caught out if an opponent has skullcrack, as you will likely be able to keep jamming creatures, rather than relying on a one-off.
3. Is Abzan falconer really worth it?
What do you bring it in against? It seems a bit to situational for my liking.... I know this scenario is a little far fetched, but say you get your Thalia thoughtseize and then sugical extraction'd? You have no way of giving creatures +1/+1. This makes Falconer pretty redundant.
4. What's your plan vs sweepers?
Seeing as we run so many creatures having some board protection might be worth while. Or have you found the combination of Freebooter and Meddling Mage to be enough hand disruption? Or is some recursion (i.e. eternal witness/renegade rallier) or board protection (I.e. selfless spirit) reasonable considerations?
Would welcome your thoughts as it looks like the list is progressing well
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
Got a couple of queries about your sideboard:
1. Is a single Staticaster really worth it?
This means you need to add a land to your sideboard, which could possibly free up a better utility card? Could Orzhov Pontiff provide the solution? I appreciate that it only works when it enters the battlefield, but you already have the right colours maindeck and you're playing 4 CoCos. In theory, you could always drop Staticaster and Foundry and add 2 to the sideboard?
The land is for both Staticaster and Vithian Renegades, the latter of which is very relevant against Aether Vial decks, since we can't get down our Freebooters in time to grab it. It is possible that the land isn't needed with all the mana fixing, but the jury is still out on that. Pontiff may be a worthwhile substitute for Staticaster, but if I'm already running a small red splash, I prefer Staticaster. If anything, I'd put in a 3rd Arashin Cleric in place of the land just for extra burn protection.
2. I see you've been a big advocate of arashin cleric, but with the amount of humans in the deck, would auriok champion be a better option? This way you're less likely to get caught out if an opponent has skullcrack, as you will likely be able to keep jamming creatures, rather than relying on a one-off.
The problem with Auriok Champion is that it's harder to cast and can often be irrelevant if there aren't any follow up creatures on either side. It is awful when played later in a game, whereas Arashin Cleric will always provide value. Some burn decks also bring in stuff like Path to Exile for pro-red creatures, so I prioritize the ETB effect. I bring in my 4th Freebooter against them as well, which can be used to clear a path for Cleric. Also, having Kambal, Consul of Allocation as a secondary plan is big game here.
As for Arashin Cleric specifically, the reasons I advocate for it are:
A) Easy to cast
B) 2 mana, so can come down T2 without relying on a dork
C) 3 toughness, which means it can block Goblin Guide and a single prowess trigger on Monastery Swiftspear. Also means it is very burn resistant with any lord effect/+1 counter.
D) Consistent value at any point in the game
E) Aside from painful mana draws, landing the instant 3 lifegain can often put the game out of reach.
And let me be clear - Arashin Cleric is NOT a good card. However, it does all the things we need it to do in a very specific, generally difficult matchup (while being conveniently on-gameplan), so it gets the nod from me.
Before I forget...it's been a while since I came across this, but I'm pretty sure Skullcrack can be used before combat damage to kill an Auriok Champion, since damage can't be prevented. With that in mind, it makes the decision pretty easy for me. Cleric is less situational and more consistent value. Skullcrack will be back breaking regardless, so give me the easier to cast and more consistent card. What we really need is Kor Firewalker as a human.
3. Is Abzan falconer really worth it?
What do you bring it in against? It seems a bit to situational for my liking.... I know this scenario is a little far fetched, but say you get your Thalia thoughtseize and then sugical extraction'd? You have no way of giving creatures +1/+1. This makes Falconer pretty redundant.
I'm not sure if you checked out any of the videos I posted of my modern league, but my reasoning for Falconer is that the only time the deck struggled was when the opposing deck was able to clog up the board with 2/2 Knight tokens off of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Falconer would come in against decks that like to clog up the ground - Merfolk, Elves, many opposing GW based CoCo decks, planeswalker heavy decks etc (decks generally low on removal and with lots of ground creatures/tokens, and decks where Sin Collector is mostly irrelevant). It could also be useful against decks that try to attack us through the air like Affinity and Spirits. Not only would I never bring it in against a Thoughtseize/Surgical Extraction deck, but that would be a foolish gameplan for someone to try to take against us so I don't foresee anyone trying it; there's just too much redundancy in the deck for that to be worthwhile. If anything, they'd be much better off going after Collected Company or something along those lines. Also, those types of cards are very likely to get sniped by our disruption.
4. What's your plan vs sweepers?
Seeing as we run so many creatures having some board protection might be worth while. Or have you found the combination of Freebooter and Meddling Mage to be enough hand disruption? Or is some recursion (i.e. eternal witness/renegade rallier) or board protection (I.e. selfless spirit) reasonable considerations?
