[quote from="polymorpher »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/769652-modern-humans?comment=565"]What do you think about playing Mantis Rider instead of Anafenza or a one of Abzan Falconer?
This! I ran Bant Black Humans at GP Birmingham, and everytime I played my singleton Anafenza, she got a reaction from my opponents, usually something like "Yeah, sure... wait, what does she do again? Oh, cool... and she's a 4/4?!". I was never unhappy to see her.
Yeah, I have been a big Anafenza fan since I first started playing with Abzan based Humans lists. She is everything the humans deck wants: above-the-curve body, grows other creatures when attacking and even has some relevant graveyard hate tacked on. It's never a bad card in any matchup and at its best is a game ender. My personal opinion is that it's a mistake to not run at least 2 in a list that easily supports her colors. The Legendary downside is the only part I dislike.
Your deck looks interesting, I like the idea of a proactive disruption deck, speaking as someone who gets punished for risky keeps myself this seems like a great way to disrupt an opponent, whilst building a Humans beat down. I also like that it cleans up your sideboard into very clear options that support your gameplan or address specific matchups. Plus I just miss Kambal and Sin Collector in my current Bant Red Human Knightfall list!
The thing I have been finding is that, in a lot of our tougher matchups, they will often keep a hand that is almost zero action aside from the 1 card that kills us (ie Supreme Verdict). A well timed Freebooter or Sin Collector can destroy that hope quickly.
Also, even though I have not yet had a situation where I couldn't hit anything with Freebooter or Collector, I find the hand information to be very relevant. Again I'll use UW control as an example, but knowing when I do and don't have to play around sweepers and removal is huge. That same information makes Meddling Mage very good.
I will give your configuration a try. However, I think we don't need the red in the sideboard (including the land). Since your maindeck is very disruptive already I think the focus of your sideboard should go a little bit more towards the very small aggressive creature decks. Therefore, I think you should play 2 Orzhov Pontiff and cutting the Izzet staticaster and the land. Even though no human, I would prefer Reclamation Sage over Vithian Renegades but if you want them I think you can still keep them without adding the additional stomping ground in the side. I personally also prefer Stony Silence instead of Kathaki because it is acceptable to good in the Eldrazi tron matchup.
It's possible that the red isn't needed, but I felt that the small splash was mostly a drop in the bucket with the addition of Unclaimed Territory in the mana base, and those two creatures in particular were proving to be very good in my Bant Red build. A few other things to note:
Small creature decks have not been a problem for me with any version of CoCo Humans. Our creatures quickly get too big for them to bust through, and Path to Exile and Reflector Mage keep the board in check. Post board, we have Arashin Cleric as a solid early blocker and lifegain if needed. The only "small creature deck" that is a problem is burn, but this version of the deck has way more tools to fight it and it seems much more winnable. Izzet Staticaster is great since it has flash and its ability is reusable for as long as it's alive, which is why I prefer it over Pontiff.
As for Vithian Renegades vs Reclamation Sage, there are a few things to talk about. Sage is harder to cast in a 4x Cavern of Souls, 4x Unclaimed Territory deck. It's a 2/1 body that doesn't grow vs a 3/2 body that does grow (not counting Anafenza triggers). It also doesn't grow any existing Champs of Lieutenants. There really aren't many enchantments we need to hit; those that we can hit can also be taken care of with Kitesail Freebooter, which I added a 4th of in the sideboard since yesterday, or Meddling Mage. Vithian Renegades is mostly used for sniping Aether Vial, since that usually comes down before we can grab it with a Freebooter or Mage. It's also used for Affinity, which is a matchup where enchantment removal is not necessary. So at this moment, enchantments aren't a concern, so I'll take the bigger body and all the synergies.
Stony Silence vs Kataki, War's Wage is always an interesting discussion. In the case of this deck, the only matchup I need Kataki for is Affinity. If Kataki sticks, it's nearly impossible to lose. Meanwhile, I have seen plenty of games where Affinity wins through Stony Silence without much issue. Yes, Kataki can be killed, but we can at least find a 2nd one with CoCo and we have other artifact removal to hit, so it's not the end of the world. As for Eldrazi Tron, there isn't much in that deck I'm afraid of. The main things I want to stop are Oblivion Stone and All is Dust, which the built in disruption package easily takes care of. I don't have much interest in vastly slowing down my on-board pressure by playing an enchantment on T2.
In summary, to WanganMidnight's point, the disrution package of this deck allows us to be very specific with our sideboard cards, so we can focus on silver bullets for specific matchups and play less flexible cards with more synergy. These are obviously just my opinions and some food for thought on a few subjects. The best way to find out is to test it all out for yourself and see what you like!
a few questions about how to address certain hate:
how do we deal with lantern control? kataki + vithian renegades may be enough, but Ensnaring Bridge is always a bit concerning
how do we deal with a resolved Blood Moon? we're still a 5c deck.. maybe it's correct to still keep a rec sage, a war priest of thune or a fracturing gust? Obviously freebooter and meddling mage are already answers to that particular threat.
how to deal with bogles? i like kitesail freebooter/meddling mage for early hand disruption and champion of the parish to race, but the other cards are not that useful. Maybe Kambal, consul of allocation to tax all their spells? I'd also like something like runed halo but the WW cost is pretty harsh
I'll try to help where I can.
