Hey everyone, new poster on the thread, I've been playing the deck for a little bit more than a month now.
I understand that the deck was quite strong before the unbans because it could prey on lots of linear uninteractive decks, but with the recents unbans I have some trouble dealing with either Jund, Mardu pyromancer, or removal-heavy Jace lists (Sultai or Grixis). Mainly because of all the spot removals Bolt/Push/Decay/Collective Brutality and so on.
I'm planning on playing the deck at GP Madrid this weekend, do you have any insight or sideboard techs that could improve those matchups significantly ? I've been toying with Dire Fleet Daredevil, Auriok Champion and Mirran Crusader, but none of these seem to be impactful enough.
Thanks for your help !
Welcome to the thread!
I don't have experience vs Jund since Bloodbraid Elf is legal. I've fought the Elf, but only in the Zoo Tribal Flames shell. So my advices are pure theory...
Be careful with Freebooter. Most of the time, you should take Lightning Bolt or Fatal Push first, instead of Kolaghan’s Command or Maelstrom Pulse. This will force opponent to spend their best spell and more mana to get their card back. And if you have Thalia, you'll gain an extra turn doing so. Of course, if you have Vial and Freebooter in play, it will hurt when they'll cast Kolaghan’s Command. But I think it's better to force this play than leaving them with a cheap removal that will get them back their spell very fast. And if you're on the play, maybe you can even play Meddling Mage or another Freebooter to take care of it before they can cast it. And, of course, you'll be careful before playing a duplicate if you've seen Maelstrom Pulse in their hand.
With Meddling Mage, if you cast it uninformed (because it doesn’t follow a Freebooter), it may be tempting to name Kolaghan’s Command or Maelstrom Pulse, because these are the spells that hurt us the most. But Jund don't play more than 1-2 of these spells, so I think that's a very bad call. Bolt and Push could be good, but they don't play more than 3 copies of each, so even that could be the wrong call. However, they play 4 copies of Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. I would name Liliana of the Veil before they can cast it in the early game, or if Meddling Mage is the only creature you control. But once they have 3 lands, I would name Bloodbraid Elf before they can play their fourth land (still be careful if Meddling Mage is alone on the battlefield, because Liliana of the Veil can force the sacrifice).
Remember that with 2 counters on Vial, you can play Thalia while Bloodbraid Elf is on the stack, before Cascade resolves. This will tax the cascaded spell, and if they can’t pay the tax, it will fizzle. And a 3/2 Haste can't attack into a 2/1 First Strike.
I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is better than Kessig Malcontents in a meta with Jund. They play 1 basic out of 25 lands, so she'll hurt their curve a lot if not answered right away. Tapping Bloodbraid Elf kills Haste, and tapping Tarmogoyf removes a big blocker for a turn. This gives us an edge that a Malcontents no longer have (it won't generate a lot of damage if all your other creatures got removed).
Finally, it may be a good thing to side out Vial to bring in more creatures. Goal is to overload their removals and win a longer game. Dire Fleet Daredevil is a sound choice for the matchup. Auriok Champion resists Bolt, but is only a 1/1. Mirran Crusader dies to Bolt but resists all other removals, and can attack/block vs Elf, Goyf and Ooze. I thus prefer Crusader over Auriok Champion.
If we can tweek the manabase to manage Descendants' Path, I would try it out vs Jund.
I've been toying with Dire Fleet Daredevil, Auriok Champion and Mirran Crusader, but none of these seem to be impactful enough.
Mirran Crusader is one of the best Humans in your SB. It's meta dependant, and it seems now is the right time for it to shine. I play two and it's a fast clock against black decks. Go on running it.
On top of that we're getting a very nice 1-drop which will help protecting our important creatures. It's a card that may let us cut the random last slots nobody agrees on.
Benalish Marshal
WWW
Creature — Human Knight
3/3
Other creatures you control get +1/+1.
Not sure we want another lord, but it's there to consider.
Humans want evasion, and we lack some. I think extra lords won't make the cut if they don't provide some vanilla bonus.
Knight of Malice
1B
Creature — Human Knight
2/2
First strike
Hexproof from white (This creature can't be the target of white spells or abilities your opponents control.)
Knight of Malice gets +1/+0 as long as any player controls a white permanent.
———
Sideboard material?
Mirran Crusader is a better "blackproof" creature than the white Knight. I don't see enough Path to Exile decks that would warrant the black Knight. They are pushed for standard though.
Kwende, Pride of Femeref
3W
Legendary Creature — Human Knight
2/2
Double strike
Creatures you control with first strike have double strike.
———
Costs a lot, but some synergy with both Thalias and Daredevil.
———
Shanna, Sisay's Legacy
GW
Legendary Creature — Human Warrior
0/0
Shanna, Sisay's Legacy can't be the target of abilities your opponents control.
Shanna gets +1/+1 for each creature you control.
———
I don't think she's good enough to kick a card out of the deck, but she seems like a better top deck than a Champion in the late game.