Kitesail Freebooter, Sin Collector and Meddling Mage are in the deck with sweeper protection being one of the biggest reasons. My beloved Bant Red list has always struggled against control, even with 3 Negate in the side (and other various things I have tried), and I just couldn't find a way to make the matchup favorable. It's one of the big reasons to play this new Bant Black deck over the others. However, if it is still a concern, I would recommend eternal witness or maybe even Xathrid Necromancer. But in my somewhat limited experience with this list, control players sometimes keep risky hands that heavily rely on a single sweeper in hand, which perfectly plays into our disruption package.
As for Arashin Cleric specifically, the reasons I advocate for it are:
A) Easy to cast
B) 2 mana, so can come down T2 without relying on a dork
C) 3 toughness, which means it can block Goblin Guide and a single prowess trigger on Monastery Swiftspear. Also means it is very burn resistant with any lord effect/+1 counter.
D) Consistent value at any point in the game
E) Aside from painful mana draws, landing the instant 3 lifegain can often put the game out of reach.
And I know not everyone cares, but I might add:
F) It costs $0.15 instead of $18
How often did you play the burn matchup with the list? I played it about 30 times losing about 16-20.
I've only played against burn once with this list (won 2-0) but have played against it a lot with Bant Red. You have to be a little more selective than usual with the hands you keep. What you really want is painless mana and the ability to drop an Arashin Cleric without it getting hit by Skullcrack. Those two criteria greatly improve the matchup. With this list specifically, an early Kambal also goes a long way. It's still not a great matchup but certainly winnable. Sniping burn spells with Freebooter and Collector helps a lot, but you definitely need dedicated lifegain in the 75. I don't think forge tender does much for you since its main application is Anger of the Gods, which is easily sniped anyway.
I think Forge-tender is not only for Anger but also against burn or any spot removal decks that use red like Jeskai Control. I played Kambal several times against burn and it died immediately; I personally didn't like it very much. I wonder if cards like Thalia V1.0 in the side are more flexible compared to Kambal because she is good against Burn, GDS, Storm, Valakut.
For SCG Charlotte I expect the following decks which I would like to have a sideboard against:
Storm, Burn, GDS, Eldrazi, Valakut, Affinity
The GDS matchup is positive, Affinity and Eldrazi are 50/50 and the other three are imo unfavorable matchups.
Let's think about which cards we can take out main board and which cards are good sb against these decks.
I think Forge-tender is not only for Anger but also against burn or any spot removal decks that use red like Jeskai Control.
I don't think using it against spot removal is worthwhile; with so much anti-spell hate, it seems very unnecessary. I'd rather play another threat that they have to answer instead of hoping for a random 1/1 non-human to trade 1-for-1. It doesn't put any pressure on the board and is also blocked by all of their creatures.
I played Kambal several times against burn and it died immediately; I personally didn't like it very much. I wonder if cards like Thalia V1.0 in the side are more flexible compared to Kambal because she is good against Burn, GDS, Storm, Valakut.
Even if Kambal dies immediately, you gain and drain 2 life. That isn't bad at all, and a lot better than what Thalia 1.0 will do. They'll just kill her and you gain no life at all; she's a minor speed bump in most scenarios and often very annoying for us; I cut her from all my CoCo Humans lists a while ago and haven't missed her at all. She doesn't even do much against storm since they have a ton of ways to cancel her effect. Kambal is awesome against control and Storm and you can use Meddling Mage to put the opponent in a spot where they have to take extra hits off Kambal to get him off the board. The only thing I'd really want against Valakut is a 4th Freebooter/Collector and maybe some Leyline of Sanctity. The maindeck configuration seems fine otherwise.
For SCG Charlotte I expect the following decks which I would like to have a sideboard against:
Storm, Burn, GDS, Eldrazi, Valakut, Affinity
The GDS matchup is positive, Affinity and Eldrazi are 50/50 and the other three are imo unfavorable matchups.
Burn is probably 40/60, maybe 50/50. I'm not really sure how our Valakut matchup is bad when we can constantly snipe their best cards. I haven't played that matchup, but with so many ways to cut them off of their key cards, I can't imagine it being bad.
1.) Storm:
[snip]
For me the best to board would be: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Eidolon of Rhetoric, 1 Izzet Staticaster. The big downside is that Eidolon is not very useful in other matchups (probably only good against Elves?) and it is not a human. Kambal would be an human option, but it dies to Lightning Bolt and has only another application against Burn. Ethersworn Canonist seems to die to easy to Lightning Bolt too.