1. I have never played against Lantern Control with Humans, but my guess is that this is the type of deck that is going to have a good matchup vs. us. You can add stuff like Ancient Grudge and Kataki, War's Wage to the SB to go with the Stony Silences (or up the Stony Silences), but between their targeted discard, Abrupt Decay, and SB Nature's Claim, it's going to be an uphill battle for Humans. Maybe try to get lucky with destroying Bridge and Surgical Extraction? It seems like a 1 in a million...
2. Blood Moon can be rough. The only thing I can say, at least for my version, is to fetch the Plains and Forest right away. These allow me to cast my White creatures and Collected Company/mana dorks. It will be tough, but if they don't have enough pressure, we can still win, despite being slowed down.
3. I played a LOT of Bogles years ago. This is just the type of deck that Bogles should beat. I don't feel there's much you can do about it. If you are super worried about it, you can put some number of Ray of Revelation in your SB, but that will definitely dilute it. Side in Meddling Mage, hoping to name a lifelink Aura or Daybreak Coronet (lifelink AND vigilance). I wouldn't put in Kambal. The game will come down to resources, not life. They have way too much life gain. I've had many an opponent think they were going to race and it never ended in their favor unless I drew only 3 or fewer Auras in a long game.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
how do we deal with lantern control? kataki + vithian renegades may be enough, but Ensnaring Bridge is always a bit concerning
But that's just the thing - Ensnaring Bridge is the only card they have that is remotely scary. Snipe it with Freebooter, name it with Meddling Mage or destroy it with Renegades and they don't have anything else. Also, Noble Hierarch can sneak in the last few points of damage when all else fails.
how do we deal with a resolved Blood Moon? we're still a 5c deck.. maybe it's correct to still keep a rec sage, a war priest of thune or a fracturing gust? Obviously freebooter and meddling mage are already answers to that particular threat.
Same as above - snipe it with Freebooter or Meddling Mage. Try to fetch early basics, with Forest generally being the most important. If you're super worried about it after it resolves, I suggest something like War Priest of Thune (or Reclamation Sage if sideboard slots are in short supply).
how to deal with bogles? i like kitesail freebooter/meddling mage for early hand disruption and champion of the parish to race, but the other cards are not that useful. Maybe Kambal, consul of allocation to tax all their spells? I'd also like something like runed halo but the WW cost is pretty harsh
Bogles is tough, but Freebooter/Mage is the main plan with the Bant Black list. It's probably the list with the best Bogles matchup, but I imagine it's still not great. Kambal isn't a card to lean on in the matchup, but I think siding out Sin Collector for it would be an upgrade. It is one of the reasons I've added a 4th Freebooter to the sideboard. I've also had luck with the Bant Red build by just beating them to death with Mantis Rider and Voltaic Brawler before they've had a chance to establish anything too large. I wouldn't try Runed Halo, though. Blessed Alliance would be much better, and has crossover applications in other matchups like burn (and potential hilarity against Death's Shadow decks).
Dropping blue has made my deck far more reliable in the Blood Moon matches. I have made a few tweaks top the manabase to make this happen, Verdant Catacombs instead of Windswept Heath.
Fetching my three basics and trying to get rid of Blood Moon as early as possible with hand disruption is the best way. If it does resolve, it's only a minor annoiance, and usually a loss of turn three for the opponent.
Dropping blue has made my deck far more reliable in the Blood Moon matches. I have made a few tweaks top the manabase to make this happen, Verdant Catacombs instead of Windswept Heath.
Fetching my three basics and trying to get rid of Blood Moon as early as possible with hand disruption is the best way. If it does resolve, it's only a minor annoiance, and usually a loss of turn three for the opponent.
The issue I have with dropping blue is that creature matchups get considerably worse and sideboarding gets tougher since you can't lean on Reflector Mage and cut Path to Exile. Reflector Mage is what I consider to be the most important non-core creature (Champ/Lieutenant/Noble) in any CoCo Humans list. I'm ok taking a slightly higher risk against Blood Moon in order to have far better matchups and sideboarding across pretty much everything else.
Also, just as a heads up, I streamed some Modern Friendly League matches on twitch last night with the new Bant Black deck (twitch.tv/kingcars - should be available in the Videos section). I made a couple of egregious punts, one of which cost me a round, but both were due to interactions I wasn't thinking about or fully aware of, so it was a great learning experience for me and hopefully a good lesson for those watching as well. I also probably shouldn't have been playing so late at night, but oh well haha. But after 3 matches, the deck is 2-1 and I'm hoping to finish off strong tonight. I apologize for the low volume audio and the subpar video quality - both should be fixed for tonight's stream. Once the league is over, I'll be sure to clip out each round and post them to my Youtube channel, which is under the same name. I also may be streaming the Bant Red list as well so we can get some good side by side comparisons.
a few questions about how to address certain hate:
how do we deal with lantern control? kataki + vithian renegades may be enough, but Ensnaring Bridge is always a bit concerning
how do we deal with a resolved Blood Moon? we're still a 5c deck.. maybe it's correct to still keep a rec sage, a war priest of thune or a fracturing gust? Obviously freebooter and meddling mage are already answers to that particular threat.
how to deal with bogles? i like kitesail freebooter/meddling mage for early hand disruption and champion of the parish to race, but the other cards are not that useful. Maybe Kambal, consul of allocation to tax all their spells? I'd also like something like runed halo but the WW cost is pretty harsh
I think what I have learnt is that in Modern you cannot hope to answer every deck's best play, and you have to pick your battles. Obviously this is easier for paper magic as you can build up an idea of your local meta and sideboard accordingly, or consider the type of event you're playing in - FNM and online league will be more varied and people will play their pet decks more than in a GP or PPTQ where you might want to tweak in favour of 'the best' or the more established decks.
I'm loathe to give up sideboard slots up to fight other 'fair' creature decks, as if we can't win those then we're playing the wrong deck. In an open tournament environment I think we need to sideboard against the more unfair/solitaire style decks and the decks that demand specific answers, and be aware that our opponent is usually reaching for their removal and boardwipes against us. Kingcar's new list is interesting because it appears to give us more disruption to take away our opponent's powerful cards, whilst putting bodies on the board, which is kind of what I find myself siding into most games anyway.
There are obviously specific answers too all the above decks/cards, but I think Blood Moon would be the most common concern of the three, and the one I definitely agree with - we have a greedy mana base, and I think we should expect to play against a Blood Moon in a big tournament. People have pointed out how to alter your play to respect a possible Blood Moon, and most/all sideboards should pack Reclamation Sage/Qasali Pridemage/Vithian Renegades & War Priest to answer artifacts/enchantments. Some lists also run Negate/Unified Will, and I also run Spell Queller as my generic 'catch-all' for stuff I don't like/expect. Don't forget you can Path your creatures to get a basic land to untap with on your next turn, it hurts, but I pathed a Champion of the Parish to fetch basic Forest last week, untapped and played CoCo, hit 2 Noble Hierarchs and dug myself out from under a Blood Moon!
An interesting card I've seen showing up in lists is Gideon's Intervention, sort of an expensive Runed Halo that I use in standard, but it does work against Valakut and whichever creature the Bogles player has put the most stuff onto. Possibly too slow versus Lantern control, but you could sneak it out Turn 3 with a mana dork and name Bridge, although that'd be a game where I'd be bringing in my Quellers and Negates.
Hey guys, just wanted to provide a quick update. Just finished up a friendly Modern league at 4-1, despite some pretty embarrassingly subpar play. The deck certainly proved to be versatile and resilient, however, and I think a lot of lessons can be learned from these videos. I'm definitely putting Eternal Witness back in the sideboard instead of Mirran Crusader. Anyways, here is a YouTube playlist of the games (note: Games 1-3 did not have optimal video/audio)
VS Bogles, a Mirran Crusader opener is one way to make me feel confident. I won many games with him, both by attacking or stalling their non-evasive attacker. Engineered Explosives (also good VS Affi, Chord decks, Tribal decks,...) has been a latest fav, at least before Territory got printed. I think it's still good now, we cast it for 1 and 3 for the most part.
However I agree that ways to deal with enchantments are needed. Moon is one. PH. Unlife another. Incidentally it'll help VS Bogles. Some enchantments are way stronger plays on their side than playing a Human that won't deal with it on our side (like Renegades that we wouldn't bring in against Moon / Bogles anyway). It's less important to have a Human in the SB than an efficient answer to problematic situations. Kitesail Freebooter seems good enough so we don't need either Renegades or Rec Sage. Meddling Mage is probably a better card now.
Lantern Control is a favorable MU post-SB for me, as weird as it may sound for some. There are many games where they won't draw a Bridge, and if they do, we can build a massive board that will win on the spot once we get the answer. The thing though is to play Stony Silence along that plan. It's the card of choice if the expected meta has that MU in sight. Their best counter-plan in that configuration is a wrath like Damnation or Bontu's Last Reckoning.
It's cool to see the discussion live again anyway. Enjoy your decks !
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
So I played kingcars list at a local modern tournament and went 5-0 ($90 prize) ;). I played the following list: The mana base and the sideboard are slightly different
Game 1: Counters Company 2-0
Game 2: Merfolk 2-1 (that was extremely difficult and I believe that this build is unfavored in this matchup. This is why I think some changes have to be done.
Game 3: Grixis Death Shadow 2-0
Game 4: Bant Knightfall 2-0
Game 5: Lantern Control 2-0 (Freebooter into Meddling Mage was insane here in Game 1, because he had 3 Bridges in hand).
Summary: While the hand-disruption package was acceptable to good, I think the Meddling Mages are not good enough for the main. While they were winning me Game 1 against Lantern, I didn't have any useful application for them in the other matchups. It is extremely difficult to hit something in the dark. In addition, I think that 6 manadorks is not enough. The deck lives from explosives starts and even the disruptive package wants to be accelerated in. Anafenza turned out to be really good. However, I want to have 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar to improve certain creature matchups.
I would propose the following maindeck changes:
-2 Meddling Mage
-1 Anafenza ( I prefer a 2/2 legendary creature ratio over 3 Anafenza)
+1 Avacyn's Pilgrim (improves speed)
+2 Thalia V2.0 (improves creature and some greedy manabases matchups)
Also the sideboard needs some adaption against creature decks. The question is if I want Meddling Mage in the side or more specific hate.
Game 1: Counters Company 2-0
Game 2: Merfolk 2-1 (that was extremely difficult and I believe that this build is unfavored in this matchup. This is why I think some changes have to be done.
Game 3: Grixis Death Shadow 2-0
Game 4: Bant Knightfall 2-0
Game 5: Lantern Control 2-0 (Freebooter into Meddling Mage was insane here in Game 1, because he had 3 Bridges in hand).
A couple of questions: What exactly was difficult about the Merfolk matchup? I would imagine that keeping them off of Spreading Seas would be a huge boon since their creatures generally can't compete pound for pound, outside of their ultra fast nut draws. And how did the GDS matchup feel? Both are matchups I have yet to encounter with my list.