Bad cards. Prolly not modern playable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Hey everyone, new poster on the thread, I've been playing the deck for a little bit more than a month now.
I understand that the deck was quite strong before the unbans because it could prey on lots of linear uninteractive decks, but with the recents unbans I have some trouble dealing with either Jund, Mardu pyromancer, or removal-heavy Jace lists (Sultai or Grixis). Mainly because of all the spot removals Bolt/Push/Decay/Collective Brutality and so on.
I'm planning on playing the deck at GP Madrid this weekend, do you have any insight or sideboard techs that could improve those matchups significantly ? I've been toying with Dire Fleet Daredevil, Auriok Champion and Mirran Crusader, but none of these seem to be impactful enough.
Thanks for your help !
Welcome to the thread!
I don't have experience vs Jund since Bloodbraid Elf is legal. I've fought the Elf, but only in the Zoo Tribal Flames shell. So my advices are pure theory...
Be careful with Freebooter. Most of the time, you should take Lightning Bolt or Fatal Push first, instead of Kolaghan’s Command or Maelstrom Pulse. This will force opponent to spend their best spell and more mana to get their card back. And if you have Thalia, you'll gain an extra turn doing so. Of course, if you have Vial and Freebooter in play, it will hurt when they'll cast Kolaghan’s Command. But I think it's better to force this play than leaving them with a cheap removal that will get them back their spell very fast. And if you're on the play, maybe you can even play Meddling Mage or another Freebooter to take care of it before they can cast it. And, of course, you'll be careful before playing a duplicate if you've seen Maelstrom Pulse in their hand.
With Meddling Mage, if you cast it uninformed (because it doesn’t follow a Freebooter), it may be tempting to name Kolaghan’s Command or Maelstrom Pulse, because these are the spells that hurt us the most. But Jund don't play more than 1-2 of these spells, so I think that's a very bad call. Bolt and Push could be good, but they don't play more than 3 copies of each, so even that could be the wrong call. However, they play 4 copies of Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. I would name Liliana of the Veil before they can cast it in the early game, or if Meddling Mage is the only creature you control. But once they have 3 lands, I would name Bloodbraid Elf before they can play their fourth land (still be careful if Meddling Mage is alone on the battlefield, because Liliana of the Veil can force the sacrifice).
Remember that with 2 counters on Vial, you can play Thalia while Bloodbraid Elf is on the stack, before Cascade resolves. This will tax the cascaded spell, and if they can’t pay the tax, it will fizzle. And a 3/2 Haste can't attack into a 2/1 First Strike.
I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is better than Kessig Malcontents in a meta with Jund. They play 1 basic out of 25 lands, so she'll hurt their curve a lot if not answered right away. Tapping Bloodbraid Elf kills Haste, and tapping Tarmogoyf removes a big blocker for a turn. This gives us an edge that a Malcontents no longer have (it won't generate a lot of damage if all your other creatures got removed).
Finally, it may be a good thing to side out Vial to bring in more creatures. Goal is to overload their removals and win a longer game. Dire Fleet Daredevil is a sound choice for the matchup. Auriok Champion resists Bolt, but is only a 1/1. Mirran Crusader dies to Bolt but resists all other removals, and can attack/block vs Elf, Goyf and Ooze. I thus prefer Crusader over Auriok Champion.
If we can tweek the manabase to manage Descendants' Path, I would try it out vs Jund.
I play Jund as well as Humans and some of this is wrong.
Jund usually runs 4x Bolt main, 1-2 Push, one Abrupt Decay, and 2x mix of Terminate and Dreadbore
The lists universally run four basics out of 24 or 25 lands total
Bolt is normally the best target for Freebooter, or for Meddling Mage in the dark, no question. Bolt is a real house against our deck.
We are the beatdown against Jund so take that into consideration when siding for G2/3. Vial is great for us but it does lead to K Command blowouts. I like big Thalia in my 75 over Malcontents also.
I went 5-0 in a field of 54 last night with Vial Humans. I was 4-0 on Monday out of 36 players, with Jund.
Well, looks like there are lots and lots of Humans coming with the Dominaria leak.
Some of them might have some room in our deck. Is it crazy to consider running a singleton Naban, Dean of Iteration? If I am understanding correctly, having this on the battlefield would allow Meddling Mage to name TWO spells. Reflector Mage would bounce TWO creatures. And Champion and Lieutenant would each get two counters when any one of these three Wizard creatures hits the battlefield.
It's probably too situational with only 7-8 payoff Wizards in the main, but if it did hit it looks like a huge swing, to me.
Well, looks like there are lots and lots of Humans coming with the Dominaria leak.
Some of them might have some room in our deck. Is it crazy to consider running a singleton Naban, Dean of Iteration? If I am understanding correctly, having this on the battlefield would allow Meddling Mage to name TWO spells. Reflector Mage would bounce TWO creatures. And Champion and Lieutenant would each get two counters when any one of these three Wizard creatures hits the battlefield.
