Does anyone have a ‘stock’ list of game 1 targets for meddling Mage?
I’m not overly familiar with the cards I should be naming. Appreciate I can do the research, but if someone has a list/link it would be really helpful.
Thanks for sharing the human sideboard guide.
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Does anyone have a ‘stock’ list of game 1 targets for meddling Mage?
I’m not overly familiar with the cards I should be naming. Appreciate I can do the research, but if someone has a list/link it would be really helpful.
Thanks for sharing the human sideboard guide.
I havent seen one; but it will depend heavily on your own gameplan, how much pressure you can push down, and whether you have seen their hand already.
I'd say that unlike Lantern with Pithing Needle; blind naming is less necessary. Generally you can make a guess based on what you have seen.
But some thoughts:
Tron Ugin; Oblivion Stone Grixis Shadow, Mardu Pyro: Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push Storm: Grapeshot Living End Decks: Living End; Cryptic Command (blue version) Affinity: Etched Champion, Galvanic Blast - can be really dependent upon what you have seen already Jeskai Control, UW Control: Path to Exile, Supreme Verdict, Bolt UR Breach: Blood Moon, Through the Breach Titanshift: Prime Time, Scapeshift
But again, so much of this depends; what mana have they left up? What have their play patterns shown you so far?
I'm running a standard list with Vial and I'm struggling to figure out what to do with Vial. It's horrendous in multiples, you really want to play it on turn 1 but if I keep a hand with both it and Noble playing Noble first feels absolutely correct, and then you're never going to play that Vial in your hand unless you have excess mana because you need to use the ramp from Noble to push ahead as quickly as possible. You can't keep hands with Vial and only Ziggurat, even if you also have Noble. You can't keep the vast majority of 2 vial hands because you're not gonna have enough real cards to work with. Hands with Vial but no one drop are also edge cases a lot of the time. I don't think t1 Vial -> t2 2-drop is fast enough a lot of the time, unless you're against something with a small number of creatures and that 2-drop is Thalia. This may be wrong though, but I'm very aggressive with my mulligans.
It's almost always my first cut in sideboard games no matter what matchup I'm against, I'm positive that's not correct but since the deck functions so well without it and the deck doesn't often have creatures that are truly dead (Reflector Mage against a list without creatures notwithstanding) I'd rather load up on bodies. I was talking with a friend about my hate/hate relationship with Vial and he pointed me to this Joel Larsson article from last month where he reaches the same conclusion. It's clunky and awkward at best that doesn't make my best starts better and the ceiling is that rare time placing Reflector Mage or Thalia's Lieutenant at instant speed blows a game open out of nowhere.
In a vacuum Vial is obviously a very powerful card, and the Vial build is still by far the most popular version of the deck, so maybe I'm just not evaluating this card or how this deck functions correctly. The deck might just be carrying me in spite of me fighting against what it's about.
edit: I have however dodged Blood Moon for the most part since I've picked up this list, through naming it with Meddling Mage or opponents failing to have it or dodging the decks entirely. I can see Vial being incredibly relevant against Moon lists.
Does anyone have a ‘stock’ list of game 1 targets for meddling Mage?
I’m not overly familiar with the cards I should be naming. Appreciate I can do the research, but if someone has a list/link it would be really helpful.
Thanks for sharing the human sideboard guide.
I havent seen one; but it will depend heavily on your own gameplan, how much pressure you can push down, and whether you have seen their hand already.
I'd say that unlike Lantern with Pithing Needle; blind naming is less necessary. Generally you can make a guess based on what you have seen.
But some thoughts:
TronUginKarn; Oblivion Stone Grixis Shadow, Mardu Pyro: Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push Storm: Grapeshot Empty the Warrens Living End Decks: Living End; Cryptic Command (blue version) Affinity: Etched Champion, Galvanic Blast - can be really dependent upon what you have seen already Jeskai Control, UW Control: Path to Exile, Supreme Verdict, Bolt UR Breach: Blood Moon, Through the Breach Titanshift: Prime Time, Scapeshift
But again, so much of this depends; what mana have they left up? What have their play patterns shown you so far?
Experience is key here. Play games against the decks to learn what you LOSE to, not what makes them win certain matches, exeptions are made for the usual suspects like storm and scapeshift.
Usually it's the earliest removal spell they can cast or the usual suspects in red/white/black. i.e. Bolt, Path, Push.