Summary: While the hand-disruption package was acceptable to good, I think the Meddling Mages are not good enough for the main. While they were winning me Game 1 against Lantern, I didn't have any useful application for them in the other matchups. It is extremely difficult to hit something in the dark.
What I have found with Meddling Mage is that it requires a very good knowledge of the format and a keen awareness of your opponent's outs/most important draws. In the videos I posted, there were several times where Mage was bad because I made it bad. But with careful piloting, I think it's still a good card. It is tough playing it before any Freebooters/Collectors/Reflector Mages, but I've still found the lockout plan to be worthwhile. I just need to get better at it. My only other concern would be overloading the deck with 3 drops - even with the 7th mana dork, the deck will be even more reliant on a T1 dork. When I ran 8 dorks in the 3 drop heavy Bant build, it was absurdly slow. Don't underestimate the power of a good curve.
Anafenza turned out to be really good. However, I want to have 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar to improve certain creature matchups.
I'm not sure Thalia 2.0 is the go-to card if you're having issues against something like Merfolk. It's not like their creatures have haste and most of their lands are basics. I'd recommend going for a flyer - Mantis Rider has been great for me against Merfolk and other various creature matchups in the Bant red build, and should be castable with the mana base and maybe fitting in a Sacred Foundry. If you want to keep the mana base more stable, maybe Lyev Skyknight or Abzan Falcomer? I'm not a big fan of either, but they could provide enough evasion to improve these matchups. This may just be a case where not all the matchups are going to be great, so you have to pick your battles. The Bant Red list is fantastic against Merfolk, but is much worse against a lot of the matchups that the Bant black list is great at (Ad Nauseum, especially G1, being a great example).
The blue splash for Reflector Mage seems easier with this manabase, i.e. with the addition of Unclaimed Territory.
I'm a fan of Big Thalia and I would definitely include her. Also i would pick the fourth Kitesail Freebooter over Avacyn's Pilgrim to free up another sideboard slot. Worship would be my pick.
A couple of questions: What exactly was difficult about the Merfolk matchup? And how did the GDS matchup feel? Both are matchups I have yet to encounter with my list.
--> In my opinion this matchup is a race in which it can be very important to tap their creatures and prevent them from blocking (that is why I like Thalia 2.0 or Abzan Falconer). Especially turns 4-5. I just think with your build you have a ton of dead cards against them 3 sin collector, 3 freebooter, 2 meddling mage and they just run over you. A mana dork into 3drop into two 2-drops makes the race much easier compared to a steady curve 1,2,3.
The GDS matchup is almost an auto-win. I have played the matchup like 20 times now and never lost.
What I have found with Meddling Mage is that it requires a very good knowledge of the format and a keen awareness of your opponent's outs/most important draws. In the videos I posted, there were several times where Mage was bad because I made it bad. But with careful piloting, I think it's still a good card. It is tough playing it before any Freebooters/Collectors/Reflector Mages, but I've still found the lockout plan to be worthwhile. I just need to get better at it. My only other concern would be overloading the deck with 3 drops - even with the 7th mana dork, the deck will be even more reliant on a T1 dork. When I ran 8 dorks in the 3 drop heavy Bant build, it was absurdly slow. Don't underestimate the power of a good curve.
I agree that Meddling Mage can be good. But even if you know the meta (which I do), it is almost useless if you have to play it before you play a freebooter or a sin collector and even then they have a turn to response and play the card. For example, what do you name blind against Valakut decks? Sure there are decks like Ad nauseam where MM is great ..but to be honest..who is still playing AD nauseam? I rather have stronger creatures compared to certain matchups that I don't face very often.
I'm not sure Thalia 2.0 is the go-to card if you're having issues against something like Merfolk. It's not like their creatures have haste and most of their lands are basics. I'd recommend going for a flyer - Mantis Rider has been great for me against Merfolk and other various creature matchups in the Bant red build, and should be castable with the mana base and maybe fitting in a Sacred Foundry. If you want to keep the mana base more stable, maybe Lyev Skyknight or Abzan Falcomer? I'm not a big fan of either, but they could provide enough evasion to improve these matchups. This may just be a case where not all the matchups are going to be great, so you have to pick your battles. The Bant Red list is fantastic against Merfolk, but is much worse against a lot of the matchups that the Bant black list is great at (Ad Nauseum, especially G1, being a great example).
I am not sure abouth Thalia 2.0 either but I think it is one of the best options without being too risky with the mana. Abzan Falconer was always great for me and won me a lot of games against creature decks (actually no one ever removed it), because these decks are often short on removal. I took it out after your removal argument, but I might take it back in. I just think it is less impressive compared to Thalia 2.0
A couple of questions: What exactly was difficult about the Merfolk matchup? And how did the GDS matchup feel? Both are matchups I have yet to encounter with my list.
--> In my opinion this matchup is a race in which it can be very important to tap their creatures and prevent them from blocking (that is why I like Thalia 2.0 or Abzan Falconer). Especially turns 4-5. I just think with your build you have a ton of dead cards against them 3 sin collector, 3 freebooter, 2 meddling mage and they just run over you. A mana dork into 3drop into two 2-drops makes the race much easier compared to a steady curve 1,2,3.
Yeah I can see that. Though Meddling Mage and Freebooter can hit Spreading Seas, which is their scariest card imo, and using Renegades to take them off of Vial is big as well.