I actually don't bother with Rest in Peace against Storm; it slows our clock down too much and they often win without touching the graveyard. I just apply pressure and take them off of their cost reducers and key cards with removal and disruption. I've played the matchup a few times and have yet to lose a round. In the MTGO league video playlist I posted on the last page, you can see an example there. I've only lost individual games where I've drawn poorly. Dying to Lightning Bolt isn't something we should be worrying about. They don't run many of those and a single Lord makes a lot of our creatures bolt proof. I'm totally ok with them wasting spell slots on Bolts.
Not terribly worried about Eldrazi Tron since we can keep them off of their trump cards like Oblivion Stone and All is Dust, which are the only 2 cards we usually lose to against them. Stony vs Kataki is never an easy choice, but I prefer the one that puts a body on the board, can be found with Collected Company and requires very specific cards to answer. Stony Silence is easily beaten by just attacking with creatures. My sideboard here is -2 Mayor of Avabruck -2 Anafenza, the Foremost, +2 Kataki, War's Wage +2 Vithian Renegades.
A couple of questions/comments:
- Why Eidolon of Rhetoric over Ethersworn Canonist? You mentioned that Canonist dies to Bolt, but so does Eidolon. Canonist is a bigger body and a Human, so I'm not seeing any downsides. I guess you could bring Eidolon in against Affinity, but that doesn't seem like a good idea since they can just go off before we drop it, which then puts us way behind.
- Only 1 (maybe) card that has lifegain is very risky against burn. I don't think Forge-Tender does enough and it can potentially make early mana awkward and potentially painful.
- Mirran Crusader doesn't seem necessary if the GDS matchup continues to be very good.
I have played a lot against very experienced burn and storm players. They agree that they are favored against our build. They and I think that it is wrong not to board in rip. I agree however with moth of your advices.
Valakut has nowadays multiple angles ..Titan. scapeshift. Hour of promise. Anger. From experience I know that we can't disrupt all of these plans. For example we often have to take the anger and can't take their combo piece.
I like your sideboard. However you have nothing against sweepers and rely on your disruption only?
Eidolon doesn't die to bolt. That is the reason.it is 1/4
Oh dang, for some reason I was thinking that Eidolon was a 2/1. My bad on that.
As for the sweepers, yes, I rely on my disruption for that. With the 2 Meddling Mages in the main and extra Kitesail Freebooter in the side, my list has a little bit more disruption than yours (which also applies to Valakut and other similar matchups). You set your deck up for a slightly improved creature matchup in the main board, which makes the aforementioned matchups a little tougher. It's the classic give and take, part of what makes Magic the best TCG .
If you're not a fan of Meddling Mage in the main, maybe try a 4th Freebooter? I could see a list like this being a decent compromise:
Keep Meddling Mage in the side, so you can bring it in once you know what your opponent is up do. Run a 4th Freebooter in the main for more generic, widely applicable disruption. Run extra copies of Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Sin Collector in the side to further improve their relative matchups.
I like the idea of a 5C list, I'll see how it goes. The only card I really wanna splash for is Freebooter, but I'll get some reps with Ana and see if she's really worth it. Otherwise, Sunscourge and Lyev are still on my radar.
Collector is a worse 3-drop in a main deck than Mantis, so the only remaining question is whether more mana tension is worth forcing Mantis + Freebooter (or the other way around...).
Collector is a worse 3-drop in a main deck than Mantis
On the surface, sure. But when you're getting to look at your opponent's hand in a deck with Meddling Mage, it's quite good. It also happens to help against the vast majority of the deck's main weaknesses (sweepers, combo etc).
The SB must be adjusted, less slots for combo and control I guess.
Running Anafenza and Mantis Rider is pretty bold. I tried that quite a while ago before Unclaimed Territory, so it may be more doable now. Sadly, Mantis' vigilance is a nombo with Anafenza's +1 counter ability. I'm not sure if Anafenza is worth it when you're already running Mantis Rider, but it's worth testing again. I'm also very curious about the reason to run Channeler Initiate over Avacyn's Pilgrim. Sure, the color fixing is nice, but 1 cmc vs 2 cmc is a massive difference. We want to be hitting our 3 drops on turn 2 as much as possible.
I'm pretty much just smashing together all the cards that have performed best for me in all of my testing. No idea yet how well it will work, but we'll see . When I try Anafenza, I'll take out 1 Brawler and 1 Thalia and add 2 Anafenza.
Oh dang, for some reason I was thinking that Eidolon was a 2/1. My bad on that.
To quote why Kambal is not very scary for storm: "storm bring in enough bolts, dismember efects . also kambal dies to grapeshot."
If you're not a fan of Meddling Mage in the main, maybe try a 4th Freebooter? I could see a list like this being a decent compromise
--> I like your compromise list though.
Against which other matchups do you board in Arashin Cleric?
Another thing I didn't really understand. Do you only play friendly modern leagues but no competitive modern leagues? I think the deck is in a very good shape right now and can compete with the top decks. I was just wondering (I have never played friendly leagues) how the skill level of your opponent is. We have pretty different opinions about the match percentages against storm and burn and some other matchups.
To quote why Kambal is not very scary for storm: "storm bring in enough bolts, dismember efects . also kambal dies to grapeshot."
Like I said, I'm totally fine if they want to waste slots on removal. All of our other options die to the same cards, so I'd rather have a card that stops them from going off and is useful in other matchups. We only have to hold them at bay long enough to kill them and have plenty of ways to snipe their kill spells .
The "it dies to [x]" argument is pretty weak, imo. They need to have a LOT go right for them. They'd have to stave off the early pressure, have a way to kill Kambal, have that card NOT get sniped by Freebooter/Collector/Mage AND have enough cards to go off. Good luck. *shrug*
Against which other matchups do you board in Arashin Cleric?
As for actual tiered meta decks, only Burn. But it is useful against any low-slung aggro deck. Either way, having some dedicated burn slots is not a bad thing. It's the most prominent bad matchup for the deck.
Another thing I didn't really understand. Do you only play friendly modern leagues but no competitive modern leagues? I think the deck is in a very good shape right now and can compete with the top decks. I was just wondering (I have never played friendly leagues) how the skill level of your opponent is. We have pretty different opinions about the match percentages against storm and burn and some other matchups. So I was wondering if it is because of the opponents
I definitely plan to play some Competitive leagues with it, but I was honestly more worried about how it would fare against rogue decks than the top tier decks. The first few rounds of the SCG Open are going to be chock full of rogue decks and a lot of people get knocked out during those rounds. I'd rather get reps playing against stuff I'm not expecting and learning how to read, react and adapt to such surprises. As for skill level, the average skill level on MTGO is much higher than the skill level of the average player you'll find at a local shop, so that is not a concern.
Also, I just did a couple of test rounds with the 5C list posted above and it's pretty hilarious. Playing a deck with such a fast clock and being able to check out the opponent's hand with Freebooter is quite powerful. The mana is rough though. Think I might try to fit in 1 or 2 Reflecting Pool.
Really? Brawler has done nothing but overperform for me. The amount of pressure it applies by itself is absurd, especially at just 2 cmc. I had a game not long ago where I mulled to 4, kept 2 land/2 brawler and was beating the opponent down for 10 damage after drawing a Lieutenant. It also can't be chump blocked, which is a big deal. What was it being compared to in the humans lists?
I only played it against GDS instead of Thalia V1.0. I think I didn't test it enough. Would you consider the 5C list with Mantis Rider and Brawler as strong as the disruptive list with MM?
I only played it against GDS instead of Thalia V1.0. I think I didn't test it enough.
Gotcha. I've also had success with Kari Zev, Skyship Raider at 2 cmc. Menace + a 2/1 token in a deck that already goes wide is quite good. It's easier on the mana too.
Would you consider the 5C list with Mantis Rider and Brawler as strong as the disruptive list with MM?
I've only done a couple of quick games on MTGO, so it's too early to tell. I think if anything is going to hold it back, it's the mana. However, I am very much liking the fast clock backed up with a bit of disruption, and having a larger disruption package post sideboard for the matchups where we want it. It has the heavily favored creature matchups with a sideboard plan that helps against control/burn/storm. Mantis Rider is just a beast of a card.
I agree. I have the feeling that the disruptive list is better against combo while the mantis rider list is better against creatures.
I have the feeling however that the mantis rider list might be fast enough to kill combo before they go off because the clock is just so fast. It is imo also great to coco into mantis rider pre-combat.
Maybe Reflecting Pools are the solution. Of note, in my list I also opt for 3 Avacyn's Pilgrim because I run 1 Gavony Township, which I thin is still a great card but too greedy for a 5C list.
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I'll let you know how it goes, but I feel that the matchup is fairly 50/50 ish.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Got a couple of queries about your sideboard:
1. Is a single Staticaster really worth it?
This means you need to add a land to your sideboard, which could possibly free up a better utility card? Could Orzhov Pontiff provide the solution? I appreciate that it only works when it enters the battlefield, but you already have the right colours maindeck and you're playing 4 CoCos. In theory, you could always drop Staticaster and Foundry and add 2 to the sideboard?
2. I see you've been a big advocate of arashin cleric, but with the amount of humans in the deck, would auriok champion be a better option? This way you're less likely to get caught out if an opponent has skullcrack, as you will likely be able to keep jamming creatures, rather than relying on a one-off.
3. Is Abzan falconer really worth it?
What do you bring it in against? It seems a bit to situational for my liking.... I know this scenario is a little far fetched, but say you get your Thalia thoughtseize and then sugical extraction'd? You have no way of giving creatures +1/+1. This makes Falconer pretty redundant.
4. What's your plan vs sweepers?
Seeing as we run so many creatures having some board protection might be worth while. Or have you found the combination of Freebooter and Meddling Mage to be enough hand disruption? Or is some recursion (i.e. eternal witness/renegade rallier) or board protection (I.e. selfless spirit) reasonable considerations?
Would welcome your thoughts as it looks like the list is progressing well
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
The land is for both Staticaster and Vithian Renegades, the latter of which is very relevant against Aether Vial decks, since we can't get down our Freebooters in time to grab it. It is possible that the land isn't needed with all the mana fixing, but the jury is still out on that. Pontiff may be a worthwhile substitute for Staticaster, but if I'm already running a small red splash, I prefer Staticaster. If anything, I'd put in a 3rd Arashin Cleric in place of the land just for extra burn protection.
The problem with Auriok Champion is that it's harder to cast and can often be irrelevant if there aren't any follow up creatures on either side. It is awful when played later in a game, whereas Arashin Cleric will always provide value. Some burn decks also bring in stuff like Path to Exile for pro-red creatures, so I prioritize the ETB effect. I bring in my 4th Freebooter against them as well, which can be used to clear a path for Cleric. Also, having Kambal, Consul of Allocation as a secondary plan is big game here.
As for Arashin Cleric specifically, the reasons I advocate for it are:
A) Easy to cast
B) 2 mana, so can come down T2 without relying on a dork
C) 3 toughness, which means it can block Goblin Guide and a single prowess trigger on Monastery Swiftspear. Also means it is very burn resistant with any lord effect/+1 counter.
D) Consistent value at any point in the game
E) Aside from painful mana draws, landing the instant 3 lifegain can often put the game out of reach.
And let me be clear - Arashin Cleric is NOT a good card. However, it does all the things we need it to do in a very specific, generally difficult matchup (while being conveniently on-gameplan), so it gets the nod from me.
Before I forget...it's been a while since I came across this, but I'm pretty sure Skullcrack can be used before combat damage to kill an Auriok Champion, since damage can't be prevented. With that in mind, it makes the decision pretty easy for me. Cleric is less situational and more consistent value. Skullcrack will be back breaking regardless, so give me the easier to cast and more consistent card. What we really need is Kor Firewalker as a human.
I'm not sure if you checked out any of the videos I posted of my modern league, but my reasoning for Falconer is that the only time the deck struggled was when the opposing deck was able to clog up the board with 2/2 Knight tokens off of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Falconer would come in against decks that like to clog up the ground - Merfolk, Elves, many opposing GW based CoCo decks, planeswalker heavy decks etc (decks generally low on removal and with lots of ground creatures/tokens, and decks where Sin Collector is mostly irrelevant). It could also be useful against decks that try to attack us through the air like Affinity and Spirits. Not only would I never bring it in against a Thoughtseize/Surgical Extraction deck, but that would be a foolish gameplan for someone to try to take against us so I don't foresee anyone trying it; there's just too much redundancy in the deck for that to be worthwhile. If anything, they'd be much better off going after Collected Company or something along those lines. Also, those types of cards are very likely to get sniped by our disruption.
Kitesail Freebooter, Sin Collector and Meddling Mage are in the deck with sweeper protection being one of the biggest reasons. My beloved Bant Red list has always struggled against control, even with 3 Negate in the side (and other various things I have tried), and I just couldn't find a way to make the matchup favorable. It's one of the big reasons to play this new Bant Black deck over the others. However, if it is still a concern, I would recommend eternal witness or maybe even Xathrid Necromancer. But in my somewhat limited experience with this list, control players sometimes keep risky hands that heavily rely on a single sweeper in hand, which perfectly plays into our disruption package.
It definitely is. I have very high hopes for this type of list. Hope my answers are helpful!
F) It costs $0.15 instead of $18
How do you feel against Bant Eldrazi and Skred? I think they are the bad matches here.
The side in is obviously easy, but side out looks hard. What do you cut against: Storm, Eldrazi Tron, Burn, UWx and the others Commonwealth decks?
I think Forge-tender is not only for Anger but also against burn or any spot removal decks that use red like Jeskai Control. I played Kambal several times against burn and it died immediately; I personally didn't like it very much. I wonder if cards like Thalia V1.0 in the side are more flexible compared to Kambal because she is good against Burn, GDS, Storm, Valakut.
For SCG Charlotte I expect the following decks which I would like to have a sideboard against:
Storm, Burn, GDS, Eldrazi, Valakut, Affinity
The GDS matchup is positive, Affinity and Eldrazi are 50/50 and the other three are imo unfavorable matchups.
Let's think about which cards we can take out main board and which cards are good sb against these decks.
1.) Storm:
Best cards main deck: 3 Kitesail Freebooter, 3 Sin Collector (I don't run Meddling Mages)
Sideboard options: Eidolon of the Rhetoric, Rest in Peace, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Izzet Staticaster, Meddling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist, Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Cards I consider to be taken out after game 1: 2 Anafenza, 1-2 Reflector Mage, 1-2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar. So we end up having 4-6 slots.
What they board in: 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Dismember
For me the best to board would be: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Eidolon of Rhetoric, 1 Izzet Staticaster. The big downside is that Eidolon is not very useful in other matchups (probably only good against Elves?) and it is not a human. Kambal would be an human option, but it dies to Lightning Bolt and has only another application against Burn. Ethersworn Canonist seems to die to easy to Lightning Bolt too.
2. Burn
Best cards main deck: 3 Freebooter, 3 Sin Collector, (to a lesser extent 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar)
Best sideboard cards: Burrenton Forge-Tender, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Auriok Champion, Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Arashin Cleric
What they bring in: 3 Path to Exile, something Searing Blaze or Deflecting Palm
What we can board out: 2 Anafenza, 1 Reflector Mage, 1-2 Mayor of Avabruck
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben would be useful also against Storm, Valakut, GDS, but is a problem for our own Collected Company. Burrenton Forge-tender helps against Valakut (Anger of the Gods) and Jeskai decks. Auriok Champion helps against GDS, Elves, Merfolk and Dredge. Kambal, Consul of Allocation against Storm and Arashin Cleric against other creature decks.
I am not sure which I would prefer, but I would like to dedicate 2 Slots which could be also used in other matchups.
3. Valakut
Best cards main deck: 3 Freebooter, 3 Sin Collector, 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Best sideboard options: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Aven Mindcensor, Burrenton Forge-Tender, to a lesser extent Meddling Mage (because they have multiple key cards and it is hard to name the correct one.
What we can board out: 2 Anafenza, 3-4 Reflector Mage, 2-3 Path to Exile
Aven Mindcensor is not very good in other matchups (maybe only against control and to a lesser extent against storm ). Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a human and has the most applications in other matchups. We might need Forge-Tender to be safe from Anger of the Gods, however, we also have the disruption package to help us.
4. Affinity
Best cards main deck: 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar, 4 Reflector Mage, 4 Path to Exile
Best sideboard options: Kataki, War's Wage, Stony Silence, Vithian Renegades, Izzet Staticaster
What they board in: Ghirapur Aether Grid, Whipflare, Dispatch, Etched Champion
What we can take out: 2 Anafenza, 1-2 Mayor, 3 Sin Collector
I personally like Stony Silence over Kathaki, however it isn't a creature we can coco into, though, it might be too late for a Coco against Affinity sometimes. Both cards are also good against Lantern Control while Stony Silence is better against Eldrazi Tron.
Concluding these matchups I think a sideboard could look like:
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Auriok Champion or Kambal, Consul of Allocation or Mirran Crusader
Let me know what you think!
I don't think using it against spot removal is worthwhile; with so much anti-spell hate, it seems very unnecessary. I'd rather play another threat that they have to answer instead of hoping for a random 1/1 non-human to trade 1-for-1. It doesn't put any pressure on the board and is also blocked by all of their creatures.
Even if Kambal dies immediately, you gain and drain 2 life. That isn't bad at all, and a lot better than what Thalia 1.0 will do. They'll just kill her and you gain no life at all; she's a minor speed bump in most scenarios and often very annoying for us; I cut her from all my CoCo Humans lists a while ago and haven't missed her at all. She doesn't even do much against storm since they have a ton of ways to cancel her effect. Kambal is awesome against control and Storm and you can use Meddling Mage to put the opponent in a spot where they have to take extra hits off Kambal to get him off the board. The only thing I'd really want against Valakut is a 4th Freebooter/Collector and maybe some Leyline of Sanctity. The maindeck configuration seems fine otherwise.
Burn is probably 40/60, maybe 50/50. I'm not really sure how our Valakut matchup is bad when we can constantly snipe their best cards. I haven't played that matchup, but with so many ways to cut them off of their key cards, I can't imagine it being bad.
I actually don't bother with Rest in Peace against Storm; it slows our clock down too much and they often win without touching the graveyard. I just apply pressure and take them off of their cost reducers and key cards with removal and disruption. I've played the matchup a few times and have yet to lose a round. In the MTGO league video playlist I posted on the last page, you can see an example there. I've only lost individual games where I've drawn poorly. Dying to Lightning Bolt isn't something we should be worrying about. They don't run many of those and a single Lord makes a lot of our creatures bolt proof. I'm totally ok with them wasting spell slots on Bolts.
My sideboard against Storm is -1 Mayor of Avabruck +1 Kitesail Freebooter, -2 Anafenza, the Foremost +2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation. Could also take out the 2nd Mayor instead of the 2nd Anafenza if preferred, but the lord effect is nice against bolt.
Thalia just provides a very minor speed bump, only useful if they're stuck on 1 land or something. We *NEED* lifegain against burn. In my opinion, Arashin Cleric, Auriok Champion and Kambal, Consul of Allocation are the only creature options here and Leyline of Sanctity being the main non-creature option, which is also useful against Valakut. My sideboard plan for burn is -2 Mayor of Avabruck +2 Arashin Cleric, -2 Anafenza, the Foremost +2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation, -1 Path to Exile +1 Kitesail Freebooter.
My sideboard plan here is -2 Path to Exile -1 Reflector Mage, +1 Kitesail Freebooter +2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation. I would not take out Anafenza, the Foremost against an Anger of the Gods deck; that's one of the big reasons to run Anafenza. Don't forget that Meddling Mage gets better with the extra Freebooter.
Not terribly worried about Eldrazi Tron since we can keep them off of their trump cards like Oblivion Stone and All is Dust, which are the only 2 cards we usually lose to against them. Stony vs Kataki is never an easy choice, but I prefer the one that puts a body on the board, can be found with Collected Company and requires very specific cards to answer. Stony Silence is easily beaten by just attacking with creatures. My sideboard here is -2 Mayor of Avabruck -2 Anafenza, the Foremost, +2 Kataki, War's Wage +2 Vithian Renegades.
A couple of questions/comments:
- Why Eidolon of Rhetoric over Ethersworn Canonist? You mentioned that Canonist dies to Bolt, but so does Eidolon. Canonist is a bigger body and a Human, so I'm not seeing any downsides. I guess you could bring Eidolon in against Affinity, but that doesn't seem like a good idea since they can just go off before we drop it, which then puts us way behind.
- Only 1 (maybe) card that has lifegain is very risky against burn. I don't think Forge-Tender does enough and it can potentially make early mana awkward and potentially painful.
- Mirran Crusader doesn't seem necessary if the GDS matchup continues to be very good.
These would be my top sideboard considerations. The exact mix depends on mainboard configurations and biggest concerns -
Rest in Peace - Generic graveyard hate for Dredge/Living End.
Vithian Renegades - Aether Vial/Ensnaring Bridge sniper, extra removal for Affinity.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation - Storm/Burn/Control/Lantern
Leyline of Sanctity - Burn/Valakut. Would want at least 3 in the sideboard.
Kitesail Freebooter - Burn/Valakut/Control/Lantern
Sin Collector - Burn/Valakut/Control
Abzan Falconer - ground stall creature matchups. Elves/Merfolk/GW-based CoCo
Arashin Cleric - Burn/Various super fast aggro
Izzet Staticaster - Dredge/Anything that relies heavily on X/1s (ie tokens, various goblin/aggro decks)
Kataki, War's Wage - Affinity/Lantern
Auriok Champion - Burn/GDS?
My exact configuration right now is:
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Abzan Falconer
3 Arashin Cleric
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kataki, War's Wage
Valakut has nowadays multiple angles ..Titan. scapeshift. Hour of promise. Anger. From experience I know that we can't disrupt all of these plans. For example we often have to take the anger and can't take their combo piece.
I like your sideboard. However you have nothing against sweepers and rely on your disruption only?
Eidolon doesn't die to bolt. That is the reason.it is 1/4
As for the sweepers, yes, I rely on my disruption for that. With the 2 Meddling Mages in the main and extra Kitesail Freebooter in the side, my list has a little bit more disruption than yours (which also applies to Valakut and other similar matchups). You set your deck up for a slightly improved creature matchup in the main board, which makes the aforementioned matchups a little tougher. It's the classic give and take, part of what makes Magic the best TCG .
If you're not a fan of Meddling Mage in the main, maybe try a 4th Freebooter? I could see a list like this being a decent compromise:
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Sin Collector
4 Reflector Mage
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Arashin Cleric
2 Meddling Mage
Keep Meddling Mage in the side, so you can bring it in once you know what your opponent is up do. Run a 4th Freebooter in the main for more generic, widely applicable disruption. Run extra copies of Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Sin Collector in the side to further improve their relative matchups.
Collector is a worse 3-drop in a main deck than Mantis, so the only remaining question is whether more mana tension is worth forcing Mantis + Freebooter (or the other way around...).
4 Path to exile
4 Mantis Rider
4 Reflector Mage
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Meddling Mage
2 Channeler Initiate
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Forest
1 Plains
The SB must be adjusted, less slots for combo and control I guess.
On the surface, sure. But when you're getting to look at your opponent's hand in a deck with Meddling Mage, it's quite good. It also happens to help against the vast majority of the deck's main weaknesses (sweepers, combo etc).
This is something I'm looking into as well, but it's difficult to pull the deck in too many different directions.
Running Anafenza and Mantis Rider is pretty bold. I tried that quite a while ago before Unclaimed Territory, so it may be more doable now. Sadly, Mantis' vigilance is a nombo with Anafenza's +1 counter ability. I'm not sure if Anafenza is worth it when you're already running Mantis Rider, but it's worth testing again. I'm also very curious about the reason to run Channeler Initiate over Avacyn's Pilgrim. Sure, the color fixing is nice, but 1 cmc vs 2 cmc is a massive difference. We want to be hitting our 3 drops on turn 2 as much as possible.
My 5 color list looks like this:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Voltaic Brawler
3 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sin Collector
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
I'm pretty much just smashing together all the cards that have performed best for me in all of my testing. No idea yet how well it will work, but we'll see . When I try Anafenza, I'll take out 1 Brawler and 1 Thalia and add 2 Anafenza.
To quote why Kambal is not very scary for storm: "storm bring in enough bolts, dismember efects . also kambal dies to grapeshot."
--> I like your compromise list though.
Against which other matchups do you board in Arashin Cleric?
Another thing I didn't really understand. Do you only play friendly modern leagues but no competitive modern leagues? I think the deck is in a very good shape right now and can compete with the top decks. I was just wondering (I have never played friendly leagues) how the skill level of your opponent is. We have pretty different opinions about the match percentages against storm and burn and some other matchups.
Like I said, I'm totally fine if they want to waste slots on removal. All of our other options die to the same cards, so I'd rather have a card that stops them from going off and is useful in other matchups. We only have to hold them at bay long enough to kill them and have plenty of ways to snipe their kill spells .
The "it dies to [x]" argument is pretty weak, imo. They need to have a LOT go right for them. They'd have to stave off the early pressure, have a way to kill Kambal, have that card NOT get sniped by Freebooter/Collector/Mage AND have enough cards to go off. Good luck. *shrug*
As for actual tiered meta decks, only Burn. But it is useful against any low-slung aggro deck. Either way, having some dedicated burn slots is not a bad thing. It's the most prominent bad matchup for the deck.
I definitely plan to play some Competitive leagues with it, but I was honestly more worried about how it would fare against rogue decks than the top tier decks. The first few rounds of the SCG Open are going to be chock full of rogue decks and a lot of people get knocked out during those rounds. I'd rather get reps playing against stuff I'm not expecting and learning how to read, react and adapt to such surprises. As for skill level, the average skill level on MTGO is much higher than the skill level of the average player you'll find at a local shop, so that is not a concern.
Also, I just did a couple of test rounds with the 5C list posted above and it's pretty hilarious. Playing a deck with such a fast clock and being able to check out the opponent's hand with Freebooter is quite powerful. The mana is rough though. Think I might try to fit in 1 or 2 Reflecting Pool.
In addition, did you ever consider Dreamstealer or Honored Crop-Captain?
Gotcha. I've also had success with Kari Zev, Skyship Raider at 2 cmc. Menace + a 2/1 token in a deck that already goes wide is quite good. It's easier on the mana too.
I've only done a couple of quick games on MTGO, so it's too early to tell. I think if anything is going to hold it back, it's the mana. However, I am very much liking the fast clock backed up with a bit of disruption, and having a larger disruption package post sideboard for the matchups where we want it. It has the heavily favored creature matchups with a sideboard plan that helps against control/burn/storm. Mantis Rider is just a beast of a card.
I have the feeling however that the mantis rider list might be fast enough to kill combo before they go off because the clock is just so fast. It is imo also great to coco into mantis rider pre-combat.
Maybe Reflecting Pools are the solution. Of note, in my list I also opt for 3 Avacyn's Pilgrim because I run 1 Gavony Township, which I thin is still a great card but too greedy for a 5C list.