Going to be honest here, I don't fully understand why a bunch of pros have suddenly dived on a full playset of phantasmal image...
I get why the card can be good as a one or two-of, insofar as it has been reasonable in the past in merfolk.
I even have a couple myself and I've sleeved them up for testing.
But four!? Something's up there. The first deck with a decent finish running image was packing the full four and it was a spicy rogue choice from that player. What I expected to see was people acknowledge the card and adopt maybe one or two in the maindeck. What seems to have happened is that many players are just verbatim copying that guy's list with no changes :S. I don't get it I have to say.
I mean the card's OK but not playset worthy. I wish I could ask them in person why they made such a choice. Limited time to prepare, modern not really their thing and they needed a decent list for the tournament? Must be something like that, surely.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Nothing against netdecking, but i have a feeling there are not many true brewers out there. The ones that are, might not attend Tournaments or are hesistant to take something of their own.
I also don't see a lot of FNM/Tournament results being posted in this topic. Why is this?
On the topic of Phantasmal Image, I agree! But it's great when it's good, so I do get why people would run multiples.
I was on one in my very first modern Humans Brew (Deck Here) Abandoned blue alltogether, and it's back when in 5c.
I have the same problem with Ancient Ziggurat. I've cut one copy for an extra fetch to go with the Watery Grave and Temple Garden in my current build, but lately I've been tinkering with a different approach, courtecy of this post:
For the manabase, if we are cutting on Phantasmal Image, we could replace Seachrome Coast with Reflecting Pool. With 12 lands that can produce lands of any color (Cavern, Territory, Ziggurat), Reflecting Pool will most likely be a Mana Confluence with no downside most of the time. I think it's pretty safe to play 2 Reflecting Pool. The chances of drawing 2 and no other lands are pretty slim...
BTW, I'm still on Razorverge Thicket instead of Horizon Canopy (because $$$). How often do you sac it to draw a card? How painful is Horizon Canopy to your life total? Do you think 4 is really the right number for this deck? Or, if it's too painful, maybe go down to 3 and play Razorverge Thicket instead? I just want to be really sure before eventually buying a full playset (if I can get away with 3)...
I'm going to try something along these lines and tune from there:
You're right. Now 4 Images is a greedy choice that has no huge downside though. When you can't cast one during that game you'll lose, well it won't really make you change your opinion, you'll just accept that your mana is greedy to begin with.
There's also MU considerations. 4 Images can be the right number in certain MUs, while it's not in others. If you prepare for the MUs where you want 4, you're not making a mistake per se.
To me it's very comparable to Thalia. I personally play 3 copies of each, not 4. Am I just a random amateur player ? Sure.
When we'll get that new Human that is worth 4 slots, don't worry, Images will go down to 3, maybe 2. ^^
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I went on a mission to put this deck together today. As of this moment I am short 1 Noble Hierarch, 1 Cavern of Souls, and 2 Horizon Canopy. What should I put the most importance on and what can replace them for now? I was going off the lists from the recent SCGTour. If you look at the top 8 deck I have everything, but those 4 cards.
I went on a mission to put this deck together today. As of this moment I am short 1 Noble Hierarch, 1 Cavern of Souls, and 2 Horizon Canopy. What should I put the most importance on and what can replace them for now? I was going off the lists from the recent SCGTour. If you look at the top 8 deck I have everything, but those 4 cards.
Noble Hierarchs are replaced by Avacyn's Pilgrims for budget reasons usually. There is a significant difference in power level between the two cards, particularly if your list is truly 5 colours.
I assume you are running 4 Unclaimed Territory already, so your land base just needs tweaking with what you have available. Razorverge Thicket, the G/W fastland is one choice for the Horizon Canopies as it provides the same colours. For a Rainbow land replacement, maybe City of Brass/Mana Confluence? Just don't keep a one lander with City of Brass against Burn as I did at a GP (put that one down to first GP nerves :sweat:).
Replacements: Hierarch to Avacyn’s Pilgrim, Cavern to City of Brass, Canopy to Razorverge Thicket. [/quote]
I generally agree with this, especially if you use a flex slot for Dark Confidant.[/quote]
I do have a Dark Confidant for now. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/883647#paper That was the list I was currently going off of. Considering some small changes for my local meta, and will also try out some of the new humans in Rivals of Ixalan. Storm and Burn are both very popular decks in my meta. Considering jamming in an Auriok Champion or two.