It's probably too situational with only 7-8 payoff Wizards in the main, but if it did hit it looks like a huge swing, to me.
Meddling Mage's ability is not triggered, so it is unnafected by this wizard dude.
The best human shown in that leak is the 1 mana 2/1 that give indestructible when sac'd.
Main take away is that I feel like CoCo is a little better than Vial at this point in the meta. Or at least, for the meta I saw in Worcester.
Why do you think CoCo is better than Vial in this meta?
The big thing for me is that, if Jund/UWx stays super prevalent, Vial decks don't tend to grind well. I keep looking back to watching the deck play against Mardu Mancer and getting torn apart by removal. CoCo puts two threats on board and provides card advantage, and is a much better top deck in the late game, which is where you'll find yourself being more often than not in a Jund meta. You sacrifice early-game explosiveness, but you gain long-term stability. The only concern I have regarding CoCo lists is the mana base, as beating Blood Moon become incredibly difficult. Burn also gets worse, due to the 6 painlands the deck runs to make the mana work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
I personally cut my Vials against Jund. I think Vial can grind "enough", while Coco grinds "better". Mardu is still a marginal deck so far, and I don't think either Coco vs Vial is what gets the MU decided. Coco can dig towards SB cards better, that's for sure (here Staticaster).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Looks like this past weekend Jonathon Rosum and Collins Mullen top 8'd a SCG Classic and IQ respectively with this list, which offers an interesting take on the new meta:
I've tried Inspectors in the past and while I didn't hate them they didn't feel particularly impactful either. Still, the redraw is powerful enough I could see reincluding a copy or two. P&K make for an interesting option for grinding, and I guess Reflecting Pool can theoretically let you activate their ability? Again, I'm not in love but maybe this is the right approach to a Jund meta.
As for the sideboard, can somebody explain to me why people are running Auriok Champion? Obviously it's great vs Burn but I don't want it for grindy matchups. I don't care how much removal it resists, it's still a 2 mana 1/1. I'm not big on Gaddock Teeg either; I've lost to too many Oblivion Stones, Angers, Sweltering Suns, etc. I've preferred big Thalia as a tool for the "big" mana matchups (including midrange/control decks that play 4 drops) as a way to get one more turn before my opponent can resolve a sweeper.
On the other hand I am a fan of the SB pirates. I've been off of Hostage Taker for a while but the idea of taking BBE hostage is very, very appealing, particularly if you board out Vial. Daredevil is strong in the grindy matchups and is broadly powerful enough to slot in when you have more cuts for a matchup than dedicated sideboard slots.
Other thoughts? I'm hoping to stay on Humans while I wait for DOM to drop Dauntless Bodyguard but have been struggling since the ban, so I'd love to hear what adaptions others have made in the face of BBE.
BTW, if Dauntless Bodyguard is eventually good for Humans, why don’t we play Saffi Eriksdotter instead? She has a better body, and doesn’t have to choose a creature to protect. She can be played on an empty board on turn 2, and still protect Mantis Rider on turn 3. Saving a Human with Saffi will also trigger ETB effects, and she’s easier to play with Vial, since we’re more likely to have it at 2 counters than 1.
I don’t know her interaction with Phantasmal Image, however. Her ability will probably fizzle. I’ll ask on the rulings forum...
Looks like this past weekend Jonathon Rosum and Collins Mullen top 8'd a SCG Classic and IQ respectively with this list, which offers an interesting take on the new meta:
I've tried Inspectors in the past and while I didn't hate them they didn't feel particularly impactful either. Still, the redraw is powerful enough I could see reincluding a copy or two. P&K make for an interesting option for grinding, and I guess Reflecting Pool can theoretically let you activate their ability? Again, I'm not in love but maybe this is the right approach to a Jund meta.
As for the sideboard, can somebody explain to me why people are running Auriok Champion? Obviously it's great vs Burn but I don't want it for grindy matchups. I don't care how much removal it resists, it's still a 2 mana 1/1. I'm not big on Gaddock Teeg either; I've lost to too many Oblivion Stones, Angers, Sweltering Suns, etc. I've preferred big Thalia as a tool for the "big" mana matchups (including midrange/control decks that play 4 drops) as a way to get one more turn before my opponent can resolve a sweeper.
On the other hand I am a fan of the SB pirates. I've been off of Hostage Taker for a while but the idea of taking BBE hostage is very, very appealing, particularly if you board out Vial. Daredevil is strong in the grindy matchups and is broadly powerful enough to slot in when you have more cuts for a matchup than dedicated sideboard slots.
Other thoughts? I'm hoping to stay on Humans while I wait for DOM to drop Dauntless Bodyguard but have been struggling since the ban, so I'd love to hear what adaptions others have made in the face of BBE.
I like Mom & Dad in theory, but it does pressure the deck pretty hard. You really have to run more than 12 rainbow lands if you're playing that card; since it requires RR, twelve sources to cast it aren't going to cut it, Vial or no Vial. (TBH I don't really think 14 rainbow lands is going to work consistently, either.) Add to that the uselessness of a Reflecting Pool as the sole opening land in hand, or with the Plains, and I don't particularly card for the angle shown in that decklist. OTOH, I'm no pro, just a local tryhard.
I don't like Auriok Champion. I suspect it's there for Burn but also for Pyromancer builds. For Anger, Selfless Spirit is better than Teeg; for Sweltering Suns (or Bontu's Last Reckoning), Xathrid Necromancer is better than either. Teeg is really pointed at UW decks and Tron variants.
Regarding Thraben Inspector, I think I'd rather just play Bob. Lower floor but far, far higher ceiling, though of course it's also true that it fits the curve worse in opening turns.
BTW, if Dauntless Bodyguard is eventually good for Humans, why don’t we play Saffi Eriksdotter instead? She has a better body, and doesn’t have to choose a creature to protect. She can be played on an empty board on turn 2, and still protect Mantis Rider on turn 3. Saving a Human with Saffi will also trigger ETB effects, and she’s easier to play with Vial, since we’re more likely to have it at 2 counters than 1.
I don’t know her interaction with Phantasmal Image, however. Her ability will probably fizzle. I’ll ask on the rulings forum...
Looks like this past weekend Jonathon Rosum and Collins Mullen top 8'd a SCG Classic and IQ respectively with this list, which offers an interesting take on the new meta:
I can’t find Collins Mullen’s list. Can you please provide the URL to the event and Top 8?
Looks like this past weekend Jonathon Rosum and Collins Mullen top 8'd a SCG Classic and IQ respectively with this list, which offers an interesting take on the new meta:
I can’t find Collins Mullen’s list. Can you please provide the URL to the event and Top 8?
You can find the lists for the IQ Mullen played in here: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&t[T2]=28&start_date=2018-03-10&end_date=2018-03-10&state=NC&city=Cary&order_1=finish&order_2=last_name&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks. Side note, if anyone can show me the proper way to create a [url]-tag for that link I'd appreciate it.
Regarding both Thraben Inspector vs. Dark Confidant and Dauntless Bodyguard vs. Saffi Eriksdotter let's not undersell the difference between 1 and 2 mana. Too many times I've played a turn 1 Aether Vial and not activated it until turn 3. We have our disruptive elements and our grindy elements but at the end of the day we're in the Aggro/Tempo section of the forum for a reason, and I want to curve out as consistently as possible.
You can find the lists for the IQ Mullen played in here: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&t[T2]=28&start_date=2018-03-10&end_date=2018-03-10&state=NC&city=Cary&order_1=finish&order_2=last_name&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks. Side note, if anyone can show me the proper way to create a [url]-tag for that link I'd appreciate it.
Not that I know of. The brackets in the URL corrupt the tag.
Regarding both Thraben Inspector vs. Dark Confidant and Dauntless Bodyguard vs. Saffi Eriksdotter let's not undersell the difference between 1 and 2 mana. Too many times I've played a turn 1 Aether Vial and not activated it until turn 3. We have our disruptive elements and our grindy elements but at the end of the day we're in the Aggro/Tempo section of the forum for a reason, and I want to curve out as consistently as possible.
The stock list with 19 lands and 4 Vials follows an 8-20-9 curve :
My own list (with 2 Big Thalia instead 1 RefMage and 1 Malcontents) has a slightly lower curve, at 10-18-9 (with 2 Kytheon instead of 1 Thalia and 1 MedMage, mainly because I don't feel I know the meta well enough to play 4 MedMage and because I'm anxious to play 4 copies of the same legendary). So we agree already that a lower curve is a reasonable goal for the deck. I'm not entirely sure my call on Kytheon was the right one, however. Is Thraben Inspector the right call for this slot? Could these two 1-drop slots be replaced with Dauntless Bodyguard, or Saffi Eriksdotter?
Bodyguard is better than Saffi at 3 things : It costs less (W vs GW). BUT, Bodyguard is a vanilla 2/1 on an empty board, and this means it's a pretty bad turn 1 play. AND costing only 1 mana is a drawback when Vial is better and more often at 2 counters (rather than 1). On the mana cost axis, I feel it fails at properly lowering our curve. It can protect Phantasmal Image. BUT, this advantage is mitigated by the fact that the illusion is still in the flex spot (and that it's already down to 2 copies in Pros' lists). It's better protecting +1/+1 counters (invulnerable = don’t lose counters). BUT this is of no use if Bodyguard isn't protecting the fat creature. AND most probably having another trigger through Saffi is better than saving a few counters.
It seems to me Bodyguard will be much more awkward than Saffi. She can be played anytime during the game (main phase or with Vial) to protect a creature already on the battlefield, or that will later enter the battlefield. Dauntless Bodyguard is much more narrow. We can play Saffi with 2 mana and activate Vial to play a 2/3-drop that is already protected (either Saffi is a removal magnet while activation is on the stack and opponent doesn’t yet know the creature Vial will reveal, or Saffi can sacrifice herself to protect Vial's creature when you pass priority later). But the same is not true for Bodyguard. It's hard to play with Vial, and it cannot protect future creatures.
About the addition of Pia and Kiran Nalaar... I strongly doubt playing two RR 4-drops is something a 19 lands deck can afford in the main deck. Isn't Pia Nalaar strictly better for us? One less Thopter token for a more reasonable mana cost, and her abilities are a bit easier to use (including late game sac Vial to prevent a creature from blocking). And like someone else said, I think Big Thalia is better than any Nalaar cards in this metagame.
I think the bad T1 play is the real handicap for Dauntless Bodyguard. On the other hand it could be pretty good off a T1 Vial after a key 2-drop. Certainly worth testing. I've liked a single Kytheon a lot as an undercosted one-drop threat.
I'm running 3x Reflector (1x side), 1x Kytheon, 1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Big Thalia is good against some of our harder matchups, especially Tron. She can be pretty bad against Bolt decks though, and she is my flex slot for sure.
What ? Not even Sigarda V1 can protect Image, how would indestructible help ?
As for the sideboard, can somebody explain to me why people are running Auriok Champion? Obviously it's great vs Burn but I don't want it for grindy matchups. I don't care how much removal it resists, it's still a 2 mana 1/1.
Auriok Champ is also great against Dredge, Elves & Merfolk. It's a card you want against aggro, not against grindy decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Seems like Bodyguard would only protect phantasmal image from some wraths but not from targeted removal...PI would be sacrificed before the bolt resolves, and indestructible doesn't protect from sacrifice, correct?
I can think of a few reasons why Saffi is not as good as dauntless bodyguard.
1) it costs 2 mana. We are overloaded on two drops currently. This is great for vial on 2 but can give us awkward turns with 3 mana up where we only play a 2 drop. Vial is also bad vs Jund and should generally be boarded out for more gas. Dauntless is great vs Jund.
One of the biggest differences with the mana cost is that dauntless will trade equally or favourably on mana. Sacrificing saffi to counter a lightning bolt or push trades 2 mana for 1, while dauntless will trade at 1 for 1. Dauntless also trade favourable with dreadbore, terminate, abrupt decay.
Also, in situations where our opponent is not playing an interactive deck Dauntless can give us a clock on turn 1. A 2/1 that grows from lieutenant is an alright play. Obviously not ideal but frequently better than nothing.
2) Our best graveyard hate is a non bo with saffi. Grafdiggers cage turns off saffi. One of the matchups where cage is best is vs control, also a matchup saffi would provide the most value.
Edit: Saffi is also bad vs scooze, which we are seeing a lot of right now.
3) triggering enter/leave the battlefield effects can be both good and bad. For instance, if our opponent kills our meddling mage naming a key removal spell they have an opportunity to use that spell while the saffi trigger is on the stack. It also gives them back their card from freebooter, while we do get to look at their hand again opponents can play around the triggers to punish Saffi over dauntless.
Saffi also can't protect a large champion or lieutenant. There will be times when saving a 4/4 lieutenant or champ from is more impactful than triggering lieutenant again, such as vs a boardwipe where it comes in as a 1/1 with no other creatures to buff.
A couple more things for the Saffi vs Bodyguard debate:
1) Bodyguard works against Anger of the Gods, a commonly played card and a huge thorn in our side.
2) Bodyguard would generally be used to protect an early Champion or Lieutenant. As Ziszou89 said, Saffi can't protect a large Champion or Lieutenant, while Bodyguard fills this slot in the curve fairly well. A couple potential lines:
T1 Vial, T2 cast Lieutenant, Vial in Bodyguard in response to trigger
T1 Vial, T2 cast hatebear (Thalia, Meddling Mage, Freebooter), Vial in Bodyguard to protect key card in matchup
T1 Hierarch, T2 Bodyguard + 2 drop (if Hierarch sticks)
T1 Hierarch, opp removes Hierarch, T2 2 drop, T3 Bodyguard + 2 drop (for the hands where you don't have a 3 drop or Reflector Mage has no targets yet)
Clearly Bodyguard is a weak T1 play, but in a deck where all the 1 drops get weaker the later you play them I don't think having a 1 drop that's better after turn 1 is such a bad thing. I'd like to have a 1 drop I can play on T4 alongside my 3 drop and still get value from it. Personally I plan to try a list like patbou describes with Bodyguard as the 9th and 10th 1 drop and I'll see how it goes once DOM is released.
For now I think Kytheon vs Inspector vs 2 drops is largely a judgement call. I like Inspector over Kytheon against UWx due to their interactions w/ Path and Electrolyze as well as against aggressive decks where a 1/2 can be better than a 2/1, while Kytheon is better against combo as a clock and against midrange/control decks using black and/or red for their removal.
The issue I have with the Bodyguard is that it does something we don't quite need and that never was something we were missing.
We are playing a deck with expendables creatures. If we want a good creature that is not, we play Mirran Crusader. Path ot Exile deals with it but Bodyguard is also inefficient against that card. I'm still waiting for a Human that doesn't lose to Path and/or Bolt, and Bodyguard ain't that card. Knight of Malice might be better VS PtE decks.
If I want an effect that protect my other Humans, I want a Selfless Spirit which saves the whole board. Or I want a Mother of Runes that can do its effect several times a game. Still waiting.
I think they printed a very fair version of Mom, probably strong in Standard, maybe good in a deck with a Geist of Saint Traft-like threat. If Bodyguard sees play in Humans, it won't fix the bad MUs, because it's not very good at what it does.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't have experience vs Jund since Bloodbraid Elf is legal. I've fought the Elf, but only in the Zoo Tribal Flames shell. So my advices are pure theory...
Be careful with Freebooter. Most of the time, you should take Lightning Bolt or Fatal Push first, instead of Kolaghan’s Command or Maelstrom Pulse. This will force opponent to spend their best spell and more mana to get their card back. And if you have Thalia, you'll gain an extra turn doing so. Of course, if you have Vial and Freebooter in play, it will hurt when they'll cast Kolaghan’s Command. But I think it's better to force this play than leaving them with a cheap removal that will get them back their spell very fast. And if you're on the play, maybe you can even play Meddling Mage or another Freebooter to take care of it before they can cast it. And, of course, you'll be careful before playing a duplicate if you've seen Maelstrom Pulse in their hand.
With Meddling Mage, if you cast it uninformed (because it doesn’t follow a Freebooter), it may be tempting to name Kolaghan’s Command or Maelstrom Pulse, because these are the spells that hurt us the most. But Jund don't play more than 1-2 of these spells, so I think that's a very bad call. Bolt and Push could be good, but they don't play more than 3 copies of each, so even that could be the wrong call. However, they play 4 copies of Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. I would name Liliana of the Veil before they can cast it in the early game, or if Meddling Mage is the only creature you control. But once they have 3 lands, I would name Bloodbraid Elf before they can play their fourth land (still be careful if Meddling Mage is alone on the battlefield, because Liliana of the Veil can force the sacrifice).
Remember that with 2 counters on Vial, you can play Thalia while Bloodbraid Elf is on the stack, before Cascade resolves. This will tax the cascaded spell, and if they can’t pay the tax, it will fizzle. And a 3/2 Haste can't attack into a 2/1 First Strike.
I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is better than Kessig Malcontents in a meta with Jund. They play 1 basic out of 25 lands, so she'll hurt their curve a lot if not answered right away. Tapping Bloodbraid Elf kills Haste, and tapping Tarmogoyf removes a big blocker for a turn. This gives us an edge that a Malcontents no longer have (it won't generate a lot of damage if all your other creatures got removed).
Finally, it may be a good thing to side out Vial to bring in more creatures. Goal is to overload their removals and win a longer game. Dire Fleet Daredevil is a sound choice for the matchup. Auriok Champion resists Bolt, but is only a 1/1. Mirran Crusader dies to Bolt but resists all other removals, and can attack/block vs Elf, Goyf and Ooze. I thus prefer Crusader over Auriok Champion.
If we can tweek the manabase to manage Descendants' Path, I would try it out vs Jund.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Mirran Crusader is one of the best Humans in your SB. It's meta dependant, and it seems now is the right time for it to shine. I play two and it's a fast clock against black decks. Go on running it.
On top of that we're getting a very nice 1-drop which will help protecting our important creatures. It's a card that may let us cut the random last slots nobody agrees on.
Humans want evasion, and we lack some. I think extra lords won't make the cut if they don't provide some vanilla bonus.
Mirran Crusader is a better "blackproof" creature than the white Knight. I don't see enough Path to Exile decks that would warrant the black Knight. They are pushed for standard though.
Bad cards. Prolly not modern playable.
We are the beatdown against Jund so take that into consideration when siding for G2/3. Vial is great for us but it does lead to K Command blowouts. I like big Thalia in my 75 over Malcontents also.
I went 5-0 in a field of 54 last night with Vial Humans. I was 4-0 on Monday out of 36 players, with Jund.
Some of them might have some room in our deck. Is it crazy to consider running a singleton Naban, Dean of Iteration? If I am understanding correctly, having this on the battlefield would allow Meddling Mage to name TWO spells. Reflector Mage would bounce TWO creatures. And Champion and Lieutenant would each get two counters when any one of these three Wizard creatures hits the battlefield.
It's probably too situational with only 7-8 payoff Wizards in the main, but if it did hit it looks like a huge swing, to me.
Meddling Mage's ability is not triggered, so it is unnafected by this wizard dude.
The best human shown in that leak is the 1 mana 2/1 that give indestructible when sac'd.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
The big thing for me is that, if Jund/UWx stays super prevalent, Vial decks don't tend to grind well. I keep looking back to watching the deck play against Mardu Mancer and getting torn apart by removal. CoCo puts two threats on board and provides card advantage, and is a much better top deck in the late game, which is where you'll find yourself being more often than not in a Jund meta. You sacrifice early-game explosiveness, but you gain long-term stability. The only concern I have regarding CoCo lists is the mana base, as beating Blood Moon become incredibly difficult. Burn also gets worse, due to the 6 painlands the deck runs to make the mana work.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Mardu is still a marginal deck so far, and I don't think either Coco vs Vial is what gets the MU decided. Coco can dig towards SB cards better, that's for sure (here Staticaster).
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Mantis Rider
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Reflector Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thraben Inspector
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Plains
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Unclaimed Territory
Spells (4)
4 Aether Vial
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Auriok Champion
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
2 Hostage Taker
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Dismember
2 Gaddock Teeg
I've tried Inspectors in the past and while I didn't hate them they didn't feel particularly impactful either. Still, the redraw is powerful enough I could see reincluding a copy or two. P&K make for an interesting option for grinding, and I guess Reflecting Pool can theoretically let you activate their ability? Again, I'm not in love but maybe this is the right approach to a Jund meta.
As for the sideboard, can somebody explain to me why people are running Auriok Champion? Obviously it's great vs Burn but I don't want it for grindy matchups. I don't care how much removal it resists, it's still a 2 mana 1/1. I'm not big on Gaddock Teeg either; I've lost to too many Oblivion Stones, Angers, Sweltering Suns, etc. I've preferred big Thalia as a tool for the "big" mana matchups (including midrange/control decks that play 4 drops) as a way to get one more turn before my opponent can resolve a sweeper.
On the other hand I am a fan of the SB pirates. I've been off of Hostage Taker for a while but the idea of taking BBE hostage is very, very appealing, particularly if you board out Vial. Daredevil is strong in the grindy matchups and is broadly powerful enough to slot in when you have more cuts for a matchup than dedicated sideboard slots.
Other thoughts? I'm hoping to stay on Humans while I wait for DOM to drop Dauntless Bodyguard but have been struggling since the ban, so I'd love to hear what adaptions others have made in the face of BBE.
BTW, if Dauntless Bodyguard is eventually good for Humans, why don’t we play Saffi Eriksdotter instead? She has a better body, and doesn’t have to choose a creature to protect. She can be played on an empty board on turn 2, and still protect Mantis Rider on turn 3. Saving a Human with Saffi will also trigger ETB effects, and she’s easier to play with Vial, since we’re more likely to have it at 2 counters than 1.
I don’t know her interaction with Phantasmal Image, however. Her ability will probably fizzle. I’ll ask on the rulings forum...
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I don't like Auriok Champion. I suspect it's there for Burn but also for Pyromancer builds. For Anger, Selfless Spirit is better than Teeg; for Sweltering Suns (or Bontu's Last Reckoning), Xathrid Necromancer is better than either. Teeg is really pointed at UW decks and Tron variants.
Regarding Thraben Inspector, I think I'd rather just play Bob. Lower floor but far, far higher ceiling, though of course it's also true that it fits the curve worse in opening turns.
Saffi can’t save Phantasmal Image (https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/790492-saffi-vs-image). So that’s bad for her. But I still think she would be more useful and fit the deck better than Dauntless Bodyguard in a removals heavy meta. No?
I can’t find Collins Mullen’s list. Can you please provide the URL to the event and Top 8?
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
You can find the lists for the IQ Mullen played in here: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&t[T2]=28&start_date=2018-03-10&end_date=2018-03-10&state=NC&city=Cary&order_1=finish&order_2=last_name&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks. Side note, if anyone can show me the proper way to create a [url]-tag for that link I'd appreciate it.
Regarding both Thraben Inspector vs. Dark Confidant and Dauntless Bodyguard vs. Saffi Eriksdotter let's not undersell the difference between 1 and 2 mana. Too many times I've played a turn 1 Aether Vial and not activated it until turn 3. We have our disruptive elements and our grindy elements but at the end of the day we're in the Aggro/Tempo section of the forum for a reason, and I want to curve out as consistently as possible.
Not that I know of. The brackets in the URL corrupt the tag.
The stock list with 19 lands and 4 Vials follows an 8-20-9 curve :
Bodyguard is better than Saffi at 3 things :
It costs less (W vs GW). BUT, Bodyguard is a vanilla 2/1 on an empty board, and this means it's a pretty bad turn 1 play. AND costing only 1 mana is a drawback when Vial is better and more often at 2 counters (rather than 1). On the mana cost axis, I feel it fails at properly lowering our curve.
It can protect Phantasmal Image. BUT, this advantage is mitigated by the fact that the illusion is still in the flex spot (and that it's already down to 2 copies in Pros' lists).
It's better protecting +1/+1 counters (invulnerable = don’t lose counters). BUT this is of no use if Bodyguard isn't protecting the fat creature. AND most probably having another trigger through Saffi is better than saving a few counters.
It seems to me Bodyguard will be much more awkward than Saffi. She can be played anytime during the game (main phase or with Vial) to protect a creature already on the battlefield, or that will later enter the battlefield. Dauntless Bodyguard is much more narrow. We can play Saffi with 2 mana and activate Vial to play a 2/3-drop that is already protected (either Saffi is a removal magnet while activation is on the stack and opponent doesn’t yet know the creature Vial will reveal, or Saffi can sacrifice herself to protect Vial's creature when you pass priority later). But the same is not true for Bodyguard. It's hard to play with Vial, and it cannot protect future creatures.
About the addition of Pia and Kiran Nalaar... I strongly doubt playing two RR 4-drops is something a 19 lands deck can afford in the main deck. Isn't Pia Nalaar strictly better for us? One less Thopter token for a more reasonable mana cost, and her abilities are a bit easier to use (including late game sac Vial to prevent a creature from blocking). And like someone else said, I think Big Thalia is better than any Nalaar cards in this metagame.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I'm running 3x Reflector (1x side), 1x Kytheon, 1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Big Thalia is good against some of our harder matchups, especially Tron. She can be pretty bad against Bolt decks though, and she is my flex slot for sure.
What ? Not even Sigarda V1 can protect Image, how would indestructible help ?
Auriok Champ is also great against Dredge, Elves & Merfolk. It's a card you want against aggro, not against grindy decks.
1) it costs 2 mana. We are overloaded on two drops currently. This is great for vial on 2 but can give us awkward turns with 3 mana up where we only play a 2 drop. Vial is also bad vs Jund and should generally be boarded out for more gas. Dauntless is great vs Jund.
One of the biggest differences with the mana cost is that dauntless will trade equally or favourably on mana. Sacrificing saffi to counter a lightning bolt or push trades 2 mana for 1, while dauntless will trade at 1 for 1. Dauntless also trade favourable with dreadbore, terminate, abrupt decay.
Also, in situations where our opponent is not playing an interactive deck Dauntless can give us a clock on turn 1. A 2/1 that grows from lieutenant is an alright play. Obviously not ideal but frequently better than nothing.
2) Our best graveyard hate is a non bo with saffi. Grafdiggers cage turns off saffi. One of the matchups where cage is best is vs control, also a matchup saffi would provide the most value.
Edit: Saffi is also bad vs scooze, which we are seeing a lot of right now.
3) triggering enter/leave the battlefield effects can be both good and bad. For instance, if our opponent kills our meddling mage naming a key removal spell they have an opportunity to use that spell while the saffi trigger is on the stack. It also gives them back their card from freebooter, while we do get to look at their hand again opponents can play around the triggers to punish Saffi over dauntless.
Saffi also can't protect a large champion or lieutenant. There will be times when saving a 4/4 lieutenant or champ from is more impactful than triggering lieutenant again, such as vs a boardwipe where it comes in as a 1/1 with no other creatures to buff.
1) Bodyguard works against Anger of the Gods, a commonly played card and a huge thorn in our side.
2) Bodyguard would generally be used to protect an early Champion or Lieutenant. As Ziszou89 said, Saffi can't protect a large Champion or Lieutenant, while Bodyguard fills this slot in the curve fairly well. A couple potential lines:
T1 Vial, T2 cast Lieutenant, Vial in Bodyguard in response to trigger
T1 Vial, T2 cast hatebear (Thalia, Meddling Mage, Freebooter), Vial in Bodyguard to protect key card in matchup
T1 Hierarch, T2 Bodyguard + 2 drop (if Hierarch sticks)
T1 Hierarch, opp removes Hierarch, T2 2 drop, T3 Bodyguard + 2 drop (for the hands where you don't have a 3 drop or Reflector Mage has no targets yet)
Clearly Bodyguard is a weak T1 play, but in a deck where all the 1 drops get weaker the later you play them I don't think having a 1 drop that's better after turn 1 is such a bad thing. I'd like to have a 1 drop I can play on T4 alongside my 3 drop and still get value from it. Personally I plan to try a list like patbou describes with Bodyguard as the 9th and 10th 1 drop and I'll see how it goes once DOM is released.
For now I think Kytheon vs Inspector vs 2 drops is largely a judgement call. I like Inspector over Kytheon against UWx due to their interactions w/ Path and Electrolyze as well as against aggressive decks where a 1/2 can be better than a 2/1, while Kytheon is better against combo as a clock and against midrange/control decks using black and/or red for their removal.
We are playing a deck with expendables creatures. If we want a good creature that is not, we play Mirran Crusader. Path ot Exile deals with it but Bodyguard is also inefficient against that card. I'm still waiting for a Human that doesn't lose to Path and/or Bolt, and Bodyguard ain't that card. Knight of Malice might be better VS PtE decks.
If I want an effect that protect my other Humans, I want a Selfless Spirit which saves the whole board. Or I want a Mother of Runes that can do its effect several times a game. Still waiting.
I think they printed a very fair version of Mom, probably strong in Standard, maybe good in a deck with a Geist of Saint Traft-like threat. If Bodyguard sees play in Humans, it won't fix the bad MUs, because it's not very good at what it does.