I agree that Meddling Mage can be good. But even if you know the meta (which I do), it is almost useless if you have to play it before you play a freebooter or a sin collector and even then they have a turn to response and play the card. For example, what do you name blind against Valakut decks? Sure there are decks like Ad nauseam where MM is great ..but to be honest..who is still playing AD nauseam? I rather have stronger creatures compared to certain matchups that I don't face very often.
Ad Nauseum is still pretty common on MTGO, so I gotta be prepared for it. Against Valakut, you could name a few things. Anger of the Gods, Through the Breach, Scapeshift, or even Sakura-Tribe Elder if you're on the play. Naming Search For Tomorrow could be hilarious if they suspend one on T1. It would be tough before knowing exactly which version you're up against, but would be very good once you figure it out.
As for having stronger creatures, unfortunately there aren't many good options in Bant Black at 2 cmc, which is one of the reasons to play the Bant Red list. Duskwatch Recruiter would probably be the next best choice there. The only worthwhile adjustments to make would be what you did and add more 3 drops, but I'd be reluctant to make the deck too reliant on a T1 dork A) Being in your opener and B) living till turn 2. If neither of those criteria are met, you're stuck with an even slower deck than before. Consistently being able to start on turn 2 when needed is very important. Meddling Mage not only allows you to do that, but also gives you a chance to interact with your opponent's gameplan. You won't always hit their gameplan, but the chance of it is still worthwhile and better than other 2 cmc options that I'm aware of.
I am not sure abouth Thalia 2.0 either but I think it is one of the best options without being too risky with the mana. Abzan Falconer was always great for me and won me a lot of games against creature decks (actually no one ever removed it), because these decks are often short on removal. I took it out after your removal argument, but I might take it back in. I just think it is less impressive compared to Thalia 2.0
That's fair. Merfolk is pretty light on removal, so Falconer could be good there. I would probably sideboard it though. Thalia is definitely better maindeck if that's what you're wanting.
In my suggestions what to cut and replace I basically cut two 2-drops for a manadork and one additional 3-drop. I believe that that evens out and has more potential to make it faster. I will test both versions
Sounds good! I'm hoping to stream some more leagues with the deck over the weekend. I definitely feel like we're onto something with this list. The 1 round I lost in the friendly league (which was mostly due to my misplay) is so far my only round lost of the ~15-20 I have played so far. The matchups across the board seem to be, on average, the best and most versatile of all the Humans lists I have tried, even my beloved Bant Red. Some minor tweaking and tuning and we could have ourselves a legit contender.
As a random sidenote, I do want to playtest Abzan Falconer in the sideboard. The only real struggle I had at times was pushing through damage during board stalls, as evidenced in the first round of the league I posted. It even has synergy with Anafenza's ability to spread counters, which is nice. We can use Freebooter/Meddling Mage to protect it from spot removal too.
I decided to play in SCG Charlotte next Saturday with Humans. I just have to think which sideboard against an open field. Any suggestions?
I probably won't run the meddling mages main and replace them with 1 avacyn pilgrim and a thalia V2.0. Tested it yesterday against Merfolk and Burn. Against Merfolk I won all games. Against burn I struggled a lot. I still need a better sideboard against burn. I play 2 Forge-tenders but not this lifegain Human.
I use Arashin Cleric and Kambal against burn. Between those and the extra Freebooter in the side, I've been able to stave burn off long enough to stabilize. I'm actually thinking about playing the deck at Charlotte next week as well, but I have conflicting plans at the moment. If I don't make it, all I ask for is a quick shoutout if you get a deck tech or something hahaha . My current list:
My sideboard is tuned for a wide open meta since MTGO modern is basically the wild west for all sorts of rogue decks. I've yet to come across a deck I didn't have answers for.
How often did you play the burn matchup with the list? I played it about 30 times losing about 16-20.
I've only played against burn once with this list (won 2-0) but have played against it a lot with Bant Red. You have to be a little more selective than usual with the hands you keep. What you really want is painless mana and the ability to drop an Arashin Cleric without it getting hit by Skullcrack. Those two criteria greatly improve the matchup. With this list specifically, an early Kambal also goes a long way. It's still not a great matchup but certainly winnable. Sniping burn spells with Freebooter and Collector helps a lot, but you definitely need dedicated lifegain in the 75. I don't think forge tender does much for you since its main application is Anger of the Gods, which is easily sniped anyway.
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Yeah, I have been a big Anafenza fan since I first started playing with Abzan based Humans lists. She is everything the humans deck wants: above-the-curve body, grows other creatures when attacking and even has some relevant graveyard hate tacked on. It's never a bad card in any matchup and at its best is a game ender. My personal opinion is that it's a mistake to not run at least 2 in a list that easily supports her colors. The Legendary downside is the only part I dislike.
The thing I have been finding is that, in a lot of our tougher matchups, they will often keep a hand that is almost zero action aside from the 1 card that kills us (ie Supreme Verdict). A well timed Freebooter or Sin Collector can destroy that hope quickly.
Also, even though I have not yet had a situation where I couldn't hit anything with Freebooter or Collector, I find the hand information to be very relevant. Again I'll use UW control as an example, but knowing when I do and don't have to play around sweepers and removal is huge. That same information makes Meddling Mage very good.
It's possible that the red isn't needed, but I felt that the small splash was mostly a drop in the bucket with the addition of Unclaimed Territory in the mana base, and those two creatures in particular were proving to be very good in my Bant Red build. A few other things to note:
Small creature decks have not been a problem for me with any version of CoCo Humans. Our creatures quickly get too big for them to bust through, and Path to Exile and Reflector Mage keep the board in check. Post board, we have Arashin Cleric as a solid early blocker and lifegain if needed. The only "small creature deck" that is a problem is burn, but this version of the deck has way more tools to fight it and it seems much more winnable. Izzet Staticaster is great since it has flash and its ability is reusable for as long as it's alive, which is why I prefer it over Pontiff.
As for Vithian Renegades vs Reclamation Sage, there are a few things to talk about. Sage is harder to cast in a 4x Cavern of Souls, 4x Unclaimed Territory deck. It's a 2/1 body that doesn't grow vs a 3/2 body that does grow (not counting Anafenza triggers). It also doesn't grow any existing Champs of Lieutenants. There really aren't many enchantments we need to hit; those that we can hit can also be taken care of with Kitesail Freebooter, which I added a 4th of in the sideboard since yesterday, or Meddling Mage. Vithian Renegades is mostly used for sniping Aether Vial, since that usually comes down before we can grab it with a Freebooter or Mage. It's also used for Affinity, which is a matchup where enchantment removal is not necessary. So at this moment, enchantments aren't a concern, so I'll take the bigger body and all the synergies.
Stony Silence vs Kataki, War's Wage is always an interesting discussion. In the case of this deck, the only matchup I need Kataki for is Affinity. If Kataki sticks, it's nearly impossible to lose. Meanwhile, I have seen plenty of games where Affinity wins through Stony Silence without much issue. Yes, Kataki can be killed, but we can at least find a 2nd one with CoCo and we have other artifact removal to hit, so it's not the end of the world. As for Eldrazi Tron, there isn't much in that deck I'm afraid of. The main things I want to stop are Oblivion Stone and All is Dust, which the built in disruption package easily takes care of. I don't have much interest in vastly slowing down my on-board pressure by playing an enchantment on T2.
In summary, to WanganMidnight's point, the disrution package of this deck allows us to be very specific with our sideboard cards, so we can focus on silver bullets for specific matchups and play less flexible cards with more synergy. These are obviously just my opinions and some food for thought on a few subjects. The best way to find out is to test it all out for yourself and see what you like!
I'll try to help where I can.
1. I have never played against Lantern Control with Humans, but my guess is that this is the type of deck that is going to have a good matchup vs. us. You can add stuff like Ancient Grudge and Kataki, War's Wage to the SB to go with the Stony Silences (or up the Stony Silences), but between their targeted discard, Abrupt Decay, and SB Nature's Claim, it's going to be an uphill battle for Humans. Maybe try to get lucky with destroying Bridge and Surgical Extraction? It seems like a 1 in a million...
2. Blood Moon can be rough. The only thing I can say, at least for my version, is to fetch the Plains and Forest right away. These allow me to cast my White creatures and Collected Company/mana dorks. It will be tough, but if they don't have enough pressure, we can still win, despite being slowed down.
3. I played a LOT of Bogles years ago. This is just the type of deck that Bogles should beat. I don't feel there's much you can do about it. If you are super worried about it, you can put some number of Ray of Revelation in your SB, but that will definitely dilute it. Side in Meddling Mage, hoping to name a lifelink Aura or Daybreak Coronet (lifelink AND vigilance). I wouldn't put in Kambal. The game will come down to resources, not life. They have way too much life gain. I've had many an opponent think they were going to race and it never ended in their favor unless I drew only 3 or fewer Auras in a long game.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But that's just the thing - Ensnaring Bridge is the only card they have that is remotely scary. Snipe it with Freebooter, name it with Meddling Mage or destroy it with Renegades and they don't have anything else. Also, Noble Hierarch can sneak in the last few points of damage when all else fails.
Same as above - snipe it with Freebooter or Meddling Mage. Try to fetch early basics, with Forest generally being the most important. If you're super worried about it after it resolves, I suggest something like War Priest of Thune (or Reclamation Sage if sideboard slots are in short supply).
Bogles is tough, but Freebooter/Mage is the main plan with the Bant Black list. It's probably the list with the best Bogles matchup, but I imagine it's still not great. Kambal isn't a card to lean on in the matchup, but I think siding out Sin Collector for it would be an upgrade. It is one of the reasons I've added a 4th Freebooter to the sideboard. I've also had luck with the Bant Red build by just beating them to death with Mantis Rider and Voltaic Brawler before they've had a chance to establish anything too large. I wouldn't try Runed Halo, though. Blessed Alliance would be much better, and has crossover applications in other matchups like burn (and potential hilarity against Death's Shadow decks).
Fetching my three basics and trying to get rid of Blood Moon as early as possible with hand disruption is the best way. If it does resolve, it's only a minor annoiance, and usually a loss of turn three for the opponent.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
The issue I have with dropping blue is that creature matchups get considerably worse and sideboarding gets tougher since you can't lean on Reflector Mage and cut Path to Exile. Reflector Mage is what I consider to be the most important non-core creature (Champ/Lieutenant/Noble) in any CoCo Humans list. I'm ok taking a slightly higher risk against Blood Moon in order to have far better matchups and sideboarding across pretty much everything else.