I get why Mantis Riders is run; it impacts the battlefield the turn it enters. That being said, isn't the payoff of Hanweir Garrison worth the risk? IF it sticks, you pump Thalia's Lieutenant and Champion of the Parish, or you can pump the team with the formerly mentioned Lieutenant. It seems as though swinging once generates more value than Mantis Rider, even if Garrison itself is killed in combat or the turn after.
As a disclaimer, I do not play Humans. I'm a Bogles player who is reaping the benefits of the meta you guys created. Still, I'm glad to see Champion of the Parish finally getting the spotlight he deserves.
Human damage potential is often limited more by a lack of evasion than raw power. It's not hard to imagine Hanweir Garrison being outclassed on the battlefield by Tasigur etc, unable to attack safely and generate value. Conversely, Mantis Rider's flying is a big deal -- it's rarely outclassed in the air -- and the fact that it also has vigilance goes a long way toward making the Affinity matchup more manageable.
But it doesn't matter if Hanweir Garrison is outclassed. As I said, if you attack once, that's two bodies to pump with Lieutenant and Mayor, two counters on Champion and Lietenant, and two bodies to block affinity creatures. Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY get that Mantis Rider is better on the turn cycle you play it. In such a fast format, immediate value is king. Still, I would think that I would see SOMEONE brewing with it. It's just weird to me.
Oh yes I would, instead of the Ref Mages !
Evasion is the main issue with Humans as a somewhat aggro shell : Elves have Ezuri, Shaman of the Pack, Vizier combo, Merfolk has Islandwalk, Slivers has flying, and so on. Haste can somewhat overcome the lack of evasion (look at Burn creatures).
Another issue is tempo. If Combat Celebrant had Haste, I would run it too. The problem is you have to pair it with Lightning Mauler, which is situational and breakable.
I built a Naya Coco list that was close to what you could imagine, with insane turns, but it wasn't as good as Mantis builds because faster decks are still faster, and you lose to Affinity and Infect even more, which is a big deal in the format.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Exactly,
We need our humans to be Impactful the moment they are played or land, The new Warslail Marauder is a perfect example of this. I would run it, if it had haste and a UR casting cost OR had an ETB trigger next to the attack trigger.
Why? On their own, all humans exept for Anafenza, the Foremost die to every removal staple in the format. This is also why ETB/Cast > Haste.
I’m not overly familiar with the cards I should be naming. Appreciate I can do the research, but if someone has a list/link it would be really helpful.
Thanks for sharing the human sideboard guide.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
I havent seen one; but it will depend heavily on your own gameplan, how much pressure you can push down, and whether you have seen their hand already.
I'd say that unlike Lantern with Pithing Needle; blind naming is less necessary. Generally you can make a guess based on what you have seen.
But some thoughts:
Tron Ugin; Oblivion Stone
Grixis Shadow, Mardu Pyro: Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push
Storm: Grapeshot
Living End Decks: Living End; Cryptic Command (blue version)
Affinity: Etched Champion, Galvanic Blast - can be really dependent upon what you have seen already
Jeskai Control, UW Control: Path to Exile, Supreme Verdict, Bolt
UR Breach: Blood Moon, Through the Breach
Titanshift: Prime Time, Scapeshift
But again, so much of this depends; what mana have they left up? What have their play patterns shown you so far?
It's almost always my first cut in sideboard games no matter what matchup I'm against, I'm positive that's not correct but since the deck functions so well without it and the deck doesn't often have creatures that are truly dead (Reflector Mage against a list without creatures notwithstanding) I'd rather load up on bodies. I was talking with a friend about my hate/hate relationship with Vial and he pointed me to this Joel Larsson article from last month where he reaches the same conclusion. It's clunky and awkward at best that doesn't make my best starts better and the ceiling is that rare time placing Reflector Mage or Thalia's Lieutenant at instant speed blows a game open out of nowhere.
In a vacuum Vial is obviously a very powerful card, and the Vial build is still by far the most popular version of the deck, so maybe I'm just not evaluating this card or how this deck functions correctly. The deck might just be carrying me in spite of me fighting against what it's about.
edit: I have however dodged Blood Moon for the most part since I've picked up this list, through naming it with Meddling Mage or opponents failing to have it or dodging the decks entirely. I can see Vial being incredibly relevant against Moon lists.
Experience is key here. Play games against the decks to learn what you LOSE to, not what makes them win certain matches, exeptions are made for the usual suspects like storm and scapeshift.