Also, just as a heads up, I streamed some Modern Friendly League matches on twitch last night with the new Bant Black deck (twitch.tv/kingcars - should be available in the Videos section). I made a couple of egregious punts, one of which cost me a round, but both were due to interactions I wasn't thinking about or fully aware of, so it was a great learning experience for me and hopefully a good lesson for those watching as well. I also probably shouldn't have been playing so late at night, but oh well haha. But after 3 matches, the deck is 2-1 and I'm hoping to finish off strong tonight. I apologize for the low volume audio and the subpar video quality - both should be fixed for tonight's stream. Once the league is over, I'll be sure to clip out each round and post them to my Youtube channel, which is under the same name. I also may be streaming the Bant Red list as well so we can get some good side by side comparisons.
I think what I have learnt is that in Modern you cannot hope to answer every deck's best play, and you have to pick your battles. Obviously this is easier for paper magic as you can build up an idea of your local meta and sideboard accordingly, or consider the type of event you're playing in - FNM and online league will be more varied and people will play their pet decks more than in a GP or PPTQ where you might want to tweak in favour of 'the best' or the more established decks.
I'm loathe to give up sideboard slots up to fight other 'fair' creature decks, as if we can't win those then we're playing the wrong deck. In an open tournament environment I think we need to sideboard against the more unfair/solitaire style decks and the decks that demand specific answers, and be aware that our opponent is usually reaching for their removal and boardwipes against us. Kingcar's new list is interesting because it appears to give us more disruption to take away our opponent's powerful cards, whilst putting bodies on the board, which is kind of what I find myself siding into most games anyway.
There are obviously specific answers too all the above decks/cards, but I think Blood Moon would be the most common concern of the three, and the one I definitely agree with - we have a greedy mana base, and I think we should expect to play against a Blood Moon in a big tournament. People have pointed out how to alter your play to respect a possible Blood Moon, and most/all sideboards should pack Reclamation Sage/Qasali Pridemage/Vithian Renegades & War Priest to answer artifacts/enchantments. Some lists also run Negate/Unified Will, and I also run Spell Queller as my generic 'catch-all' for stuff I don't like/expect. Don't forget you can Path your creatures to get a basic land to untap with on your next turn, it hurts, but I pathed a Champion of the Parish to fetch basic Forest last week, untapped and played CoCo, hit 2 Noble Hierarchs and dug myself out from under a Blood Moon!
An interesting card I've seen showing up in lists is Gideon's Intervention, sort of an expensive Runed Halo that I use in standard, but it does work against Valakut and whichever creature the Bogles player has put the most stuff onto. Possibly too slow versus Lantern control, but you could sneak it out Turn 3 with a mana dork and name Bridge, although that'd be a game where I'd be bringing in my Quellers and Negates.
However I agree that ways to deal with enchantments are needed. Moon is one. PH. Unlife another. Incidentally it'll help VS Bogles. Some enchantments are way stronger plays on their side than playing a Human that won't deal with it on our side (like Renegades that we wouldn't bring in against Moon / Bogles anyway). It's less important to have a Human in the SB than an efficient answer to problematic situations. Kitesail Freebooter seems good enough so we don't need either Renegades or Rec Sage. Meddling Mage is probably a better card now.
Lantern Control is a favorable MU post-SB for me, as weird as it may sound for some. There are many games where they won't draw a Bridge, and if they do, we can build a massive board that will win on the spot once we get the answer. The thing though is to play Stony Silence along that plan. It's the card of choice if the expected meta has that MU in sight. Their best counter-plan in that configuration is a wrath like Damnation or Bontu's Last Reckoning.
It's cool to see the discussion live again anyway. Enjoy your decks !
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Sin Collector
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Gavony Township
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kitesail Freebooter
Game 1: Counters Company 2-0
Game 2: Merfolk 2-1 (that was extremely difficult and I believe that this build is unfavored in this matchup. This is why I think some changes have to be done.
Game 3: Grixis Death Shadow 2-0
Game 4: Bant Knightfall 2-0
Game 5: Lantern Control 2-0 (Freebooter into Meddling Mage was insane here in Game 1, because he had 3 Bridges in hand).
Summary: While the hand-disruption package was acceptable to good, I think the Meddling Mages are not good enough for the main. While they were winning me Game 1 against Lantern, I didn't have any useful application for them in the other matchups. It is extremely difficult to hit something in the dark. In addition, I think that 6 manadorks is not enough. The deck lives from explosives starts and even the disruptive package wants to be accelerated in. Anafenza turned out to be really good. However, I want to have 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar to improve certain creature matchups.
I would propose the following maindeck changes:
-2 Meddling Mage
-1 Anafenza ( I prefer a 2/2 legendary creature ratio over 3 Anafenza)
+1 Avacyn's Pilgrim (improves speed)
+2 Thalia V2.0 (improves creature and some greedy manabases matchups)
Also the sideboard needs some adaption against creature decks. The question is if I want Meddling Mage in the side or more specific hate.
Congrats! I'm glad the list ran well for you.
A couple of questions: What exactly was difficult about the Merfolk matchup? I would imagine that keeping them off of Spreading Seas would be a huge boon since their creatures generally can't compete pound for pound, outside of their ultra fast nut draws. And how did the GDS matchup feel? Both are matchups I have yet to encounter with my list.
What I have found with Meddling Mage is that it requires a very good knowledge of the format and a keen awareness of your opponent's outs/most important draws. In the videos I posted, there were several times where Mage was bad because I made it bad. But with careful piloting, I think it's still a good card. It is tough playing it before any Freebooters/Collectors/Reflector Mages, but I've still found the lockout plan to be worthwhile. I just need to get better at it. My only other concern would be overloading the deck with 3 drops - even with the 7th mana dork, the deck will be even more reliant on a T1 dork. When I ran 8 dorks in the 3 drop heavy Bant build, it was absurdly slow. Don't underestimate the power of a good curve.
I'm not sure Thalia 2.0 is the go-to card if you're having issues against something like Merfolk. It's not like their creatures have haste and most of their lands are basics. I'd recommend going for a flyer - Mantis Rider has been great for me against Merfolk and other various creature matchups in the Bant red build, and should be castable with the mana base and maybe fitting in a Sacred Foundry. If you want to keep the mana base more stable, maybe Lyev Skyknight or Abzan Falcomer? I'm not a big fan of either, but they could provide enough evasion to improve these matchups. This may just be a case where not all the matchups are going to be great, so you have to pick your battles. The Bant Red list is fantastic against Merfolk, but is much worse against a lot of the matchups that the Bant black list is great at (Ad Nauseum, especially G1, being a great example).
The blue splash for Reflector Mage seems easier with this manabase, i.e. with the addition of Unclaimed Territory.
I'm a fan of Big Thalia and I would definitely include her. Also i would pick the fourth Kitesail Freebooter over Avacyn's Pilgrim to free up another sideboard slot. Worship would be my pick.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Renegades is super useful against Aether Vial, which is ultra difficult/nearly impossible to hit with Freebooter or Meddling Mage.
--> In my opinion this matchup is a race in which it can be very important to tap their creatures and prevent them from blocking (that is why I like Thalia 2.0 or Abzan Falconer). Especially turns 4-5. I just think with your build you have a ton of dead cards against them 3 sin collector, 3 freebooter, 2 meddling mage and they just run over you. A mana dork into 3drop into two 2-drops makes the race much easier compared to a steady curve 1,2,3.
The GDS matchup is almost an auto-win. I have played the matchup like 20 times now and never lost.
I agree that Meddling Mage can be good. But even if you know the meta (which I do), it is almost useless if you have to play it before you play a freebooter or a sin collector and even then they have a turn to response and play the card. For example, what do you name blind against Valakut decks? Sure there are decks like Ad nauseam where MM is great ..but to be honest..who is still playing AD nauseam? I rather have stronger creatures compared to certain matchups that I don't face very often.
I am not sure abouth Thalia 2.0 either but I think it is one of the best options without being too risky with the mana. Abzan Falconer was always great for me and won me a lot of games against creature decks (actually no one ever removed it), because these decks are often short on removal. I took it out after your removal argument, but I might take it back in. I just think it is less impressive compared to Thalia 2.0
Yeah I can see that. Though Meddling Mage and Freebooter can hit Spreading Seas, which is their scariest card imo, and using Renegades to take them off of Vial is big as well.
Ad Nauseum is still pretty common on MTGO, so I gotta be prepared for it. Against Valakut, you could name a few things. Anger of the Gods, Through the Breach, Scapeshift, or even Sakura-Tribe Elder if you're on the play. Naming Search For Tomorrow could be hilarious if they suspend one on T1. It would be tough before knowing exactly which version you're up against, but would be very good once you figure it out.
As for having stronger creatures, unfortunately there aren't many good options in Bant Black at 2 cmc, which is one of the reasons to play the Bant Red list. Duskwatch Recruiter would probably be the next best choice there. The only worthwhile adjustments to make would be what you did and add more 3 drops, but I'd be reluctant to make the deck too reliant on a T1 dork A) Being in your opener and B) living till turn 2. If neither of those criteria are met, you're stuck with an even slower deck than before. Consistently being able to start on turn 2 when needed is very important. Meddling Mage not only allows you to do that, but also gives you a chance to interact with your opponent's gameplan. You won't always hit their gameplan, but the chance of it is still worthwhile and better than other 2 cmc options that I'm aware of.
That's fair. Merfolk is pretty light on removal, so Falconer could be good there. I would probably sideboard it though. Thalia is definitely better maindeck if that's what you're wanting.
As a random sidenote, I do want to playtest Abzan Falconer in the sideboard. The only real struggle I had at times was pushing through damage during board stalls, as evidenced in the first round of the league I posted. It even has synergy with Anafenza's ability to spread counters, which is nice. We can use Freebooter/Meddling Mage to protect it from spot removal too.
I probably won't run the meddling mages main and replace them with 1 avacyn pilgrim and a thalia V2.0. Tested it yesterday against Merfolk and Burn. Against Merfolk I won all games. Against burn I struggled a lot. I still need a better sideboard against burn. I play 2 Forge-tenders but not this lifegain Human.
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Sin Collector
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Abzan Falconer
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Arashin Cleric
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Kitesail Freebooter
My sideboard is tuned for a wide open meta since MTGO modern is basically the wild west for all sorts of rogue decks. I've yet to come across a deck I didn't have answers for.
I've only played against burn once with this list (won 2-0) but have played against it a lot with Bant Red. You have to be a little more selective than usual with the hands you keep. What you really want is painless mana and the ability to drop an Arashin Cleric without it getting hit by Skullcrack. Those two criteria greatly improve the matchup. With this list specifically, an early Kambal also goes a long way. It's still not a great matchup but certainly winnable. Sniping burn spells with Freebooter and Collector helps a lot, but you definitely need dedicated lifegain in the 75. I don't think forge tender does much for you since its main application is Anger of the Gods, which is easily sniped anyway.