Usually it's the earliest removal spell they can cast or the usual suspects in red/white/black. i.e. Bolt, Path, Push.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I get why the card can be good as a one or two-of, insofar as it has been reasonable in the past in merfolk.
I even have a couple myself and I've sleeved them up for testing.
But four!? Something's up there. The first deck with a decent finish running image was packing the full four and it was a spicy rogue choice from that player. What I expected to see was people acknowledge the card and adopt maybe one or two in the maindeck. What seems to have happened is that many players are just verbatim copying that guy's list with no changes :S. I don't get it I have to say.
I mean the card's OK but not playset worthy. I wish I could ask them in person why they made such a choice. Limited time to prepare, modern not really their thing and they needed a decent list for the tournament? Must be something like that, surely.
I also don't see a lot of FNM/Tournament results being posted in this topic. Why is this?
On the topic of Phantasmal Image, I agree! But it's great when it's good, so I do get why people would run multiples.
I was on one in my very first modern Humans Brew (Deck Here) Abandoned blue alltogether, and it's back when in 5c.
I have the same problem with Ancient Ziggurat. I've cut one copy for an extra fetch to go with the Watery Grave and Temple Garden in my current build, but lately I've been tinkering with a different approach, courtecy of this post:
I'm going to try something along these lines and tune from there:
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Ancient ziggurat
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Plains
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
There's also MU considerations. 4 Images can be the right number in certain MUs, while it's not in others. If you prepare for the MUs where you want 4, you're not making a mistake per se.
To me it's very comparable to Thalia. I personally play 3 copies of each, not 4. Am I just a random amateur player ? Sure.
When we'll get that new Human that is worth 4 slots, don't worry, Images will go down to 3, maybe 2. ^^
Noble Hierarchs are replaced by Avacyn's Pilgrims for budget reasons usually. There is a significant difference in power level between the two cards, particularly if your list is truly 5 colours.
I assume you are running 4 Unclaimed Territory already, so your land base just needs tweaking with what you have available. Razorverge Thicket, the G/W fastland is one choice for the Horizon Canopies as it provides the same colours. For a Rainbow land replacement, maybe City of Brass/Mana Confluence? Just don't keep a one lander with City of Brass against Burn as I did at a GP (put that one down to first GP nerves :sweat:).
Replacements: Hierarch to Avacyn’s Pilgrim, Cavern to City of Brass, Canopy to Razorverge Thicket.
I generally agree with this, especially if you use a flex slot for Dark Confidant.
I generally agree with this, especially if you use a flex slot for Dark Confidant.[/quote]
I do have a Dark Confidant for now. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/883647#paper That was the list I was currently going off of. Considering some small changes for my local meta, and will also try out some of the new humans in Rivals of Ixalan. Storm and Burn are both very popular decks in my meta. Considering jamming in an Auriok Champion or two.
As a disclaimer, I do not play Humans. I'm a Bogles player who is reaping the benefits of the meta you guys created. Still, I'm glad to see Champion of the Parish finally getting the spotlight he deserves.
Would people run four Garrisons if it had haste?
Oh yes I would, instead of the Ref Mages !
Evasion is the main issue with Humans as a somewhat aggro shell : Elves have Ezuri, Shaman of the Pack, Vizier combo, Merfolk has Islandwalk, Slivers has flying, and so on. Haste can somewhat overcome the lack of evasion (look at Burn creatures).
Another issue is tempo. If Combat Celebrant had Haste, I would run it too. The problem is you have to pair it with Lightning Mauler, which is situational and breakable.
I built a Naya Coco list that was close to what you could imagine, with insane turns, but it wasn't as good as Mantis builds because faster decks are still faster, and you lose to Affinity and Infect even more, which is a big deal in the format.
We need our humans to be Impactful the moment they are played or land, The new Warslail Marauder is a perfect example of this. I would run it, if it had haste and a UR casting cost OR had an ETB trigger next to the attack trigger.
Why? On their own, all humans exept for Anafenza, the Foremost die to every removal staple in the format. This is also why ETB/Cast > Haste.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Here's mine too if you have any insight.
I only own 2 Caverns so I added a few Fetches and Tireless Tracker
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/5c-humans-company-1/
I don't know how thrilled I am with not having small Thalia. She's pretty important in the disruption plan, even if you are playing CoCo and Path.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles